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Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcasts, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information, visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. And while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session eighty six of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast this holiday season, I want you to give yourself the gift of boundaries. For today's episode, we're digging a little deep her into the importance of boundaries and how they protect us. For this conversation, I was joined by Kim Knight. Kim is a licensed mental health counselor with a private practice in Long Island, New York. Kim works as a therapist and coach, primarily with professional women who are successful in their professional lives and careers, but struggling in their relationships. The work that she does is often around empowering women to recognize blind spots and false beliefs that interfere with their ability to create and experience healthy relationships. Kim and I chatted about why it's so important to set boundaries, how to get beyond the idea that boundary setting means hurting someone's feelings, how to teach boundaries to kids, and how setting boundaries can result in more fulfilling relationships. If you hear something that really resonates with you while listening, please be sure to share it with us on social media using the hashtag tb G in session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Kim, Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. You know, I am super excited to have you. This has been a long time in the making UM, and we are gonna talk about and continue to talk about one of my favorite topics, which is boundaries. I don't think you can ever have too much of them, and so I wanted to hear from you Kim, though, why do you think it's really important for us to actually set boundaries when we talk about self care and UM acts of self love. I believe boundaries falls right in there in that topic, and I think it's important because it really has the ability when you have healthy boundaries with people and with situations, it really gives you an opportunity to create healthy relationships in your life that are more fulfilling. You can become happier as a person in your life when you have healthy boundaries, because without them, that's when one might start to feel as if they're constantly being taken advantage of, or they're unhappy in their relationships, they're feeling misunderstood, um, they become resentful. So you know, it can be the ticket to having a happier life and having better relationships when you set healthy boundaries. It's so important. I think that you shared that, Kim, because I was having a conversation I think with somebody like in the Thrive tribe recently and she posed a question and immediately what rang out to me was that this is a lack of boundaries, right Like, anytime you're feeling like super resentful of a friend or you know, just kind of things are escalating in that way, that to me is a clear sign that somewhere along the line, there have been boundaries that have not been said, Yeah, absolutely. And the good thing about boundaries though, is that is the one thing that you can learn how to control. Right, So there are you know, the people in our lives, what they say, what they do, and how they act. We don't necessarily have control over that. But the boundaries that we place in our lives when it comes to our relationships, that we have total control over. So initially we may have trained people to treat us a certain kind of way based on how we react or act in the relationship. But once you become aware of that boundaries is something that's been lacking, you now have an opportunity to reset some things and create a relationship that was more beneficial for you as well. So what does this actually look like in practice, Kim? Because I think a lot of times we talk about like boundary setting, but we don't necessarily always give like real life examples of like how you can do this thing. So what are some examples of like ways to set boundaries in your relationship? I think one way is being really clear on what you're willing to accept and not accept in relationships and being able to communicate that and not necessarily in you know, say ing it directly like okay, so here's the new relationship, and here's exactly what accept and not accept. But certainly when you start to become more aware and recognize when a boundary is being crossed or pushed, that you have the ability to say no in some instances, to push back a little bit, be a little more assertive, learning how to express your thoughts and feelings in those moments without those feelings of guilt or those feelings of fear. So I think a lot of it is in how we behave, and sometimes the things in which we say and how we say them as well. You know, sometimes we have to set really hard boundaries with people who constantly intrude upon our space or have no sense of you know, what it is to respect boundaries, and then sometimes we have to set so boundaries. So it really depends on the situation and the person. But I think in terms of action and what we do, it has a lot to do with what we say and how we behave that can send the message that there's a boundary in place. So you mentioned something about soft and hard boundaries. Can you say more about like what the difference in those are? Okay, So, sometimes you know there are individuals that really don't get messages clear or um read signals that indicate that they might be crossing a boundary. So in those instances you have to be really firm with it, meaning a no means a no, and there's no wavering on it. And sometimes, you know, in relationships where there may be abuse or there may be a constant instances of disrespect, sometimes you have to end a relationship because of it, and that too is a boundary that's very hard and direct. Those are a couple of examples of a hard boundary, and then a soft boundary might be really just shifting the relationship a little bit where a person and may always expect you to say yes or always may anticipate based on you know, the way the relationship has been historically, expect