Unpacking Toxic Masculinity

Published Feb 20, 2019, 8:00 AM
In this week's episode we're unpacking toxic masculinity. For this conversation, I was joined by Dr. Alduan Tartt, Licensed Psychologist. Dr. Tartt and I discussed what is meant by the term toxic masculinity,  how it shows up in our lives, and how we can stop perpetuating it, especially in raising our sons. 

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Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist, visit our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. And while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session nine of the Therapy for Black Girls podcasts. In the past few months, there has been lots of talk about toxic masculinity, and I think it's important to recognize that men are the only ones who buy into this system. There's a lot for all of us to unpack to make sure we're doing our part to break down a system that is often limiting and dangerous. What kinds of ways do we need to kind of reframe our thoughts about parenting to make sure that we are raising a healthier generation of boys, Like, Yeah, you know, I think first it's called emotion coaching. We have to teach our boys how to express emotion. But before we jump into today's conversation, I want to share some information with you about our incredible sponsor for today's episode. Support for this episode of the podcast comes from natural is Sious. Natural is Sious is the world's first vegan, high performance hair care line that delivers the results of twelve products and only three. It is designed to reduce time spent on hair care and it is proven to save up to eighty percent of time on wash day. We all know how great that would be. Natural is Sious was founded by innovator and Jamir, who is the first and only African American woman to hold a pattern on a natural hair care product. 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And I kid you not, the comb was just gliding through my hair with very little manipulation. I was able to finish my twist in like thirty minutes, which is unheard of for me. This is truly a miracle product for me, y'all, and if you want to cut down on the amount of products you use and get some time back in your busy schedule, then I would definitely recommend you try it. You can find the Naturalicious products in over twelve hundred Sally stores nationwide, or you can buy them online at Save time on wash day dot com. Now, let's get back to our conversation. For this conversation unpacking toxic masculinity, I was joined by Dr Aldawan Tart. Doctor Tart is a psychologist, minister, husband and father of two girls who has twenty years of experience and empowering moms to raise boys into strong men. Dr Tart also specializes in working with couples to have stronger marriages and develop healthy family cultures. He currently consults with the NBA, CNN, h L, d N and appears frequently on Ricky Smiley Radio as the resident psychology expert around relationships and family. Dr Tart and I discussed what is meant by the term toxic masculinity, how it shows up in our lives, and how we can stop perpetuating it, especially in raising our sons. If you hear something that really resonates with you while listening, please be sure to share it with us on social media using the hashtag TBG in session, and don't forget to share your takeaways from the episode with us in your I G stories are on Twitter. Here's our conversation. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Dr Tart, Hey, I appreciate Dr Joe. You know, I've and I've been begging for this for a long time, even Destiny, So I'm excited. I was playing about about the begging car. You know that I hit you up. I cain't looking for you. Well, No, I'm honored to have you here because I feel like you were one of the first psychologists I saw doing therapy differently, you know, giving psychologists a space to kind of be in the media and you know, talking to people even outside of the office. So I'm just thinkful that you kind of set this path for us. Yeah, and I'm glad that you upgraded it. We all have our work to do, right, That's right, That's right. I appreciate it. Yeah, So I'm happy that you're here to chat with us today. I know a lot of your work is with moms, helping moms and families raised boys, and so there has been a lot of conversation, particularly in the media, around like masculinity and this whole idea of toxic masculinity. The APIA recently came out with guidelines for treating men and boys. Then we saw this Gillette commercial that talked about you know, is this the best of man? Can really be. So I'm curious just to hear your thoughts about why this has become such a hot topic right now. I mean, I think we saw it open up with Pastor John Gray when he talked about, you know, expectations he had of his wife to kind of raise him. That's the first time I saw it really being you know, opened up, you know, the last couple of months about you know, what a woman's role is as far as being a male. I think that was the first thing. And then you know the R Kelly of the r Kelly scandal, Charlemagne, the guy coming out talking about the fact that he has opened about having an anxiety disorder. I think all three of those conversations kind of laid the framework for us to be able to talk about what is manhood, what is healthy versus what is unhealthy? Got it? And so you know the term that has kind of been thrown around a lot too, is this whole idea of toxic masculinity right any more? About what that is? What do people mean when they use that term, Well, when you