Session 357: Shedding the Shoulds

Published May 1, 2024, 7:00 AM

Take a second to think of all the things in your life you’ve been told you “should” do. I should eat more healthy. I should be a better mom. I should have a partner. Now, imagine how much freer you could be by transforming those shoulds into cans, allowing you the ability to pursue your desires without shame.

To talk with me today about why women should stop should-ing themselves is returning guest Dr. Melissa Robinson Brown. Dr. Mel is a licensed clinical psychologist, health & wellness enthusiast, and multi-passionate entrepreneur. During our conversation, we discussed how to notice when you’ve developed a pattern of should-ing on yourself or others, the importance of having a strong group of friends who can help you combat negative self-talk, and how parents can stop the cycle of “should-ing” by embracing grace and compassion.

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The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.

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Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session three fifty seven of Me for Black Girls podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after a word from our sponsors.

Hey there, I'm doctor mel and I'm on the Therapy for Black Girls podcasts. I'm in session today unpacking how to stop shooting on yourself.

Take a second to think of all the things in your life you've been told you should do. I should eat more healthy, I should be a better mom, I should have a partner. Now, imagine how much freer you could be by transforming those shoulds into cans, allowing you the ability to pursue your desires without shame. To talk with me today about why women should stop shooting themselves. Yes, you heard me right is returning guests doctor Melissa Robinson Brown. Doctor mel is a licensed clinical psychologist, health and wellness enthusiast, and tip passionate entrepreneur. In her private practice a renewed focused psychology services, she helps women who want to feel empowered while navigating difficult life situations and transitions. During our conversation, we discuss how to notice when you've developed a pattern of shooting on yourself or others, the importance of having a strong group of friends who can help you combat negative self talk, and how parents can stop the cycle of shooting by embracing grace and compassion. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media using the hashtag TVG in session or join us over in the sister circle To talk more about the episode, You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. Well, thank you so much for joining us again today, Doctor mill Thank.

You so much for having me. I'm so excited to be back on the podcast. It's been too.

Long, been way too long, and I know our listeners are ready for an update. So, as you mentioned, it's been a while since you've been with us since twenty twenty, people will recognize your voice, maybe from men, but let us know what you have been up to since you were talking with us about living single.

So I continue to have a private practice. I now have a group practice, so there are more clinicians available to see clients. I have the side Packed designation, which means I can see clients in over forty states and do telehealth and actually have openings right now, which is so rare. I have also moved a little bit into the coaching space, so I have a coaching program called Limitless and Fearless the Badass Transformation, where I help women start to step into more of their authenticity, become bolder in their requests and their asks, and set better boundaries so they can go to work and leave that toxic job that's been holding them back, or ask for that raise they've been deserving, have more space in their lives because now they are setting better boundaries with their family, with their kids, their partners, and they feel seen and they're developing really healthy relationships. So I'm really excited about that program. And I have a journal coming out this year called the Badass Transformation Journal. So we've been busy.

We've been busy over Yeah you have, Yes, you have. So doctor Mail, tell me a little bit about what made you start the coaching program and how it is different maybe from the work that you do in clinical practice.

Yeah, that's a great question. So clinical practice, I love it. I love what I do, but there are limitations in the sense that I get to see my clients one to one forty five minutes a week. And while I love that, I know that there is so much additional work to be done in between, right in between those sessions. And I also think there are such value to community. So my coaching program right now is a group coaching program. So the goal being, especially because I'm focusing on on building healthier relationships, I want women to be able to be in a space where they can start to build community and get feedback about their growth, to get affirmation, because so often they don't. Women don't get that right. And so I moved into this space because number one, I wanted to be able to reach and help more women. But I just love the idea of coaching and encouraging and promoting in a group space and being able to do that in between work, in between the sessions, so to speak.

I love that we love in vivo feedback. Right, There's nothing like being able to hear in real time like how you're coming across the people.

Yes, yes, absolutely, it's so powerful.

