Session 53: The Truth About Narcissism

Published Apr 18, 2018, 7:00 AM
Today's episode features my conversation with Licensed Professional Clinical Counselor & Postdoctoral Psychologist, Dr. Natalie Jones. Dr. Jones and I discussed why narcissism is much more than just being selfish, the criteria someone would have to meet to be diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, ways to take care of yourself if their is someone with narcissism in you

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information and valuable resources, check out the website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. And while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session fifty three of the podcast. This week, I wanted to take the opportunity to talk about another topic that has been getting lots more attention in recent years, narcissism. You've likely run across lots of articles titled things like five ways to know if your ex as a narcissist, So I wanted to make sure we all had accurate information to address this issue. Today I am joined by my friend and colleague, Dr Natalie Jones. Dr Jones is a licensed professional clinical counselor and a post doctoral psychologist. She currently has a private practice called lifetime counseling and Consulting in Oakland, California, where she specializes in working with women who have been in emotionally and psychologically abusive relationships with narcissists, as well as with individuals who were previously incarcerated for various crimes. Dr Jones also works for the California Department of Corrections and specializes in providing individual and group counseling and assessments to prison inmates who have committed very sious offenses, with the specialization in working with sex offenders. Dr Jones also has a podcast called A Date with Darkness, which specializes in providing education and tips from healing from narcissistic relationships. Dr Jones received her Masters in Clinical Counseling Psychology from the Chicago School of Professional Psychology in Chicago, Illinois, and her doctorate in Clinical Psychology from the California School of Professional Psychology in San Francisco, California. Dr Jones and I discussed why narcissism is much more than just being selfish, the criterias someone would have to meet to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, Ways to take care of yourself if there is someone with narcissism in your life, and she shared all of her favorite resources. We would love for you to share your thoughts with us on social media while you're listening, so please use the hashtag TBG in session to join in the conversation. Here's my chat with Dr Jones. Well, thanks so much for joining us today, Nett hi Joy, thank you for having me. Yeah, so I am very excited that you were able to join us today because this has been a topic that a lot of people have requested And I feel like I say that every week, but definitely a lot of people have. UM, a lot of people have asked about this whole topic of narcissism, right. We hear a lot of conversation about it, especially it feels like this year there are a lot of articles and things written about it. So can you give us a definition of what narcissism is and how that is different from maybe just being selfish or self absorbed? So, yeah, I can definitely break it down for you because we have the clinical definition, right, which is what you and I would use because UM, as clinicians, we go by the Diagnostic, Statistical and Treatment Manual, which is called the d s M five Um, so we go by that clinical diagnosis in versus society who now has this new top culture diagnosis of narcissism. So I'll break down what the actual true definition of you know, narcissistic personality disorder, rather what the characteristics are according to the clinical point of which is what our term our frame of references, which is, you know, what you want to look for is a grandiose sense of importance. So someone who thinks that they are better than everyone else, or they are higher up the chain or above or almost godlike as opposed to everyone else. Um. They typically fantasize about having power, success, control, or being excessively brilliant or beautiful. Um. They also fantasize about ideal love, like having the perfect lover. Um. They believe that they are special, so they're more special than anyone else. Um. They can only be associated with people who are of a high status. So people that are you know, ranking right up there with the president or just like you know, they just kind of they've got to be up there. And I only associate myself with people that are are are this good. I don't associate myself with lowly common people. Um. They like to be excessively admired UM. They Also, the one piece that stands out is that they're very entitled UM and extremely manipulative. They lack empathy or the abilities to sympathize with other people or their emotions or their situations. The other thing, too, is that they often have a lot of jealousy or envy over other people or other people's situations or other people's um material things or material wealth. Another common theme with folks who have narcissistic personality disorder is that they're arrogant and you express rage um, which is different than anger, but it's an extreme form of being self destructive or just destructive in in general where they just kind of want to obliterate everything in their path um and it's an extreme emotion and uh, yeah, is so that's that's the clinical uh form, that's a clinical definition of narcissistic personality disorder. We're talking about society joy. We are talking about people who do believe that someone is arrogant, or someone is just being manipulative, or someone's just being a jerk. Typically when they um, when they feel like that or they feel like, oh, this person used me and they got rid of me, Like I was and they