Session 351: Navigating A Career Change

Published Mar 20, 2024, 7:00 AM

One consequence of the pandemic was that it forced us to take inventory of all of the things in our life that we may be unsatisfied with, and for many of us, career is at the top of that list. Maybe you want to try on some new hats in the same field, or even pivot to a new industry entirely, but the question often is, how do I get started? Joining me today to answer that question is author and career coach, Janice Sutherland. Having successfully navigated multiple mid-career transitions herself, Janice specializes in helping mature Black women seek meaningful career and life transformations in their midlife. 

During our conversation, Janice and I discussed some workplace red flags that may indicate it’s time for a career change, overcoming the financial and personal fears that stop us from making a necessary pivot, and how to set yourself up for success once a change has been made.

About the Podcast

The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.

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Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session three fifty one of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after a word from our sponsors. One consequence of the pandemic is that it forced us to take inventory of all the things in our life that we may be unsatisfied with, and for many of us, career is at the top of that list. Maybe you want to try on some new heads in the same field, or even pivot to a new industry entirely, but the question often is how do I get started? Joining me today to answer that question is author and career coach Janie Sutherland. Having successfully navigated multiple mid career transitions herself, Janet specializes in helping mature Black women seek meaningful career and life transformations in their midlife. During our conversation, Janis and I discussed some workplace red flags that may indicate its time for a career change, overcome the financial and personal fears that stop us from making a necessary pivot, and how to set yourself up for success once a change has been made. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media using the hashtag TBG in session or join us over in the Sister Circle to talk more about the episode. You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Janais great to be Hey, thanks having me, Doctor Joy.

So, you were the first female CEO to lead a multimillion dollar telecoms company in the Caribbean, built in twenty seventeen, but you walked away from this role to start your own company. Can you walk us through this career change and what motivated you to make this change?

I think the motivation there is I don't already move countries. You can tell about my accent. I'm English born, but I moved to the Caribbean from a successful career to have a different life, and that lie seemed to ramp up. So I made the decision. I was then in my fifties, as my fifties rapidly approaching my sixties now, and decided this wasn't the life I'd signed up for, so it's time to make a change. And if I don't do it, something else will.

So is there anything that happened, because it feels like, you know, many of us have these like a how moments, or like something happens and we're like, I need to make some changes, or my values are not quite an alignment. Was there any specific thing that led to this p.

There was definitely a values challenge because at the time we were going through a major restructuring and I looked at where the organization was going and realized that's not where I want to be going in my career. In fact, when I moved to the Caribbean, I already decided that I reached the peak of my career. I didn't intend to be c sweet. I never came to do this job. I came to have a step down, but I found myself being ramped up to even more work. I then start experiencing my second what I can recall my second bout of burnout, and my body was telling me that this is not working for you. You need to do something.

So what would you define as a career change? And how is this different from me applying your skills to a different role or shifting industries. How would you define a career change?

I think a career change that both terms you've said there are overlapping. A career change is what defines for you. You can stay in the same industry and take a different role within that industry, or you could do a total career pivot, which is what most people think about, and they think about major career changes, particularly over a certain age. Definitely for a midlife career change, what you find is a lot of women utilizing the skill sets and knowledge that they've garnered over the years and applying that in a different way. So for me, I had a total career pivot, so moved from the corporate world went into entrepreneurship. Never been an entrepreneur before, but I knew what I wanted from my values what I wanted out of life. I wasn't going to get it in the corporate world. So I had to define that and create that for myself.

So was your immediate thought, Okay, this does not exist in this role, I have to create it for myself. Or did you just look around and see if there were other rules that you could apply for that would give you a better fit.

The challenge I had at that particular points. I live on a small island. I live on an island of one hundred thousand, one hundred thousand people, and not in the UK. In the UK. What I've done career changes, I've made moves. I've been able to change cities. I've been able to change industries. I've been able to get a job at the similar level to what I was doing or higher At that time. I suppose a big fish in a small pond. It was a very prestigious role. People knew in the supermarket. It came a lot of cachet for want of a better word, with the role, and I didn't want that. That's not what I wanted. I didn't want to be recognized anymore. I think I just wanted to be me without the additional pressure of having a whole network. We went through various situations, hurricanes, one of the core forms of communication for a country that comes with additional pressure, and so it's various things that kind of led me to think, well, this is time for a change for me. I enjoyed it, it was good, but I need to do something for me.

