While therapists are often revered for our contributions to the mental wellness of others, our culture can also be guilty of denying them us humanity with assumptions that we’re always willing to provide therapeutic advice at the drop of a dime or that we don’t feel things too.
Today, I brought the group chat back together to discuss how therapists are showing up in our everyday lives. Dr. Ayanna Abrams and Dr. Joy Beckwith joined me to discuss the importance of setting boundaries with friends and family when seeking therapeutic advice, how to ensure we’re not allowing our work to bleed into our personal lives, and the biggest misconceptions people tend to have about therapists' lives.
About the Podcast
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Where to Find Our Guests
Dr. Joy Beckwith
Dr. Ayanna Abrams
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Our Production Team
Executive Producers: Dennison Bradford & Maya Cole Howard
Senior Producer: Ellice Ellis
Associate Producer: Zariah Taylor
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session three sixty eight of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after a word from our sponsors. Why do friendship breakups sometimes hurt more than romantic ones? How do I make friends in a new city? Is it true that women can't actually be good friends to one another? I'm exploring all of these questions and so much more in my book, Sisterhood Heels, now available in paperback at your local independent bookstore or at sisterhood Heels dot com. Grab a copy for you and your girls, and let's talk about it. While therapists are often revered for our contributions to the mental wellness of others. Our culture can also be guilty of denying us humanity with assumptions that we're always willing to provide therapeutic advice at the drop of a dime, or that we don't feel things too. Today, I've brought the group chat back together to discuss how therapists are showing up in our everyday lives. First, we have doctor Ayana Abrams, a licensed clinical psychologist who works under her solo practice, Ascension Behavioral Health. She's the co founder of Not So Strong, a mental health program curated for black women to strengthen their sense of self and connection to others through the use of vulnerable storytelling. We also have doctor Joy beckw who is a psychologist, resident radio expert, speaker, and college professor. Her passion for bridging the gap between the mind body connection has allowed her to work with executives, entertainers, professional athletes, and entrepreneurs nationwide. Some of the points we discuss are the importance of setting boundaries with friends and family when seeking therapeutic advice, how to ensure we're not allowing our work to bleed into our personal lives and the biggest misconceptions people tend to have about therapists lives. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please sharing with us on social media using the hashtag TVG in session, or join us over in the sister circle to talk more about the episode. You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Well, hello friends, thank you so much for joining me again. We have reconvened, but back in our little zoom boxes, not on stage this time. Kind of said feels good to be good to be always a pleasure, of course, of course, So today we are talking about therapists as humans, so really the personhood of therapists, because I think sometimes people engage with us almost as empathy robots, as opposed to like hold people with our own stuff going on, and I think people are sometimes surprised that go therapists have feelings too. So before we jump into the conversation, though, I don't know that we have actually like fully introduced y'all to the people in terms of how long you've been practicing like you're areas of specialty. So doctor Joy, can you start off and just let us know, like how long you've been practicing in like what it is you actually do as a psychologist.
Yeah.
Absolutely, So I've been practicing since two thousand and fourteen. Well, I've been private practice since twenty fourteen. I was at a hospital before then. My specialty is trauma, but I see a lot of individuals who have depression, anxiety. I work with a lot of what I call like high functioning individuals, so high functioning athletes, entertainers, CEOs, and especially entrepreneurs. But trauma is my specialty. I am a team psychologist for a local professional basketball league, so I do some consult work there, and I'm the co founder off for Atlanta and we specialize in trauma. Do a lot of trauma work, anxiety work, depression work, so just all the things for mental wellness, especially if you are out here like life is life and so really really busy in your respect to space and what about you, Dot Diana.
So I have been in practice in Atlanta since twenty twelve, solo practice. The name is Asension Behavioral Health, where I specialize in mood disorders, depressive disorders, anxiety disorders, by polar disorder. I work with a lot of graduate students, medical professionals from medical school and physicians. I work with a lot of entrepreneurs, and I also do an arm of my practice does corporate consultings or corporate wellness navigating kind of the DEI space and corporations more so towards racial equity in the workplace. And you'll see me on podcasts and all the such right talking about various things.
Beautiful, beautiful. So I'm curious for both of you, what are some of the challenges that have come up for you being a psychologist kind of like the tension between being a mental health professional but also being like a full human. What are some of the unexpected challenges that have come up for you there?
I think one of the things that I would say terms of challenge, it's just I think goes back to what you were saying earlier, doctor Joyl where people don't expect, you know, you to have feelings or to be just as impacted about something.
As they are.
It's like, well, no, like that hurts, and so I feel the pain as well. And I think also whether it's like having feelings, having empathy, like being impacted, but also I think like having the answers, I think because this is what we do. Like people do think like okay, so what do you think or what's best here? And it's like, well, no, no, no, there are so many factors that influence decision, and so it's like I don't have all the answers. I do have feelings and I feel I get sad all the things as well, like I'm impacted by the world just like you are. So I think that's a challenge of like, girl, I don't have the answer. I'm still processing too.
