Playing with markers, clay, and stencils is something we may recall fondly from our youth, but today dismiss as childish. Art Therapy, however, is a very legitimate and relaxing form of therapy for all ages that challenges us to think through our emotions by putting pen to paper. To tell us more, today we're joined by Chicago based artist and registered art therapist, Pierra D. Brown. Since graduating with her Master’s from the School of the Art Institute, she’s worked both in communities, schools, and hospitals to provide clinical services to people of all ages.
During our conversation, Pierra and I discuss the training needed to become an art therapist, how art therapy can be used as an alternative or in supplement with traditional talk therapy, and what art therapy can teach us about shedding our perfectionist habits.
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The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session three fifty three of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after word from our sponsors.
Hi. I'm Pierre D. Brown and I'm on the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. I'm in session today unpacking my work as an art therapist.
Playing with markers, clay, and stencils is something we may recall fondly from our youth, but today dismiss as childish. Art therapy, however, is a very legitimate and relaxing form of therapy for all ages that challenges us to think through our emotions by putting pen to paper to tell us more. Today, I'm joined by Chicago based artist and registered art therapists Pierra D. Brown. Since graduating with her Masters from the School of the Art Institute, she's worked both in communities, schools, and hospitals to provide clinical services to people of all ages. In recent years, Pierra started utilizing her social media to raise awareness on what art therapy is and the benefits it has on mental health and wellness. During our conversation, Piera and I discussed the training needed to become an art therapist, how art therapy can be used as an alternative or in supplement with traditional talk therapy, and what art therapy can teach us about shedding our perfectionist habits. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media using the hashtag TVG in session or join us over in the sister circle to talk more about the episode. You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Pierra, Thank.
You for having me. I'm so excited and nervous all at the same time.
Oh, it will be painless. I promise, I promise. So tell me a little bit about how you got started with art. What is your earliest memory of being an art lover.
I've always loved art. I'm very like tactiles, always building stuff. I was into like science kits, little crochet making bees, through and through ninety childs. So I was like, I want every craft I've seen. So I was making bracelets, the little looms, all the things. So I've always been into art doing art. I never had the thought that I wanted to be like an artist or anything. I was just like, I like doing it.
I got it. You know. As I'm thinking, it does feel like we had a very different relationship to like arts and crafts as children than I think like my own children have now, like they do some kind of like friendship bracelet knitting stuff. But I definitely feel like we have more crafty kinds of things as children.
No, we absolutely did. And I love bringing it back to some of my younger patients or some of my adults to be like, oh my god, I remember doing this with it. I was like, yes, bring all the nineties stuff back.
I love it. I love it. So tell me about how that journey, like your initial interests in are then transitioned to you becoming an art therapist. So what inspired you to actually look into this as a career, Plath, It was actually.
A complete accident. I originally was going to get my bachelors in psychology. I was going to double major education psychology, but the education programs will to intend, so I like psychology more and we're required to take like additional electives. I took a ceramics course, so I was like, oh, I did in high school, I'll do it again. And it just so happened that my professor was like, you're really good at this. What are you in school for? And I was like, oh, psychology. So he was like, have you heard of art therapy? I feel like he slicked with try to get me into the art program, but he needed, like to diversify it a little bit. But it all worked out because I had never heard of art therapy prior to I want to say it was like the first semester of my junior year of undergrad got it.
Yeah. I do feel like art therapy is one of those specialties that people kind of find accidentally. Now hopefully that changes after your interview, right, then people can be more intentional about teaking it out as a path. But I think most people often have a story like this right, like that they find out a about it through Happens Stands. So tell me, if somebody is looking for an art therapist, what kinds of things should they be looking for? Like, are there certain credentials that we should be aware of?
There is So when you were going through the art therapy program, you have to get a master's So starting off, if you're working with someone, they have to have the MA behind their name that they finish their master's program. And following that you have the ability. Depending on the state that you're in, you can either get certified. Illinois does not have a certification. I'm actually just a registered art therapist, but they prepare you through the program that I went through to either go get your LCPC. You can go that route and so you can have those credentials. I skipped that route. I wanted to jump just straight towards my registration. So you have ATR registered art therapists and then you have ATRBC or certified in the future. That is my goal. I just don't like taking tests. It requires taking tests and I'm not a test girl, but those are the credentials when you're looking for an art therapist, like an official registered art therapist and not just someone who, oh I like to do art and I want to incorporate it with mental health. Those are the credentials that you will look for.