identify with the parts of being a man and it actually hurts people, So your masculinity actually hurts other people. So we when we look at most of the homicides I believe I read close those are done by men. If we're in a relationship and I don't believe that it's manly to express my emotions while being an emotional relationship with my wife, that's toxic masculinity because the things that limit me as a man now limit the relationship. You know, If I believe that it's not manly enough for me to allow my wife to to take the lead, even though she's more talented, and I oppress her, our attempt to oppress her in our relationship are in business, that is toxic masculinity. It's where your masculinity becomes something that actually hurts other people. And so what are some of the characteristics of that What are some of the qualities you think of masculinity that that can be toxic? Oh, my goodness, I can give you a whole laundry list, all right. So one, men don't show pain. That basically means we're a lamp. Oh, we're a couch. We have we have no feelings. But when we teach our sons, hey don't show any pain, you know, don't cry, you know, after the death of someone we love, or after being disappointed. I mean that basically says stop stop being human. I think that is toxic. An example of toxic masculinity. Another example of toxic masculinity is where a male feels like, just by privilege, he should be the leader. So he doesn't look and see who's the most talented in the work group. He just feels that by his natural right of being a male, and he showing us to society that he should be the leader. That actually is a bad decision making process because you're not looking at talent and what's best for the business. You're just looking at who's male versus female. That is oppressive, and it's also bad business because you're squelching your talent because we know some talent is gonna be males, and talent is gonna be female. It's gonna be diverse. Talent is talent. Think. Another example of toxic masculinity is where you feel it's not it's not manly for you to go to counseling. That's a big one. I know you deal with that. It's not manly for you to admit that you need wise counsel when it comes to your marriage, your relationship, dealing with stress, dealing with anxiety, dealing with anger. That is another idea of toxic masculinity, because typically that man is attached to some type of family or some type of group. And if you don't deal with your stuff, then you put your stuff on the people you say you care about and love. So all of this is making perfect sense. Of course, when you say, a doctor tard like it sounds like why would anybody fight against all of the things that you just said? Well, what do you think is the disconnect for people? Like what what do you feel like people are still holding onto when they want to hold onto these traditional ideas about masculinity. I mean, you know, Dr Jorge, that's a great question. I think one is what a man is, and so it's it's holding onto toxic tradition. So men don't go to counseling. My granddaddy never went to counseling. Never mind, you're grand that he drank himself to death. You see what I'm saying, went through three or four marriages. So I think a lot of it is tradition. And then I think that we just are resistant to change, We don't like change, and think about and think about what that means. You know for a man that I have to redefine manhood, which means that the things that I thought were central and agreed upon as a man, I now see as a weakness. So my refusal to go to counseling is now a weakness. My refusal to let another person guide me financially to get a financial plan of versus me having pride said I'm going to figure it out. That is hurting me. My refusal to connect emotionally with my children versus just providing. Now you see how that makes me have to downgrade myself. A lot of men that felt like, hey, I'm a manly man. I'm an alpha male. You know I trust no woman. I know I don't have feelings that way. I can never be hurt. You know, it makes you change your schema, It makes you change man. Who am I really? And so I think that is the resistance that we just don't like to change. But here's the real thing. If you're not changing and making adjustments, you are no longer deemed the strongest male possible. And a great example for me, and i'd love to get your thoughts is former President Barack Obama. You know when people see him, they see him as an alpha male, as a leader, but they also see him as compassionate. They see him as a faithful husband, they see him as a compassionate father, They see him as someone who is manly and enough to cry when there's been a school shooting. At the same time, they respect his power. And so if we don't evolve into a man that is able to meet the needs of his family, being tune with his emotions, be able to to have more emotions than just anger, than we are going to be left behind and we were gonna be deemed a weaker male. That's a great point, Dr Tory, and I appreciate that. So I hadn't even thought about the whole John Gray conversation when we started talking, but I'm glad you brought that up, because I do think that was an important kind of zeitgeist moment that has happened recently. I mean talking about like a woman's responsibility of raising so to speak, her partner. And I would love to hear your thoughts about that, because I know you also have the faith background, and so I think that could add it interesting like piece of this conversation, like your thoughts about what that means and what that