The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
In this week's episode, I am joined by Shelly Ware, LMFT to dig into life as a stepparent. Shelly and I chatted about some of the common challenges that may come up when dating someone with children, some common misconceptions about stepfamilies, how to engage with the kids, and she shared her favorite resources about stepfamilies.
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Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for such an one fourteen of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. A few weeks ago, Dr Rdrey Townsil joined us to talk about co parenting and we got lots of follow up questions about being a stepparent or dating someone with children. So in today's episode, we'll be diving into all of this. For this conversation, I was joined by Shelley Ware. Shelley is a licensed marriage and family therapist as well as a step family coach with a private practice in the state of California. Shelley sees clients both in person and online. She specializes in working with step parents, as well as millennial and Gen X women of color experiencing stress in their relationships or careers. Shelley has ten years of experience working with families and has training in parent child interactive therapy. She's also a contributing writer to step Mom Magazine and online magazine dedicated to helping step moms both married and cohabitating navigate the challenges of step parenting and recoupling. Shelley and I chatted about some of the common challenges that may come up when dating someone with children, some common misconceptions about step families, how to engage with the kids, and she shared her favorite resources about step families. If you hear anything while listening that really resonates with you, please be sure to share with us on social media using the hashtag tv G in Session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining me today, Shelly. Thank you for having me, Dr Joy, I really appreciate, you know, this opportunity to come on and talk about something I'm extremely passionate about. Thank you. Yes, So, we had a recent episode all about co parenting with Dr Audrey Townsel, and of course I always love when we get lots of conversation and questions after the episodes, because that means that that there's of course more for us to talk with and talk about. And so, you know a lot of the questions that we had afterwards were from the other perspective of what if I'm dating somebody who has kids and you know, how do you enter into this kind of a situation people having loss of anxiety about what all of that means. And so this is your area of expertise, right dealing with step families, and you know, how do you kind of work to kind of bring that whole system together. So I'm excited to have you here to share your expertise with us about that. So I want to start just by kind of talking, you know, directly to some of the people who have concerns about maybe dating somebody with children. What do you think some of those common concerns are, like what makes that, you know, makes people have so much trepidation about that. I would say that there are a few things that come top of mind what I'm working with families or with just step parents in particular, and I would say the top ones are definitely the former partner or the ex the other one would be parenting and discipline, like how much to do, how much you shouldn't do regarding your stepchild or potential stepchild. Another one would be you know, not fit well once you're into the relationship, I should say. Another one is not having the relationship prioritized because sometimes what happens in step families because it's out of a you know, a loss and the partner that you're dating is either a single parent, they're either divorced, or they are a widow, and so your introduction to them and to this family is starts with the loss of a parent or either a relationship that didn't work out. And so because of that, would parents sometimes do the biological parents of your stepchild or potential stepchild well parents sometime out of guilt, and so what happens is there is a lot of boundaries that gets crossed sometime in an effort you don't know, soothe the child's wounds and to help them adjust to this new change. That you know, their mom or dad is no longer in this particular relationship and that they've moved on as far as relationship, but that they will always be your parents. So because of that, sometimes a step family or a step couple can get into a rut of having what I call like a child centered relationship, which can be really stressful on both the couple and the family because it does need to be prioritized because if you're coming together to create a family, you want the couple union to be strong as well. And so I would say those are the top things. Other things that come up are things like loyalty binds or outside or syndrome which to touch on. Those loyalty binds would be something that a step child experiences, and so it's really up to the other parents or you're not dating, and they have a lot of control and power to have the relationship come together with ease with a stepparent, or they can make it really difficult. And so a loyalty bond would look like a child feeling like, Okay, I love my mom, my biological mom, of course, but here's this other person who's step mom or step girlfriend or whomever. And then there is a kind of almost competition I would say, to our mom each other sometimes. But you have to be really careful about that because you know, if the child has an involved mother or an involved father, you don't want to step on any toes. You definitely want to not insist that your stepchild call you mom or dad. You want to have a conversation about what they're comfortable with as well as what you're comfortable with. And so a loyalty bund is more like the child feeling like maybe there's not enough love to go around, or maybe I'm not allowed to like this new person, and so they feel in conflict of whether they should even feel