Got it? So walk us through what an actual art therapy session looks like, like how is art therapy actually different from traditional talk therapy?
So I work in two spaces, clinical and a non clinical. So I'll walk you through my clinical how working and behavioral health hospital. And so when doing my art therapy, I work with groups up to twenty patients and my general groups, I will have like an identified art activity that I'm going to do with the patients that kind of touch on different goals that are amongst the general treatment plan. And so I will start off with an introduction about who I am, what I'm there for, what we're going to be doing, and then I will present them with the art materials and then they will go through get their art materials, start the activity, and as they're working, I will interact with the patients. It's a lot of patients, so it's never just like a sit down thing, but I will start them with the art activities. Sometimes the art activity is very open. It's more for a self care relaxation, being able to sit and calm and quiet, and sometimes it has like a specific direction, and as they're going through that, I will check in with them how are they're feeling. I will ask them questions. And in that space it's only forty five minutes, so it's really really quick, and so I'm just trying to get them to make the art as much as possible. But as they're making art, I will ask the questions about how they're feeling emotionally, things that are coming up for them. In that space. As far as my non clinical setting, there's a lot more time. I always tell people whenever they want to work with me, I'm like, it's an hour thirty minutes to two hours, so that way they can make the art and then we can have conversation in the middle of it, and then like the last fifteen to twenty minutes, then we can engage in a conversation about emotions that came up for them while making the art, how it relates back to their life or their past, whatever it is. In that setting, there's more time allotted to the processing part of the art making, and in comparison to a traditional therapist, I'm just using the art materials, the art directives as a tool to initiate some one of those thoughts, to spark those like, oh, I haven't thought about it this way, and it makes a little bit easier to process.
Got it. So it's interesting that you described the longer process, like the hour and thirty minutes two hour session as non clinical, because that sounds more clinical.
To me in some ways.
Are you talking about it just in terms of like the settings the hospital versus not in the hospital?
Is that what? Yes? No, it is so clinical me working behavior health, I'm following and going by specific treatment plans. I do documentation. Then my non clinical I'm working within the community. There is no treatment plan. I'm not doing documentation at the end. But it has the same premise. It's just it's it's very like it's a little like baselines, little self care for the non clinical stuff. Some things can come up, they might be like triggering or some experiences that they have, but in the non clinical setting, we can briefly touch on that and then I can refer them to someone else versus like it coming back to me that kind of like.
Help that is helpful. So I'm curious how are you choosing, like what kinds of art activities your clients and your patients are doing, and what is the purpose? So like why might you choose one art activity versus another, and like why are you even using art?
Okay, I will break it down because I work with like adults, pediatric and adolescents. So for my adults, I'm really big in exposure exposing my patients to art materials because a lot of the patients I work with are brown and black and under service areas, so a lot of the time they have artists taken out of schools and sometimes they don't get that ability to explore art because a lot of the adults in their mindset arts for kids. So it's more like an exposed your things. So I will bring them like a range of art materials. And within the hospital setting, we are limited to what we can use. So in my little like little create that I have to carry, my main things that I like to bring are markers, oil, pastels, crayons. I have some stensiles I bring like a folder of like puzzles, whereas arch just amazes, things that I'm able to like see visually, like I'm missing some or I can count I have, like watercolor paints, things that I know, I can count, I can keep track of because in that space, some of the patients they're there for specific needs and they can't be around or they can't have certain materials. But for the adults, it's just more exposure. I want to expose them to different art materials, let them explore, let them just be able to like, I really like this. I wouldn't have thought to like use oil pastels. I like how it feels. I like the messiness, or I used to pay when I was younger. I want to get back into it. So for my adults, it's just more bringing them to what they most likely aren't going to be in contact with in their day to day. From my adolescents, it ranges so if I'm talking with my nursing stuff and they say, hey, miss p they've been struggling with let's say, oh, relationships, and I'm like, okay, you know, we might have a conversation about relationships and dating, and I might create an art activity around relationships, identifying family relationships, romantic friendships, and we'll go from there. And for my peds, it's always about working as a group, having to share, transitioning, so going from one spot to another spot, a little bit of like everything because they're younger and I want to make sure I like touch on a lot of things. But when I'm creating the art activity, I just kind of go day to day, like I relate today. Can they handle this? Have they been very aggressive? Can I bring the paints? No, they're a little too opposed to if I won't bring the paints. And then as far as my non clinical community stuff, I usually talk with the organizations and they let me know what topics that they have to address, and I'm like, all right, cool, and then from there I'll create a topic, find art active, and direct it back to the topic that they want.