looks like in relationships. Yeah, well we now know based on his recent revelations that was kind a loaded situation of him trying to, you know, celebrate his wife and also kind of a mini confession. I think when we look at it, husband and wife, even if you're dating, I do think you have to have the michael Angelo effect. That was in psychology today this month about having the michael Angelo fact are phenomena on your partner, which basically means that you make each other more beautiful. So because I'm your husband, you make me more beautiful. Because I'm your husband, I make you more beautiful. We come together to make each other better people. I think that's the goal of relationships. Where I think a lot of women took offense, and quite naturally so justified, was that it's not a woman's job to raise her man. It's her job to support her man, correct her man, encourage her man, but not to raise him, because what does she get out of that? So I'm raising you, what do I get? You know what I mean? So I think that there's kind of expectation in the African American culture sometimes that we expect our wives to also be our mother's especially if we didn't have that strong maternal bond and we had some type of trauma. And I think that women are kind of just fed up with being short changed in relationships, you know. So I think that as men, we have to evolve, we have to grow, We have to seek out male mentors. I have a mentor, Dr Joy, I can give zero percent advice to all Right, Yeah, he's so much smarter than I am, and I just enjoy being able to learn from him about how to have a strong godly marriage, how to keep your children because we both have daughters from having sex, How do you get them to want to be abstinent without it being forced? How do you grow financially without sacrifice and quality time with your family? I mean those are the kind of questions I can sit down and talk with him about. And so I think as men, we don't need to depend upon, you know, our our girlfriends, our fiances, our wives to raise us. Men need to seek other men. We need to be proactive in seeking male mentors to make sure that we are growing and developing so that we can lead in our marriage. And I don't mean lead from an oppressive standpoint. I mean lead as far as doing the things that we're called to do as husband and fathers. Got you so, like I said, I know you do a lot of work with like parents, and so toxic masculinity isn't I think something that only men buy into, Like I think because we live in a patriarchical society, you know, like you mentioned chauvinistic, Like, there are lots I think that we have fed into even as women and kind of continuing to perpetuate this cycle. And I think a lot of it starts with parenting, right, And so when we're talking about parenting boys, what kinds of things do we need to be paying attention to, what kind of ways that we need to kind of reframe our thoughts about parenting to make sure that we are raising a healthier generation of boys, Like, yeah, you know, I think first it's called emotion coaching. We have to teach our boys how to express emotion. We have to show them how you have. I feel frustrated, I feel sad, I feel insecure, I feel overwhelmed, I feel anxious, I feel unmotivated. If we can give our boys the language of emotion, we are doing them a huge favor because we're helping them to be better communicators in their romantic lives. We're helping them to be better communicators when it comes to leaderships. That's the first thing is that we have to teach our boys how to communicate in the language of emotion. Number two, we have to teach our sons how to define themselves outside of their sexuality, you know, and so that starts early on. Your definition of who you are has to be based upon your competencies, some of your likes, some of the things that you feel, not just sexuality. And so if we don't tell our boys that, and you know, kind of aligns to what we're talking about before, then they begin to learn toxic masculinity from hip hop, from images in the media. And so they say, well, since I was never taught how to define myself, then I'm going to follow what I see appears popular in the media. And so I think that's those two things are very important and raising suns. In addition to, you know, one more thing is walking the fine line between providing appropriate structure for our sons but also allowing them to be independent of us, and that means be able to figure some things out on their own, be able to struggle on their own, be able to be resourceful and resilient and gritty. All those things you would want in a hush has been all those things you would want in a father is allowing them to do that without fixing it for them. And that's that. It pertains to both moms and dad's. So what do you think happens after? Because this reminds me of the old kind of saying. But I don't know if this is a universal saying or if this is something kind of in the black community, the idea of raising your daughters but kind of coddling your sons. Oh man, So what do you where do you think that comes from? It's just the saying. It's just the saying. And you know the power of words like Trump, he was a huge and being. He just that on purpose to convey how big he is to intimidate others. We say in church, the Lord won't put more on you than you can bear. Yes he will. We just say it. How do you feel blessed and holly favor? You don't always feel blessed and holly favorite. We just say that. So I think they're these sayings, and we take these sayings and we make them law when we know