Yeah, agreed. So so much of your work, doctor Mail has really been about this kind of badass transformation in so much of your work. I'm wondering in your work with both your coaching clients and your therapy clients, if there are general themes that come up about things that get in the way of women and creating the lives that they say they want for themselves.

Yes. One of the things that I really have been focusing on I've always focused on, but I'm taking a different approach to it is there are so many rules and structures ways in which we are socialized to behave to show up right, the concept of professionalism and how we need to be in a space and be more professional. Right, So somebody may look at me right now with my purple hair, my big red earrings, these nails and be like, ugh, I don't know if that's professional, but that has nothing to do with what's coming out in my mouth, right, And so, really, so many of the things that get in the way of women getting closer to what they want is they're trying to follow the rules that were set and established hundreds of years ago, and they were relevant back then, but they're not relevant now, and the idea of changing them is scary. There's no new template to follow, there's no new pathway, and so we don't change them because that's all we know. But we can't get caught up in that old stuff because it's blocking our come up now.

Ooh, I love that, So talk to me more about what does it look like to start because I think for some people they don't even realize like they are following these rules that like society and our parents and other people have given us. So what does it look like to start the work of changing some of these rules, especially if you don't even know that you're operating by them.

Yeah, that's a great question. So I think it's first. I was talking to somebody recently and knowing when you're stuck, because usually when you feel like you're stuck, it's because there's a rule you're following that doesn't fit, or there's something about yourself that you're not accepting, and so once you can start to identify what that is, it's helpful. I'm a big journal start to get the things out of your head because we think this and then we get distracted by our kids and then oh this other revelation comes up, and oh yeah, I gotta return this work email. So all that good work that's happening in your head, it gets lost. So journaling is so important getting it out of your head and writing it down, or getting it out of your head and talking it out. Sometimes people are like, I don't want to write, or journals are scary because what if somebody finds it? So you do a voice memo, anything you can keep personal to yourself. But start there and think about what do you value the most in your life and what's driving that. Is there a particular value, Is there a particular belief that you're holding onto, and does that feel like it's in alignment with how you want to live your life, not how you should live your life, but how you want to live it. And that's just a great place to start to just start to jot those down.

So I wonder if you have a couple of journal prompts that you maybe share doctor mail that you can offer with our community that could be helpful for this process.

So I'm going to take it to like career, right, because I talk about this a lot, and I'll even do professionalism or what I wear to work. So you may be thinking about, Hey, I want to show up at work as my most authentic self. So the first prop would be what does that look like to me? Like if I had no restrictions in the world at work, if there wasn't a dress code, if there wasn't a boss telling me that I had to look or dress a certain way, what would I put on? How would I show up? What would it look like for me to use my voice in those situations? Starting to journal about if there were no restrictions, what would I do? And then once you've written that down to say, am I showing up this way now? Yes? Or no? And if I am, what about this environment allows me to do that? So thinking about Okay, yeah, I do think I can show up the way I want at work. I can wear color, I could change my hair, I can put in braids, I can wear my fro I can straighten it. What about that environment allows me to do that? And then if your answer is no, to am I showing up this way? What about this environment is stopping me? What are the rules? What are the thoughts? What's the culture here that's stopping me from showing up the way I want? And do I want to continue to stay here? Right? Is it worth it for me to sacrifice this thing that I'm feeling or this thing that I'm wanting to be in this work environment. I feel like I gave you like ten prompts, but.

I'm sure the community will love that. We love a good journal assignment, so I appreciate you sharing that. And something that you talked about that I think will be helpful for us to talk a little bit more about is not the things that you should do, but the things that you want to do. And I know so much of your work really focusing on stopping people from shooting all over themselves, So can you talk to us more about what does that mean? Like when you say, like, oh, you're shooting on yourself again, what are we saying?

I have a series on TikTok that I do shooting Tuesdays, and so many people will go what did you just say?

And I'm like, I remember learning about that in grad school and thinking I was so tickled if that was a word.