you to act a certain kind of way, and you might have opportunities where you just change your behaviors a little bit and start to send signals or messages that don't expect me to say yes all the time. There may be instances in which I may have to say no or I might have to push back, and that basically it's just not business as usual. So there are ways in which you can send different types of messages and different types of boundaries, and sometimes they may be harder, sometimes they may be saw very good information, Kim, and so I think a lot of times what comes up when we're having these conversations about boundaries, um, people will often say like, oh, I don't want to hurt somebody's feelings or I don't want them to be upset with me. What would you say in response to that? That is an understandable feeling, especially if you are one who tends to like to please people, bend over backwards for others, you always give of yourself or you're not used to putting yourself first. UM. So, I would say, when those feelings come up, know that they're normal based on you know, how you've been in the past. But that really is also an opportunity to remind yourself that you know, boundaries are really an act of self love. You know, they're really the actions that you take that demonstrate self care and that you know, sometimes when we don't set good boundaries, were also not holding people accountable or making them responsible for their own behaviors. And I think that that sometimes does a disservice to the other person. So you know, it's really gonna be a matter of perspective and how you choose to look at it for yourself. But in the end, it truly is not an selfish act. It's not a mean act. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Is truly a loving act and a loving act of kindness towards yourself. Yeah, I think that's so important, and I think when you look at it that way, it does help to shift the perspective right, because it really is more about you and taking care of yourself as opposed to about being mean to this other person. That's correct, And you know, in the end, those who really value the relationship will fall in line with the boundaries. They'll start to respect the boundaries because you can retrain people on how to treat you and how to be in a relationship with you. And the ones who choose not to respect the boundaries, you know, you have the question and ask yourself, is this relationship really worth it to me that I'm willing to be in a situation where I'm constantly being taken advantage of or I'm constantly feeling like I'm being abused. Sometimes it boils down to you asking yourself some really tough questions about the quality and the value of the relationship. So do you think there's ever a point where we have gotten too far in terms of like not setting a boundary where there's no way to recover from it. I do not believe that it's ever too late to change the dynamics in a relationship. You know, it's just about the person making the decision and being ready to do so, and then starting that process working through the emotions that go along with it, because it can be a very emotional experience when you decide in certain relationships to set some boundaries. You know, those feelings of guilt, the feelings of feeling bad because you don't want to hurt the person's feelings, being nervous or scared that the relationship may end because of it. So those are all normal feelings that you're gonna have. But even in spite of that, it doesn't mean that you don't engage in that self care act of setting boundaries, and it doesn't mean that it's too late to do so at any point in time. And sometimes you know, when you have consistent or persistent relationships where it's clear that bound trees are not there, then that might be a good time to seek the support of a professional who can really help you work through those feelings that come up and help you strategize and figure out what are the things that you can do behaviorally at their behaviors that you have to change, as well as dealing with the emotions. So it's not uncommon to seek the help of a therapist or a counselor who can help you work through it. As you start to create more boundaries in your life, So can you talk a little bit about what that might look like him, Like, let's say a client came to you and say, you know, I started down this path. I'm really trying to you set firm re boundaries in my life, but it's still been very difficult. I feel really guilty, really anxious, Like what kinds of things might you do with them to help along with that process? Well, I constantly reinforce the message that being engaged in your self care is really important because it really boils down to how you feel about yourself, what you feel you you deserve, what you believe you deserve. But there is other work to do when it comes to self worth and feeling is if you are enough. You know a lot of times those are the underlying beliefs that some clients have that get in the way of their ability to set boundaries. But sometimes when we do that work first and really start to lay the groundwork and helping to empower clients and helping them to recognize what they do deserve and really start to believe that, then you can set the stage for them to start giving examples or doing more behaviors that assert their willingness and their need to set boundaries in their lives. So I think that brings up a great point him in terms of like some of those underlying messages around why it's difficult for us to set boundaries anyway, like the feeling of not good enough, or like I don't deserve to you have a boundary setter, I'm afraid of losing these relationships. Where do you think that comes from? Like how early are we getting messages about boundaries and like what kinds of things maybe can we be doing, even as parents to help our children do better with boundary setting. Oh, so many messages come through our childhood experiences, what we've seen in our relationships with our parents or the relationships that our parents had with each other. Those messages are ingrained in us as well as what we've experienced ourselves in our own lives. You know, all of those play a role in who we become as adults. And