from the psychology is that we follow our rules, but some of the rules we make don't make sense. And so when we start talking about we raise our daughters, but we coddle our sons, why would we do that? First of all, why would we coddle our sons. That's not complementary. That means we baby our sons. That means we prepare our sons to be perpetual babies. We prepare our sons to be treated differently than their female counterparts. We raise our daughters, but then we don't prepare our sons to be leaders. That makes no sense to me, you know. So I think that's one of the things that when it comes to redefining uh, you know, manhood and culture and parenting, that we have to do a better job as psychologists and do a better job in the media showing people how it is really done. And I think that that is best done in my opinion. You know, in the media, what we see is what will be. And so if we can show characters that have of different multiple maculinity ees, they can be tough and defend their family, and they also can sit down and have a tea party with their five year old daughter, I think so many men need to see that so that they have an image, an ideal to live up to that allows them to embrace multiple parts of their masculinity. So, you know, something else I think that complicates this issue dr toward is, of course, you know, all of the things that we see in the media in terms of you know, these black children on both boys and girls, but it does seem like it's more boys, you know, either being killed by police officers or rogued neighborhood watch people. And so I feel like some of that also feeds into this idea of like really wanting to be super protective of boys, and so some of it comes, I think from a good place, but but like you said, can sometimes go too far where we are kind of doing them more harm than good. Yeah, it's it's a fine line. I think that's a fine and I think it's that natural balance. You don't want to go so far as to not be in tune with your child's emotions, you know, So you want to definitely be in tune with where your son's emotions are. It is okay for him to feel dejected, to feel like he doesn't measure up. That's that's normal human emotion. At the same time with me being a man, I know in my family, I'm looked too as the lead. I have to protect the house, I have to make sure that my wife is taken care of. I have to make sure that both my daughters are taken care of. I can't look to my wife to lead my family. Not at the same time. You know, since a girl is bad, I mean she is a phenomenal woman, there areas in which he's far superior. And I passed the baton, you know, and I play background like she's glad at night. I'm the pips. So but but just when men are in a room, you know, we have to look in the mirror and said, I have to make it happen for my family. I have to make it. And so we have to teach our boys how to be resilient, how to be dependent upon God, how to rely on others, how to admit when you're stressed out, how to go get wise counsel, how to express your emotions and compromise. All those soft skills are needed. We have to show them how to lead and be vulnerable and be strong at the same time. So I think all of that is great, Dr Hart, But I also am aware that you know, a lot of us as adults have not even developed these skills, right, and so it will be hard I think to kind of model that and teach that to children if we have not learned that for ourselves. I mean, it's a tough lesson. It's a tough lesson. I mean. One of the things that I'm doing two thousand and nineteen is for the first time, I am building a team. I have done so many things by myself because you know, you farm it out, trust other people, and kind of one of the I think bad habits we have because we deem ourselves to be intelligent, is that people don't do it to our standards. We feel like we need to go do it ourselves, you know, versus just allowing people to grow and finding the right fit. So, you know, as a man, I said, look, I can't be effective. I can't be efficient. I can't be present at home if I'm trying to grow from a business standpoint and I'm working from sun of the sundown. So right, you have to practice what you preach. You have to teach delegation, you have to teach that listen. But no amount of business success is worth personal failure at home. And if I believe that that means that I'm present, I'm able to build a team, I'm able to work through my own trust issues, my own past hurts with trusting people with things and managing my brand, and you know how it goes. I have to get over that because I have to find the right formula so that my daughters don't look at me and say I was never there, regardless of what was going on. I was always present in their life as well as the life of my wife. So I know. Also in your work, DOCTORR. Tart, you talk a lot about maverick moms. Um, so what are some descriptors of these maverick moms and what can we learn from them? Yeah, you know, a lot of times they say, you know what you mean, a man, It takes a man to show a man how to be a man. And I'm a man disagreeing with that. It's just not true. Now, do you need some male influence? You do, But there are a number of maverick moms that have raised some of the strongest men in history. We can start with former President Barack Obama. We can go with Les Brown, who was raised by his grandma. We can look at Lebron James, Kevin Durant, you can look at Tyler Perry. When you start looking at some of these men that we really really respect, a former President Bill Clinton, they are a record that their moms