close to you and or whether they should back off and if they should kind of side with their biological parents when you're not dating in their view of um, the step parents. So those are some things that come up, as well as money, you know, child support or versus lack of child support. So quite a bit comes up. Yeah, Shelley, you've already given us quite a lot to us and to go through. But and I'm really glad that you started off. I think it is really important to think about the fact that these new relationships do start off with a loss, like you mentioned, right, and so you know, we know as a society sometimes we just don't do a really good job of like managing grief and really talking about loss and the impact that loss can have. But when you're thinking about the fact that there has been a significant at laws now, particularly for this child and even for the other partner, you do have to be very careful, I think in managing you know, the creation of this new potential family unit. Yeah, definitely, you have to tread carefully and very lightly. And I think sometimes in the case of bereavement particularly, there's a misconception that because a person you're in a relationship maybe a widow, that is somehow easier. But it's not because you know, sometime when a person passes, they are idealized, so to speak, and so it's difficult to come in because, like you said, the child and the person you're in relationship is grieving the loss of someone who meant a lot to them. There was no breakup, there was no divorce, and so it takes a lot for both the step children and for the partner to you know, open up their heart and to be willing to try again. And the other piece about breakups or divorce is sometimes children are afraid to get close to a new person because they may associate. Okay, when adults get together, it doesn't last. And so I encourage a lot of families to move slowly and to give you know, everyone an opportunity, because it's really common for single, divorced or widow parents to meet someone they click, they're good with the fact that they have children, and there's this excitement like, Okay, I found someone, we can go to the next step. And sometime they find they are the only two people who are excited, you know, their former partners not excited. The children are not excited, And it just takes you know, some understanding and to slow down to catch up to everyone else's takes, because not everyone is as happy about this new union as the two people involved are always are, right of course, of course, so I want to also go back to this whole idea of boundaries, right, like the idea that you know, sometimes the parent who is starting this new relationship maybe parenting out of a place of guilt, right, So what might that look like like? What might that dynamic look like for somebody who's parenting from a place of gut. That's a really great question, and this comes up quite a bit in my practice, and so I noticed some things that come up. This can of course happen with from mother to daughter and from father to son. But I've found it particularly interesting. I don't know, there's a lot of research on it, but this is just my, you know, anecdotal observation that there is seems to be a lot more strained and the boundaries seem to get blurred when it's a mom towards her son and a father towards his daughter. And so in the step community, I don't necessarily like the term, but sometime when it's father to daughter, there's like a slang sometimes that they use, such as like a mini wife because sometime Dad, he's lonely and either because of a breakup or widow situation. And sometime this also happens, like I said, with mother to son. So the parent is either grieving or they're lonely, and they're going through this stage of adjustment. And so they went from this house that is, you know, full of all of these people coming together, the parents, the kids running through the house that you know, everything is about family. And then that period after a breakup or a divorce, everything is really silent and the household is really quiet, and it takes a lot of adjusting. And so children pick up on the fact that their parents are sad, and so sometimes they will approach their parents or what's wrong, and instead of the parents saying, oh, I'm just a little sad, sometimes they will open up the floodgate, so to speak, and kind of confide in their own child, which is, you know, sometimes that's okay. It's it's fine, of course for a child to see their parents cry or to feel sad, because we also want to model, you know, a range of emotions for our children. But you have to be really careful of not saying too much, especially in the case of single parenting or divorce, because there's a breakup involved and you want to kind of separate your feelings from what you're kind of projecting onto the child. So the child may walk up to you and say Dad did such and such, and it may be tempting to say, yeah, I remember what he used to do that with me, And so you have to really, you know, restrain yourself and exercise you know, like emotional discipline, because it can get really difficult when you're in that space of grieving and you want to be close to someone and your child is right there. So what happens is that's how the boundaries get crossed, and it is the emotional boundary that gets blurred where you know, sometimes parents are talking to their children about things that can be kind of left off the table in regard to who they're dating or the former partner who was you know, once their partner, or their mom or dead. And so that's what it would look like the guilty piece. Parenting out of guilt, I would say, it looks like if the parent that you're dating is the non custodial parent, meaning they don't have the majority of the time with their child, which in most cases sometimes it can be mom in the situation, but for the most part is dead as the non custodial parent, And so what will happen is during the visits, there's this rush to kind of do all of these things with the child to make up for