Oh but when you should on yourself, you literally put the shoulds on you and you are judging. So a should signals judgment the minute you use it in your vocabulary. I should mother this way. I should get married at twenty six because that's what women do. I should have a baby, I should pursue this career path because this is what I went to school for. And it doesn't matter if I really like art. I should be a lawyer because that's what I got my degree in. Right, So, the minute you start saying that, you're putting a judgment on yourself because if you don't do it, then it must be bad, right if you should and you're not. And when we're shoulding on ourselves, we're just judging ourselves all over the place. It's like judging up and down, back and forth every which way, and that is really challenging. We start to feel bad. Right, I should put my kids to bed at seven pm. So then when you put them to bed at eight pm, now you're feeling like a bad mom. Right, I don't know any should that then turns into a good thing. Even I should do more self care Okay, But then because you don't, you start to feel bad. Oh, I don't make enough time for myself. I'm just failing at life. So when you're shoulding on yourself, you're constantly judging and you're actually not helping yourself make progress in any way.

Okay, So I'm thinking, what then is the balance? Because some of those things that we're talking to ourselves about are important, right, Like it is important for us to make time for ourselves. It is good for kids to have some structure, bed time kind of thing. So what kind of language should we be using? Should what kind of language can we be using with ourselves to still do the things that may be helpful for us, but maybe not as judgment field.

So it's really about accepting yourself where you are and recognizing that you want to do something differently or do something better right. And also when you accept yourself where you are, understand and recognize if you want to do the thing you think you should be doing. Right. So I should be putting my kids to bed at seven pm, Okay, if that's something you truly believe because you've looked at the science and you believe when kids go to bed at seven pm they do better in the mornings, they sleep better. Right, So you're aiming for something. You say, I want to put my kids to bed at seven pm. Right now, what we can make it to is eight. But I know it's something I want to work on. So maybe next week what I'll do is I'll start storytime at six instead of at six point thirty. Let's see if that gives us a little bit more time. The difference is that you've given your self space to grow. You've accepted right now, the way the house is working, we can't get to bed till eight. But if it feels really important to me to get them to bed at seven, then I'm going to adjust and try something different to see if that works. It's movement. When we should we get stuck I should do this at seven. Oh, I'm a bad mother. I've done the worst things in the world. And then you're just stuck in this storm of like, eugh, iickness, right versus the I want to do this, and so because I want to do this, let me try. Right, I should be more professional at work? Now? Why because back in the sixteen hundreds when we came up with professionalism and it was for white men. This is where it started. We think we should show up this way. No, right, I want to show up as my best self at work? What does that look like for me? And then you figure out what that is and then again find the culture. So it really is about taking out that should and using more language that says I accept where I'm at now. Now what do I want to do with where I'm at? Now? Do I want to make change? Do I want to actually create my own rules here? Right? Maybe you don't care about getting your kids to bed at seven, Maybe eight nine o'clock works for you because your kids sleep well in the morning. I don't know, but yes, got it.

More from our conversation after the break, But first, a quick snippet of what's coming up next week on TVG.

Why would we not focus on neuth mental health because our young people, they don't get those issues addressed as young people, They're going to grow into adulthood carrying those issues which you know well and talk about all the time. So so much of our experience as adults is rooted in what were our experiences as children and So why wouldn't we start the conversation with our young people? Why would we not want to support young adults who graduated high school and maybe in the military, out working or starting families or in college. All of those young people have needs, and those are periods of heavy transition, like you're going from let makes you the middle middle to high hi to college or the work or the military, you're getting married, and so finding yourself and trying to figure all that stuff out and not having mental health support is too much.

So what kinds of things would be helpful for people to identify when they are shitting on themselves? What kinds of things should we be paying attention to?