played a predominant role in their life. Add me to that mix. My father mom isd have been married forever. But when we talk about having the dominant influence on me early in my life, it was it was my mom. My mom was the trailblazer. My mom was the one that took risk. My mom was the one that started new schools and old schools were failing. And I identified what her personality. As I get older, I identify, uh, you know, if my dad would being able to you know, keep my mom calm. You know, I've had to develop that as a skills I get as I get older. And I just think that it's important that as as men, we just you know, continue to redefine, you know, who we are involved. So, Maverick, moms are the moms that you're talking about that can really, you know, still teach a boy how to be successful and healthy, even though there may not be a man in the home. Still with male influence. Yeah, So when we look at schools. I mean you look at principles. I mean kids respect the strongest principle, the one that's fair and firm, has nothing to do with gender. You can put a mail in that role, but if they don't respect that male, they don't trump over him. You know, they expect if they respect the principle, and she happens to be a woman, they're gonna respect her because she demands respect. And so when we start talking about the research, when it comes to Maverick moms, you know, it's not it's not having the presence of a male in the home. It's whether he respects his mom is a discipinarian but also feels emotionally connected. And that's why you see so many successful men. And I want, I want women are listening right now, the moms that are listening right now to understand that your impact on your son is phenomenal. Don't say I can't show him how to be a man. You absolutely can. You can be in charge of it. You can take him to the men's cloth here and allow them to show him how to tie a tie. You can teach your son directly how to be assertive. You can teach your son directly, how to have work ethic. You can teach your son directly, how to pray over his future wife. There's so many things that you can teach your son. We go a little bit too far with was saying with Dad's not there that we are ill equipped or you're ill equipped as a mom to raise your son into a powerful young man. Great information. Dr Tytt. You talked a little bit about the media. Do you think that there are any like TV shows or music, like are there things that you feel like are setting good examples about like healthy masculinity that you point to often? Yeah? I think I think. So. There was a show No one saw this because this was in a study. It was called Soul City. It aired in Africa, and and the goal was they wanted to change the community's view on domestic violence, because there's a culture uh in certain parts of Africa that if you see domestic violence, you don't mention it, you don't getting other people's business, even if you see oppression and danger and domestic violence. So they took this figure and then and and he was super mancho But then they introduced intentionally his family and made you start liking his children, like his wife and then there was a scene where he actually was physical with his wife and the next door neighbors came by and started beating on pots and pants to express disapproval. And they did that intentionally. This was a funded actual show because they wanted to see if they could change public views on rules like don't getting other people's business even though you see a woman being hurt and it's it's affecting the family. And it worked. They found more men calling the domestic violence hotline because they had identified with the supernational and male and then identified with his wife and then found somewhere in the middle of the show, Dr Joy that that man is me and that I now see that he is hurting his wife, he is hurting his children. So the media, I believe, I believe should be on the forefront of that initiative. So I think that that Soul City has positively done that. Another one is I saw red Table talk. Have you seen that with Willy on Jada Pinkett show, because it's her and he talked about not knowing how to communicate with her and he said, listen, I don't want to be my dad. I don't want to put hands on you, and you cursed me, and I hate you with the towel that made me feel uncomfortable. So let's go to communication classes because I don't know how to communicate with you when I'm upset. All I know how to do is get mad and shut down. And I think that Will Smith being open and frank about that was a great example of Hey, it's okay not to know what you're doing in a relationship, but it's not okay you're not to go figure it out. Another example, the NBA launched the campaign where they had a number of athletes come out and talk about mental mental illness dealing with it. Shane Larkin came out, talked about dealing with obsessive compulsive disorder, The Morris Twins came out, talked about PTSD, Kevin Love came out and talked about anxiety. Paul Pierce, Mr Celtic came out and talked about having a panic attack after being stabbed. And so these very very manly men who we really respect coming out and talking about, hey, I had to go get help. I think that that it sets a great example for us, and as men, gives us permission to be manly and still seek help. Those sound great bat tried. I hadn't seen all of those that I definitely will look those up now. But yeah, they're being they're being intentional. You know. Like one of my contracts each year is I work with one six And this is good for the public to