treated me like I was nothing, or maybe they were verbally and emotionally abbusive to me, and so, um, that person was very narcissistic, or that person was very self centered and they didn't consider me. And so when someone says, um, my ex lover, Mike's husband, Mike's wife was narcissistic, that's typically what they are referring to. Okay, So just so that people are on the same page for the purposes of this conversation, we will actually be talking about people who have actually been diagnosed or meet at least some criteria for people with narcissistic personality disordered. We're not so much referring to like the pop culture term narcissism. So as you as you were talking that um, you you describe lots of different characteristics that, right are wrong, have been attributed to millennials, right, So this whole um idea of entitlement and everything is about me, and I am special and I'm the most beautiful. Um. You know, people often describe them as the gold Star generation because they got a star for participating and there were no losers kind of thing. And so can you talk about um like any research or anything you know related to like, are we seeing more of a diagnosis of MPD, which is you know, kind of what we kind of referred to it as in millennials. You know, honestly, I don't think so. Um. Joy. Just to answer your question, all of us have elements of narcissism, right, and narcissism. Uh. What a lot of people don't realize is it actually runs on like runs and like a range scale. So there's people at the low end and then there's people at the high end of the scale. And only actually about two percent of the population of people can be classified or are diagnosed I should say, within p D UM and other people are seen to have a narcissistic characteristics. UM. As of right now, I don't have any studies on me that I can quote, but UM, that's just been in the work that I've done. UM, in the research that I've done and the work that I do in corrections and things like that when I'm gathering educational materials and things like that. That's just what I've come across. And it's also been in my work experience that actually a low percentage of people have narcissistic personality disorder, but there's actually a higher percentage of people that have narcissistic traits. Um, so you will what you will find is people that have a number of the traits that I've mentioned, but don't necessarily meet all of the criteria of narcissistic personality disorder, or they're falling much lower on the spectrum. UM. So they may have a Yeah, if I could rate it on a scale of one to ten in terms of narcissistic traits, maybe they have one, and then on the higher end they may have eight, nine or ten something along those lines, if that makes sense. Okay, that's good information there, because I did not know that there was a scale, So yeah, that's what I mean. So, of course, you know, we're talking about the fact that like two percent is a very very low percentage, right, So it's very likely that most people have not actually come into contact with somebody who is diagnosed with mp D, but that a lot of us likely have experience with people who have maybe a significant numbers of the traits. Correct. Okay, okay, So what are some factors that might lead to people developing m p D. Are a significant number of the traits you mentioned that all of us likely have some narcissistic traits. UM, But what what kinds of things lead to somebody developing this disorder? Sure, UM, narcissistic personality disorder as well as all of the personality disorders. Because I specifically specialize in working with narcissist narcissistic personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder. I also do some work with borderline, but anti social narcissistic personality disorders are the main two that I work with, especially in corrections. UM. All personality disorders are rooted in trauma, So there's usually some form of trauma behind that UM. And typically what I see with narcissistic personality disorder is that men are more likely than women to have it. That's to say that women don't have it, because I have encountered women that do, But men are more likely than women to have it and also enjoy that UM. Typically, UH, folks who do have it, it comes they typically have a parent, and in my experience, more times than not or more often than not, it's usually the father of that person who also carries or also has that diagnostic criteria as well. Okay, so trauma is really the main thing that we're looking at when we're thinking about like any of the personality disorder diagnoses trauma, Yeah, any any time you're looking at a personality disorder in general, But within p D, you're typically gonna have the trauma piece and you're also going to have the family predisposition piece as well. Got it? Okay, Now, something that's interesting, Um, And I think I did know that it's more in that are diagnosed with MPD than women. But it feels like I have seen a lot um in terms of like narcissistic mothers. Um. And I'm not thinking of the book. Do you know a book book I'm talking about, Like there's a whole book about like being the daughter of a narcissistic mother. Yes, yes, And I don't recall who wrote it. I could probably pull it up on my kindle. Yeah, and we'll add it in the resources too, So we don't, but there is a book, and I will add that in the show notes for anybody who's listening. Um. But so it's interesting to hear that, you know, the diagnosis really tends to happen in women are men, But then it feels like there is more like conversation about like narcissistic mothers. Do you have any thoughts about that. Yeah, I do. I think that, like I said, it does occur in women. But again, it also you have to think about to um again the traits, and so I think a lot of times when you're talking about the traits, women are going to be equally as likely