the breakup or the divorce. So a lack of responsibility sometimes almost I don't want to say spoiling, but over indulgence sometime in an effort to you know, lift the child's spirits instead of engaging in more balanced activities which would counteract some of the over indulgence. So there's like a lack of Sometimes chores comes up a lot uh with new step families, or lack thereof or talking respectfully to the parents in front of the new partner because that boundary has been crossed. And so sometimes children will feel like they are their parents here because they have been talking with them so long during this gap of when they weren't with anyone, and it was right after this breakup, that this may be a pattern that they fell into. Gunch You Okay, So it sounds like he can go either the way of maybe the the child becoming a bit parential in some ways kind of feeling like they have to kind of take care of their parents, or I could go the other way of, you know, maybe some more permissiveness, right and the kids kind of getting everything they want because you know, they feel like, oh, they've already had a tough time with this separation or a dead and now I'm just kind of give them whatever they want to make them feel better. Exactly. Yeah, there's a lot of I would say emotional parentification. It's not parentification and the sense of like, okay, they have to cook and clean. It's more like the child becomes moms or dad's confid on and so that's you know what it looks like. And like you said, there's you know, a level of permissiveness. And this is you know, all families are different, All single divorce and widow parents behave different but this is a common thing that comes up over and over is a sense of guilt about setting boundaries with your children, setting limits as well as appropriate age, appropriate concept onuances for behavior that's not you know, favorable, that may not help them in the long run, and that may you know, down the line, calls conflict not only between the step parent, but conflict between you know, the biological child and their their parents. So you mentioned also, Shelley that one of the most common things why people maybe have some trepidation of entering into a family unit where they're already children present, is this whole idea of the interaction with the ex partner, right, And so what kinds of things do you have to say for that? I mean, I think it may be interesting to talk even from both sides of the couch, so to speak. So maybe talking to somebody who is maybe interested in dating somewhere with children and also the ex partner, right, Like, if the ex partner is struggling with the idea that there's someone you coming into the family, what kinds of things might you talk with them about in therapy to really help them kind of process this. I would say for the angle or divorced parent that it takes a lot of you know, emotional healing because you never know why the breakup occurred, and there may be some old wounds that they're struggling with and to see this new person in the picture can be extremely triggering, specifically if the single or divorced parent had a really negative experience with their former partner. So I encourage people to take some time for their self and not to rush getting into a new relationship or feel pressure just because their partner may have moved quickly into a new relationship, and to allow themselves that space and that time that it takes to heal from this and to you know, I do recommend therapy so that they have a safe place to kind of process all of the thoughts and emotions that may be really troubling for them. And they sometime with single or divorce parents, they may get the idea that, you know, is this is my former partner being a better partner with this person, like are they getting the best of them? And I didn't and am I am I not worth? It? Was I not worth it, and they may struggle with that, and it's difficult, you know, to send your baby, you know, off for visits with this person that you don't know, especially if your partner has moved to the step of cohabitating, or if they're engaged or they're remarried, because you don't know what goes on in that household. But I encourage a single and divorced parents to you know, focus on it's difficult, but to focus on what you can control within your household, because co parenting is not always possible. Sometimes when they go to the other house, the rules are just they're different. And I would say for people who are you know, into rested or thinking about dating someone who is you know, who's already a parent and who has a former partner who they share a child with, the things I think that come up is once the relationship when it's new, I think, you know, like any relationship, it's exciting. But to encourage them to really slow down and to think about the ramifications of joining a unit that's pretty much you know, kind of halfway created already, and that you know, some things that come up down the line when you move too quickly. Is this idea for the step parent is if you're talking about a step mom in particular, of this kind of symbolic grief that they go through, of like oh no, I'll never give my partner their first child, and some people really struggle with that. And that's why I encourage moving extremely slow and to you know, really get solid with your partner first and then to gradually, you know, hang out with the kids. And I would say on the piece of the step parent or someone who's interested in dating a person with children, is that when you get to the stage you've met their child, is to really think about what role that you want to play in their life, because ultimately, the primary responsibility is the person you're dating. And I know sometime for women who are dating a man with children, they tend to kind of become overly responsible. But in the actuality, you know, the responsibility still lies with dead. They're there to see their death and to allow you know, those opportunities to happen for a long time with you know, the children and