What I would add to that is that I think that people struggle a lot with me, and I think therapists general like having boundaries, right, like not being available for certain things, whether that be emotionally, whether that be advice. I think it shows up in my practice right where I just need to have this availability because someone's in pain and needs to be seen when they want to be seen or need to be seen. So I see that a lot, and definitely in more personal relationships. I do notice this dynamic online as well, though, that when therapists show up and have problems with certain things or feel annoyed by stuff, there's a sense that like you shouldn't have quote unquote the negative feelings you're a therapist, or you shouldn't struggle with things because you're a therapist. And I literally have had people in my personal life say, but you know how to get out of that, you know how to not feel that. So I don't even really understand how you could feel anxious about this or how you could feel upset about this because you can work yourself out of it. It feels really dehumanizing when people do that, and they quite literally don't understand that we cannot work on ourselves in that way. People get very confused when I say I have a therapist. They're just like you, all right, So then they also make this further association as something must be really wrong if I have a therapist, So how could I be a therapist who has a therapist. So depending on the relationship, people go further with that. But it's usually about this lack of allowance to be vulnerable essential or to have vulnerabilities that shows up a lot.
And Nade what would you say lead to some of that confusion or a misinterpretation of who a therapist is, that we wouldn't have our own therapists, or that we have all the answers like what do you think contributes to people thinking.
That, well, we look at a personal relationships without going too far depending on who was the person right, it serves them right to not have to navigate my feelings. It's beneficial for them for me to either have all the answers or not need this or whatever it is. So I think depending on the person and the relationship, it can show up from that place. I think too, it's people's lack of understanding of vulnerability and not seeing therapists as humans. So they really just don't see that we would also need and deserve the same kind of help and care that other people have. So I'll use you try to give the example of like, well, your medical doctor has a physician. I've literally had somebody say like they shouldn't need one. But for the most part, when I say that, people understand it, like if your medical doctor breaks a leg or does this, like they still get to go to a doctor. Why would it be any different for us? But it seems like, again, because people see us in this very limited way in the room, they view us as omniscient, they view us as all knowing, then it really doesn't click that we don't have the answers to things. So there's this kind of strange way where I think people put therapists on a pedestal as the people who can save a lot of stuff. Well, at the same time, there's a lot of people who don't trust therapists. So I think depending on who you're coming across, you'll get either respond to your vulnerability.
That's great points And doctor Joy, you mentioned this idea that you have all the advice or people will come to you and say like, well, what do you think? How do you navigate that?
So we're talking about like outside of the therapy session, So I have a lot of loose sayings. Sometimes people are like what do you think. I'm like, no, no, I don't think. So that you understand that this is a different type of relationship and I may say something in this context of this relationship that isn't necessarily what I would say in a therapeutic relationship, right because those dynamics are different. But also knowing when I'm not supposed to have any advice or I'm not supposed to have the answers in those.
Spaces and just being okay with it.
I really don't know or I don't have any thoughts about that, or saying like I think should talk to your therapist. I think really clear boundaries about this is my friends circle, if this is my family. I love being able to turn off the work that I do as much as you can when you can turning it off there to say I don't have the answers or I don't really know what do you think, and being able to give it back to them, trying not to get into this role just because they expect us to have the answers does not mean I have to have the answers, and knowing that I don't have to wear that hat, because once you start having all the answers, then of course they come back to you because you typically have all.
Of the answers.
So I usually sometimes say I don't have like what do you think? I don't think, or like okay, we're going to ask out to joy about it and I'm like, let's not, let's not so, but I make it in a way where they understand I'm not being funny, but sometimes I don't have the answers and having really healthy about just knowing like uh uh no, you don't want me.
In that, and it does feel like a tight line to walk, because I mean in your friendship circles and in your other relationships, people naturally like ask for advice, and I think that that's human, but it does feel like there is a different expectation because of what you do, maybe as a mental health professional, that there is like an added layer of like, okay, a professional opinion as opposed to like just a girlfriend opinion.
Absolutely, and the weight they put on our answers or even if you do have a thought like you know, oh, girl, like whatever you want to say, it's like, no matter what anyone else says, because you are a professional, because this.
Is what you do.
The weight that they put on your response. And sometimes I say, like, you know, I don't know, but I think you should probably talk, so I'll give just a little bit of something like to guide because you do have some thoughts, but no, like, I also don't want that dynamic where I'm responsible for something or start to wear that hat in my friend relationships, Like I just want to be like joy in these relationships. And I think I also have really good friends who they may what do you think you think that's a problem, Like, girl, you know, it's a problem but they're not really digging deep and actually expecting to have therapeutic conversations because they know, like we are friends for real in real life. But yeah, the weight that they put on our responses because this is what we do professionally is pretty significant.
Anything to answer that back day, No, I.
Agree with that, and I was gonna add the weight that they put on that and this assumption that we can't wait to help that I want to be able to answer this question or give you advice because I think I know the right answer. Like I will have mostly like family members. If I say they're saying something and I don't jump in, They're just like, are you not going to say anything? What do you think about this? And I'm like, I'm listen. I don't feel any different than such and such does or such and such does, But they kind of assume this like eagerness to help that because we have the skills to help other people, that we want to be using our skills all over the place at breakfast, at brunch, at the family reunion, that we just want to help when we see or hear that they might be a problem, that that's where we want to be spending our time a lot of people don't see this as a profession of ours that we're just supposed to be these bleeding hearts, which I also didn't add before, like something that that surprises me. It doesn't surprise me anymore. But that whole bleeding heart piece is that when any conversations come up around fees or rates, right, there's a different response that I get when money is involved in stuff because people have this association of well, that shouldn't be something that costs that much. That should be something again that I should be able to access because it's about health and because it's about care for people. So you putting a barrier what they see as a barrier to this means that we're doing something that's awry in this field.