Got it. So I had a chance to take an art therapy elective in grad school, and I'm remembering two distinct experiences in that class. So one the assignment was something like to visualize a rose bush and like then draw it. And I remember really struggling with that because I had never seen a rose bush like I had seen like roses at Kroger or you know, like but I don't think I had ever seen a rose bush, and so it really was difficult for me to complete this exercise. And I would imagine like thinking through like the cultural competence of assigning certain kinds of assignments. Can you talk about like how you think through like what's appropriate and you already talked about wanting to expose them to as many like materials as possible. Can you talk through like the cultural pieces of why you're choosing certain assignments for your clients.
Of course, so speaking of like the rose bush activity, I do have an activity whereas like imagine yourself as a tree, and we all have a very generic view of a tree. So I will come prepared with examples of trees and allow them to explore the variety because I know they, Like I said, I worked with brown and black individuals and underserved spaces, and especially in Chicago, a lot of our patients they don't leave their communities. Cargo's very segregated, so they don't leave their communities. So I'm always aware, Okay, will they have some sort of awareness of what different trees look like? No, I'm going to provide them with this sort of aid. Sometimes as far as art materials. I know a lot of the time no one has ever used oil pastels, but I will take the time and if they're interested and they're like, you know, miss P, what is this, I'm like, Oh, they're oil pastels. Let me show you how you can use them. I always am prepared to like show them how to use cerve materials because I know they don't have that experience, especially my adolescents and my peeds. They're taking art out of schools, so sometimes they're like, I want to use those you know, WATERCOLORSK cool? Miss P. Can you show me how? Yes, I can or my little kids to work on their fine motor skills working with stencils. Miss P, I can't do this. I'm going to show you how. I'm going to walk you through it. It's taking things that they should traditionally be learning in school, but bringing it into a space where they're able to have that opportunity to learn those skills.
Got it? And can you talk about you know, so you said they do the assignment and then like you're asking them questions, So what kinds of questions might you be asking based on whatever the art project was?
You know what? Honestly, it depends on what I'm observing. So if I'm observing someone who's having a hard time, like let's say the road situation, I'm like break down and be like, hey, I noticed you're struggling. What's going on with you? I've never seen a rose bush before? And I'm like, really, okay, we'll think of a basic bush and you know, we'll break it down that way, and it's just kind of like, why you know, why haven't you seen like a rose bush? Oh, I live in apartments, we don't see that, Or how's that experience for you? And it starts from there and it just goes into like a guided conversation led by the patients, but it's all of what I'm observing. If I notice something in their artwork, I will address what's in their artwork, and I'll have them try their best to explain like what they drew or how they came up with this idea. Today I had like one little kid. He was like drawing a picture and I'm like, oh, who is that. That's our little sister. Oh how old your little sister? She's twelve. I'm like, wait a minute, you sure she's little? And she's like, wait, you do it's like big sister, I'm like, okay, you know, are you guys close? Yeah, this is the end. It just goes from there. And so I'm like observing what they're working on and then going off of what they're giving me, and then it can go further and sometimes they'll ask me questions, They'll come up with questions, and then we'll engage in conversations about that. Hmm.
Yeah, I mean, and it really does speak to the idea that like, it isn't so much about whatever the art project is you've assigned, right, It's really about the deeper meaning and what is the motivation. And I think the other thing with like art therapy and like other kinds of non traditional kind of talk therapy, is that you may be able to to get to a concern or something that it would have taken you much longer to get to in talk therapy, like art therapy, it feels like dismantles a little bit. Can you talk a little bit about how you've seen our therapy be used and how it may be useful and kind of disarming in some ways and kind of giving you more space to have maybe more difficult conversations.