Yeah, I always tell people to start with noticing. The minute I say to somebody, be careful when you use should, just like you did just a second ago. You're like, oh, I should can just notice first? How often do shoulds come up in your life? When I work with my clients and we start talking about this, they're like, oh, I got to change my language around us because they start to become more aware. Awareness is like such a big first step. So you want to become aware first, and then once you become aware again that journal. Why is that a should in your life? Gotta understand, right? Why am I holding onto this should? I should put my kids to bed at seven? I should only give my kids healthy foods. They should not have McDonald's. Right, Why are you holding onto that? Well? You know they say that kids shouldn't have any fast food, and like, feel like I'm really not giving them the best things. All right, look at all the things you're doing. Oh but during the week you give your kids broccoli and grilled chicken and sweet potatoes, and then on Fridays they ask for McDonald's. Balance. Balance works, right? So I think we start with awareness and then once we identify where we tend to say should, start writing. Why am I holding onto this belief? Is it because I truly believe this? Or is it because society told me this is how it should be? Oh, look I said it, or my mom told me these are the rules I'm supposed to follow, right, or my dad or my caregivers or whoever my friends. This is what all my friends are doing. I need to be doing it too. So just understanding the source.

I wonder, doctor Mail, if there are particular shoulds you have seen come up for black.

Women Mmmm, that's such a great question. There's definitely a should related to parenting our kids. Right. My kid should show up at school, hair done, clothes the best they ever have been because we feel like we need to represent in a particular way. I hear things around. I should be a strong black woman because my ancestors have done X, Y Z, because that's what's expected of me. I should be careful with how loud I am in a workplace because if I'm too loud, they're going to criticize me. They're going to not give me the job I want. We can do. Shouldn'ts too write. I shouldn't ask for a raise because it's not my turn yet, even though I've working really hard for a year, all of these accomplishments I've had in my job, and then it makes sense to ask for a raise. But people get stuck in this idea of especially Black women, get stuck in this idea of not asking for raisis. I hear it a lot in our jobs. I should do this particular job because I need to provide for my family. I shouldn't pursue my passion because I need to show up in a particular way so that I can be respected as a black woman, respected as a black professional, I should be partnered. So those are some of the ones I hear a lot.

Yeah, I'm not surprised by anything that you shared, and I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about I mean, because in fairness, some of that is what the world has told us, right, I mean, and we do know that there are expectations, and we know that racism and all the isms still exist. So how do you balance the reality of the world with the things that you would like to do that may be different from what the world real tills us. That is possible?

I think it's such a great question. The one that was just coming up for me again was this idea around hair. Right. We hear it so often. I should wear my hair straight when I go to work, especially if I'm in a corporate environment. I can't wear my natural curly hair. They're not going to respect me, so I should do this. So, first of all, when we start to break free of some of these requirements and rules and should there's risk taking involved, right, because we are taking a risk. If the rule is every black woman at work, she's got her hair straight, and if I show up in these braids. I don't know what's going to happen, Right, You're going to take a risk, and you want to take what I call healthy risks. Right, So, even if you're deciding to quit a job, even if you're deciding to wear your hair differently than you ever have, I say, take a healthy risk because I want you to think it through. Impulsivity doesn't ever work well. But I want you to think about both the advantages to you doing what you want to do and the disadvantages. I'm a firm believer in finding a culture that works for you instead of you always trying to fit yourself uncomfortably into a culture that just doesn't work. But even that is a risk. Right. So if you say, at my job, I tried to wear braids and everybody was touching my hair and my superiors were looking at me strange, and I just felt uncomfortable. So I went back to wearing my hair straight because I needed to have my job fair. I want you to keep your job, but please start planning your exit strategy, because that's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of how an environment is going to try to control you. Right. And so the world is telling us particular things, and there are definitely spaces whereas black women, we are not going to feel comfortable no matter what we do. We can shift, change, tweak all we want, and they're still not going to accept us. So it is a matter of taking a healthy risk. All right, I can't be in this environment anymore. I'm planning my exit strategy. So in a year, I'm out of here. So I'm going to take everything I need from this job. I'm going to start putting my resume out, start networking, start figuring out how do I get out of here right, And in a year, I'm also going to start saving because in a year, I gotta go because the impact on me is going to be too great. So yes, the real world is out there and it is telling us particular things, and we have to find our spaces, our work environment, the right friends, the right partners, the right networking situations. You have to find the spaces where authenticity is valued.