I think it goes back to what you're saying earlier, doctor A, like they expect us to be all knowing but not necessarily all experiencing, and it's like, well, no, like I also experience those feelings. I also may have some anxiety around the things that I want to be able to do this year and being able to do those things or carry those things out. So it's just making sure that we add the human aspect to it like no, like, I also have to make a living as well, and my goal is to be able to do both, to be able to give you great service, to be able to be here and care for you, but also to be able to afford margin.
You wouldn't work for free. Why would you expect us to work for free? You literally would not work for free and or a discounted in them like we are expected to do.
Right.
So I'm curious because we know that so much of the work that we do as therapists is mediated through who we are as persons, right as people. How do you balance or set boundaries around what kinds of clients you are seeing or when a client's stuff kind of activates your stuff, what kinds of things are in place, or how do you think about that as a therapist to kind of both protect yourself and the clients jumping.
Into my therapy sessions, Doctor Joey my business because I have a right I had. We know I have a soft spot and I had to have a very hard time saying no to black women who want to be clients in my practice, and I still have a hard time with that now. I have boundary issues around that. So I'm probably seeing too many clients right because of that, So I think again kind of consultation supervision, right, that the things that we've been trained right to make sure that we are doing to support ourselves. But I know that one of my softer spots or kind of vulnerabilities is black women are black people in pain. And I really need to remember the aspects of my burnout and how it shows up and when I'm doing too much. And I've had to really come into that practice and attunement the last five or so years because I wasn't screening right in a certain way in terms of like who I was taking in my practice. I was just so concerned about the systemic barriers and not wanting to be one of those barriers and wanting to make sure that people got good care, but also having to really remind myself that I am human. There's but so many hours in a day that it is safe for me and for clients in terms of how many people I'm seeing and how much time I'm spending with clients that I can do but so much paperwork and still be on top of my business kind of acumen in my practice as well as serving clients well and having to really grieve that I can't do more, that I can't see as many clients as I want to do. And that's been this ongoing practice for me, the grieving, the boundary work, the acceptance of my humanity, I mean, just what that means in terms of my limits. So maybe finding some other ways to have larger impact because I can't take you all in my kind of one to one or one to two practice.
In terms of couples, Yeah, that makes sense. I think I did some of the exact same things, doctor A. Just the heaviness that I feel when I feel like, ooh, this person would really be a good fit, or I feel that I could really help this person, but also knowing that I don't have the capacity and being able to sit with that. I think for me, I had to navigate or had to explore what's the story that I'm telling, Like what's driving this need for me to want to see as many people as possible and the effect of that like Okay, so now you're sad and now you're feeling down. Are you afraid? What are you afraid of? And also the narrative that like, hey, there are some other excellent people that can provide this service or it does not have to be mean, Like as much as I would love for it to be me, but it's like, if not me, I have a great nice circle of capable therapists, Like let me send you to this person. I know you'd be in really good hands. But I think it starts off with screening really, really well as much as possible, so you'll know, like, hey, who do I work well with, and trying to be able to find that ideal client that you feel that's a really good match early on, and then definitely the consultation, the supervision, the groups have been very very helpful, and then knowing that it does not have to be me. It does not have to be me. I can also refer them out to somebody, but it is really tough.
Because it's like, well, you know, well.
I could put them in on Friday at twelve and it's like, okay, so what are you gonna have lunch? But being able to sit in that space like no, you can't. You said you were going to do notes during that time, but really thinking about by you doing that, what are you giving up? So you're adding this person and what are you taking away from yourself, whether it's my time that I set aside to do notes or to basically just have lunch.
You know, something that I wish we had more training on in our or at least I know my graduate program didn't do the best at this. I think that a lot of therapists, emerging therapists, and even therapists I guess I'm considered mid career now, really struggled with internalizing the brokenness of the mental health care system, so really internalizing this responsibility that, oh, I know that there are barriers so let me not perpetuate the barriers in this. We know the barriers and the stigma associated with black people. So oh my goodness, if a black person has done all the work to do this courageous thing and ask for therapy, I can't turn them away now because I've internalized that they not ever going to try again. Right, So, it was all that stuff that was really really taking over that I still have to keep an eye on, but I've put some distance in between it being my responsibility to like save the mental health care system, right that none of us can do that as one therapist or even like a group practice. But I don't think that that is offered to us I don't think we are taught about the importance of that kind of differentiation, but I know that for a long time, I really took it in as my responsibility to not be the broken system.
Yeah, and then doctor A also thinking about too though, if we do feel to capacity or if we are taking on all of that, what is it due to us? We talked about burnout earlier and just making sure that we don't show up like you know, Okay, finally we schedule them, we have them in for a session, but are you getting the best me? Because we know what we're like when we're seeing we know what our sweet spot is, we know what it's like when we're really full of energy and ready to see the clients that we see, and knowing that if we're over that limit, am I doing them a disservice? Like we talk about doing no harm. It's like, okay, so what point am I exhausted? What point am I tired? And the things where you know, I love reading and just finding articles and things for clients sometimes outside of session, and it's like, well, if you're so packed, then you're tired. It's like, okay, I'm going to bed instead of doing that stuff. That I normally would do in order to assist a client. So really just taking it back to, yeah, there are these barriers and it's tough, but I want to make sure that when you do see me, if you do see me, that you're having the best experience. I'm giving you my best self too.