Oh. Absolutely, it definitely breaks that area. So when I work with adults, sometimes they can come in my group super super like upset and mad. They've had a hard day, they haven't talked to their therapists or their doctor, and they're just like, I just want to sit here. And I'm like, you could sit there and I'll pull out some orgony and I'll start making orgon me and they sit and there like huh and they start to like relax and chill out a little bit. I'm like, oh, you want to learn, and they're like no, no, no, no no, I just want to watch. And I'm like okay, and then then they'll start looking to peak and I'm like, let me make you something and they're like yeah, yeah, you can make me something though, like and it's it's such a great way to like, even if they're not engaging in the art activity, it definitely can and like, just Okay, it's not so bad. This is nice to watch someone being creative. It's nice to be in a space that's very calming and relaxing with some of my adolescents. Some of them, like I said, maybe having a tough day. They don't know who I am, and when I come into the spaces. I'm very strict, not like super super strict, but like, this is what we're doing, this is how we're doing it because I want the space to be chill. We only have forty five minutes. So some of them like, oh, who are you? And I'm just like, listen, I didn't give you no attitude, don't give me attitude. And then from there they be like okay. And then we do on art together and they see something cool and they'd be like, oh, Okay. Miss PA's not so bad because I like how she's talking to everyone else in the space, and so I can also talk to her as well. I've built many a relationships that started off super rocky that turned to just missp Oh my gosh, I love you, and it's just like I love your groups. It's so calm. I needed this, And so in the hospital setting, it definitely is really helpful to break that just I'm scared to be here, I'm angry to be here, or I'm very nervous. I don't know what I'm getting into.
Got it more from our conversation after the break. So you said you've worked with a variety of different clients. So Pedes adolescents and adults. Can you give us a breakdown of, like how often you're working with each of those kind of demographics?
Monday through Friday, every day.
With all all those groups. So you see adults and I.
Do three to four groups today, yes, and so one group I be peds, one group might be adolescents. So yes, Monday through Friday. I see those groups. They get to know me very very well.
Got it. And that's why you're saying, like, oh, I don't want to be here, because of course, as a part of them being in the hospital, sometimes these groups are mandated, right, a part of the treatment. Got it? Got it? Okay? Okay, So how long are you typically working with them? Like is the group kind of time? And in like okay, this is the twelve week group or can you give us a breakdown of how that works.
So we have a set schedule in my expressive therapy department and we see them, like I said, Monday through Friday. It's all dependent on when the individual discharges, but the groups run regularly unless there's some sort of change. And like I have mentioned previously, the groups are only forty five minutes, and so it's just when they are discharging, that's when they'll be done seeing us. But they will either see myself or another expressive therapists or like another art therapist or another WREC therapist from my department, and just each day we stay on the schedule.
Got it, got it? And of course you work in it sounds like hospital settings where we know our therapists work maybe in private practice or in other places. For somebody who may be enjoying the conversation, how might they decide whether our therapy is going to be maybe a good fit for them or their child.
I always say if your child has an interest in art, it's a good route to go if they already have an interest in art, because for some people, if they're not really interested in are they're a little hesitant. Also, if they've tried traditional therapy and there is no growth, I would recommend you know, like, hey, try art therapy, try music therapy, especially for children, that those kind of avenues help the process of therapy be a little smoother. And it's like it doesn't feel like therapy feels like something fun or interesting that they're going to be exploring. Until it doesn't become fun and interesting. It's like, oh, we're talking about this today. Oh man, But it is a good avenue if traditional therapy isn't working for them. And I know some individuals who do traditional therapy and an expressive therapy in tandem because you get a little bit of something from both the spaces.
Got it. So what if I'm considering art therapy but I don't really feel like I'm a good drawer, like I'm not super artsy, or maybe my kid is not what I also benefit from art therapy if I'm not like a good artist.
Oh, listen, I always tell them, I'm I'm an art teacher. I'm an art therapist. You're not getting a grade. You are Listen. You come and you create at whatever level you're trying to create at all my patients are like I don't know how to do or I was like, I'm not giving you a grade. Just come at whatever creative level you're at, and it is appreciated. On my end, I love effort. I love that you tried. I appreciate that you tried, and if you like it, I love it.