their father, and to make sure that's happening. And then to also think about if you are comfortable being left alone with them early in the relationship, because that occurs too kind of like, Okay, they're visitors here, I'm believing, but to keep in mind, Okay, the ultimate responsibility is with my partner. They're not here to visit me, and to make sure you communicate that to your partner. If you're more comfortable with family time as opposed to one on one time with the children, you know very early on, right, So, Shelly, you have again might want to stop because I think it's so important that you talked about this idea of the symbolic grief, because I do think I've heard women struggle with this idea right like that I'm not going to give them their first child, and I don't know, like you said, in the excitement of a new relationship, that is probably not something that you're thinking about, right, But as the relationship maybe progresses, that may be something that settles in that you have not anticipated feeling. So really trying to do as much thinking beginning side. It seems like it's really helpful so that you can have conversations about these things. Yeah, definitely, and then once you know you decide that this is something that you want to pursue. Is having a good support system and reaching out to other women who have the same experience, because sometimes what happens is, I don't want to just say women, but people who date a partner with children. But for the most part, I found that women are step moms or step girlfriends, whatever you like to call them, they struggle more than step dads. And I think that's because more responsibility is put on them in the relationship. It's a different expectation of what a man is supposed to do in relation to children and what a woman is supposed to do in relation to children, or what society tells us each of them are supposed to be doing. So for step moms, they, you know, struggle a lot with how much do I do? How much? UM should I pull back? Am I allowed to say this? Am I allowed to correct? You know? How much? Am I evolved? Do I go to PTA meetings or too I hang back? You know, like what am I supposed to do? And it's a lot of confusion, And like you said, the symbolic grief part that comes up quite a bit, especially if their partner has more than one child, and they kind of feel like, oh well, I don't think anybody is excited, but the partner usually is excited. And I've heard some really great single and divorced dads as well as mom kind of reassure and say, well, you know, you haven't given me my first child, but this is my first child with you, and that seems to really be helpful to kind of ease that anxiety about not being it's like the loss of first so to speak. This is not your first marriage, sometime not your first child, but it's the first time they are having these experiences with you, because each relationship is different and unique in its own right. So, Shelly, do you do because it seems like, like we said before, like it seems like there's a lot of conversations that need to happen when you're talking about, you know, developing this new family unit, and conversations about, like you said, how often or how much are you involved? Are you going to be doing pick up and drop off at school? What are the rules around discipline? Like what are some of the things, and how might you suggest people have this conversation so that they can get on the same page around some of these really important topics. I recommend you know, I'm talking with your partner individually, one on one because going back to the boundary thing, sometimes there's a tendency to kind of, oh, let's have the kids involved in all conversations, but we have to keep in mind all discussions are not age appropriate for children, and some discussions need to be heavy between the couple and the couple alone. All right, commend for step parents. Um to journal. I'm really big on journaling, and we kind of process what are you comfortable doing and what are you not comfortable doing? Because it's okay to be a a dad, a step dad and not be comfortable with this, and that's okay that you you don't aren't okay with that, and that it makes you uncomfortable and you prefer that your girlfriend or wife take on that role. And I just want to be clear, Um, I know I'm using like a girlfriend or wife, but I also you know, definitely include step families who are from the lgbt Q plus community, so you know, to include them in the conversation so that you know that your partner understands what you're comfortable with. But you have to kind of explore that for yourself first and to journal those things as they come up, like I really don't want to do this piece, or I'm more comfortable, you know, talking to my step daters about you know, the birds and the bees, because maybe my partner is not comfortable with that part of it. And I would like to have an active role taking them to cheer leading practice, for example, but I'm uncomfortable with making them do their chores. I would rather have your backup on that. And that's actually according to the research, is recommended that the biological parent take on the majority of the parenting role in the beginning, and that may last for a couple of years. That you know, single and divorced parents want to keep in mind that you may do be doing the heavy lifting in the beginning, because which you don't want to set up is that if the step parent becomes disciplinarian instead of being you know, the fun parent or the good cops so to speak, or the one who is kind of engages in lightweight activities, if you don't allow them that space to do that, what happens is they will take on the evil stepparent role if they are always cast in the role of the disciplinary. And so, because of attachment, you and your children, your biological children automatically have that bond together. And so the relationship between biological parent and child can withstand you know, discipline or setting limits whatever that you know looks like in your household, but