Such an important point, doctor A. I don't think I ever had that conversation in grad school either, And I think that it is only through conversations with y'all and working with my own therapist that I do realize how much wait, I feel to like you said, give people this good experience and we don't want to become a part of the barriers, and like all of these systemic pieces that I think are really really important for us to think about. And I also love that you shared that because I think it also taps into one of these things that I think is a misconception about therapist that we are not thinking about our clients post session. So this idea that like therapists are only paid friends kind of thing until once you're gone, we're not thinking about you. And I think what you're articulating is not that we don't ever turn it off, but that we are always I think in a lot of ways, thinking about how to improve the system, how to do the best things for our clients. How do you all keep a balance there to not be thinking about that all the time.
I think it goes back to what it was saying earlier too, like it does it penetrates all of your little open mind space because we want to do good work. We want to do work that is expansive. I think it goes back for me the supervisions, the consultation and having like our friend group, being able to say, okay, friend, do you have time for that? Okay, friend, how is that going to look or where are you going to put that at?
Having somebody hold me.
Accountable for these big ideas or these big dreams or oh okay, yep, and tell me where you're putting that with all of your free time. Because we do think, we do care, and there is so much like we see the difficulties, right, we see the systemic problems, and we want to be the answer. We want to be a part of the solution and not the problem. But having someone say, Okay, what's another idea where it's not all on us, It's not all on me to fix it, right, or if you do want to do something like a group, it's like, okay, well you cannot be just you doing this group. Can you split it with another therapist? You have the first one, they have the second one. So thinking about how you are able to still do the work but you don't have to do all of their work yourself, and being in spaces to explore other opportunities of still targeting the problem without taking yourself out in the process.
Yeah, I think what's been really helpful for me to strike that balance, which still I do practice boundaries around it, is using other resources. So I think earlier in my career it would be like, oh, the therapy space has to be the space that creates all this change. But now there's so many more podcasts, there's articles on stuff, there's stuff on TV or in the media that's doing a more kind of ethical job of showing care and kind of showing mental health concerns. So I now will balance out a bit more of those resources with the hour that we have together. But I'm gonna send you a podcast episode that talked exactly about what we talked about, and you can do some learning on your own, right so that I do not feel all of this pressure to be the one space that gives you all of this. So for me, it's been really helpful in terms of taking in other resources and just having this breath of resources just filtering through my brain. When I do think about clients outside of session to be able to share some things with them. What I usually need to practice boundaries around is because I'm listening to so many podcasts because I'm reading so many articles, I ain't gonna be talking to you all time every time I read something, so I just need to be like, Okay, I can share this with them in the next session. I don't have to share this with them in between. But offering or kind of creating those adjuncts like a book is also really helpful. So me also being able to lead them to other resources I think also augments the work. So I personally feel less pressure to be the space. And I know that's about me and my ego stuff as therapist, but it's been helpful to redirect them to other resources.
And I think in terms of balancing doctor Joyce, so that my brain is typically thinking about what can I offer whatever I read that may be helpful.
Oh oh, this is really good.
It helped me to have this diverse friend group where they will say, oh, this is what we're reading. And so I don't want to be left at FOMA when it comes to oh, my friends are reading about this or they're talking about this show. So it forces me where I really am reading this book or I'm looking for podcasts that may be helpful for someone. It forces me, like to turn that brain off and remember the other part of me, this other side of me, that hey, you actually have friends who go to their own therapists, the don't need for therapy, they don't really want to read about this anxious book or whatever they're talking about another book. It holds me accountable and calls me to the carpet, like you don't have anything to share, like you haven't read any book this year, but books and podcasts that are helpful, and so to do that and to read books and listen to podcasts that are helpful for my work that I do, and to make sure I don't forget about this other part. So that's one of the ways that I turn it off from always thinking. Because people download from the cloud, I'm like, oh, this would be really really good for them. Yeah, so I try to make sure I balance it out with some other stuff and having great friends who are just like or they're sending recipes, they're doing other things to remind you that there's this other part of you than this person that's just like this caregiver.
More from our conversation after the break. So something I know that none of our grad programs really tapped into because of when we were trained is the way that our humanity and personhood has been extended because of social media platforms. Right, So we are people, which means that we are also engrossed in this social media landscape, and so we are using platforms like Instagram, Twitter, TikTok all the things as people, but also as mental health professionals. So I'd love for you to share, like how you manage joy using TikTok as like just joy versus doctor joy on TikTok, Like how do you think through what you share, what you like, what you repost, and your thoughts about like the responsibility that we have as clinicians in using mental health platforms.
So I think that's an excellent question, and that's one of the areas that I struggled with early on. So I have my ask doctor Joy platform, and it took me a while to make. So you may see like, oh, she's not super active on there because I feel a sense of responsibility for whatever I put on there, because there's so many pages out there with information about various topics, and so I felt a heaviness of whatever you put on there. It's almost like they're expecting this to be like really good information. It's your ass start to Joy page, it's your professional page. So being responsible there. But every time I go on there, I don't want to like be in my therapy hat. I want to sometimes look at things that like TikTok, make me buy it or whatever, And so for me, I set some boundaries around when I'm on that page. I had to really turn it off and turn it down because I'm on there and all the algorithms for that are just, you know, everything that moves my heart strings, like all the books, all the therapy books, all the issues of the world, and that page was very heavy for me. So I have to basically decide and when am I going to opt into that hat in that world because I already know what's going to feed me, and then creating this other page where this is more of my whatever else you're interested in, whether it's recipes, and so really knowing just remembering that I am human too, and I don't want to always be in the therapy world and helping world, and I have feelings and then this other side of me. So trying to have boundaries around what I put on the page, knowing that it is a weight and acknowledging for me that I feel that what you put out there, people are like, ooh, what does she have to say about this? Or hey, this is Mental Health Awareness Month? The pool of you have to make five or six posts, Well, do you what feels authentic and what feels good to you? Or if you just want to be on men and see what your friends are doing, do you need to get off of that page because those dms are popping and go to another page. So I had to really wrestle with what is social media going to look like for you? And do you feel like you have to be on all the platforms all the time given all of the information, and the answer for me there was no. I didn't have the capacity to do that and show up the way I want to show up in my friend circles and in my practice.