I really appreciate you bringing in the piece around risk taking because I think that's important, right, Like some of the things that you're suggesting and that we may desire is a risk. What would you say to someone or how might we be able to cope if we take a risk, right, So maybe we're a little risk averse. We take a risk because we wanted to do something different, and then we don't get the expected results right, Like it turns out it was a bad calculation or you know, people just didn't accept it. What do we say to ourselves to move past that?

So start with grace and compassion. It has to be first, because black women, Oh, we're the worst with our negative self talk. We go in, right, that was so dumb. You shouldn't have done that. There's a should, right, I can't believe it. Oh, I'm such an idiot for believing that. I knew this wasn't gonna work. See, this is what happens when you step outside the box. I'm not doing this anymore. But we have to have grace and self compassion. Speak kindly to ourselves first and foremost. Applaud yourself for taking a risk. It's not easy, right, it's scary af to take a risk sometimes, and so the fact that you had the courage to do it, applaud yourself for that, and have grace and compassion when it didn't work out, right. I think the second step there, though, is processing. We have to have a good squad, right, and I know you're so big on this, doctor Joy. Right, Having a good group, particularly of female friends, who hold you down, who cheer you on when things go well, who will be your support when things don't go so well. Those are the people you have to go to process. Don't keep this in right, go to them when the risk goes well too, But when the risk doesn't go well, use your people, right it. Tap in to your people, y'all. I need you. I need to talk through this because I tried something, it didn't go well. I'm feeling bad, but I need your help because those are the people who are going to be good reflections. They're gonna be good mirrors for you. They're gonna say, yeah, that was great. Sometimes things don't work out, or I see why you did that, and can I give you some feedback? Right, But we need those people in our lives, so grace and compassion first, watch that negative self talk, then tap into your squad.

I wonder if you could talk a little bit about why black women are so critical of ourselves. And I don't know if you know any numbers of research that suggests this. I would love to hear it. I don't know that we are more critical on ourselves than anybody else, but we definitely do have a lot of negative self talk and can be very critical of ourselves. That I think then in turn becomes us being very critical of other people. So can you talk a little bit about why you think black women are so critical in our self talk.

I wish I had specific stats. I don't. I can tell you anecdotally because my practice is probably about eighty percent women of color, and then I do have the other twenty percent that are white women. And I think it comes down to two things. I think one is sometimes the way we are parented, right, I hear a lot of women who have grown up with hypercritical parents. There wasn't a lot of room for mistakes, There wasn't a lot of room for risk taking, and in fact, there wasn't a lot of room for just problem solving and decision making. A lot of that was just done for us or put on us, or we're told what to do without being able to necessarily always use our own thoughts. And if something didn't go well, let's say a sea got brought home on the report card, or you got in trouble at school, or you were supposed to practice for an event and you didn't. The hell storm that comes down from parenting around a mistake or not doing something you were supposed to do. It's heavy and it's intense, and we learn from our parents in terms of how to react to a thing. So we get real critical because when we were young, those mistakes were huge, even though they really weren't supposed to make mistakes. As kids, we're supposed to mess up, right, But our parents are so quick to come for us that when we get older, that's what we know. Come for yourself when you've messed up. It's not really often taught grace and compassion, right. Can I share a small anecdote really quickly about this thinking. So I have three kids. I have a fourteen, eleven and a seven year old, and when my daughter was in seventh grade last year, she got caught cheating, and oh my goodness, I think this is the other piece of it. As black parents, we think I'm working so hard, I'm teaching you the right from the wrong. I'm busting my butt to make sure you get what you need, and then you do this it feels like a personal affront. So often right as parents, And I had to sit with myself for a second right and say it is not going to help me to go at this child and take everything that I'm feeling and put this on her. She already feels horrible. Charnie feels really bad because she knows how we are in our house, right, So for me to then go for her in that moment is only going to then make her more anxious and be more critical of herself as she gets older. So I know what it's like as a parent, especially as a black parent, because we're sitting here thinking our kids need to be representative of who we are, so we come down on them harder, right, And as black women, we grow up with that we've got to be the representation of black women. So if we mess up, the world is ending, and we've got to teach ourselves that the world is not ending. That everybody is a human and humans air, humans make mistakes. We've got to develop better self compassion.

