The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
As the seasons begin to change we’re taking another good look at the sister- friends that have carried us this far into the year. What better way to celebrate friendship than to showcase how Black women of all ages have fostered supportive, uplifting, and life saving bonds? It’s no secret that over here at TBG, we believe “Sisterhood Heals” and today’s guests are a perfect example of the liberating impact our connections have. Joining me for today’s conversation are community members Ca’ren Hudson & Bettye Holt-Haskins. This godmother-goddaughter duo are representative of an intergenerational friendship with an age gap of 47 years. We chatted about their transition from godmother and daughter to best friends, what friendship looks and feels like when operating as equals, and the multitude of benefits in making friends in every age group.
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Ca’ren Hudson
Bettye Holt-Haskins
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Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session three point thirty one of the Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after a word from our sponsors. The reviews for Sisterhood Heels are rolling in and I simply cannot stop smiling at the hot girl books on Instagram shared finish reading this warm hug of a book last night, and while it made me want to hug my sister friends so bad, Sisterhood Heels is a beautiful guide on how we as black women can use our community and friends to aid in our healing process. Thank you so much for the beautiful review. Have you grabbed your copy yet? Get one for yourself and a friend at Sisterhoodheels dot com. As the seasons begin to change, we're taking another good look at the sister friends that have carried us this far into the year. What better way to celebrate friendship than to showcase how Black women of all ages have fostered supportive, uplifting and life saving bonds secret that over here at Therapy for Black Girls, we believe Sisterhood Heels and today's guests are a perfect example of the liberating impact our connections have. Joining me for today's conversation are community members Karen Hudson and Betty Holt Haskins. This godmother and goddaughter duo are representative of an intergenerational friendship with an age gap of forty seven years. Together, we chatted about their transition from godmother and daughter to best friends, what friendship looks and feels like when operating as equals, and the multitude of benefits in making friends in every age group. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media using the hashtag TVG in Session or join us over in the Sister Circle. To talk more about the episode, you can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Well, thank you so much, so much for joining me today, Carent and Betty. Nice to be here, really excited.
Yeah, so I am too.
So you both are godmother and goddaughter, but also have a beautiful friendship that has transitioned now into beyond godmother and goddaughter, and there is a forty seven year age in between you all, So can you share a little bit about how your relationship has transitioned from just godmother and goddaughter to an actual friendship.
Yeah.
Absolutely, So I'd say it's been in stages, right, So, you know, typical godmother goddaughter. And then when I went off to college, she's always been my spiritual advisor, but I think really kind of strengthening that own personal relationship with it myself. And we finally kind of went on a graduation trip at the end of my undergrad and we realize that we actually travel really well together, and we really care for each other and take care of each other really well, and so it blossomed into this really beautiful space where we can deepen a friendship and have conversation way beyond just the normal how are you doing and what's going on in your life? And so it was really transformative at least in my and it was Yeah, it was.
The same for me.
As she said, We've always been godmother goddaughter. And I think from the beginning our relationship had the aspect of being different because I'm the godparent of several young people, but she's the only person that I was actually instilled in the church, actually went through the ceremony, actually went through the classes. Everyone else was like, oh, we'd be my child's godmother, Like, yeah, I'm sure, but this one we went through the church. She's the only one. So right away the relationship was very special and.
It's just grown.
But I think also we always knew that we would probably be really good friends because even as a child, she was in the club that her and I dubbed the Homies Club. And because I'm older than her mother, I was Homie senior, her mom was Homie She's Homie Junior, and my mom was Homie emeritus. And so we take our girlfriend trips and so we knew each other well. But that graduation trip in Sedona just really sealed the deal.
It let me know that she is an adult, she.
Can handle things, and let her know that I was not that stodgy older woman, that she could.
Be herself around.
And once we knew that we could be free with each other, it allows space for the friendship to grow.
I love that. Was it just the two of you on the graduation trip?
Yes, well, let's just say it was the two of us. By this time, my friend her mother had transitioned, but we felt her presence there the entire time, So physically it was just the two of us, but Homie seemed to be always there.
Thank you for that. So, though the two of you are not blood related, can you say a little bit about how being a part of the same community has really impacted your relationship with one another.
