The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
This week we're digging into some of the challenges of being a Black woman physician. For this conversation I was joined by Dr. Tosin Odunsi. Dr. Odunsi and I discussed her experiences in medical school, some of the microagressions she’s experienced as a physician, how she takes care of her mental health, and she shared tips for other sisters considering medical school.
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M okay. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session one forty six of the Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. Today we're digging into some of the challenges of being a black woman physician. For this conversation, I was joined by Dr Tilson o'duncy. Dr o'duncy is an O b G y N who has had a non traditional path to becoming a physician. After graduating from Cornell University in two thousand and eight, she started her master's degree in public health at Thomas Jefferson University in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. She went on to start medical school at Maharry Medical College in Nashville, Tennessee, and completed her MPH between her second and third year. Subsequently, she graduated from me Harry in two thousand and fourteen. Dr o'duncey and I discussed her experiences in medical school, some of the microaggressions she's experienced as a physician, how she takes care of her missal health, and she shared tips for other sisters considering medical school. If you are something while listening that resonates with you, please share with us on social media using the hashtag tv G in Session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for being with us today, Dr o'dency, Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yeah. Likewise, so we have lots of black women physicians who are a part of our audience. They are always in the comments when they have free time. So I'm really happy to chat with you today just about some of your experiences as a black women physician. And so can you talk first about maybe some of the challenges that you've had thus for in your career. Sure, I think that's a good question, And of course all of our experiences are different, but there are certainly some themes that I've had. So if I go back to medical school, there were some challenges academically, and I guess with this feeling of being enough and deserving to either and be on the path of becoming a physician, because in college, my pre medical advisor basically told me that maybe medicine wasn't the right path for me and discourage me from pursuing medicine based on my g p A and my grades at that time. After my first year of college, I had a two point seven g p A, so she wasn't very encouraging, and with the support of my family, I continue to pursue the pre medical route and even with academic challenges, was able to get into medical school. But there was always that feeling in the back of my mind that I didn't necessarily deserve to be here, which may be a common issue that a lot of black physicians have, that imposter syndrome. Yeah, and I think, you know, it's so interesting because I feel like I have heard lots of black women have a very similar story, right, like of being advised against trying for medical school, or you know, someone kind of early in their life talking about the fact that maybe this might not be the best route for them. So I think that that probably happens more often than we even maybe are aware of. Absolutely, and it's it's so unfortunate because there's so much potential in our community to become black physicians and we need more of us out there. M hmmm. So maybe that is a place to start, just like even before some of the challenges, like after becoming a physician, but the challenges maybe even in undergrad and through your mad school training. And maybe are there any tips that you have for someone who may be interested in pursuing medical school and like not quite sure of how to manage the process. Sure, So the number one thing that I'm passionate about is mentoring those that are coming behind me. And I think it's so important to have somebody who looks like you, who's doing what you want to do, because if you don't see it it, then you may think it's unattainable or not able to be achieved. So definitely getting a mentor, and it doesn't matter if you don't know what specialty or what field, or if you don't even know if you want to become a physician, it's important to have a mentor who you can talk to about how you're feeling what your plans are, So that would be number one. Some of the challenges that I faced during medical school and residency was I did have to repeat my board certification exams every single one, so step one, step two, and step three, and I think that a lot of it came from personal issues going on at the time, and then also this test anxiety, just like how I talked about that feeling of not being enough from an early age, I remember ap calculus in high school just having a lot of difficulty in that class, and that perpetuated and follow of me with subsequent important exams that I had to take. So test anxiety may be an issue that others face as well. A lot of my mentees have that test anxiety, and there's no shame in getting help. So I encourage my mentees to go to office hours meet with the professor. Make sure that they know your name, because I spent a lot of time going to my professor's office just to verbally go through concepts and topics, and they know you and they understand how hard you're trying, and they may also give tips on what they're going to ask on the exam. The third thing that I would say is to definitely have enough emotional support. My family and I were very close, so with each of the