Session 350: Black Women Navigating the Glass Cliff

Published Mar 13, 2024, 7:00 AM

If you’re a Black woman working in corporate who has been disturbed by the recent trends to roll back DEI initiatives, you’re not alone. Joining me today to help break down these patterns, as well as offer some tips for Black women navigating the Corporate Ladder, is leadership advisor and keynote speaker Dr. Yasmene Mumby. Dr. Mumby is the founder of The Ringgold, a firm that has helped some of the most impactful organizations in the world achieve their mission-critical organizational ambitions.

During our conversation, she shares some things to consider before accepting a promotion at work, how to advocate for yourself when your work begins to outpace your pay level or title, and some strategies for navigating microaggressions in the workplace.

About the Podcast

The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.

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Producers: Fredia Lucas & Ellice Ellis

Production Intern: Zariah Taylor

Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session three point fifty of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after a word from our sponsors. In the past few years, you may have heard about companies rolling back their promise DEI initiatives, or promoting black women to leadership positions during public controversy without offering them the proper support. If you're a black woman in corporate who has been disturbed by these trends, you're not alone. Joining me today to help break down these patterns, as well as offer some tips for black women navigating the corporate Ladder is leadership advisor and keynote speaker. Doctor Yazmin Mumby. Doctor Mumby is the founder of the Ringgold, a firm that has helped some of the most impactful organizations in the world, including the ACOUU and Harvard Radcliffe Institute, achieved their mission critical organizational ambitions. Doctor Mumby weaves in her framework the easeful Leader for high performing leaders who are looking to reclaim their time, lead with ease and thrive in any environment. During our conversation, we break down some things to consider before accepting a promotion at work, how to advocate for yourself when your work begins to outpace your pay level or title, and some strategies for navigating microaggressions in the workplace. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media using the hashtag tpg in session or join us over in the Sister Circle to talk more about the episode. You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Doctor Mumby.

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to join this conversation than to be in connection with you.

Absolutely absolutely, So you are a sustainable leadership advisor. Can you tell us what that means and what your typical workday looks like.

Basically, I support ambitious, high achieving, highly productive leaders, most of them identify as women, Black women, from burning out. I support them with creating the infrastructures, the policy, the guidelines, even down to the implementation plan before you hire the person, so that you don't have to work beyond your capacity so you're not burning out. Started doing this and work life. A lot of my professional career has been around balancing a portfolio of different projects across multiple sectors, and that led itself to me also focusing on my personal life and how I can also work to have equilibrium or at least interweaving parts of my life so that I'm not over indexing in one side and feeling burnt out in the other. And that's become even more important now that I have a little baby who's now ten months.

Oh wow, I can imagine nothing like a little one that kick you into we having to reimagine some things.

I'm in another gear. I'm in another gear.

So much of your work is really focused on creating easeful leaders. Can you tell me what does that mean? To be an easeful leader.

It's a leader who is operating from the core of their values and not somebody else's. It's a leader who takes into consideration for every meaningful, impactful, transformative decision, how is this going to impact my team, their wellbeing, their productivity, and the culture that we have on staff. A lot of folks been, a lot of organizations get caught up in production, production, production, and that's because sometimes we have external validators who are putting a lot of pressure on us to perform, to be visible. And it's our role as senior leaders or leaders managing the middle to support the adaptive part of our leadership roles, not just the technical, to say, hey, I understand what my team is going through. This is going on in the context of the world. If you aren't considering that or push for us to be more whatever, productive, more visible, more everything with less resources happens a lot at the time. If we continue down this path at this pace, this is what the impact will be, not just on our team morale and our team structure, but also for the quality of our work.

So it sounds like you have worked across a variety of sectors. It sounds like with lots of different leaders. Can you talk a little bit about some of the common challenges that have come up in your work with leaders?

Absolutely, I was just leading full day staff retreat on the West Coast with a leading advocacy organization nationally, and what I'm noticing in working with them, We're all dealing with this capacity issue, like do we have capacity to take on all these transformative goals and this expansive vision that we have for our work right now? And does it have to be right now because right now we're considering a reality that might stretch us even thinner than many of us on the team you already feel. So that is the collective theme that I'm noticing across my portfolio work currently, and that's going to be the subject of my next monthly newsletter around capacity.