the relationship between the child and the step parent, it can't really withstand that yet until there's you know, some trust build up and some alliance is built up where the child knows that the step parent is safe and they have their back, and also for the parent to know that, because we want to draw a distinction between a step parent who's struggling and a step parent who is abusive, because that's important to look out for and to you know, protect your children against that aspect as well. But to answer your question, I was would say, to get clear for yourself as a step parent what and to define your own role and to talk with your partner about what's okay for you and what makes you uncomfortable, right, And it seems like there would be of course, a lot of feelings that come up, and I know you're this excellent blog post for us Shelly on the Therapy for Black Girls website about how to take care of yourself as a step mom, because I think it can be really easy for your feelings almost to be lost, right, Like we are trying to pay attention to the kids. We're trying to make sure you know that I'm not seen as evil cop. You know, like it feels like there's a lot of energy that is going into maintaining like several other aspects of the family where it may be really easy for you to be forgotten. So what are some of the tips sort of suggestions you would have for people who are specifically stepping into this step mom role or maybe already in this role about how they can continue to make sure they're taking care of themselves and prioritizing themselves those Yeah, that's very, very important to utilize good self care. I would say one of the things is to journal definitely, and to really find a good support system because I think I started to go down this track at the beginning, but I kind of swwitched gears. But sometimes when step parents try to, you know, just vent about what's going on and the difficulties of the situation, they may be met with Oh, you shouldn't say that, or that's so horrible, how how dare you feel that way? And so it's important this may come from their own friends and family, and so it's important to reach out to two resources where there are other women or other you know, stepdads, if any men are listening to this to reach out to other a sense of community, because you need to have those people to talk to and to get feedback from and to normalize invalidate your experience. And I would say, for me, I really like to stress. I know, when we talk about self care, you know, sometimes we talk about massages and pedicures, which are great, But for me, I think a really big form of self care is assertiveness and boundaries and being able to prioritize what's important for you and what can be delegated so that you don't burn out and feel overwhelmed, and what may need to be you know, placed back on the plate of your partner so that you aren't feeling just drained. And so it's important to spend time with your friends, the friends you had before you know, you entered into this relationship, to make sure that you are doing things that bring you joy and that you're able to kind of reconnect with who you are. Because there's a really big thing that happens sometimes with self image is that because the situation may be difficult with either the X or with their new step children, some people take on feeling like they are evil or they are bad because they're struggling, and so to be careful, to be mindful of the self image that you're truck starting to develop, and to keep track of that and make sure that you're doing things that recharge your battery. I know, um when I work with families, I use a multidimensional approach in that I also have a conversation with my stepparents about their temperament and whether or not they lean toward extroversion or introversion. And I think that's important regarding self care because sometimes introverts need to hibernate a bit and they need more a long time than an extrovert, and to be mindful of that in the way that they schedule things, what they say no to and get in cough Pooble was saying no to certain things, and that's where the assertiveness comes up. And so I think that's really important to know yourself and to set limits on what you're capable of, as well as paying attention to what is rejuvenating for you and what is draining, and to take those barks that you need. I think that's something else that often comes up Shelley, is you know of course, not all relationships last, right, And so when you become a step mom, or you know, you're engaged or heavily dating a partner who has a child, and then that relationship ends, and what happens, you know, like after you've become close to this child, right, And so I'm wondering if you have any ideas about that, like how you navigate having a relationship with a child who you were close with but you really legally, of course, have no ties to your Yeah, I say a big one that does come up sometime, because there is a box that's created when you've been around this child. You help, you know, give in wood and help raise them, and the two of you do become close and a relationship is established. That's not all relationships, but for the ones that do become close, that's another loss because, like I was saying, that child has gotten attached to you on some level. And now, like you said, there's no legal right for step parents once there is a breakup, unless one of the one or both of the parents has passed on or some arrangement like that. For the most part, when a breakup happens between a biological parent and a step parent, there really is no more meeting up, there's no more hanging out. I've heard of rare instances where a step parent will continue, but I definitely encourage step parents who want to reach out to talk to their ex as well as their partners x about how they feel about that, because ultimately, this is their their biological child and they have the ultimate say and if they want to allow you to continue, but that will be you know, some grief work around missing this child as