Yeah. I would imagine this is also a great space to kind of talk through like perfectionistic kinds of tendencies, right that need to think that there's like only one way to do an art kind of thing. Can you say a little bit about how therapy can help with some of.
That who when you're working with artists, like full fledged artists, that perfectionism really is the thing that they struggle with the most. And so I always encourage them. When I'm working with artists who are perfectionists, I come to them from an artist level and say, Okay, you're not here to be an artist, You're here for therapy. You just have an additional gift that helps with that. And I always kind of like encourage them to use it as like a way to improve their artistic ability. Put it in that realm. If I'm working with someone who is an artist, and I always say, try a different material that you haven't tried before. This is your opportunity to practice with it. And when you practice with it, you will get better. And then they'd be like, I didn't think about that, because I always want to stay with where they're comfortable, like, oh, I love painting them drying. Try something different that puts you out there, and then if you don't like it, then go back to what you're safe. Is. If they are not experiencing or I say, have you done this before? Well, no, I said, then why would you expect to be good at it the first time. It's going to take practice the same way that we were learning how to walk when we were younger. We weren't perfect. We was wild and looking like a little loose creatures out in the world. And so that's what I try to instill in them. And I always say, don't beat yourself up about it, and then if they want to redo it, they can redo it.
So what actually happens to the art projects are the assignments that happen as a part of art therapy session, like do you keep them? Does the client keep them? What happens with them?
Oh, they keep them unless they want to gifted to me, my little kids, little like I've made this for you. I'm like, thank you so much, and listen, I have a lot of art that's in my little cubicle and some of them may be going into trash. I'm not gonna lie about it. And I'm like, yeah, it's still in my office. But generally I say, it's your art. I don't you know, unless you want to gifted to me, it's your art. You do what you want to do. So I've seen patients like, oh, okay, I'm done and they throw it away. It's not hurting my feeling because it's not, like I said, I'm not a teacher and I don't have an attachment to it. And if you did, and you just want to do it in the moment, you want to throw it away, that's what you want to do with your artists and your possession.
Is there ever a time I can imagine this has happened, or maybe they are trying to express something that's a little bit more difficult. How are you having conversations with them to then maybe talk with parents or other people in their lives maybe about the art project. Is that a part of the work.
Too, Because they are inpatient, I don't get that processing outside of the space. But if there is something that has reference to like self harm, I will have a conversation with them and I will like ask them like independently, like, hey, I noticed we have a lot of this happening in your artwork. What kind of thoughts are we going through? Are we feeling safe? And then they'll say yes, they'll say no, and then I'll say, okay, do you want me to notify the nursing staff and then they'll be like yeah, and then we'll go from there. And so it would be the nursing staff and the other staff on the units that depending on like how aggressive or shocking it is, or like some of the conversations they're having about their artwork that I will direct to them.
Got it. Let's say somebody's enjoying our conversation and they're thinking like, oh, I might want to try this out. So maybe resources are limited or there is not an art therapist in their area to work with. What kinds of strategies or exercises made you suggest for somebody who maybe wants to dabble in this a little bit, but not necessarily like sign up for our therapy at this point of course.
So there are actually quite a few. Social media is a really great place to look for art therapy because there's quite a few mutual art therapists that I do follow up on TikTok, on Instagram, on YouTube, but some really safe ones. My favorite one that I love to like introduce to people. It's so simple, you just kind of go, you trace your hand and then with this activity, I like to sometimes work on confidence in each of the fingers. You're going to identify five positive things about yourself and you get super creative designed like the inside of the hand on the outside of the hand. A lot of people are just like, oh, coloring books are a great start for you if you need something super super structured. It's the safe place that everyone goes. So if you want to start that route and gravitate from coloring books to just openly being creative, creating an art journal and just utilizing different materials and just creating based off your emotions, you can. So starting with coloring books if you are not privy to doing art, starting with their as you little safe structured space, and then navigating trying different materials and doing things from there. But YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, looking for different therapists who put our activities out there. It's a great way to go more.
From our conversation after the break. The other memory I have from that art therapy class was we were required to make I don't think it was paper mache, but some kind of like tacky clay something where we made a mask of our faces and then we had to decorate the mask. And so the conversation part of it was like, what was the experience like making the mask? And then also like what meaning is attached to the way that you decorated the mask, which I think could be a pretty powerful conversation and an exercise for black women, right because we talk all about the mask we wear, and so to have a physical representation of a mask, I think could be a really cool exercise as well. Have you done anything like that with clients?