challenges that I had to face, they were my cheerleaders. They would remind me of who I am um and tell me the truth when I had all these thoughts saying no, you can't do it. So, whether it's close friends or family, you need that support system, that community that will build you up when you're not feeling so great. You know, as you're talking, I'm just listening to you know, because I think sometimes people think, like you get to miss school and then like that is the last hurdle, But clearly there are all these additional hurdles that you kind of have to overcome on routes to you know, becoming like a board certified physician, right, And so I'm glad to hear you talking about, you know, how you overcame the obstacles of like not passing your board exams the first time and like keeping up and continuing to try. Are there other things that you would contribute your success and kind of overcoming those hurdles beyond the support system, Like what other kinds of things really helped you to kind of get past that hurt living your life right. UM, definitely positive self affirmations. I have to talk to myself a lot and try and undo the brainwashing that I had received during my training, and every day just tell myself the truth of who I am. And it's probably within the last one or two years that I finally am firm in my beliefs and it's nobody can tell me who I am because I'm I'm so grounded in that. If I were to talk about issues during residency that I think are common amongst black women, I can't speak for the black male experience, but just navigating microaggressions and feeling like an outsider or as another I think that's a very important area to touch on because we don't necessarily talk about it a lot, and a lot of the feedback that I've gotten from my mentees is they just don't know how to navi get those situations because we have the stereotype, unfortunately, that we're angry black women, So we have to I feel like we're wearing several masks while we're in training just to be perceived as non threatening or intelligent enough, or that we are competent. So those are some themes that I've noticed as well. And you mentioned something a little earlier that I want to go back to, this idea that you needed to kind of undo the brainwashing that you had experienced in training. Can you say more about that. Sure? So, I think we have about fifty thoughts during the course of the day, and I had a lot of negative self talk, and every day whenever I had a thought, I had to replace it with the truth. So, for example, one of my mantras and it's also on my website, is that I have everything within myself to succeed, and just saying that over and over again that I don't necessarily need to look outside of myself to accomplish my dreams and my goals. That everything I need, so the grit, the determination, the perseverance, the knowledge or the ability to acquire knowledge, and all the skills that I need to be a physician, and not even just as a physician, but as a human being, they're all already inside of me. I just have to convince myself over and over again that that is the truth that I already harbor those traits. Do you feel like there were things kind of inherent in the training that made you question like whether you were okay to do this. So a lot of us we come into residency. We've completed medical school, so we've gotten that certification, and then we may come into residency with a culture shock of Okay, I'm the physician. I have to make those decisions. And there's just little things that happen that can discourage black physicians on their their path. I'll give an example. So if you don't fit a certain mold of the type of resident that maybe the program is looking for, it does kind of put you into a box, into this territory of maybe people seeing you as other and not trusting you initially. So I had to do a lot of work to build that trust amongst my colleagues and faculty and staff to prove that I deserve to be in training. I didn't talk about race at work, and that was very intentional because it's a sensitive topic. But I did find another black resident who was my friend, and we were able to have those discussions about what was going on during our training, and it just seemed like a lot of things were subjective. So you could be doing fine, You're meeting all the moll stones, and then it's kind of like an all of a sudden, the environment shifts and maybe somebody doesn't like you, and then they start building a case against you. And I've had several mentees tell me that same story of I was doing fine and then all of a sudden, things just shifted. It's an area that I had to tread lightly and navigate because there are those repercussions that can happen if you speak up. And I think there's a lot of fear because we're in a vulnerable position. We don't have the power and or people have our our future in their hands, so to speak, and it's just a tough situation to navigate. Yeah, yeah, And that kind of leads me to another question just thinking about you know, because a lot of what you're sharing are the experiences that a lot of black women have kind of just navigating professional circles and you know, climbing corporate letters and those kinds of things, and a lot of the situations we find ourselves and can actually lead to like lots of anxiety, you know, questioning yourself and really a detriment to your mental health. But then I wonder, are you also afraid of like reaching out for help, because what does that maybe signify about your ability to continue in your program, or is there a question of is she fit to be a physician? Right exactly. That's a very important point. So we're all I think most of us are Type A people, and we may have done well our whole lives and may not