So is it that people are kind of seeing so much need that they are trying to like take on additional task and like have the organization perform? Is that a part of it.

Sometimes and sometimes it's deep within the psyche of the organization where they feel like they have to perform at this pace to visibly look like they're being productive. And that's a difficult conversation to first have at the leadership level, noticing what has been their contribution to this reality, noticing the impact it's had on the rest of the direct reports, and then having the conversation with the board and or funder that might be pressing really hard on the gas And I understand that, you know, the macro also sometimes reflects the micro. So what's going on in vial with each leader where they feel like they have to contribute to this pace? And that's where my individual coaching really kicks in and where we see some changes because leadership is an extension of who you are and yourself in the way it's landing on others. And if we don't really on earth what's going on there through your leadership actions, you just going to be having a lot of people being impacted by you not doing the work and influencing your own practices of self compassion and support.

So I'm wondering, doctor Mombi, how do companies understand whether they're following their values or whether they're trying to like hitch to some arbitrary kind of sense of value.

Oh, that shows up in the numbers people are dropping, they're leaving. It shows up in their retention, it shows up in their staff. Lack of engagement shows up in not just exit interviews, but sometimes anonymous reviews. So glassdoor. It shows up when something has happened in the organization and it's highly visible and delicate, and folks need someone to come in and support them. And that's how I typically get connected to people because it's through word of mouth. They're like, yes, me and her team can come in here and help us objectively figure out the best path forward and also to support people through this transition and change management. I got to say a lot of that effort and work comes from my comfort being in the middle of what can be ambiguous and highly anxiety provoking for many leaders in the midst of organizational change and shifts. And that grounding really comes from my practice for myself of meditation and reflection and journaling and writing, and and it also helps that I was a teacher and a community organizer, and I'm the oldest of four, so I'm used to finding solutions.

You got a lot of experience in a lot of different ways to do this work. It sounds.

We all do.

We all do So you mentioned that a majority of the clients that you work with are often black women, and we know that black women are often expected to have these really high expectations, but also the pay and the promotion rates don't necessarily kind of match up with that. So can you tell me a little bit about what kinds of questions black women should be asking themselves and their supervisors if they feel like their level of work isn't necessarily matching either their pay grade or their.

Title, and not necessarily matching the team infrastructure to support them to be successful. Yes, we can talk about that. We can talk about that. So some of the questions, it depends on where you are in the process. So if you are considering a role, whether you're an internal candidate or external, these questions could be helpful. Whether you're in the thick of the role and you're seeing that your work is outpacing what was initially written down about what the role would be, these questions can be helpful. And if you are considering whether or not you want to stay in the role given that your work has outgrown what initially was supposed to be be within the scope of work, these questions could be helpful. One I would have the conversation with the decision maker, because having the conversation with folks who don't have decision making power can distract from the purpose of why you need to have such a conversation and move towards solutions. So I first narrow in is this the decision maker? And if this person isn't, then I need to find out who is so I don't waste my time. One of the questions I have folks consider is what's the scope of work initially laid out for this role or what has been the scope of work? What are you doing now within the scope of work? How have you exceeded the limits of what the scope of work were supposed to protect? And then what is the difference between the two, And how has that impacted not just your workload, but the time you have spent on the work, perhaps the quality. Most often you've been able to keep up high quality work even being limited and stretched, And how has it impacted the work assigned to other colleagues, Because if you're taking on additional work and you're noticing other colleagues don't have such a pace of work expected of them, nor quality, then chances are you might be taking on some of their work that they should have been doing or could be doing, and just aren't aware that now it's grown within their scope before instead of yours. So those are the first foundational because we've got to get really clear with the evidence. What do we see? And then I want to know what's going on socially collegially amongst your colleagues. How are you being treated? Are people asking you? Pinging you? Some people use Slack, some people use Microsoft teams? Are they pinging you fifty eleven times? Hey? Have you done this? Hey? How's this going? Hey? Can you give me an update on this? Chances are folks have already internalized that you are at this leadership role taking on more of this work, and are treating you such and have the expectations of you. But yet that hasn't translated into your pay, hasn't translated formally into your scope over for your job description, and it hasn't translated formally into the resources money you need to bring on the team or to support the team that you're supposed to have or do have to do more. And so that's the beginning, just the beginning, that's the analysis. Second part the process we go through Okay, what's the strategy. Who do we talk to, what's the messaging for each person? What do they care about most that would get them to understand what you're going through? How do we built empathy around that conversation? And then thirdly we go into actually role playing and mapping it out. What are we doing? And then fourth we go back to evaluation. What has happened? What are the results? That's kind of valuation. So this all occurs within an engagement of coaching around your leadership development, because so often we're out here on our own trying to figure it out and also implementing in a way that can feel isolating, even though other folks have gone through what you were going through are going through it alongside you, and that's sense of community helps embolden you to stand up for yourself.