as men to have the full blown personality disorder. I typically have experienced mostly men with that, and then too, again, it also comes from it's an intergenerational trauma thing and that that's usually passed down from mom to mom. And also, you know, and this may sound biased, it may sound old worldly or what have you, but typically we're talking about children wanting to connect with a parent. A lot of people focus on the bond that a child has with their mother, and so there's been a lot more attention to the relationships that children have with their mother as opposed with their fathers. And this doesn't mean that a relationship with your father is not equally as important, but there's just been much more research and much more written about and much more focused on that. And so when something is not um right with a mom, or there's a breakdown in the relationship with the mom, there's typically a lot more focus given to that. Unfortunately, Yeah, that that is a very good point, and I hadn't considered that that likely. Um, we see more written about that because there's more research related to like the relationship between a child and mom. Right, very good, Yeah, there's there's actually you know, the dad is equally is important. But when you're looking at stuff that's being written, and I'm not saying that there isn't anything that hasn't been written, but what I am saying is there's a plethora more information written about the mom and what what mom has done to me, because mom is supposed to be viewed as more nurturing in the primary caregiver. So I have often heard that that people who are narcissistic, everybody else around them knows it besides them, right, Like they may be so much in their own world that that would never be something they would claim for themselves. But you will see a lot about like how to deal with the narcissists in your life and all of these different things. And so I'm curious about, Like, you did an excellent job of sharing like what the traits were, but what does this look like in real life, Like when you're talking about possibly dating somebody who may have a significant number of narcissistic traits. What kinds of things might you be seeing in that relationship? Sure, Joy, And I don't know that I necessarily agree that someone who's narcissistic doesn't know because they, in my experience, a lot of them do know that they lack empathy or they lack certain traits. They just don't care. It's not a problem for them, and what I mean, and so they feel like everybody else is more so the problem because you you are not rising up to their level to meet their expectations either, So you know threw you. And so that's that's more for what I see. Um. So, getting back to your question in terms of the characteristics of what you see, And I don't know if you prefer that I talked about men because your population or the not population, I've stopped saying that. But the people who listen to your show are mostly women. UM, So I'll just go ahead and refer to men because I know that you have mostly female listeners here, but recognize and know that this can be used interchangeably. And so one of one of the ways that we can see how narcissism shows up, um in our relationships with men UM. I think the first things to look out for is going to be uh that first of all, the it's gonna be their relationship history. And so usually typically in my experience and working with folks with personality disorders in general, UM, their relations their their patterns with relationships are often chaotic, so there's a lot of dysfunctional relationships they lack in uh, unstable relationships. The same also applies here for someone who's very narcissistic and that they have a history of unstable relationships, and what they're typically gonna be is what I like to call the white Knight or the victims syndrome. So that means that they perceive themselves as running in and saving the day for everybody else. And this is the kind of person that will say, you know, I had to help my baby mama, and I took care of all her bills, and I took care of all the kids and all that kind of stuff, and I did everything, and had it not been for me, UM, they just would have, you know, self destructed in the middle of the floor or something like that. So they owe they feel like this again, this is where the grandiosity piece comes in, Like I'm the person who ran in and saved the day, or they could be the victim, like everyone is out to get me, and you know, and again, how this looks in the relationship pieces like oh my EGX or my baby mama or whoever she tried to come out and get me, and she got me fired from my job, and she took all my money and she did all these things to me, and woe is me, and it's never ending, the plight of destruction brought on by someone else. And so everything was done to this person, and it's a miracle that they're even a lot because all this stuff was done to them. And the other thing to um that you want to notice or that you would know us with a narcissistic person is they like to be admired. They want to be loved by everyone. How this shows up in your relationship, joy is that they are going to be looking for you to fall for them immediately. Um. And so this is the type of person that might want to have sex with you on the first date or they're gonna they're gonna rush the relationship. So the relationship you've been two or three months, you might be getting married, you might be moving in, you might be having a baby together, and it's this rush, rush, rush, and it's like this bombardment of love to rush into something and it is. Things are happening so fast it can make your head spend and it just feels like one big honeymoon. And it's too good to be true. This is your prince Charming and he's the perfect person and he's doing all these wonderful things for you. And if it's too if he's too good to be