I have. I do the inner and outer self, so that I do with my adolescence because a lot of them are perceived one way, and like I had mentioned, they are bron and black, and so for my black girls, how they're perceived on the outward does not reflect how they're viewed inner. So I love that activity because it breaks down what they have taken from what people have said that's stuck to their outer self and how they have internalized that. So I definitely have done that activity. We didn't physically make a mask. We do a pay per form just because like I said, certain materials are not allowed, but that processing and how they well, my mama said, I'm a hoe, so I guess it will be a hoe And it's just like what do you actually think you know you're that and they're like, no, I don't feel that way. It's just you know, people say it or I'm dumb, I'm stupid, and it's just like, are you just saying that because other people have said it? Well, yeah, well how do you really feel? I actually feel like I'm kind of smart. I love science, and they start this whole thing about how they actually feel. It's just how they're acting based off of that. So I've definitely done that activity and it is a very hard one. Certain activities that I don't like to put out there into the space because it does open up certain wounds that if you do not have a trained or license art therapists or therapist there to help you process it, it can re trigger some things internally. And so when people are like, I want to do an art therapy activity, I'm like, what's something that is safe that is not going to retraumatize you or make you have these specific thoughts that you can't close. And so when people say they want to do that, I'm just like, I'm hesitant because you have no one there to support you through this, because it's a journey when you do specific things like.
That, right, right, Yeah, And I think some of these conversations around like social media and even sharing activities like that, is that so much of our training is designed to like look out for those kinds of things, right, and so in a non trained person's eyes, it looks like, oh, just a cool, fun activity, let's just do this, as opposed to what kinds of things can this kind of activity open up? So I appreciate you sharing that if you can also talk about, like why you think our therapy might be particularly helpful for black women and girls as opposed to other.
Groups who because it allows them to be soft and vulnerable. When I always when working with black women organizations and I say, this is all about you. You're not worried about your partner, your kids, and you have the ability to make mistakes and you can be as creative, as sweet, as cute as you want to be, Versus that I got to worry about everybody else. I got to be on guard. I gotta do this, I gotta do that, And so our therapy is so good with that. And also it teaches people to relax because I hear it all the time. It's just like I never get an opportunity to relax. So even if the directive it might be a little difficult. The creating process allows them to just relax and just this is nice. I could just focus on me and my own thoughts and not everyone else. It just allows you to be really soft, because when I'm with my patients, I'd be like.
Oh nice man, nice nice. So you also you've mentioned like how you share some of this stuff on social media. Can you talk a little bit about how you balance, like what is the balance between you kind of working as an art therapist and also now a content creator sharing some of this who.
I've slow down a lot. So I was talking to my friend and he's like, when did you get started? And I was like, accidentally, and I had did like a video and it was like what is your name? Where you signed? What is your job? And then everyone's like, I got art therapy. And then it was during COVID, so everyone was like, oh, yeah, this is great. I was like I got time. Yeah. Then life happened and so I took about two months off and then I was like, okay, I just I want to go slow. So right now I'm getting back into Okay, I want to be creative. I want to put more out there. On social media. I want to navigate, so a lot of scheduling, a lot of planning, a lot of taking time to Okay, I know I have to make content, but I want to relax today, so giving myself that break when I need it. I recently transitioned to part time because I was getting a little burned out, so that has also helped me do the content creating portion of it. But a lot of planning, a lot of scheduling.
And with that, how are you also finding time to stay connected to like art pursuits, like those kinds of things.
Everyone to ask me this question, and I don't really make art like that. I think the art for me is the content creating part. I'm creative whenever it hits me. I have like friends who when I first moved to Chicago, I did pursue being a painter actively, and they're like, Okay, where are the shows? When are you doing it? And I'm just like, I'm not really feeling it right now. I've slowly like done a little bit here and there, But I just create when I want to create. It's not my go to as far as like my personal self care. Everyone assumes that's my for self care. Because I'm urt therapist. I'm like, no, I like to move. I'm a little adhd girly.