So would somebody kind of reach out for your support if they are considering asking for a promotion? Like it sounds like you work with people who are mid level or even senior level leadership. But even if somebody's enjoying our conversation and they, you know, are in an organization and thinking like, Okay, I feel like I'm ready to move to that next level, they could reach out to you for some support around how to make that ask.

Oh yeah, A lot of the folks that I work with now, I've been with them since their promotion because they have grown in their awareness of what they have capacity to do and what they're capable of doing outside of what people expected them to do. And they have wonder curiosity and interest in exploring other realms of their work and that could connect to a different pay grade, a different role, a different organization. And so through inquiry based approach that I have with folks, I never present answers for people. I ask a lot of questionquestions and I listen and I understand more about what people care about, and I ask questions around their values and their alignment of what they're doing their day to day People come to their own clarity, and once they come to that clarity, that might lead to a promotion, and then once they're in the new role, it's like, Okay, how do I build this within my team?

So there's been lots of conversation, it feels like, particularly online, around black women's refusal to deal with microaggressions and that being read as antisocial. So can you say a little bit about like what suggestions you have for people who might be enjoying the conversation around like how to kind of do this dance that is sometimes required in co working spaces if you are not particularly fans of your coworkers.

We are human beings. We are not here for entertainment. As a team member, as a colleague. A lot of times we can be seen as the person who has to show up and be everything for everybody, and that often takes out our abiliity to be human, our humanity, and in looking at us devoid of such humanity, it's why aren't you performing or entertaining or being in the way that I expect of you absence of me considering your personhood. That's the culture within your organization. And then if people are acting in that way and forwarding on that dehumanization, if you will, then you got to wonder, okay, is this the place for me? And if you are going to stay and it doesn't overload you emotionally and you're in a financial position where you can stay. I would take it down to the most fundamental level of communication, and that is strictly technical, like I would not go into any emotional connected conversation because sometimes people won't appreciate that from you, and so we can get over extended emotionally for trying really really hard to in some instances appease folks appeal to their of empathy and they might not have it for us. So the more we do that, the less it will be reciprocated, and then that can also lead to further further burnout. So if you must stay, then I would keep the conversation to a technical foundational level that is central to your subject matter expertise in your role.

More from our conversation after the break so you mentioned earlier, dictum would be that some people do the calculation and sometimes it's just not possible for you to leave a work please, even if you feel like your spirit is not being felled, and you know, you feel like in tostile maybe even in some ways. So if someone is forced to kind of stay in a situation because bills have to be paid, what kinds of things would you suggest for them to continue to take care of themselves even in that kind of environment.