true, uh, it typically is. So you're gonna see that. Um. Another thing that you will see two is a lot of um. There's there's an emotional shallowness um. And so what this may look like is that there's gonna be a lack of intimacy in the relationship. And that doesn't necessarily mean sexual intimacy. That means emotional intimacy. So that means that they don't necessarily want They're not ever gonna be in a position where they feel vulnerable or open to you. They may let you in on some things here and there, but it's not gonna be a person where you feel like you completely know this person. In fact, you're gonna feel just the opposite, like I see this person every day, but I don't truly know who this person is. UM. And the way that they may do this is they may keep uh certain family members away from you. Uh, they may not tell you things about their past, or they're gonna lie a lot about their past, so they could be a pathological liar UM. In another way that they can do that and just try to keep as much from you as possible. So they'll try to get all of the information they can about you from you, but they're not really ever gonna be divulging anything, if with any depth, especially emotional depth uh to you. UM. And so that's another sign to look for. UM. Another thing, too, is that you may also notice that they have they can turn on a dime and flip into a blind rage or jealous So this person is going going to be extremely jealous of you or people around you and things like that. So they may attempt to try to control who you and gauge with or limit those interactions, or become extremely upset UM over what may seem like it's nothing UM and try to you know, just basically try to maneuver you like a puppet on the strings and tell you, well, you shouldn't be talking to this person, even if it's a family member. They'll try to isolate you from those people so that you can basically be under their thumb um and under their control. And so they'll say things about people. She's just jealous of you because you've got X, Y and C. You don't need to be talking to her anyway because she's X, Y and Z. Some things like that are going to be some things that you're gonna hear. The other thing too, is that UM, the big piece is gonna be a manipulation and control UM. And this could be verbally that you oftentimes see this financially. So financially what that looks like is my money is my money and your money is also my money. And so they're basically they may not be paying bills or they may not be financially responsible, and uh, they don't ever want to show you how much they're making or go over finances with you, but they expect for you to give you give you give them your financial information and access to your finances and things like that. UM. They can also be physically abusive as a ways to obtain control UM. And so another another thing UM that you will also see with the narcissist is the hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is a big element, um, and what hypocrisy looks like. For example, if you see like a drunk guy on the street that you're with your partner and you guys see a drunk guy drinking liquor out of a paper bag or whatever, you'll be like, oh, look at that drunk you know, and just kind of like making a mockery of someone being drunk. And then you're probably thinking to yourself when you go home and you get drunk every night, so what are you talking about? You know, you just you just get drunk at home. So there's some hypocrisy there. Um. I see it a lot in corrections, UM, with people who are predators, especially sexual predators. Um, they'll be talking a lot about you know, I can't be around him. He's a sexual predator and he lessed kids, and he's this, and he's that. Well you just said you do the same thing. What are you talking about? So there's there's that big thing with hypocrisy there. I hope I answered your question. I don't want to go too far on Oh no, absolutely. Then that was excellent information, UM and something that I think probably for UM, fits into the manipulation. Can a worry that you talked about is a term that I think we often hear um in like regular just stories is gas lighting? Um, So can you talk more about what that is because I think we often hear but I don't know that people really know like what that means and what it looks like. Well, yeah, if you think about the term gas lighting, um, the easiest way that I can tell you is that it's it's basically like feeling like here in the Twilight Zone, and you are manipulating somebody to the point where someone is you're manipulating them psychologically, emotionally, mentally, where they're actually questioning their own sanity and whether or not something happened or whether or not something was done, and you do it in such a way that you are you were basically trying to um dictate a relationship or control of relationships. So again, one of the ways that this is done is you know, it's a pathological they they're pathological line, which I think I mentioned before, And so for example, UM, let's say you catch your boyfriend cheating. He's at the mall, he's kissing some other girl. You walk by and you see him and he you know, you confront this situation, Oh, it's not what you thought it was. Well, what was it? I was just checking the temperature, you know whatever. They're just gonna make up some blatant lion say and try. Then um, they're gonna turn it around on you, like what were you doing? Why are you cheating? Are you trying to check up on me? And well, you know you cheated? Was so and so? And I saw you texting so and so? And then it's just gonna turn around into this thing that has nothing to do with what you actually saw. And then at the end of the day, you're gonna be like, well, damn, that was he actually kissing so so? Like am I nuts? Like maybe I was wrong for trying to confront him for kissing another person in the