Now, got it. So you mentioned that you were kind of able to see the writing on the wall in terms of where your business was going before you lived. But for other people, what may be some red flags or indications to them that it is time for a career change.

We're talking about career change maybe a maturer woman. And the way things are going now is that we are living longer. So if you're a woman in her forties fifties, you probably have fifteen to twenty more years of work life theoretically before you get to officially retire. So my question always is is can you see yourself doing that particular role from the fifteen to two years And if the answers know, then you've got time to do something about it. It could be in the situation that you're an environment that's maybe toxic, that's just not working for you. You're not getting the elusive work life balance, you're not getting the promotions that you believe you are capable of getting, You're dealing with microaggressions. There's a whole variety of things that could single a change for you, and it's all unique for each of us depending on our situation.

Got it okay? Okay? So a lot of your work now does involve coaching women through these pivots in career changes. What would you say are some of the more common anxieties that I've been come up with them?

It's easier to say fear, but fear comes in many guises. So it could be fear of failure because if I made this change, suppose I don't get it right, Suppose it's something different, Suppose I don't have the skill set. It could be fear of losing what you've already accrued that I mean, like a sunk cost fallacy where you've put so much effort into a particular type of career that you're thinking and wasting that career if I don't do it. A lot of women will cite finance as a challenge, and whilst finance does play a role, it is not always the be all, and when you really dig down into what the challenges are about why they want to change, it is not finance because you also have to consider, Okay, if you're in that role, what's your price? If it's making you feel the way you feel and you're uncomfortable, how much? What is your walkaway price? How much to keep you to stay? There could be precious from family. I'm first generation immigrants, so for us women of my age, sometimes we were the first to go to university, We were the first to have the proverbial big job. Are we letting people down? I often see women. I say to some women that sometimes we give our parents bragging rights because our parents probably sacrificed a lot to send us to university, to put us through school, and we feel like we're letting them down by doing that. That's just a few There's a lots more. And as I said, every woman is unique.

Yeah, So I want to dig a little deeper into the sunken cars fallacy, right, because I do think that that's one that comes up a lot, Right, like this idea that I spent a really long time building this career, can I just let it all go now? And like did I waste my time? Can you talk a little bit about how you might culture with someone around this concern?

Well, it goes back to what I said about what's your price? What will it take to keep you where you are? What are you looking for out of your career? If it's making you miserable, is that a reason to really staying? So that's making you unhappy could be even detrimental to your health, because, as you said, the body has a great way of giving us warning signs of when things are not quite going right or the way it should do it in our careers. I would then consider, don't think of you starting over. You're starting from experience because you have acquired a level of skill. You've acquired experiences, you've acquired knowledge that actually puts you in a great position to transfer some of those skills. So you could be looking at roles that, whilst are not directly the same as what you sun call your money into, there could be skills a lot of skills you take away from what you've learned that can apply into a different role. So we look at things like that we've taken away from the role. We also look at your values, because again, what you wanted maybe in your twenties, your thirties, possibly your forties, the money, the prestige and everything that comes with the financial aspect. It could be that when you get to your fifties, you want something different, You want to take a slower pace. You want to you want to enjoy what life is bringing to You want to enjoy the fruits of your labor per se over those years. So then we also look at values and what your priorities are as well. Along with that.

More of America Conversation after the Break, Jannee. I wonder are you finding that most of the people who you work with in coaching are they leaving voluntarily like you did, like ahead of something happening, like okay, I can see where this is going. I want to make a shift. Or are you often working with clients who have kind of been forced out or like it was intolerable anymore for them to be in a police and now they're making a shift.