be comfortable asking for help because as it may be seen as a weakness. But I encourage everybody if you need help, to reach out for help, and it may not be in your medical school or your residency, and maybe seeking professional help from a therapist, from your pastor, or if you have any religious beliefs, just seeking that support and having somebody who you can talk to. I did actually have a spiritual mentor during residency um to discuss things that were going on and just having that person who was on my side praying for me. That was very important in addition to my family. If you wanted to see therapy, like when you're in medical school or when you're in your residency training, is that something that you are required to share with your attendings or your medical school faculty, or is that something that you can just pursue without the worry that somebody else will be told? You can absolutely do that without letting anybody know. The difficulty comes with our schedule. So as an l b G I N I was up by five and then probably didn't get home until seven o'clock. So the regular hours for therapy are nine to five, so it's very difficult to it's difficult to schedule that time. UM in medical school, it might be a little bit easier because you automatically have weekends off for the most part. Residents, you might be on call on the weekend, so there are some therapists that are open on the weekends. In addition, now that we have all this technology, there are apps that can maybe sustain you. So better Help and also talk Space are two that I would recommend. And you can be paired up with a licensed therapist and you can chat with them once a week. And I think that's important to just check in with somebody frequently and not have a reactive mindset. We're okay, now I'm in such a deep dark place. Now I'm going to seek help. It's more of a maintenance therapy, just like if somebody had a chronic condition, they're gonna take their medication or blood pressure or what have you. You're maintaining that treatment so that you are less likely to get into dark place in the future. And it also seems like there are some things just kind of inherent in the process of training for to become a physician that also like don't work best with your mental health, like the long shifts, right, and the disturbances to sleep and you know that kind of thing, And so it is really important to kind of be mindful of, you know, like the impact. And of course, I mean, you're studying medicines and you know how all of that impacts you. But it's kind of a part of what the job calls for. So what kinds of things helped you to kind of manage your mental health um during that training And what kind of suggestions would you offer to other either students or physicians in training. Sure, that's a good question. I used to be very reactive, meaning, oh man, I don't feel so great, so now I'm going to do all these things. And then I shifted my perspective to having a list. I call it my arsenal. I have a whole list of things that I can try when I'm not feeling all that great, and it's my wellness list. So listening to music, I love afrobeats and gospel music, talking to family, physical exercises at the top as well, and my spiritual health is is also up there. Making sure I'm getting enough exercise during the week because you're releasing those feel good hormones. As much sleep as I can get. I if I have to have a choice between eating and sleeping, I'm going to choose sleep because when I feel rested, I know I can focus, I have the energy, and I'll worry about the food part later, which is it's also kind of sad, but um, I think that's important. Other things that I like to do is physically removing myself. So this was during training, I would go to New York City and visit my sister so that I'm not necessarily in the same city as where I'm training. It's a change of environment and interacting with people who I love and care about that definitely reset my my mood and my perspective. So those are just a few things on my list that I go to first that have really helped me during my training. And you already talked a little bit about some of the microaggressions, and I know some of what we've seen in our community from the physicians talk about microaggressions they experience even from patients, right, So patients not acknowledging them as a physician in the room, or you know, saying like let me speak to your supervisor or something like that, which I think, and this is the inherent nature of micro aggressions, right, is that it leaves you question like what is this about? Like is this good? I'm black? Is it because woman? You know? Like what is this about? Right? And so can you talk just about like how you've maybe being able to like lead on other women to kind of get some support for those microaggressions or how have you handled those? I think that's a good point. So the thing about microaggressions is that you question am I crazy? And having somebody that you can bounce off the situation too is very helpful. So I talked about my friend and we talked about the different situations that we're going through, and that really helped to validate my experience and validate her experience. And then over time with Instagram, I was able to find a lot of other black O, b g, I, m S and other specialties that I could reach out to and also validate myself. So I think that's such a powerful tool to find a are black female physicians that look like you and are going through the same training process and you don't feel so alone. Yeah, I mean, and I'm glad that you mentioned being able to connect with people from Instagram and other social media, right, because again, you know, sometimes you find yourself as one of a few, or if not the