mall, um, you know. And so there's there's also gonna be that constant you know, denial the what you saw, what you heard, or what you experience didn't happen the way you said it happened. And that's essentially what I'm talking about, is like it's it's this it's really this mind game. Um, and they kind of twist these things to make you think it didn't happen, and then you know, they try to turn the situation around on you, and before you know what, you guys were talking about something totally different than what the conversation started out on, and they may be pulling some things out of your past that you told them in confidence to use against you. Um. Well, you know, you said that you were going through depression, so you know, I think you're hallucinating as a result of your depression, and you're just you're just crazy and it kind of just wears you down over time, and they just they just throw that thing in to confuse you. And basically it's just a mass manipulation to turn things around on you and make you make you think that you're the problem, whereas you know they obviously were and essentially what it is is a cheap con mm hmm. So so not as you were talking it. You know, the word that you used, I think even a couple of times was like chaos um. And it feels like it may be really hard for you to even recognize that this is happening to you, right Like, if you're somebody who is dating someone um with significant narcissistic traits, you may not even realize it for a while, Like it feels like there could be so much going on around you that you that it takes a while for you to even recognize that something like this is happening around you. Correct. Yeah, So what kinds of tips or strategies could you offer maybe for someone maybe who has realized like, okay, I think my partner or a family member does have a significant number of narcissistic trees. Are there any tips or strategies you could offer? Yeah, I definitely offer a lot of UM, I have some tips and strategies for that, and so one of the things, of course, I definitely think therapy is number one, because you need someone outside of you UM to point you in the right direction and say, hey, this person is seriously disturbed, because sometimes what happens with friends and family members is that they're so charmed by this person that they may not even be able to see objectively because they've also been sucked into the false facade. And so having a therapist that can actually support you and listen to the situation objectively and point those things out like this person is um seriously disturbed and this is what's going on. Just being that voice of reason, and by you just having that awareness UM and and being able to talk about talk about it with the therapist, the therapists can definitely effectively help you navigate UM those channels. The other thing too, I'd like to recommend is doing your own research. We live in the world of Google. Google is great that Google is like my best friend, and for somebody like me, I actually have a Google assistance. So I talked to my phone. My phone finds everything for me UM. And one of the things that I often recommend is just looking up these things on Google. But also Amazon is also a great resource in terms of finding books and so if you ever are wondering about UM, why you do certain things or what is actually happening right now, a great resource that I recommend for people is uh any book by H. G. Tutor. H G. Tutor is a self proclaimed narcissist, and he lays it out beautifully UM in every single one of his books, UM in terms of the signs that you should look for, UM in terms of being able to spot a narcissist and how you should navigate that relationship, or rather how you should in that relationship. The other thing too, in this again requires a level of self reflection that I would recommends really sitting down and thinking about why are you drawn to this relationship? What's really keeping you in this circus? Um? You know, is it the fact that you feel obligated because you have kids? Isn't the fact that you feel obligated because this is your parents. Is it the fact that you don't like being alone and so therefore you want to be in a relationship with someone by any means necessary. Is it the fact that, UM, this is the father of your child. What is the reason that you are telling yourself in terms of why you're staying in this relationship, Because that's something too that you also need to be exploring. UM. Another way to sort of uh reflect in in terms of thinking about things is remembering who you were and what you were like before this relationship, what was going on with you, Because chances are UM, once you're involved in a relationship like this, you become a totally different person. You become lost in this relationship UM, and you might have also become very self destructive, or you may not even recognize who you were. You might not even talk to the same people that you used to talk to UM, or go out and engage in any hobbies, you might feel a lot more depressed and anxious and unsure of yourself. Now, Um, you may have gained weight because you're so busy taking care of this person. And so uh, with that being said, I would definitely recommend going to have a physical and and checking up with your doctor just to make sure that things are okay with you physically and mentally, um, in case you you feel yourself going down that road. Um. So those are some things that I would recommend in terms of you once you realize that you're in a in that relationship. Now, if you're wanting to leave that relationship, that's a different ball game, Okay, So that that might require a different kind of set of strategies. It definitely requires a different set of strategies. It may also require are some additional support because um, and it can often be very dangerous because one of the ways that narcissistic