I would say seventy five percent of the women I work with are planning, and that's what I help them do is to create a plan, because it's far better to be in control of the process than feel like you've been thrust and forced into the process. So if you look at yourself and you're saying a lot of wamen, I work with the fifties, maybe say, well, I've had a very successful career. I know I'm good at what I do, but this isn't what I see myself doing for X amount of period. I know I may have have children to put through college, but at the end of college, once they've gone to college, I don't have that responsibility per se, It's now time for me. How can I plan for that? So we set about working on a plan. It could be that they need to create maybe some sort of slush fund to enable them to do what they need to do. It could be that they start studying while they're working to support the next phase of their career. What that looks like. So it's all about creating that plan. The twenty five percent who have been forced the situation, that's a different conversation because sometimes they're, for one of a better word, maybe traumatized by the experience. So it's really about them building rebuilding the confidence and letting them know it wasn't about you. This situation wasn't about you. But an organization has to downsize, has to make that change. It's not personal. However, what can we take away from the situation you find yourself in right now? You may have extra time. You may not considered career change, but now you've actually had the time to sit down and think, WHOA, I wasn't entirely happy doing that, This is a great opportunity. I am very much looking at seeing opportunities in the misfortune. M H.

That feels consistent with what I think we heard from a lot of people in the midst of the pandemic and even in the wake of all of these layoffs, is that the unexpected silver lining is that people have more time to kind of look at like, Hey, did I actually enjoy that? And might I want to do something different now?

Absolutely so.

You mentioned this a little bit in one of your earlier answers around our relationships with our parents and sometimes how their expectations can then maybe keep us in a career longer than we wanted to. But I'm curious if there are any other cultural or societal expectations that may play a role, particularly for Black women when they're considering a career change.

Yes, I mean, I think we also from a black women's perspective, we are seeing as the women that have it under control, and we don't want to be seen as being out of control or indecisive. If we're making this change, especially, we may have spent an awful lot of time creating this career. I know definitely for me when I was making the change, when I was changing out of this last role from the CEO, I was asked if there was something wrong with me? Had I been forced out? Was I crazy to leave a good job? And persons couldn't recognize that it wasn't about the job. I was actually doing this for me. So coultry may get a little bit of side eye because are they lying? Are they really are they being forced out? Are they being truthful about what they're doing? And sometimes I think persons because they see the outside, they're on the outside looking in, and you look like you have this fantastic job, you had everything going for you. You've got the car, the house, the shoes, the clothes. That isn't satisfying what we're feeling inside that look, we're just not happy doing what we're doing. I don't need all that. If I have a little peace of mind, if I can follow the pashion I want to do so sometimes it's negotiating or should I say it's ignoring? Should I say ignoring what the naysayers may do or may say about what you're doing, Because this is your decision. Nobody else can live your life for you. It's down to you.

So let's say you're working with a client in who isn't ready for a complete career change, but they might be interested in maybe like shifting to another role in the same industry. What kinds of things make you work with them to do well?

The first thing I'd say is that that's great. If you have found an organization and that's a cultural fit for you that you're comfortable with, fabulous, that's half the work. That's probably half the work done. What we'd start looking at again is what are you looking at? What are you looking for? It's very similar to career change. What are you looking for on your next role? Where can you get it? Where can you get it in the organization that you currently are. Have you defined the role you want to do and what it looks like. Are there persons currently in the organization doing a role that you're aspiring to Can you sit down with them? Because again, from the outside looking in, we think it's all rainbows and flowers, but in reality, maybe something different. And you're in a fortunate situation to sit down that person, maybe have the mentor you, maybe sponsor you, Maybe you can get some sort of career swap, try the role for a day. So you're in a great situation where you can really maximize the opportunity and talk to persons who already doing who are in the field doing what you're aspiring to do. So we look at who you could tap into. What's your network? Are there any gaps between where you are right now to where you want to go? And how can we fill those gaps, especially where you are right now?

So you mentioned networking, and I think that that is a bit of a scary word for a lot of people. And I don't know that most of us even know we were talking about when we mean network. So what are some tips for like getting started with networking?