unless we start to explore that and look at that and decide whether or not that works for us or not, and once we make the decision that it no longer works for us, then that's a great opportunity to start doing the work to make some changes, because some of it is generational. I mean, you've heard the term generational patterns and things that have been passed on through the years in our families, and you know, some of the relationships that we've seen and experience just haven't been healthy. And it often isn't intentional, it's just kind of what it's been for the for many, many years. And once you get to a space where you realize, you know, what this may have been, what it's been in the past, but this no longer works for me, you really do, then at that point have that opportunity to make changes. And the work isn't always easy. The work isn't always pretty, because sometimes when you start really getting to the root of things and you start really peeling away the layers and recognizing some of these you know, deep rooted beliefs and where they come from can be challenging to work through that, but once you do, it can be such a game changer because then you have more control over your life. You feel like you have more of a say in your relationships. The quality of your life is often determined by the quality of your relationships, and if you start to create quality and healthy relationships in your life, chances are you're setting yourself up to the experienced life in a really positive and happy way. Thanks for that, Kim, I mean, I know, I've seen a lot um and it seems like this is more recent in terms of, like, you know how sometimes we will say tell our little kids like, oh, go give grandma hug or you know, and the kid will kind of be like, no, I don't want to really hug grandma. But but giving them kind of autonomy over whether they want to actually embrace other people, because that does teach them that I have control over my body. Something like that is an early boundary setting. That's absolutely correct. So yes, so as parents and and working with children, it is important to start early. And setting boundaries doesn't have to be done in a disrespectful way. It doesn't have to be done in the mean way. It doesn't have to be done in a way that it puts people on the defense. Although you can't control how others will react. But there are ways to be assertive and not be aggressive, you know. And I think that sometimes those two things get kind of mixed up where people think that being assertive and setting boundaries means that you have to be mean and aggressive about it, and that's not it at all. So even without children, we can teach them how to set boundaries for themselves, to create safe space around them and feel good about telling people know or feeling good about being resistant in situations where they feel uncomfortable, because, like we said, it starts from so early on in the messages that we send and the messages that we've received as children. Yeah, even this weekend, I think it was there was a Twitter user by the name of Aaron Brooke who shared a threat about like how her mom taught her about boundary setting really early in terms of like she was going to a sleepover I think for the first time, and mom told her, you know, if at any point, no matter what time of night it is, you feel uncomfortable and you want me to come and get you. I will come and get you. You just ask the parents to use the phone and I will come and get you. And she shared, like all these years later with that told her about like her mom being there for her and that it was always okay for her to choose herself first, no matter if other people were inconvenient. Oh, such an important message. And you can start sending those types of messages from when they're in very very young and um, they can take it with them throughout their growth and development and then as adults they learned how to be in relationships with healthy boundaries. Yeah. I mean, I just thought that was so powerful because it's something you know, like pretty mundane, right, like you wouldn't necessarily think about it. But as she talked more and shared in her Twitter and I'll link it in the show notes for people who maybe didn't see it, but she shared about how, you know, like the mom of the house they were at would like apologize to her mom like, oh, I'm so sorry this happening the kind of thing, and her mom was saying, you know, don't apologize for this, Like I want her to know it's okay that she can always get out of a situation that makes her uncomfortable. And I think as women, a lot of times we do that to ourselves and each other. Just I think in terms of our socialization of like not wanting to be inconvenient, or we don't want to upset somebody, or we don't want to take up too much space. And what does that do to like our own self care in putting ourselves kind of in our needs behind those of others, Like you said, to make people comfortable and to not inconvenience people, those are kinds of things that we're taught from very very early on, especially as women, right, and then that manifest into something different or something unhealthy and how we may be showing up in our relationships. So, Kim, what would you suggest for somebody who may be listening and they're thinking, like, oh, do I have an issue with boundaries? Like is this something that I need to work on? Like what kinds of things or what kind of like start or inventory? Maybe could they do to to kind of figure out whether this is an issue they need to work on? Well, I would say, look at your relationships and look at how those relationships are making you feel okay. So, for example, you may have friends who when the phone rings and you see their name on the screen, you feel like like you feel you feel drained already, right, So I mean that's just one example, but you know, I would say, really pay close attention to how some of the relationship that you have make you feel. And if you feel drained around these people, or if these relationships make you feel, you know, negatively, those are red flags. Those are signs. Those are good indicators that you know, maybe these relationships aren't serving me in a real positive way and