I really appreciate you sharing that because I definitely was thinking, and I know you have three beautiful babies. I was gonna ask you, like, Okay, as a mom, what kinds of things can we be doing to not pass on some of that, right, because as I hear you talking, I know exactly what you're talking about, and I know exactly why many of our moms parented the way that they did and dads and caregivers, right, And I think we also need to look at how effective are those strategies and things anymore, And I think what you're arguing is that largely they are not, especially in terms of our long term mental health. So when I hear you say, Okay, she gets caught cheating, I'm thinking all of these things and now I have to figure out how to respond to her. What I hear you talking about is having to do a lot of regulation of yourself so that you can respond to her in a way that she does not internalize all this bad stuff about her. Can you talk a little bit about what we need to be doing in those moments and what kind of work it takes to get to the place where you can, you know, regulate and parent in that way. I'm asking for myself.

I hear it's hard. I'm just gonna say like, it's hard, full transparency. It was nice because I heard about this when she was not home, and then I had like two hours before she got home to like process with my husband, with my other mom friends who were all like, I know you're mad and right, so yes, there is some self work that has to happen. I think we need to be really clear about what kind of parents we want to be. Take a look at how you were parented by grandma, by mom, by dad, right by whoever was your caregiver, it was your aunt, whoever it was, And take a look and say to yourself what did I love about their parenting and what was really not great? What made me feel bad as a kid. Right, there's historical work we have to do because there's always connections, and then you have to I'm going to go back to it, have a really good squad, Right, Have people in your life that are trying to raise their kids similarly to how you're trying to raise them, who have similar values. This may be a different group of girlfriends than your girlfriends that you go to talk work related things, right, because your work related things. Those girlfriends may not have kids or maybe their great aunts and uncles, and they could still be helpful. But my point is have a good squad, because that's what helped me as soon as it happened. I picked up my phone and I'm like, you will not believe. And my husband is definitely a really good yin and yang to me, so he does not pop off as easily as I do. So he brought me down. But my girlfriends were great. They were like, everything you want to say to her, say it to us, which was such a good pointer. They're like, every single thing you want to be able to say to this child, say it to us, so you can just get it out. The emotion needs to go somewhere. I'm not telling you not to feel angry, because it makes sense to feel angry. I'm not telling you not to feel disappointed. That also makes sense, but find a different place to put it than on your child.

I love that. Thank you for that, Doctor mill. More from our conversation after the break. So you've mentioned the importance of our squads at least twice now in our conversation, and again you know I am a big fan of that. But I also wonder, and you've already referenced this, that sometimes the shoulds that we get will sometimes come from the people in our lives, maybe including our squads. So how can we assess for ourselves if we may be unintentionally shoulting on other people.