Well, first of all, what I learned very quickly person myself is living on a small island, I cannot connect with my target market. My target market doesn't live here pretty much. My target market is overseas, So I've had to learn to network virtually. So you don't have to go into a room to shake hands and have thirty second elevator pitch or whatever it is you have that people are frightened of. You can connect with people on LinkedIn. I've made some great relationships with persons on LinkedIn who I meet when I travel. I can go and meet them and they've come here and I've met them. So you can look at how maybe you can write pieces. You can write blog articles about particular topic they're interested in and put that on LinkedIn. So you can look at the virtual ways of connecting. If you have an opportunity to go to conferences, is that a way for you to basically set out who is it you'd like to meet? If you look at the ten d's that are going to the conference, who is it you'd like to meet? Can you reach out to them before you go to have a connection and say, let's have a coffee. I'd like to have a quick chat. Maybe that's something you wrote. So it's about thinking outside the box when it comes to networking. It's not the additional I need to be in a powasuit in a room shaking sweaty palms.

Yeah, so you mentioned like writing blag posts and articles on LinkedIn as a way for you know, trying to maybe increase your network. Are there other tips and things that you found helpful in using LinkedIn that you can offer to the community.

Yes, I tend LinkedIn lives. If someone's doing the topic you're quite interested in, jump on the LinkedIn live, ask your questions, connect with other persons that maybe ask similar questions to your similar interests. When you're on LinkedIn, it's not just about putting the post, it's about interacting with the post. This is about creating connections. We look to have connections and followers, So if someone responds to your posts that you've posted, you respond to them. If you see a post that you like, you can comment. You don't have to be connect to those individuals. So it's just basically using it to reach out to persons that you're interested in. Maybe there's person in an organization that you'd like to connect you'd like to know more about. You can ask people that work for that organization what's it like to work there? Or how can I find out more about this? Again, without having to feel like you're obligated or under pressed to do that, So don't get frightened by the platform. Just use it, Just start using it. And if you haven't been very adept at using it, I would say set yourself a target maybe fifteen minutes a day, fifteen minutes every other day where you're going to interact with posts. If there's people in your feed that you may be connected, but the content they write or the content they post isn't for you, you can actually take them out of your feed without losing the connection. So there's various ways of making sure the feed or what you see is relevant to what you're looking at and what you're interested in.

More from our conversation after the break, So, Jennis, it sounds like a lot of your suggestions are interacting with people at a high level, not necessarily sending them private messages, which is I think what people often go straight to, right like, oh this person works in this cool organization. Let me send them the message that I want to be connected. What are the strategies for like actually sending an impactful message to someone if you're going to reach out in that way.

If you're going to reach out in that way, don't just connect. The message I normally say is that I see you, we have the similar interests, or you liked the particular post, or you made a comment on this and I have same views. It'd be great to be connected. Keep it very simple. It doesn't have to be, you know, a whole book or an essay, but show that you've had some connections, show that you've been interested in what they've done. It maybe an interesting post, or I really like the post you did, I have thoughts about it. These are thoughts I had about it, or I'd like to know more about this. So again, keep it simple. Just keep it very, very simple.

So you mentioned earlier that sometimes finances come up as an area of contingent for people who are considering a career change, and sometimes they make it maybe more of an issue than it typically is, or maybe can you say a little bit about how people can actually take care of their finances while they are thinking about a career shift. So what kinds of things do they need to keep in mind around like financial stability but also considering a move.

The first things people think about when they're going to change careers is that are going to take a drop in salary. That's usually the first fear, and that's because they're usually thinking, I'm going in an entry level you're not necessarily going in an entry level unless you're moving from maybe going from a corporate role to surgeon. Obviously you're not going to go you're not going like for like. But if you've had a professional role, you've had lots of transferable skills. There are ways of looking at the skills that role requires that could align with what you're currently doing now. If there's a situation where you feel that look and may have to take if you drop in salary, look at it as maybe a temporary stop, because this isn't where you're going to end up. You may want to take a step back to come forward temporarily because it gives you a chance to get a foot in the door of what you want to do. If you know that this is what you want to do in advance. We talked about planning then actually have a fund set aside or some savings set aside that says I need to save X amount per month or whatever period, so that allows me not to have to worry about the financial aspect and while I pursue this next career stage. So there's lots of different ways of getting around it. Are there ways you can cut back if necessary? Is it a case, maybe you do wait a little bit because you know, right now you may have children at college. You know, financially, it's not feaes for me to say I can't. I've going to go and to do that now take a drop in salary. But I do know that they have another eighty months left at college. Then after that I will have some funds available. So how can I start planning my career so in a position when that happens, I can start straight away. So it's just looking at it from different angles. I have a Macguyva mindset. Is what I say is that there's always a solution. You may not seed straight away, but there's always solution, and it doesn't have to be pretty, but you have to focus on does it get the job done?