know, is that the NBA brings in psychologists like myself, usually as a team of five or six to work with the NBA rookies uh doing what's called Rookie Transition Program, And our goal is to get them to open up about their anxieties, open up about their fears, talk to them about being head of household financially insecurities about you know, playing against Lebron James, you know what it means to move away from your family, all those things, so that they can get used to communicating their feelings because they know what they don't talk about is going to hurt the athletes, the team, and on financial standpoint. To be honest, the brand of the NBA. When you have athletes in fighting, drinking, smoking, domestic violence, they're trying to avoid that and so they are ushering and guiding and promoting healthy mental health, healthy mental health. So every every team has someone like me. I used to do it for the thunder someone like me that they have to talk to a doctor. Joy. A lot of them are women because they're very receptive to women because they're used to their moms, and so a lot of teams have female psychologists who work with their players to help them to deal with the stress of NBA life. Oh well, that's good to know. So, and that's that's NFL teams as well. NFL is not I'm biased because of course I work for the NBA. NFL is getting there, but the NBA has long said that then the gold standard when it comes to we need to make sure that we have our players both from the G League, the NBA and the w n b A. We want to make sure that we have our players talking to someone about their feelings. We want to care about the whole player, the whole person, not just the player. Got you, so, do you have any other favorite resources that you find yourself frequently recommending? Any books and stuff that you share a lot. But regarding I'm an avid book readers, regard to which subjects mostly about like masculinity and raising boys. There's a book called Maverick Moms. That's where I got the turn from. And they profiled Barack Obama's mom and other moms that were able to raise, you know, their sons and very challenging circumstances. So I would look into a book called you Know Maverick Maverick Mom. It's probably the top recommendation that I would have when it comes to that. And where can people find you online? Dr Tart? What is your website as well as any social media handles you want to share? Okay, okay, I'll give them to you all, you know, because I believe that we you know, Dr Joe, We've allowed life coaches, We've allowed pastors, We've allowed, you know, so many different motivational speakers to kind of get into the lane of doing therapy. And while I have a life coach, she is phenomenal. I listened to motivational speakers. A lot of them are my my friends, and they have taught me how to speak better. But I think as psychologists we have to become front and center in the media, even though we're very uncomfortable with because we were trained just opposite, so that we can fit into our lane and help people with actual therapy. So you can get free relationship tips, marriage tips, parting tips simply by texting me texting tart. That's t A r t T. Again, that's t a r t T to the following number, which is two to eight to eight, and that's texting tart to two to eight to eight. You can also follow me on Instagram at doctor chart. That's at d r t a r t T. Same handle on Twitter, same handle on LinkedIn Facebook. Find me a dr Aldawan Tart. My first name is spelled A L d U a N. Last named Tart t A r t T. I love to connect with you any way we can make it happen, as well as YouTube, and of course we will share all of that in the show notes so that everybody can find that easily. Definitely, definitely, you know. In another resource I thought about, it's a book called The Fight of Your Life. I do believe that we're on the if it's not a crisis state right now with men and unhealthy sexuality. There's a book out called The Fight of Your Life that helps men out and helps teenage boys out with dealing with pornography and unhealthy sexuality. It gives them become a template. It's it's a book that aligns scripture with actual application for how you have healthy sexuality. I think that as a resource and a tool we need to equip all of our sons, brothers, fathers, cousins with so that we can have better relationships. Definitely sounds good. Well, thank you so much for taking some time out of your day, Doctor Hard to chat with us. I appreciate it. Any time, any time. Thank you. I'm so thankful Dr Tart was able to share his expertise with us today. To find out more information about his practice, or to check out the resources that he shared, visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session, and don't forget to show some support for our sponsor for today's episode, Naturalisious. It's the world's first vegan high performance hair CareLine that delivers the results of twelve products in only three You can find the products and over twelve hundred Sally stores nationwide or online at save time on washed aid dot com. Remember that if you're searching for a therapist in your area, check out our direct three at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory, and be sure to visit our online store at Therapy for Black Girls dot Com slash shout, where you can find our Guided Affirmation Track, break Up Journal, and your Therapy for Black Girls sweatshirts and T shirts. Thank you'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take it cares art often,

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