well as the child will miss their stepparents. And sometime in the case of when the non custodial parent is not involved, sometimes the other stepparents, even if there's a break up, will continue in the child's life, because I know some instances where maybe a child has a stepfather and he will continue to be in her life if her biological father is not in her life. So sometimes those things happen, but it can be really hard on both of them and to you know, easier child into those transitions, and definitely or single and divorced parents to talk to the child about it, not just trying to sweep it under the rug, because this is a connection that was lost for them and it's hurtful. And it's okay to acknowledge the child's feelings and to validate that they missed this person. So something else that we miss, Shelley, that I do want to make sure that we go back to you because you talked about in the beginning. One of the other challenges that can be present when we're talking about a step family dynamic is the idea of finances. And I think a lot of people maybe don't know this on the front end, but when you join into a family that where a child is already present and you're talking about like child support calculations, if correct, your salary does also go into making those calculations, like once you become you know, legally partnered to this person. Correct, But it does. It depends on what state you're in. I don't know you know the laws for each state, but it can be calculating. And I know in the past it was kind of like it had to happen, so to speak, like it was just you know, determined that, Okay, if you're part of this family, this is what has to happen. But going forward word, there's been a lot of changes in regard to that, and sometimes it's not calculating. It just depends on the situation. It depends on what each parent is making and how long the gap was between the person who was not receiving support so to speak, financially, and so it's a lot of factors. But I would say ultimately to you know, for those questions, I would definitely I know this sounds really like a lot of leg work to do for a person who's dating, but I would definitely if that's a concern. I encourage families that I work with to talk to a family law attorney and just to ask that question, would I be bound legally? What does that look like? Because in certain cases that that would be a requirement. Yeah. I think you're right, Shelley. Ready may seem like a lot to do, but I do think it's important to kind of pay attention and you know, to kind of be fully aware, uh, you know, the decisions you may be making entering into a partnership, Like you just want to have all of the information, I think, right. Yeah, So what are some of your favorite resources, Shelley, What are some of the books or podcasts or videos that you find yourself recommending frequently. I would say one that I recommend a lot, it's called step Monster and her name is Wednesday Martin, and she talks about the experience of step moms and the there's a high instance of depression with step moms and what they experience and kind of the whole evil step mom trope and what they go through, and she does a really good job of breaking that down. So I recommend that quite a bit. I also recommend in the case of breakups and pertaining to the child, there is a book called The Invisible Strength and it's a children's book and it's about all types of loss and the idea that you know, just because you can't see someone physically every day, that that doesn't mean that you don't still have a connection. So I really like that book. And there's another one regarding divorce is called I Want to Say My Two Homes. That's another good one for children. And then I would say to definitely pick up what is this step Mom magazine? I know it's geared more towards UH women, but I think men could benefit from it as well. And it has a lot of great articles. Um I've written some articles from them, so I would say those are really great resources. And where can people find out more information about you? Shelly, what is your website as well as any social media handles you want to share? Oh yeah, my um website is www dot my Counseling Clinic dot com and I also have a blog on them related to step parenting as well as women of color, so you can check that out. My social media handles are at my Counseling Clinic and that's on Facebook as well as Instagram. And in the early fall, I'll be coming out with a book related to this topic and some tips and tools to use when you're dating someone who has children. And then in in September, I'll be talking at the Diversity in Parenting Perfect we We will be sure to include all of that in the show notes so that people can find it really easily. Thank you so much for sharing with us today, Shelly. I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate this opportunity to thank you. I'm so grateful Shelly was able to share her expertise with us today. To learn more about her and her practice and the resources that she shared, visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session one. If you love this conversation, go ahead and text two of your friends and tell them to listen, and be sure to share your takeaways with us in your I G Stories or on Twitter using the hashtag TBG in session. If you're searching for a therapist in your area, check out our directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue this conversation with other sisters who listen to the podcast, come on over and join us in the Thrive Tribe, which is the Facebook group for our podcast. You can request to join at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Tribe and be sure to answer the three questions that are asked to gain injury. Don't forget to visit our online store at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash shop, where you can find our guided affirmation track, break up journal, and your favorite Therapy for Black Girls t shirts and mugs. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take it care can break break wood