Yeah, that's such a great point. So a couple of things, and I think you know this and have said this too. First of all, don't be afraid to reconfigure the squad. Right. As we change and we shift, sometimes our friendships don't grow with us. And that's okay, season reason, lifetime. Right, Sometimes there were friendships that made sense when you are at a certain phase in your life, and as you move on to the next phase, they're not growing with you. They're not shifting with you, so it doesn't make sense. So I do think that that's part of it, right, making sure your squad makes sense at the phase that you are in your life. But when we are to know if we're intentionally shoulting on other people, should there judgment? Right, So you're not only just assessing if you're shoulding, assess that you're judging? Right? Am I judging my friend? When my friend comes to me and says, I'll take a sensitive topic that has happened, right, I think that my child is trans and so I'm allowing them to transition. And then you get questions like are you sure that's something you want to do? I mean, isn't such and such a little young for that? All of that is disguised judgment, disguised because they're not saying that's a bad thing, don't do it, but that are you sure, don't you think? Blah blah blah? Right, that's disguised judgment. And if you find yourself doing the same thing, going to that friend who's about to quit their job, and you're like, are you sure you want to quit that job? I mean, don't they pay you one hundred thousand dollars a year? Can you make up that money somewhere else? That's judgment. That's your own sense of judging their decision that you're now putting on another person that does not feel good when you're trying to make a life transition or a pivot. So I think it's just listening to when you yourself have judgments or biases or fears. Right, when we see our friend getting ready to quit their job and you're like, I want to do that, but I could never Are you sure you want to do that? That's how it's going to come out.

I appreciate you pointing that out right, because a lot of times our judgment is really based in our own fear or our own wish that we could do something differently, and now somebody else is doing it and it makes us feel bad, I think about ourselves. So in the example you gave, right, let's say somebody in your squad, I'm seeing you in there, Like, I want to leave this good government job, as people say, but I want to do something else. I want to travel abroad for a year. I want to do something completely different. What kinds of things might we say or respond that are not shitting on them?

The first one is I love that I am big of this. I love that for you? That sounds so exciting. How'd you get here? Like? Why did you decide to do that? Well, the job has been really rough. I've been talking to you like I've just been feeling so unseen and my boss is racist. Wow, that's awesome. Like, I love that you have gotten to this place where you feel like you're ready to make this next step. How can I support you? End of story? Right, there's no well, how are you going to do that? And like a whole year of traveling abroad? Is that okay? Right? Have you talked to your husband? I mean, have you talked to your husband? Or your partner about that. That's not a judgmental question, right, that's just kind of a like, hey, have you like discussed this with the people in your life? What are they saying about it? Are you feeling supported? But the how can I support you? Is a really great non judgmental way to be there for your friends the excitement about what they've chosen, and y'all, tone matters. So if somebody comes to you and share something they're excited about and you're like, oh, that's cool, so let me talk to you about X, Y Z and YLB and if that is so clear that you actually do not care or share in their excitement about the thing, right, so like, let's actually feel enthusiastic about it. And if you're not feeling enthusiastic about it, sit back for a second and ask yourself, why am I not excited for my friend? Why am I not excited for my bestie? Right? She just came and shared amazing news with me. Why am I feeling like, oh, that's fine and moving on? Because there's something going on with you.

So, doctor Mail, we have a shared love of pop culture and all things film, movie, podcast, all the things I'm wondering if you can identify some of your favorite examples of women characters across tea, the books, and film who you've seen stop shooting on themselves and how it unlocks something for them.

Okay, I don't know why being Mary Jane is coming to mind, even though that.

Was what I was thinking. She was the first one that fassed into mind, like she's coming.

To mind, even though that's been off for a little while. But I think Mary Jane had a lot of shoulds about who she should be professionally, who she should be dating, right, that is a big one, like I should be dating this really fancy, corporate whatever person, and I actually I am really feeling like I love the art teacher at the high school. Right. That wasn't who she loved, But there was just so much distinction between those two, and people have status wise or who I am I should be dating a certain person. But I felt like with Mary Jane, over time she let go of those shoulds and started just leaning into what made her happy, right in terms of her relationships, in terms of her work. Right, there was a passion she had for what she was doing, and like what it looked like to actually pursue that regardless of the judgment around her, Right, it just allowed her to feel better. I think at the end, right in that last sort of long episode they had or our movie, whatever they did, at the end, I think what I recognize is that she just started feeling better about her, Like there's joy when you let go of shoulds and lean into what actually works for you. I'm trying to think if there's another character that comes to mind.