So, in your experience, have there been specific industries that you feel like have been more flexible or accommodating to people who make career changes later in life.

I haven't come across cicular industries. I think generally, what I have found is that industries are now coming to terms the fact that we are a aging population and the skill sets me main Once sometimes we took for granted having this pipeline of younger workers coming through is diminishing, so they're having to consider maturer workers and I want to say older. I'm not say old because I am of the vintage workforce, but maturer workers. So they are starting to get a little more flexible because we have more responsibilities outside of children may be careers. There's more flexibility and what we're doing, and I think the time is right. If you're in a situation where you want to go to an organization, it's right for you to lay out what is it you're looking for, how you can be supported to do your role because we do bring a level of experience you're not going to find from a younger workforce. It just stands to reason because we have accrue that experience.

Do you think, Dan, is there are certain things that workforces can put in police to be able to support people who are making this career change.

Yes. When I was at school, when I was much younger, we had like career session, so the age maybe high school, middle school, not sure what the age they call it in the US. We would have to then select the topics we were going to do that would determine the rest of our lives. Pretty much because you're taking the exams and stuff like that. So I think what we need to start doing is actually introducing a career where we always have career assessments. We start looking and having conversations about where do you see yourself next in your career when we have our appraisals and we have our one to ones. I was always very proactive in asking my employees, where do you see yourself? What is the role that you're looking at next in your career? How can I support you in getting there? What does that look like? So we can start having those and be quite open those conversations and not be afraid of thinking we're losing someone. You know, someone's far happier if you, as an employer, are having that conversation with your employee that allows you to prepare for that person eventually looks to move on. They can help cope to the next person coming into their role. So it's all that succession planning and it's very useful to have that structure in place.

So let's see, and I imagine you do work with clients who you know, you get them ready for their career change process, and then they are on the other side and now, hey, I'm in my new career. I'm wondering what it looks like for them to continue thriving in this new role, Like what kinds of things do people need to consider on the other side of that decision.

On the other side of that decision, first thing to consider is that sometimes we get a little bit scared because we're in new pastures. We're a little unsettled because it's new. Give yourself some time to settle into that position. Give yourself some time or grace to say, well, I'm new to this, and don't be afraid if you need some support, if you need help, if you have questions and you need answers to don't be afraid to reach out. I always tell persons that organizations don't employ individuals to fail because it's a waste of time for them. They've taken a lot of time and energy and money to recruit you, so they want you to be a success. So you need in a position to say, well, actually I need support on this or I'm not quite sure about that, and reach out and take that support as and when needed. If you look around you say well this isn't quite right, this isn't right for me, Maybe it's not the right culture, it's not what I thought he was going to be. Don't beat yourself up. What is it you can do? What is it about that position that you're unsettled about. Do some deep diving, some investigation, some internal reflection about what is it about that role that doesn't appeal to you now you're in it. It could be that you're comparing it to a previous role. It could be that you, as I said, don't have the necessary information you need to be a success in that role. You feel like you have to be perfect. Perfectionism is a big one. You feel like you have to be perfect because obviously you knew your other role inside out. You're in this position now you don't know as much. So take that pressure off yourself and take the time to acclimatize to the new role.

Yeah, I'm curious how you may work with a client who you're struggling with their Jennis, because I think a lot of black women are a high achieving and have been groomed in society has told us that we need to be twice as good, and you know all of these things. So what kinds of things do you do to work with clients who are maybe getting into some of these perfectionistic spaces in this new.

Role, sometimes just about asking them what would happen if you didn't do it? Whatever the action is that you feel like you have to be perfect about what's the worst that could happen. Sometimes women don't want to ask for help, but again, if you don't ask, you don't know what could happen. And if the answers no, then you're no worse off than where you were when you started because it was a no then without you actually making the question. But if you ask and you get a positive response, you've got the support. Who are you being perfect for? Who are you trying to impress? Who is important to? Sometimes we're thinking that other people are watching or assessing it, or looking at what we're doing, and quite honestly, sometimes they're just not. So take a step back and think about if you talk about ten percent send to that perfectionist actions that you are going to do, where could you apply that ten percent so that it benefits you more Because no one's going to notice that difference because you've set yourself such a high bar that even if you were fifty percent less, it probably still one hundred percent better than that other person would have produced.