So got it? Got it? And who are some of your favorite artists or your favorite art pieces?
I enjoy boss Yacht. There's this German artist I can't think of his name, but he makes creepy, grotesque portraits of people. And that's where I navigated my art too, just more abstracted portraits. I don't mind portraits. I'm not gonna lie to you. I don't know names. I just know visuals.
So I'm curious. Pierre. Is art therapy something that's typically covered by insurance?
Yes, actually it is. I know through like the hospital setting. It is required for our patients to get expressive therapy, which includes our therapy. And because our therapy is in a lot of majority hospital spaces, yes, it is covered by insurance. So when anyone is asking me how do I locate an art therapist, I'm like, number one, if you have insurance, look through your insurance because we are through that.
Got it. That's good to know. So you've talked several times about like art being taken out of schools. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts or hopes for how art and art therapy can be reintegrated into schools.
So after I graduated in twenty sixteen with my master's, I actually did two years in an elementary school and art was led by a history teacher, and so she would come to me for ideas and I'll go like, oh, so I as the art therapist, would do art therapy with the kids they assigned me. But then I also worked with Columbia College and they're after school program providing an art therapy program. So I definitely can see that there are organizations that go into schools and that can provide art, and when you're working with art therapists, there's additional benefits to that. So when I had did it, you know, I was like, all right, I'm going to work with the little kids because I know they don't get art like that. We're going to do things for fine motors, tracing, cutting, all of those things. For my bigger kids, we're gonna work on sculptural things that induce frustration and managing that. So that was like a nice way to implement that working with programs that provide after school.
I'm wondering, do you have a preference in terms of age group, Like, is there a favorite group of clients that you work with.
I love second graders and then I love the sixth of the eighth grade. Why because they got little attitudes and it's so fun because there's all little personalities. It's just like they actually are like who they're going to be. That's why I like second grade and then sixth of the eighth grade. Those are like the very who it's the very experimental years and then they're trying to figure out who they are, and so I like being in the space to provide them with the support and the person that can go to if they have questions. Working at the elementary school, that was my favorite group because they were always missed p I have a question about this. I'm like, did you ask your mom? Is your mom? And they're like she won't answer it. I'm like, Okay, here we go. And it's just I like that age because they have so many questions and they just are trying to be young adults and try to navigate that space, and I'm just like I want to be there to support them on that journey.
I love it. I love it so even outside of like an art therapy setting. What kinds of questions can we be asking ourselves as we are pursuing creative kinds of things to stay connected to, like our feelings and emotions as we are exploring creative pursuits.
Honestly, just how am I feeling doing this? That's like the number one why am I getting mad? And then the number one thing I also like I took from undergrad and I bring it to my patients when they're working on our project. If you're starting to feel yourself get frustrated, give yourself a break and acknowledge that, Okay, I'm frustrated right now, I need to break come back to it with fresh eyes. And then sometimes just do you actually want to be like using whatever it is that you're used? Do you want to be using there? Do you want to use something else? And now are you forcing yourself to use this? Because sometimes I'd be like, M I want to use markers, and I'm like, I don't want to use markers right now, because sometimes you just think I'm gonna use markers. It's just like I dont want to use markers. I want to be a little more tactile, Like what do you need also do like a physical body check. I want to work with Clay, I want to do something with my hands. So just asking yourself though, like how am I feeling? Do I want to use this material? Do I need to break? Do I feel done? Like? Am I happy with it? Am I content? Or do I want to remove it out my space?
Very helpful questions. Where can we stay connected with you? Pierre? What is your website as well as any social media handles like you'd like to share.
On Instagram you can find me at p erad dot b and that's p I E R R A D as a dog dot b as in boy and that's on Instagram. And then on TikTok you can find me at Pierra dB. It's the same thing, just a little dot that's there.
Got it will be short. Include all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today. Really appreciate it.
No problem, This was so nice. I liked it.
Thank you. I'm so glad Piera was able to join us and share her expertise today, So learn more about her and the work she's doing. Be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com Slash Session three fifty three, and don't forget to text two of your girls right now and tell them to check out the episode. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into this topic or just be in community with other sisters, come on over and join us in the sister Circle. It's our cozy corn of the Internet designed just for black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Frida Lucas, Elise Ellis, and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. Look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take it care
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