I am not as developed in this area as Star to back with this. I ain't made it there yet. I'm trying. I ain't made it there. And I've always been in this tussle with social media. So Facebook came about when I was in college. For me, it feels like I did grow up with social media and sharing and just beginning to post stuff. I was twenty years old when I was posting stuff on social media, and my Instagram page, my first one, like originally started as my personal page, and then I started posting mental health stuff and then transitioned it into my business page. So it was always this mix of stuff anyway, it was always this mix of personal people that were there. I mean, I think I struck a fine balance because I'd always say that anything I post, if a client or somebody was to ask me about it, I'm fine with what I post. I don't post anything that I would feel embarrassed or if that feels too vulnerable for me. But I did realize that, and this was even just in the past few years, that my lens when I'm in that business account, when I'm even looking at social media, I'm looking at stuff to make my own to post to like put it into my own words and post it. So even when I believe I was using social media for leisure, it was still content work for me. It was like, oh, yeah, yeah, but I would have added this, so let me turn that into a post next week, like oh, I would say it like this. I'm like, oh, that is something that came up. Let me put my spin on it in this way. And that was the burnout for me that it wasn't this space of leisure or like mindless whatever it is that people scroll social media for. It was always work for me because I'm looking at other people's ideas and this new content thing that came up. Were like, oh, there's this trend to pay attention to, and there's this. So when I then did a personal page a few years ago, that gave me a bit of that break. But still I still find myself doing stuff on my personal page that's related to me being a therapist. I'm still interested in the same things. It's just me using a different page. But who I'm interacting what is different on both pages. But I did recognize that because I'd gone into more content creation, all the content I was seeing was still me thinking about how I could do that and what that looks like. You know, I like that idea. So I'm saving all these things that other people were doing so I can make some content. And what I ended up doing. I think at some point, maybe a few years ago, I was following thousands of people on my business page, and a lot of them were therapists, and I just unfollowed nearly everyone. So I unfollowed thousand of people a few years ago, and I would say it was a lot of therapists because it was just too much. It was too much of me thinking and constantly working. And also in the same thing of like, when you follow a lot of therapists, you are constantly reevaluating yourself, and like, this is something I could be doing, not even for content stuff, but just me everything a therapist says, I'm thinking about for my personal self. So me on following a ton of therapists was really good for my mental health. So I will sometimes recommend, like, don't follow too many of us, because we just always have you thinking about yourself and you need a break from that. I was feeling like I was just a constant self improvement project all the therapists I was following. So now I follow significantly less. I still follow a lot, but I really needed to step away from therapists of Instagram just to preserve the time that I was spending on social media.
Yeah, I have definitely tried to trick my TikTok algorithm into not knowing that I'm a therapist because I'm like, I just wanted to see who did a coach Hall of this Week or one of the fun Baby video. It was like all of those kinds of random things. So I try not to like engage very much in the therapy world on TikTok because Instagram then quickly learns like, oh, she wants to see more of this, right, And I do think you bring up a good point of following too many kind of personal developments, self help kinds of pages then makes you always think there's something wrong that you could be working on and doing things differently. Yeah, So what suggestions would you all have for maybe like newer mental health professionals or people who may be younger in their career in terms of like how to ask themselves some questions about like managing this and like keeping the balance between not only for social media but also just generally when you're thinking about preserving yourself as a therapist versus your humanity and needing to strike a balance there.
I think what worked best for me was for me to be mindful of my energy, so like what gave me energy and then what took away my energy? Just really being aware of that. It's like going back to you, doctor AA. It's like I'm on Instagram a whole lot. You're looking at all of this. Are you leaving that feeling like, Okay, I'm getting ready to go look at puppy clothes, make something to eat, or am I now trying to play with reels for another two hours? I'm really wanting that space to give me energy or to help me disconnect, But is it really occupying more space and doing almost like more damage than is doing good for me? And I'm using damage really lightly. But am I coming off of that feeling rejuvenated, feeling refreshed and feeling like I disconnected? Or did my to do list get longer? Because now I'm about to go and learn how to do reels or some type of dance or whatever. Right, So I was aware of my energy and like what fed me and then what kind of drained me? And being okay with that it's like, okay, so you're going to post more for example, like social media, like for what because the world says you should because you feel like it gets you more visibility, and then really understanding, well you're actually visible, like people are finding you. So really just exploring like what are you doing, why are you doing it? And what works best for you and trying not to be afraid of Hey, this works best for me. And it may be a season like this may be your season where you post a whole lot, do you post a little bit right or you are doing a lot of lives and being okay with being in tune with myself. So I think that was my thing, like what's my energy? Does that feel good to me? Or am I doing it because people say we should be doing this now or this is good? What is it that you need and what's going to get you there? Right? If I need to relax more, is this helping the mission or going against it? Or if I need to be more visible, what does that look like? So I'm doing just enough to do that and not too much. So it was a lot for me, a lot of self exploration and same thing with what I'm reading and how much I'm doing outside of therap Sometimes I'll put together something I'm like, this feels so wonderful. I can't wait for her to get it or him to get it or listen to it, like this is exciting, and doing more of those things that feed my soul and make me feel as if I'm doing really good work in the world, like I'm happy there or oh my gosh, I feel heavier. So it's a lot of like, you know, not vibes, but energy for me, not our alpha vibes. Yeah.