Have you watched the Belle Air reboot?

I have?

Ooh, okay, so I feel like all of the women characters there, like the Mom, Hillary an Ashley. Yes, I feel like all of them. Through the series, we've seen them let go of some of the shoulds about who they should be and do something very different.

Yes, yes, yes, specifically I'm thinking about Hillary right, if you think about it too, Even again our long this dating piece, I think for a while she was hiding her relationship with Jazz because she thinks she should have been dating I mean, and she didn't start dating the football player, but like she should have been dating somebody else, Right, Jazz wasn't the person people would expect her to be with, and she experienced dissonance around that because that's who she liked. I actually liked how they changed it and made them a couple because there was always this fight against it in the original. But that was a big part. Even though we're talking about women. I saw it a lot with Vivian. But like Carlton, right, who Carlton was trying to be in that show was messing him up, right. It caused him to take drugs. It caused him to have so much jealousy and envy because he thought he should be a certain way and the people around him should show up a certain way. And it was so challenging. Right. I think Ashley with her sexuality for a while, she was sort of hiding that and should be straight. But I think once she came into a place where it was like, It's okay for me to like girls, and I'm going to tell people that she was able to have relationships, right, she likes somebody, She felt freer with her family, she could talk about it more freely. It was so empowering.

Agreed, Agreed. I'm ready for the next season. I hope we get it very soon.

I really like it too. I like them. It's a good show.

So you've shared so much with us today, Doctor Miil. I wonder if you could summarize or give us three takeaways that you would like the community to have after checking out your conversation here.

Yeah, so definitely to stop shooting on yourself, right, And in order to do that, we have to develop an awareness around our shoulds and then work towards why we hold them and then what it looks like to let it go. That's a really long one. I think the second takeaway is taking some time to tap in and understand what brings you joy, what makes you tick. Right, so many of us deny and don't pay attention to what makes us tick. We're so busy following rules that are archaic and at a date and don't even make sense anymore, but we're still following them, right. So really, just taking time to tap in with yourself and really get to know yourself. And you can do that in so many different ways, but journaling is such a really great place to start. And I think the third one. I really enjoyed our conversation on parenting, and so I think making sure that number one, you have a great squad for feedback, and you have a great squad who you can go and you can give them all the stuff you would want to give to your kids in the heat of the moment, but also as a parent, like instead of getting caught up and how we should parent because our moms told us how to, because society tells us how to, really think about, how did I want to be parented? What kind of kids do I want to raise right? And how do I get closer to that based on the values the shoulds I let go of, letting go of some of these rules, like really again taking time to like understand if the shoulds are impacting your parenting and if they are, how do you let them go?

Thank you for those So, where do we stay connected with you? Doctor Meiel? What is your website as well as any social media challenge you want to share?

Absolutely, so it's really easy to remember. On all socials, I am doctor mel So It's literally i am d R M E L on all socials, I'm the most on Instagram and TikTok. And then my website is I amdoctormeil dot com.

And can we find information about your coaching there?

My website is currently being redesigned and launched in April, and that is when my coaching program will open. Up again right now. I'm not taking new members, but you go to my Instagram and click on my link tree. There is a waitlist sign up there for Limitless and Fearless. So if you are interested and once it launches again in April and you want to know more and find out, I'll also be doing some free webinars leading up to it, then just hop on my Instagram. My link tree is linked on TikTok too, and there's a waitlist. Join that waitlist and you will not miss a beat.

Perfect. We'll be sure to include all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much for spending some time with us again, Doctor Mail, and I really appreciate it.

Thank you so much for having me, Doctor Joy. As always, it is so easy to have conversation with you. I can't even believe the time has passed.

Already, right right, Thank you, thank you so much. I'm so glad Doctor Mail was able to join us today to share her expertise. To learn more about her and her work, visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session three point fifty seven, and don't forget to chext this episode two of your Girls right now. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into this topic or just be in community with other sisters, come on over and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.

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