First, that's doing it. Else of where are the spaces in the organization where you feel you could be somewhat who you are without being penalized for who you are and where are the spaces where you just know there is little to no psychological safety. It would be a detriment for you to show up as you are because people would take advantage of it. So we need to understand the terrain that we're working with and then in those spaces, who are the people and do the same analysis and then take that and understand who you can and frankly cannot be in a room with alone and document document, document, So that's what you could do. Technically, you keep your scope of work very closely aligned to what you have been assigned to do, and you readily seek the decision maker within your team to pinpoint where in your scope of work you are operating outside of it because the work has been assigned to you, or you have literally outgrown the role and you've taken on more, and you can do it so that you all can have a conversation whether or not that needs to be reconciled. And when I say whether or not needs to be reconciled, you can keep doing that extra work. But then we got to make some adjustments on the pay of the promotion, or you can choose, Hey, that's not the work we need to be doing, and they might say that's not the work they need you to be doing anymore. Then then they take some things off of your plate. Because if you're feeling squeezed within the amount of work you're doing and the colleagues you're working with and really honestly have looked at your reality and you cannot make a transition at this moment, then we need to decrease the amount of stress and the input from many people into your work so that you can literally make it day to day. It can be emotionally taxing, it can be very exhausting, and it can be done with those picular instances. I move very strategically and tactfully because I know it is a delicate situation for that leader.

So I wonder, doctor may, if you can set us straight on the purpose of HR in workplaces, because I feel like we've been hearing a lot about, you know, reminding people HR is there to protect the company, is not necessarily there to protect you as an employee. So can you say a little bit about if HR is a resource for us to go to and if not, what are the spaces that we can kind of lean on as resources if we're having difficulties in a workplace.

On paper, yeah, HR supposed to be supportive, but like you said, we have been hearing and folks have been coming on around like their interest isn't in us. It's in the protection of the organization to keep going. Yeah, yeah, so what else can you do? So a lot of the folks that I work with, it's through leadership coaches, it's through the colleagues who they have found to be trustworthy. It gives you a built in team to protect yourself when you have to be sometimes in a defensive mode in an organization that you feel just isn't there for you. And like I said, everything is temporary. So in a situation where HR isn't necessarily expressing as if they're there for you, then long term that can't stay as the reality for you. It can't. And there are other spaces. We just have to find the bridge to them. And in the meantime, there are ways to better support yourself along the way, in addition to you know, attorneys, because that far I know some people has gotten that far.

So some of the other terms that often come up when we're talking about black women in the workspaces is confirmation bias and the glass Cliff, and I know you talk a lot about this in your work. Can you define those terms for us?

Confirmation bias, there's a bias towards AH. As a leader, I'm looking for this kind of information to quantify or analyze whether or not this decision is the best for our team and for the role and for the work. And so instead of looking at the full span of all the evidence and the train of the reality of what's going on across the sector, across the role, this leader looks for particular instances of evidence that match up with where they want to go anyway and their decision making. Confirmation bias biasing their confirmation glass Cliff, Oh, we need to do a longer conversation on this, but I'll just start here. A lot of times organizations find themselves realizing, oh, our leadership does not reflect the values that we say that we have, our leadership does not reflect the population of folks we're working with, or our work is directly impacted by and we need to change that. And so sometimes in those instances when that realization occurs, it's also sometimes occurring at the same time as an internal crisis or a highly delicate issue has occurred that is central to the survival of the organization, and sometimes organizations go, ah, let's put the two together and let's have in some cases the black woman be the leader and lead us through this difficult, turbulent time. And to make sure she has what she needs to do it, let's promote her and Vola will figure it out together. And so it's kind of like you're on a glass cliff. You've ascended in leadership, but yet you're literally on the cliff of success and or failure. And while you're up there, it's glass because everybody's watching you. And so this reality of wow, I've worked so hard to reach this point in my career to have this level of trust across the organization, and now I'm questioning whether or not I'm set up for success and whether or not people are watching, waiting, witnessing, ready for me to either be successful or fail walking on a class cliff. So is this.

Typically a conscious decision by leadership. Is it typically like, oh, let's find like a black woman to take the fall for this, or is it that it ends up being that way because black women are kind of thought to be the ones who can save everything for everybody.

Yeah, I wouldn't be telling the truth if I didn't tell you that. I know in certain conversations, in certain moments of crisis, some leaders realize if we don't have a person to be upfront leading this kind of initiative, it could lead to further damage to our reputation. And sometimes people will then look towards a group of people and see if there is someone within who is willing and interested in leading. And that does not necessarily mean that person isn't qualified for it. They probably been qualified and you just gave him a shot because as you're struggling.