One thing I recommend is having friends or people who are not therapists. My goodness, the therapist bubble is real, and at one point I only talking to therapists, and I would be aghast when I would talk to somebody who's not a therapist, Like people think like this, what are you doing? Like what do you? What do you? You can't say that, and like it really threw me. And I was just like, oh, because I spend all day talking to clients or I'm talking to other therapists. Those are my closest people from graduate school, from internship, from post doc. Because also a piece of like let me talk to the people who get it, who get what my life looks like now, but at the same time, you get it a little bit too much, and I'm a bit disconnected from how a lot of other people think who don't either not necessarily have these skills but just don't have to think and talk like this all the time, or don't have to hold all these things in the same way. So it's been really helpful for me to stay connected to people who, you know, I was friends with before graduate school, people who I might have been able to make friends with while I was in graduate school, people who have made friends with since, who are able to help me tap into those other parts of me when sometimes I might be having a hard time. So staying connected with people who were not in the field, I think could be really helpful. And another thing that's been really helpful for me that I've only done more recently, like reading like leisure books. For a while, I was only reading books from other therapists, self help kind of stuff, because I still wanted to learn and do all these different things personally and professionally. But this past few years, I've been reading murder mysteries, I've been reading romance stuff. I've been reading all these different kind of thrillers, and I'm just like, oh, this is fun. I can get through this book in a few weeks versus taking me three months to get through right these other books that are so heady, that are so like every three pages, I got to sit and reflect and do all this stuff versus being able to move through fiction books and fiction. I hadn't read fiction since before grad school. Up until a few years ago, it was just always taking in something that I could learn from, something that I could apply to my clients, something that could help me in my own therapy. I was constantly thinking about self improvement, mine or others so being. But to get into fiction for the purpose of fiction and documentaries and stuff like that has been a really helpful balance for me and also reminds me that there are other things that exist outside of this field, or other things that exist outside of working on yourself and just being right. Like I said, thrillers, romance, stuff like having different kind of feelings come up, imagination, creativity. I had lost a lot of that because I was so in the field, and that's been really helpful for me to strike a balance having hobbies and not having a hobby that you're trying to turn into a side hustle, but like just a literal hobby, right that you do because you do it and do it with other people even has also been really helpful for me that.
I'd recommend that goes with having that diverse friend group because it happened to me where my friends were like have you.
Read this book?
And I was like, no, I haven't read it, and they're all talking about it, and then the next one you're like, okay, maybe that's just something that came up with and they had dinner, and then the next one is like, oh, have you read this book? And it's like no, because guess what, it doesn't have to do with trauma, mother depression or whatever, so have I read it? But it holds you accounta before like what are you doing? I think friends remind you that there's more to you than like basically you are a therapist, right, and so there's more to you than just being a therapist. It's like, okay, so you're not running with us today? No, Like okay, so you can only say no so many times and they're just like okay, girl, what are you doing? And being mindful like okay, you're not really watering all of these other aspects of you. You have no idea about the shows they're talking about, the books that they're reading, and you haven't been to a lunch at dinner.
So just being in.
Tune with is this who I am? And does this feed like all the parts of me.
I tell you? In twenty thirteen, I was going to dr on a girl's trip and I took the book A Man Search for meeting with me and my friends were like, what are you? And that's not a romantic that the books to take for me? What I saw and sometimes that I've now been taking like fiction and kind of leisure. I saw this as like, finally I have some downtime to read this book. I'll be on a i'll be at the pool, I'll be on a beach, and I can actually get through this dense book. And they were upset with me, like they were like, I cannot believe that that is what you are choosing to do on vacation. And for me, vacation wasn't be present with vacation. Vacation was time to do all the stuff I haven't been able to do that I can bring with me on vacation. And that was an abrupt like girl, What are you doing? What are you doing? They wouldn't let me read the book. One of them gotten to my bag one of the first nights and took I was upset. I'm not saying that I went gracefully, but they didn't allow me to read. And that actually ended up being really really helpful for me, because it turned into me using downtime as time to fill in time that I felt that I lost or just didn't have in my day to day. And that was the antithesis of what I actually wanted to experience in terms of vacation and what I also promote to clients, and that was I will never forget that. That's what I tried do. I really tried to do.
Thank goodness for that intervention.
It's on a school, your whole vacation, anybody else.
I was really gonna go deep and have the sunshine to really reflect. It will allow me just roumin space to do, wasn't it. There wasn't that type of vacation. That wasn't it, and it wasn't going to allow it.
So I appreciate y'all more from our conversation after the break, But I do think that that is something that therapists struggle with like this idea of vacation being an actual vacation and not like just an opportunity to catch up on paperwork, or like, oh, I finally don't have to like do all this so I can do all these other things. It sounds like your support systems have been very helpful in forcing that, But what kinds of other things have been helpful in you changing your mindset around, Like the necessity of vacations where you actually check out.