Yeah, I think that's so true. Thank you so much for sharing it. So you mentioned that one of the things that people can do to really support themselves on the other side of making this decision to do a career change is to get support and engage in other resources that might be helpful. Are there any things that come to mind from you that you found helpful for many of your clients or people you've worked with.

I listen to a lot of podcasts, a personally, myself, reading articles, as I said, following people online. So there's lots of different things you can do to help yourself. And I think talking to other women who have maybe done career changes themselves, who you've seen or you admire, and ask them how did they do it, how did you do it, What did you do differently? What would you advise? What would your advice be? I sometimes tell women you're not that special in the nicest possible way, because quite often we walk around with this me and myself and eye mentality in that we imagine that nobody else is going through what we're going through. Nobody else could understand what we've been through. I'm all on my own I have to keep it all in, and that then starts making things a lot more difficult because you're holding it in and it's making you more frustrated, when in fact, if you tap the woman the shoulder, the woman next to you, or a couple of chairs down and say look, I'm having this challenge or I've experienced this and say, oh yeah, I've been through that, this is what I did. So having that community or tapping into women who have maybe been through a whole process before and not thinking that you're on your own is the first thing to stop thinking because it's not me, myself and I. There's a plethora of women out there who have been where you have been and have been successful. There's also remembering that you didn't get to where you are now without being resilient, without having the strength to get where you are now. So it's also about tapping into that as well.

Thank you so much for that, Janie. So as we read, but we're closing, advice would you give to somebody who is considering a career change but maybe they're still on the field.

Talk to somebody about it, about allaying your fears and your concerns, because you need to understand what it is that's stopping you mentally from your mindset to help you overcome some of those fears you're feeling. And if you decide, I suppose it's harsh, but is this something you really see yourself doing for the next ten to fifteen years if you're feeling the way you're feeling. And I'd also say, you don't need to be empowered when you already have the power. So sometimes women are waiting for someone to give them something to make them feel ready, but you already have it inside of you. You just need to be able to unleash it.

And how can we tap into that genius? Because that's powerful. I think a lot of us sit in there space so feeling like we're waiting for somebody to give us the sign to go and make this decision. So how can people tap into that?

It's about looking back at how far you've come, look at your journey. For me personally, I was a single, divorce mother of two in my twenties. I had no idea become a CEO of a multimillion dollar company. That wasn't But I did know that I was strong, I did know that I had a goal. I did know that what I'd achieved so far, I'm strong enough to go through this whole process in life. There's a lot more going for me. So it's tapping into your resilience you face adversity before, and tapping into your bound's backability because you've bounced back. It's about looking at where you have face adversity in saying, Okay, what are my learnings from that? It didn't keep me down, it gave me something. I learned something from it and how can I apply that going forward? It's about having that inner self belief for stronger than we think. And I know it's a cliche term, but the fact you're here now doing what you're doing where you are right now has already proved that.

Thank you so much for this, Janis. I know that the community we will want to stay connected with you. So where can we find you online? What is your website as well as any social media channels you'd like to share?

But my website is Janisutherland dot com. I keep it nice and simple. My podcast is This Woman can on all podcast platforms and as LinkedIn is my happy place LinkedIn and Instagram my happy places you can follow me and I am Jane Sutherland or connect with me on LinkedIn as I am Janey Sutherland, keeping very very simple perfect.

We will be sure to include Holliday in our show notes. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today, Jennis.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm great to speak to you, Doctor Joey.

Thank you. I'm so glad Janis was able to share her expertise with us for this episode. To learn more about her and the work she's doing, be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls slash Session three fifty one, and don't forget to text two of your girls right now and tell them to check out the episode. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into this topic or just be in community with other sisters, come on over and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Frida Lucas, Elise Ellis, and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.

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Therapy for Black Girls

The Therapy for Black Girls podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a license 
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