only, right in your programs. So being able to connect with other people who may have similar experiences, I think is really important. That's one of my passions. So I started in two thousand and eighteen March two thousand eighteen a mentorship program that's definitely grown over the years where I am matching women who are black and Latin X who are pursuing a path towards being a US physician with current physicians who are also black and Latin X. So it's a huge undertaking, but I definitely feel lots of fulfillment from doing it because a lot of people that come and talk to me on Instagram, a common theme was I don't have a mentor, and I just think that's so unfortunate because we have so much advice to give, and most of my advice is based on things that I didn't do correctly, And I think we have a lot of powerful tools within our community to guide those that are coming behind us. Yeah, I mean, and you were talking earlier about how you know, some of your mentees have expressed kind of getting to this certain place in their program and then like everything changes. And my guess is that some of that is because there probably are not a lot of people who look like us making the decisions, right. And so even though you know, of course all skin folks akin folk kind of like they say, right, but I do think it adds to the variety of perspectives in the room, right, And so you know, there are more people at the table to be able to weigh in on decisions about trainees and things like that. But if there are not a lot of people who look like us, then there's not even a chance for maybe that contact to answer the situation. Absolutely, And just to give some numbers behind that, of the one point one million active physicians, only two percent are black female physicians, so we're just pretty much sprinkled out there. So it's tough to find that support. But when you find it, definitely latch onto that person and they can make your experience a lot better. I was not aware that that number was so small, I think because I went to Xavier Um University of Louisiana, so a lot of you know, my classmate think colleagues or black women, and they graduated with me and now they're physicians. And I'm also very intentional about like having an all black women medical team. But I live in Atlanta, so it's easier to do that, right, So I was not aware that that number was so small. So, yeah, that is that does mean that there definitely are not a lot of you. And then when you do find someone who you can, you know, have a supportive relationship, if it seems like it becomes that much more critical. Right, absolutely. But I think the other part of that, though, is is that because there are so few of you, then even though your heart maybe in mentoring, that is an additional thing now that you're adding to all of your busy schedule, right And so you know, even I've heard black women professors in the medical schools talk about like the burden. Of course, you know, many of them love to do it, but it is an additional thing that their colleagues are not doing. That adds to the workload. Absolutely, I don't even know how many mentees I have, but between college and residency, I probably had three hundred that I can kind of give a ballpark. And even there was a three week period recently where I had an enrollment of two hundred new two new mentees. So it's so hard to keep up, but that need is there. It's definitely there. So other things that you can think about in terms of like just the medical school training, like are there suggestions or things you've already thought like, oh, if they added these kinds of things are included, this kind of stuff, it could be a better situation for black women who are in training. This is a tough question because I'm only reflecting on what I went through, but I think, just okay, I think having maybe summits or meetings that aren't through a school or not affiliated with the school, kind of like a sister circle where we can share that knowledge without the fear of repercussion, so like an anonymous meeting. It sounds so weird, but that's the idea that I have, and that's how I meet with a lot of people. Because I don't necessarily want it to be through an institution or anything. I just want to impart that knowledge so they can go out and and thrive. So if there's a way of making it less like under the table, that would be great. But I think that's where we are right now, just imparting that knowledge, like pulling people to the side, Like I see another sister, she's she's coming behind me, and I pull her to the side and I have a talk with her, like this is how this is how things are, This is how things are gonna go. Like just not a warning, but just yeah, right like that, I'm here. You know that if there are things that come up, then I can be a resource potential. Yeah, So are there not UM like organizations or associations that exist that would help with something like this, Like is there like an organization of like National Black Women Physicians or National Black Positions or something like that. Are their organizations that exist that might be able to help with the of this that you've certainly there certainly are so. One of the ones UM is s n m A and they have frequent meetings and it's specifically for minority students who are on their path to becoming physicians. And that's an excellent resource. UM even if you go through the women's associations I'm sure you can find people in our community within those larger organizations. Um, A lot of it is doing your own research. And like I said before, I found people through Instagram. So even if you don't find somebody through those large umbrella organizations using social media and connecting with people, there are a lot of