That's an area that is still being worked on, because it's exactly that where Okay, I'm off the grid for me, vacation meant I'm not seeing clients, and so now I can catch up with all of the notes, I can read this book I've been wanting to read, and it's not at leisure book. It's like, oh, this other book about one of our favorite authors that just came out, So it's all the stuff that I haven't been able to do. It really took people saying you better not touch your phone, or you know what, you're not actually bringing your computer or you know, we're going somewhere like oh, they don't have Wi Fi? First ever won have Wi Fi? But it takes people on the vacation. I just really don't want to be that person too where it's like, oh, where's joy, Like she's going to do some work or she's going to log into this meeting. So for me, it was really all by force, and it was really my support system. I'm still working on. Oh, you deserve rest and rest is important. So I am telling myself all of those things that I'm working on them and trying to strengthen that muscle because I know it, and I you know, I tell myself, like, you don't want to burn out. This is what you actually preach and if you need some time after your vacation to like now do this work where you don't have clients, then to do that. But it has really been by force. It's been trips where is it really worth it for you to pay that much your WiFi or everyone's out you want to be the only one doing notes, like with all these papers, like look at yourself. So it's been forrest and some stern conversations.
I agree, like I said, I'm not fully there. I am the person who has paid for Wi Fi on the plane before, right in order to still kind of get something done because again, I've got four hours where I can't do anything else. Now's the time to do. So what's been helpful for me is that I will and I now have a stack of leisure books that I do want to get to and they're not self help. The only nonfiction ones will be like memoirs and stuff, but no self help or kind of self development. I will also download shows and episodes onto my computer for when I'm traveling, so I have leisure stuff to watch on the plane or when i'm there. Like those are the things that help me to not go into the work related stuff as much as I can. And like I said, usually when I'm traveling, the people who I'm traveling with are not colleagues and it's not a work trip, so they are like, what are you doing you shouldn't be doing, and I'll close your computer. I have not gone to a point where I do not take my work computer. I don't I'm not ready. I'm not ready.
I'll tell you what works there, doctor A. So I almost had a panic attack, but two baby steps. So on my last vacation, the agreement was to not take my computer and to take my iPad. You can still do a whole lot on the iPad. But guess what, I don't know when the last time I used the iPad, so it would take a lot of learning and trying to like scroll and the little keyboard, so it made it more difficult, Like you're really not about to do a whole bunch of notes on your iPad because I don't use it regularly. So it's like baby steps. So I still feel that I can connect to the world if I need to. I don't have as many apps on there, so it's like baby steps, so you don't totally go cold turkey.
My tablet is my work computer essentially, but I need like a Kindle.
I need a kaboodle with the baby version look caboodle like Stething where you know you got all you gotta play is Tetris pac Man.
You know You're about?
Is what I would need.
And again, because I have my I could do most things anyway, but I would need that kind of device, like not having a smartphone getting a flip phone again, that would really need that that doesn't have all of the different distractions because it's very easy for me to go into an email, it's very easy for me to also be working and you would name something. I think it's therapists entrepreneurs. It's the entrepreneur part that gives me. If I worked for probably like an agency, and turned in all my stuff and I'm done at the end of my day and I'm actually done, that's different. But because I am running a business, it's relentless. There's always something to do, so that I know that that makes it harder for me. There's always something to look at and review and a system to pay attention to, and something to improve and something to edit on the back end. So I think that also makes it a lot harder if you are also running a business.
One of the things that does work for me is instead of giving myself all or nothing, I do well with goals and like checkbox. It's like, okay, so you can only do one hour of work today, you can only do blah blah blah, so you can check your email twice. And so I love being able to hold myself accountable giving myself some It's like, well, you're actually not going to be the most pleasant person if I tell you to get off all email the entire day, so you have twice you want to do it at breakfast and lunch or you want to spread that thing out for breakfast and dinner. So really figuring out how can I take care of that little aspect of me that is wondering how the business is going and making sure that there are no major fires and being able to be present too. So give me the kaboodle and give me a little bit of permission.
Let me do that.
I can do that. Boodle starts with a see or okay, because I'm listening, I don't know.
What I think that was something to join made up.
That's not it's a kaboodle. It sounds like something that kids play with, you know, like fancy names doodle.
It's probably not real.
But there is something that is like my first ibhead kind of thing is where he's basically what would.
You give keys a kid's kindle? Right that has all these controls and all that kind of stuff. I can't even go on YouTube basically, Yeah, yeah, to say that I'm thirteen that I can't do nothing on so exactly.
Yeah, you know we can set it up like how old are you? Thirteen? So therefore it's a lot you maybe shut that off.
Yeah, like you can send time limits and all kinds of stuff.
On those kind of things. That's what I do.
So this conversation is a part of our larger celebration of Minority Mental Health Awareness Month in July, and our theme this year is holding space for Healers. And so since you two our mid career past, the early part of your career, I would love for you to wrap us up by sharing something with maybe younger therapists or newer people to the field about how you have persevered and really prevented yourself from maybe experiencing burnout as a professional.