I need to look a little closer. And are there instances where you know you want to say no, but you say yes anyway? Are there people in your life that you're starting to feel resentful towards? You know? Those are really good indicators that you may have some boundary issues. Um are you constantly feeling like you're taking an advantage of like people don't understand your people don't um hear you. Do you feel like people constantly just walk all over you? Do you refer you to yourself as a doormat or people please sir? Those are good signs that you might need to take a closer look at some of these relationships and are they truly healthy ones for you and they serving you as well as serving the other person. You know, do you have a lot of one sided relationships? You know? Those are good signs that that can help give you insight into the quality of your relationships and if it needs to be more boundary setting in them. So those are just a few things that I could think of. That's so great him. I think that is like a perfect kind of like what kinds of reactions are you having to the people in your life? You know? Like I think sometimes we just are on autopilot, like continuing with friendships and relationships because you know, we just kind of are. But if you actually can spend some time thinking about like how do I really feel about how this person makes me feel? You know, do I really enjoy this relationship? I think it could give us some good information that's correct and you know, and it's it's a good starting point. And then remember that setting boundaries doesn't mean that the relationship has to end. It just really means that it needs to change. And one thing that I will say that I think is really important for people to remember is that when they start that process of really being active or engaged in setting boundaries with people to remember that people do not like boundaries, so you have to anticipate and expect some form of resistance to it. And what does resistance look like. You know, it can look like them trying even harder to push the boundaries Across the boundaries. It can look like them getting upset with you, trying to guilt you into um being the way you used to be with them. So you have to be mindful and watchful of those types of things, because you know, people don't like boundaries, and it doesn't make them bad people. It just means, you know, human nature is that if the relationship was working for them and now it's no longer working, they're gonna want to try their best to get it back to the way that it worked for them. So that's when you really have to be clear on the boundaries you're setting and stand firm in them, because people are going to push up against them, especially in the beginning when it's new to them. You know, they're they're looking at you like, mmm, well this is new. You know you never told me no before, and oh my goodness, you know I don't like this. You know, this is what they can be saying subconsciously to themselves and and they're going to behave in manners that may, you know, really demonstrate resistance towards your boundaries. So I encourage people when you make that decision to set them to stand firm in them, and then eventually those who value the relationship will fall in line and start to respect your new bound and those that don't, you know, maybe that relationship wasn't as valuable as you thought that it was. So that's one of the things that I always prepare clients for when they're starting to set boundaries that don't expect people to agree with them or fall in line with them right away. That just means that you have to stand firm in them and not allow that resistance to move you. That is such a great reminded him. And I'm always telling people, you know, like the work is not really in setting the boundary, it's maintaining the boundary a lot of times, and for those exact reasons that you just outlined that people will, you know, try to cross the boundary to get it to work back in their favorite in the ways that they were used to. Absolutely, do you think, Kim, there is something or things such as being too boundaries, Yes, that if you don't allow people in, I think then you are. Yes, you might be avoiding pain or avoiding people taking advantage of view or avoiding you know, having to feel resentful, but then you're still also avoiding an opportunity to have healthy relationships. So there is a balance, and you really have to find your own balance that works for you, because I think it is an individual choice. But there is a sweet spot I feel for boundaries where you can create relationships that allow people in just enough for it to be healthy for you, satisfying and fulfilling. And you know, that's, like I said, for you to determine what that balance is. But it is something to be mindful of because you don't want to set such hard boundaries that people you know can't even connect with you or have an intimate relationship with you or true friendship. So those are things to definitely be mindful of. Great information, Yeah, I mean, because the boundary can keep things that you don't want out, but it also can keep any good things from coming in if it's like too strong that you have if you're too boundaries you mentioned yea cool, So what are some of your favorite resources, Kim? I know you do a lot of this work with your clients. What are some of the books and podcasts and things that you kind of find yourself recommending over and over again. Okay, well, of course there's your podcast. I recommend that all the time, all day long to clients. So that's one. Um there is a great book specifically on boundaries. It's entitled Boundaries by Dr Henry Cloud and Dr John Townsend. I think that that is a really good place to start as well when you're starting to look at what areas in my life do I need to set more boundaries and how can I go about doing it? It gives really good examples of instances where you know boundaries are an issue, and also how to go about starting to shift those relationships in ways that are more mutually beneficial. Um So, I think that's also a great resource as well. There are tons of articles and things that I always google to look up you know, what people are saying