narcissists work in their relationships, it's almost like a parasitic relationship because they work by controlling and manipulating the relationship, and that they don't want you to leave that relationship unless they're ready for you to leave that relationship. So if you leave before that that's gonna be a problem for them. UM. And so you may want to have a safety plan in place for that. UM. So you definitely want to have a place to go. You might want to have some money set aside. You. You definitely want to have a support system UM in place, people that you can trust that are not going to go back and divulge things about that uh, talking with your therapists and UM. You know, online support groups are also great UM. Facebook groups and things like that are also great if you if you're thinking about it but you're not quite ready to UM or once you get out UM. But definitely doing things like that, and also changing things like passwords or getting a new phone number or you know, just basically having anything that they can try to take uh and manipulate or mess with. You want to have that in a separate space or a safe space altogether. You definitely want to be aware of your surroundings, be aware of any small changes or things like that. Also be aware for the backlash because there's a good chance they're gonna spin out into a rage because they don't like it. UM. And when someone spins out into a rage, they become very irrational. And unpredictable, and they're gonna do things to lash out because they want you to feel the pain that they feel. Um. So they're gonna do this by turning people against you. They may call your job uh and harass you there. They may you know, slash tires or break things, become physically destructive. They might start talking to your friends and and other people who know you and telling them lies about you or things like that. So um and and also become like a sad physically destructive, so they may want to assault you. You might start getting a barrage of text messages or phone calls that are very verbally abusive. God. So yeah, so that's when we would talk about, like you mentioned working with a therapist to make sure you have a plan to kind of outline all of these things that would need to happen for you to be able to leave this relationship safely. Correct. So now I'm also wondering because it could also be the case that some people may be listening and recognize like, wow, I think I have a lot of these characteristics, right, Like I struggle with a lot of these things. Um So, what what kinds of strategies are um? Tips would you offer somebody who kind of recognizes themselves in a lot of these symptoms. You mean in terms of being a victim of narcissistic abuse, no, actually being the narcissistic person themselves. You know, joy have. If a person recognizes themselves as being narcissistic, typically in my experience, they don't go to treatment unless they're mandated or unless they've gotten a big kick in the butt. A kick in the butt is usually like some sort of um legal situation, or you know, there's a threat that someone is going to leave them or something like that. So if they're narcissistic, um, I would again, I would recommend that you go to a therapist m a therapist that is specifically trained in working with that type of personality disorder because, um, again, that is a different type of person than just your I'm not saying that, um, other therapists aren't good or they're not qualified, but you definitely want someone who is trained and working with personality disorders because they're working with folks that have strong implications of a personality disorder. That means that you also have to have very firm boundaries and really and truly you are a specialty because not everybody can do that UM, and narcissistic folks UH, they tend to lash out a lot, even with the clinician. So this is the person that is often very litigious and is threatening to sue or again gets into a rage when things don't go their way. They're very demanding, they may not respect your time. They may also not want to pay the bill for therapy as well, so they may may try to skate out without paying bills and things like that UM, and so you want someone who is specifically trained in treating that. Again, UM also what they may identify with though as opposed to wanting to admit that they have a personality disorders, they may actually recognize that they have feelings of anxiety or depression. And it is true a person with narcissistic personality disorder UM can have symptoms of anxiety and depression and they'll often tend to minimize that, so they may seek out medication for that. But you definitely want someone who is trained in that UM. There's also within treating that UM personality disorder, there's also UM specific source of treatment modalities that work well with that UM. There are some people who talk about empathy training I personally don't use it. I think is a waste of time because I don't think it's effective and training someone uh teaching, So trying to teach someone who has no empathy empathy, but there are some people that prefer to do that. It's just not for me. When I found that works best in the folks that I work with, is um cognitive behavioral therapy, behavior modification, or even dialectical behavioral therapy and basically what all that that means. Those are fancy terms for basically having a person to look at their behavior and looking at the impact that acting on certain things is going to have for them. So I'm basically retraining them how to evaluate their behaviors and things that they can do instead of being destructive or instead of being malicious to other people. Okay, so that is a really important distinction because you know, one of the symptoms that you mentioned was like a lack of empathy. And it sounds like it's been your experience that trying to teach somebody