I would say not doing things alone. Ask the questions. I did so many things the first five years, even though I had supports, I had people who I could ask, but I didn't ask questions right. I didn't ask questions about tax stuff. I just was figuring stuff out. I didn't ask questions about business structure stuff. I didn't ask questions about how to set up paperwork and those kinds of things. So asking questions often and early to help yourself get set up. Because what I have found, and I noticed this across a lot of other kind of mid career clinicians, is that we are now figuring out a lot of steps because now there's all these different resources, particularly with social media, and I has all these different resources to help you go into private practice. There's more coaches, there's allline stuff, there's tax stuff for therapists. There's all this stuff that wasn't there and when I was coming into the field, that now helps you figure those things out. But I think a lot of us in mid career are now getting those things together in this way in terms of structure, in terms of habits, in terms of patterns, in terms of paperwork, all this kind of stuff. So the earlier you can do those things and really focus on those kind of foundational aspects of your business, you get to kind of build and grow in a different way with a different kind of foundation that I just wished was there. But I also wish that I took advantage of. I wasn't offering myself the vulnerability to ask more questions of colleagues who are already in the field more. I think I was just reacting to a lot of stuff. I just got to figure out how to get clients, and figure out how to keep getting clients and figure out how to do this. I got to learn how to accept money, like doing all these things and wasn't really focused on the outside of the business. I was so much in it. So I think utilizing those resources as much as you can. So these Facebook groups, these consultation, all those kinds of things that are available, use those as early as you can, because they're really going to help you solidify stuff so that you can actually tap into creativity and like either other parts of your business, but just the other parts of your life because these things are taken care of. I love that.
So I think definitely using your resources, being able to ask for help. And I think I'd add two more to that. I think not being afraid to pause and pivot because I think when we're going and we're doing, we're just going and we're doing, and it's just like, okay, we're trying often to not let the bottom fall out or what's the next thing that's on the to do list. It's knowing that there's enough, we have enough, we have enough time, there's enough support, there are enough client there is enough to pause for just a second and to see if what I'm doing does it serve me, does it feel good? Am I enjoying the work that I'm doing, or is there a better way for me? To do it, or you know, I'm doing these three things, but these two really feed my soul. So if I pause for a second to self evaluate and be able to evaluate, and then if I need to pivot, then I can pivot. I think so not only like asking for help, asking for support, pausing and pivoting, but I also think continuously learning, just reminding myself I don't know all the things. I don't have all the answers. Like you were saying, doctor A, there's so many resources that are out there.
It's like if you.
Don't know how to do that, then sometimes it comes up in our console groups like oh, this is a new platform people are using and being okay with Oh I don't know that, or how are people doing that, what's a new technique for doing that? Or how are you doing onboarding or you know, new patients. So being not afraid to just continuously learn you don't have the answers. I'm always learning something new, and I'm not afraid to pause and pivot and going back to doctor A like ask for help. I think it helps us to not be able to bring out I would.
Also add something that I'm seeing more in emerging therapists, I think because of social media of all these different groups, that there is this assumption and or pressure to have this like six figure practice really really soon out of school, and not saying it's it possible, y'all, don't come for me, not saying it's not possible, and not saying don't be motivated towards it. But I'm seeing a lot more therapists, really really early therapist having a lot of pressure to fill a practice immediately, to fill a practice, to have perfectly niched down, to have two populations that they're really really seeking to build their practice, and if it doesn't happen in the first like six months or a year, really being in a tail spin because they see all this stuff online about established practices. And it's so subjective, right that I have colleagues who have established practices that are seeing thirty five people a week, and I have colleagues whose full time is eleven people a week. There's so much, I guessay, kind of just subjectivity to that, but really being mindful of being able to nuance like motivation versus pressure, because there is this story or this sense that any of us with full practices did it very quickly, and that we're just always getting clients all the time, and that every screening converts to a client, and every client converts to a long term client and everything. Right, So I think there's some type of disservice that's happening right in terms of feeding this beast around productivity and growth and whatever six figures means to people now that that should happen in this unique space in the private practice space.
But that's why that self awareness stuff comes into It's like, do I really want to have thirty five people a week?
Right?
Is that what it's going to take for me to make the six figures? Like at what cost? Or do I do this and do this very well? And so I can still get to my six figures, but it may take me a little more time and I'm not burning out and I am watering this other part of me with my other friends and so yeah, it's not always doing, but taking some time to really be and that's to be self aware.
That such beautiful advice. Thank y'all so much for sharing that. I think that that would be really helpful to younger clinicians in the field. So I appreciate you sharing that. So remind us all where we can stay connected with you. What is your website? I know, doctor Joey, you talked about not really being on social media, so any social media handles you want to share are places where people can connect with you.
Yeah, I'm definitely on there. Listen, it's not popping every single day, but when it's.
On there, it's on there.
But I'm at ask doctor Joy that's a s K D R j O Y on all platforms online.
And what about you, doctor A.
So my practice can be found at www dot ascension behavioral health dot com. That's a s c N SiO N behavioral health dot com. And I can be found on Instagram at doctor Ayana A, which is doctor dr underscore A y A n N A underscore A perfect.
We will be sure to include that in the show notes so that people don't have to look too hard to find either of you. Well, thank y'all so much for joining me again. Always a pleasure, always, always a pleasure. I'm so glad doctor Ayana and doctor Joror were able to join me for this conversation. To learn more about them and their work, be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash session three sixty eight, and don't forget to text two of your girls right now and tell them to check out the episode. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into this topic or just be in community with other sisters, come on over and join us in the sister Circle. It's our cozy corn of the Internet, designed just for black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.
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