people, a lot of mentees that I've met in person just from them reaching out to me through Instagram. So if I'm in a city that's near them, we might meet up and have a chat. But they're definitely organizations that exist. But having that organic relationship, I think it takes an extra step part of the person in training to find somebody who can really look out for them. Mm hmmm, Yeah, I mean, and you know, all we've talked about is are a lot of what we talked about is like having to take these extra steps. So we've also talked about like how grueling your schedule is right, and so you can see how sometimes you know, people are really probably just silently struggling because they don't feel like they have the time to reach out and find all of these extra resources. Yeah, So are there any books or other resources that you have found particularly helpful on your journey that you'd like to share. I love all Brunet Brown books, and the most recent one that I enjoyed is Braving the Wilderness, a Quest for true belonging and the Courage to stand Alone. That was a very good one. Um. The second one is called Grit, The Power of Passion and Perseverance. It's by Jela Duckworth. And then another one. So another issue is setting boundaries and just being clear as to what you will and will not take. So there's a book called Boundaries, When to Say Yes, How to Say No, to Take Control of your Life by Henry Cloud and John Townsend. So I think those three books are a good starting point for people. UM. Of course you can listen to podcasts. There's a podcast for everything. So I definitely learned a lot from doing that. UM and a lot of empowerment podcasts I listened to, So there's a lot of resources out there. Podcasts might actually be better, especially on those drives to and from work. Um, during the downtime at work. You may not be able to read a physical book, right, but you could do like an audiobook or some of these podcasts exactly. Yeah, So I want to go back because you mentioned the boundaries, and that is not something we talked about about what that looks like while you are a physician or becoming a physician, because there are a lot of demands, of course made on your time and your resources. So what kinds of things have been helpful to you in setting boundaries? Sure, So after my intern year, I did a reflective process and I noted that I was taking a lot of work home, so dictating and just a bunch of busy work that I would take home. So I made the decision I'm not going to take work home unless it's an emergency. And I actually kept that through the last part of my residency training and even now as an attending physician, I don't take work home. It's difficult because you may have to spend a little extra time at work, but just setting that cut off of when I come through the door of my home, that's my safe space and work is not gonna penetrate into my home and kind of spill over and overflow, and having that boundary has definitely made my home life a bit more peaceful. That also includes talking about work at home. It's very limited now and some thing so if you have a difficult patient or a difficult case that may require a little bit more time to think and reflect. But I really try not to bring that into my home, so if I were to talk to a professional about it, that would probably be a better avenue than maybe burdening family with that information. I love that you have kind of sit very kind of clear cutoffs for your time and like this is what happens here, and you know, when you can compartmentalize like that, sometimes it definitely is easier, right And something I haven't shared. So the last week of my intern year, unfortunately, my husband passed away and that was a sudden shock and has definitely made me reflect a lot on how I want my life to be in the future. That's definitely shaped the boundaries that I set from my life now. So I'm very protective of my time with my family and my own personal time to take for myself, so I don't feel bad when I have to say no to people. I think that's the biggest lesson that I've learned over the course of the last almost five years since he passed. Mm hmm, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So where can we connect with you? Dr Dancy? You mentioned a website, so you share your website please, as well as any social media handles that you'd like to share. Sure the website is life by tosin l I F E B Y t O s I N dot com. And then on Instagram, same same handle Life by Tosan. And then I do have a Twitter that I'm trying to you know, get with the kiddies, get with the millennials, um to use and it's the same handle Life by Toison, so you can find me there too. Perfect Well, thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to chat with us. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure. I'm so glad Dr o Denci was able to share her expertise with us today. To learn more about her and to check out the resources that she shared, be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session, and please remember to share this episode with two people in your circle, and don't forget to share your takeaways with us on either Twitter or in your I G stories using the hashtag TBG in session. If you're searching for a therapist in your area, be sure to check out the theres directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory, and if you want to continue digging into this topic and meet some other sisters in your area, come on over and join us in the Yellow Couch Collective where we take a deeper dive into the topics from the podcast and just about everything else. You can join us at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash y c C. Thank you all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care,