So let's talk about if we find ourselves at the pinnacle of making this decision right, because I think for a lot of people, this is the life changing opportunity, right like this title, there's probably lots of money, not probably a lot of resources, which you've already talked about, right, So you're being set up for failure, but it is I think, probably like a once in a lifetime kind of shot. And so what kinds of things should somebody even ask themselves, like if they recognize this is probably not gonna end up well for me, but do I not take the shot. What kinds of conversation should we be having with ourselves?

Well, it actually might end up going well for you. It might. It just means you also might not be set up initially to be successful. And that's where the conversations around what you need to be successful need to be had. And do not feel bad about it, because at the end of the day, it is your name, not theirs, on this work. So whatever you need, it's a conversation. Just like they need you. You come on, you need some things.

Too, So what kinds of things might you need to be successful in this kindilyst situation.

Who's the staff that's supporting me on this that's huge? Who is the staff? And do we need to hire externally? They don't necessarily have to be FTEs. They could be consultants, they could be contract colleagues. Coming in, what's the budget and is the budget set? Because as I get in here and I find out what we need more of, we need to have more conversations about upping the budget. That's got to be on the table. That fluidity and that trust for them to have in you in honoring your expertise when you say we need more funds to do this this and this, and of course you're gonna be meticulous and deliberate and intentional about what you share and the price points for each initiative and what it would take in the team. But that needs to be there money and the staff, the team, and thendly, the trust to listen to what you have said and to not actively or indirectly, rather not try to dismiss it, not try to undermine it. You have me in this role for reason. Trust what I got to say. Listen to what I have to say. You know, if those three things are there from the jump, then go for it. If they aren't, but yeah, you still want to do it because one, like you said, it could be a life changing opportunity decision, and two it can open up other avenues for you to be in collaboration with other organizations, other sectors. So for the visibility, cool, but make sure you, like I said, are documenting, documenting, documenting, because no matter what happens on the other end, you will have the story and the narrative and the truth of what it took to get to that point, what happened in the middle of him, and how you were a leader through it. Because whatever the organization does. You're one person. That's what the organization does. But you, as a leader were essential in these parts of the work, and you led them to the best of your abilities and to the extent of your expertise. And so you make sure you are very clear on that narrative that you will have to share no matter what at the end, whether the initiative went the way you needed it to go and wanted it to go and the way you let it, or folks just didn't honor all the expertise you had, all the work you did and chose to do something differently. That's on them, But you know what you did.

More from our conversation after the break, you know, doctor Mumby, I'm curious if there are any pretty public examples of black women who could have been walking off the glass cliff but then it actually turned around to be a success for them. Are you aware of any stories of people we could look to for examples.

Of this, Yes, I do. To be a black woman in the workspace is to be a highly watched, surveilled, scrutinized, and that in itself is like living, walking, working at the edge of a glass cliff. So there are examples all around us, And what I will share is that, in particular, I've been watching her leadership for a while and I thought of her as you mentioned this question. So I looked to Sheila Johnson. So she was the co founder of BT Opened Up Salamander had just released a memoir about her life, her leadership in the midst of so much that many of us can relate to. And she's definitely at least one person who has not just walked on a glass cliff, but just shattered so many ceilings and so many barriers and has lived to tell I would lift her up right now.

Heard memoir is definitely on my two b red list because lots of people have had great things to say about it. Is that pay you're sharing that example. So we talked a little bit about microaggressions a little earlier, but I want us to back up a little bit because I think sometimes people don't even recognize that something that may be happening in the workspace is a microaggression. What suggestions would you have for people who are wondering, like, oh, is that behavior from the coworker, Like is this something I should be concerned about? What kinds of suggestions would you have there.

Yeah, sometimes you're thinking, wait, what's that or wasn't that? Look for a pattern of behavior. Look for the pattern, Look for who else they are speaking to and how they're speaking to them, and look for the pattern of behavior there. If it's not there, but it's shown up with you, you might have something here, and you keep documenting and documenting and documenting. I have folks who I work with look to this really good framework that orders thoughts that you have in conversations that can feel emotionally charged, and it's out of the management center Situation behavior SBI. So you ground the conversation in the situation when this occurred behavior, this is what I noticed. You did impact. This is the impact it has had on me on my work on my team. Situation behavior impact. That is the foundation they'll get you going. So notice the pattern and then when you have the pattern, document have the documentation in the pattern, have the conversation rooted in situation behavior impact. That is a good start.