that is difficult, But what you have found effective is helping them to understand like the consequences of their actions, correct, got it? Okay? Okay, that sounds good. So what are some of your other favorite resources? Now, so you mentioned the h G Tutor books, but for other people who maybe want to read more about this or UM feel like they may be struggling with a parent or a loved one who is having some of these characteristics. What other books or resources do you really like? I really like anything by Lundie Bancroft. Lundy has a lot of good books. Um. Beverly Ingle also has great books. Um. And let's see here. I also have Dr Susan Forward. She writes a book on toxic families and things like that, and so I love, love, love her stuff, and she's an oldie, but goodie. UM. And there's yeah. So those are some And of course I have to recommend my podcast right because of course NARCISSI Stick of You, so a Date with Darkness podcasts as well as my blog. I also write quite a few things um, and then do videos um and folks. UM. There's also people typically if you're in a relationship with the narcissistic person, A lot of people often suffer from UH coming from a narcissistic family or having a narcissistic parent. There's a book by Stephanie Donaldson Pressman. She wrote the book called The Narcissistic Family Diagnosis and Treatment, So that's also another good book. UM. Harriet Learner writes great books too. They're not about narcissism per se that they are about very similar struggles that people who are victims of narcissistic relationships have, so the dance with anger, the dance with intimacy, and things like that. So she's written a few great books, and I don't mind sending those over to you so you can post that UM in your show notes joy Perfect. Yeah, I definitely would like those because I know people will be wanting to check a lot of this out to get more information. Definitely. And then there's a good YouTube channel that I'm like, I'm gonna be doing mine UM again when I have time. But another great person on YouTube that has a lot of great YouTube channels is Kim Said, and said is spelled s A E E D Kim Si. She has a really good channel on YouTube UM that talks a lot about narcissism as well. Perfect. Thank you for that net So you already talked about your podcast that definitely people should check out because you do an excellent job of like talking about all the different intricacies of what this looks like and how you know you can recognize some of this stuff. Um, But are there any other announcements? There are things that you're planning that you want to share. So I am planning on doing a conference, UM, I'm open coming up soon. I haven't haven't set a date for PEZZY the Psychological Educational UM. They do psych educational trainings and so I want to be doing some trainings for them. UM. Me and some colleagues have talked about doing a summit, but nothing is set in stone yet. So a summit which would be online um and filled with like webinars and things like that. UM. And so those are the only things that I have in the works that are kind of like swirling plans right now. UM. I'm hoping to you know, get my name out there a little bit more and write a book again that's swirling in my head that it hasn't come to fruition yet. So I'm hoping to have that stuff in the works no later than a couple of months from now. Okay, So is there a way for people to like get on your newsletter or sign up for your newsletter on your website? So that they can kind of keep updated with all of the things you're gonna be Oh yeah, for sure Jones dot com again, yep, Dr Natalie Jones dot com. So it's my name spelled out, um, and all my social media handles and everything or is up there. And you know, I'm definitely on Facebook, um, and it's a lot of times I'll do follow up Facebook lives with the guests that I have on my show. I definitely have the group a Date with Darkness group in which victims of narcissistic abuse can you know, basically join and ask questions, um and talk to each other and offer support and be like a safe support of healing space. UM. So yeah, that kind of that, that kind of stuff. What you're administrator, you're an administrator of my group. I think that right. That's okay. Well, that is awesome information. And of course all this will be including the show notes for people to find easily, um, so that they can check out all the infantation that you shared. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Nett. Thank you so much for having me Joy. It was a pleasure to be up here on your show in a long time in the making. Absolutely, I'm glad we can make it happen. Thanks. I learned quite a bit during my conversation with Dr Jones, and I hope that you did too. Please make sure to check out the resources that she shared, and be sure to check out her podcast. She covers topics that I'm pretty sure you won't find anywhere else. You can find all of that information at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session fifty three. If you'd like to continue the conversations we've started here on the podcast, make sure to join us over in the Facebook community at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash tribe. And if you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to check out the therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. Thank you so much to all of you who entered the give away and for all of your kind words about the one year anniversary of the podcast. I really appreciate it. The winners of the giveaway will be announced tomorrow, so be on the lookout for that. I hope you all have an amazing week and I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take care. Fist

Therapy for Black Girls

The Therapy for Black Girls podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a license 
Social links
Follow podcast
Recent clips
Browse 473 clip(s)