about boundaries. And you know, when I work with clients, it really is about giving them permission to start changing their behaviors and their relationships and um you know, that's a lot of the work that I do with clients, and it's really about being present with them and helping them work through the emotions that go along with setting boundaries. So yes, so those are two things that I often recommend. Is the podcast, your podcast specifically, and then the book boundaries. Okay, and I know that you also have a great book which I think is like super relatable and like great information for couples. Um. So your book is called Relationship Recipes. Yes, can you tell us a little bit more about it. I wanted to create, um something for couples to be able to use that's practical, that's easy, and in some ways fun. So basically I created a book around different areas of a relationship that you can work on, but I did it in a recipe format, So each recipe is a topic like I have communication, cast, role, forgiveness, fondue, and each of the chapters is a recipe, but it's set up in a recipe format, so you have your ingredients for the recipe, which is just a little snapshot and bullet points of things that you need to do in those areas to make those areas more beneficial and healthy. And then there's the actual preparation of the recipe with I go into detail about what you can do to create better communication, what you can do around forgiveness and forgiving your spouse. And there's about twelve or thirteen chapters on different areas and relationships, and at the end of each chapter there is a workbooks. At the end of each chapter there exercises that you can do that can help you really be engaged in the process, and you and your partner can work together on the exercises to help you improve and have healthy relationships in your life. So that is one thing that I also recommend for couples, because relationships, you know, it's not just about intimate relationships, right, So boundaries need to be in place with sometimes our family members sometimes, our parents, our siblings, our friendships, sometimes with our coworkers, our colleagues, our boss sometimes. So you know, there's there's plenty of opportunity to see where boundaries need to be set and start to put them in place. Um, but my book is for couples specifically. And then I have my podcast which is also on titled Relationship Recipes. It is on iTunes, and that also is a place where we talk about relationships in all areas of our lives, so not just intimate relationships or familial relationships, but also you know, your relationship with food, your relationship with money, your relationship with God. I mean, we are in relationships all the time, so you know, sometimes when you can look at how you're relating in the relationship, because really you're the only one that can control how you are in our relationships. And once you're able to explore that and become more way of certain things that you do and what you believe, then you're able to change relationships in all areas of your life. So, um those are two of the resources that I've created for UM listeners and for clients to use to help them create better relationships perfect and of course all of that will be in the show notes. Um So, can you also tell us, Kim where we can find you? So you practice in New York? Um So, can you give us like the website for your practice as well as any social media handles you want to share? Sure? Absolutely, So. There is the relationship Recipes page that is on Facebook, and there's also, like I said the podcast, there's um oppor to need there to engage and leave reviews and give feedback and things of that sort. My website is k Night, that's k K and I g h T Counseling dot com. I'm located in Long Island, New York, so I see clients there, but I also do coaching, and primarily I work with professional women who are basically slaying in their careers but failing in their relationships. I do a lot of work with those types of clients because they tend to, you know, have really successful careers. They're doing well, they're very confident in that area and and really thriving, but then when it comes to their own personal relationships, whether it be intimate relationships or friendships, they seem to struggle. So, you know, I think that's an interesting way in which you can be so successful in one area and unsuccessful in another, and being able to figure out what's going on with clients that and so fulfilling for me. And so there's also a lot of boundary work there that I end up having to do and recognizing unhealthy relationships and trying to create better ones. So the website is the way to reach me, and then online through the relationship recipes page, they can reach me there as well. Perfect Well, thank you so much for sharing this information with us today, Kim, I really appreciate it. Well, thank you so much for having me, Dr Joy, and I hope that your listeners were able to walk away feeling a little better about their ability to create healthy relationships in their lives. Oh, I am sure they will. Hm. I'm so thankful Kim was able to share her expertise with us today. To learn more about her and her practice, visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot Com slash Session eighty six, and please make sure to share your takeaways from the episode with us in your I G stories or on Twitter. Be sure to use the hashtag tv G in session so that we can find them and share them. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to visit the therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. If you're interested in practicing more effective ways to set boundaries, join us over in the Yellow Couch Collective at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash y c C. And if you want to continue this conversation and chat with other sisters who listened to the podcast, join us over in the Thrive Tribe at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash tribe. Make sure you answer the three questions that are asked to gain entry. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week, and I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take you care, Actor all, Actor par actor