We love a good framework to start the conversation. Thank you. That's helpful. So you mentioned early on in our conversation that you know a large part of your work and kind of stems from your own personal experience around like over indexing in work versus being available to your family. What kinds of suggestions do you have for people for how to leave work at work so that there is more of a balance in your life.

I like that you said so there is more of a balance, not so that there is balance, because I mean that's a practice and I don't know. I'm really into interweaving elements of yourself that bring you joy and make you feel a sense of being. Yeah, I look at time, look at how you're spending your time. So I have this offering at a mini workshop. It's called the Time Reclamation Blueprint, and it's basically a workshop around time and values that I distilled a portion of it into a document. It's on my website. You're free to get it. Look at your time, where are you spending it, and be honest with yourself, no judgment. It's just you looking at you. Where's your time, how you're feeling when you're doing it, and the things that you're doing during that time, and how you're feeling. You have to and it's the start time reclamation, reclaim your time.

Okay, doctor Mumby. There is a trend going around on TikTok. So I want to see if you want to play a little game with me. I don't know if you are you on TikTok at all or pay attention to TikTok.

I mean, I pay attention, but I'm not gonna officially.

We're not gonna go too far. We're not gonna go too far. Maybe you have seen this trend where people are like, how do I say this thing? But in a way that's not gonna get me? Fine, I'm I all right. So the first one is, how do you say? That's not my job? So you talked earlier about like your scope of work.

I got this. That's that's it. Oh, that sounds really interesting and exciting. Let me go back to my team and figure out if we have the capacity to do that and if it's within our scope at this point, because it might not be. And if it isn't, then I'm very open to collaborating with other colleagues who might have the capacity to do this.

Ooh, I like that one. Okay. The second one is I said that already or I just said that.

I absolutely understand what you just said, and I agree. I plus one. In our earlier conversations I connected to that idea because blah blah blah blah blah. I'm happy to see that you also are in agreement with it. Let's do da da da da da da da.

I love it. Okay, here's the last one. I'm swamped with work.

We might be at capacity at this point in the quarter, but let me go back and see if we can add this to our scope of work for quarter two or quarter three and see how we can backwards plan to make sure that what you're suggesting works within our team's capacity.

Oh. I love that. I also love how like the voice is like so much softer right because we're like, oh, let me try to massage this the.

Way I am. I'm giving myself away now. The softer, the softer my voice is, the more furious I am.

Yeah, So, doctor mummy, tell us where can we stay connected with you? It sounds like you already have at least one great resource on your website, So tell us what else can we find at your website? What is the website in any social media channels you want to share with us?

Oh? Yeah, definitely. So. My website is my name, It's www dot yasmine mumby dot com. Y A s M E n E m U m b y dot com. And I have the Time Reclamation Blueprint, I have meditations. I write monthly ish. I say ish because I'm a human and sometimes it don't come out every thirty days. A monthly ish newsletter that has all of the reflections and the tips and the insights that I've gathered over the month of working with organizations and clients I'm coaching. So nothing I put out there is in the abstract. It's all rooted in the practical, what's current, and also research centered. So sign it for my newsletter for my website to get that if you're interested. And I'm on Instagram because that's just what I can handle right now. And it's my name is Yasmine Underscore yas M E n E Underscore, the tictac and the threads and the Facebook. I'm on LinkedIn's it's my name, but listen, it's Instagram on the website because I just had a ten month old and that's all I can do right now. Let's see, I'm talking about my capacity.

Yeah, there you go. There you go, real life examples of that. Well, thank you so much for all that you shared today. Will be sure to include all of that in the show notes so people can stay connected with you.

I had a great time in this conversation with you. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you.

I'm so glad Doctor Mumby was able to join us for this episode. To learn more about her and her work, visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session three point fifty and don't forget to text two of your girls right now and tell them to check out the episode. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into this topic or just be in community with other sisters, come on over and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Frida Lucas, Elise Ellis, and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take you care

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