So when you say community, are you talking about physical location or the people in our circle?
The people in your circle?
Well, that's kind of interesting because there really isn't any other people in our circle. I mean, my friend Ata her mom passed when she was a teenager. She was probably the connector of our circle, and once she passed, it's been Karena and I. I think that's probably why we don't have a lot of gossip in our conversation because we don't know the same people.
It's really just us.
We have the extraneous people outside of our togetherness that we talk about on a peripheral type of thing, but we don't really have a community. Now that they think about it, it's really just us.
I agree, we definitely have. We are our own community, like we have our own language, and that's in a physical sense and an undershding sense. We introduce each other to our friends and our family, and also when it comes to that connection, it's really just the two of us. However, I will say that connection is contagious because wherever we go, we end up picking up these people along the way, and even if it's just for that moment or that dinner or that time together, they're a part of our community. They're welcome, we're asking them the same questions, we're having a great time, and there's these small people that we just impact along the way. But yeah, I would agree we are each other's community really.
And where do you both live? Are you in the same geographical location?
No, I actually live and work in Raleigh, North Carolina, but I was born in is in Baltimore, Marylyn.
And I'm in Baltimore and that's where I met her mother in Baltimore. So no, we're miles apart. We haven't actually seen each other for years.
I mean, yeah, thank you.
Pre pandemic.
Oh, definitely pre pandemic spent a long time and it just seems that the universe is conspiring against us. We make plans and then they don't happen. So seeing her face today is quite a thrill.
Are you usually talking on the phone or texting?
Yeah, we'll talk on the phone. Maybe we try to do at least like once a week or so, but definitely like every two weeks, and we'll be on the phone anywhere from two hours depended on.
The day, yes, and dependent upon the events and what's going on in each of our lives and what we've noticed that we want.
To talk about, like.
This particular tree that's a blossoming different differently, or a book that someone has read, or a verse that someone has seen, or something that we've observed, and how does it impact our lives. So we laugh and think to ourselves, we can have our own podcasts because our conversations are so unique and so varied, and we think interesting.
We think so, Betty, is there any part of yourself that you see inkoin No.
I think that's what makes our friendship so unique. We are absolutely different people. We go about our lives in a different way, but we're able to support one another. And I think the fact that we're able to be ourselves with one another, not try to fit into any particular mold. But we are very different. We are very different. I think the only thing maybe I could say that I see we both are adventurous them and our food choices.
Okay, what's the most adventurous meal you all have had or food adventure you've had.
I would have to say our introduction into oysters that, yeah, neither one of us, and correct me if I'm wrong, neither one of us really fried raw oysters were into the idea of it. But we went on a trip to New Orleans and we went to this little cafe and the guy was like, you guys need to eat this. I'm just gonna make this and you're gonna eat it. And we were like, Okay, this is what we're doing on this trip. And after that it's been our bonding thing to the point where we looked into you know how to get the oysters trucker at home if not to do it at home. So that's one of many, but I think that one is maybe my favorite memory of our food choices together.
Yeah, mine too, And I think that memory also points out something else about our experiences, and that is we're not sure if that cafe actually existed. You hear about people living these sort.
Of out of body moments.
We have a feeling that if we went back there, that that cafe and that man would not be there. It just seemed like an out of body experienced the whole thing.
But who knows.
M I mean, it's New Orleans, so really anything, anything can happen.
Anything can happen.
So in the submission tape, Betty, you refer to Karin as your sideline therapist, and I'm curious to hear from you, Karin, how your work as a licensed marriage and family therapist associated impacts your relationship with Betty.
That such a good question. I think it's been really such a great experience because she's been with me through everything from the journey of At one point, I think I wanted to get my PhD and do clinical research and human sexuality. I always knew I wanted to work with like sexuality and spirituality, and she's actually been the foster kind of flaming that desire within myself, even when I wasn't really sure how it was gonna look. She's always been that person to nurture it and flame it. And so when I finally kind of stumbled across you know, oh, maybe I can go this route, get an LMFT, be a sex therapist that nature. She was there all along and throughout school. Any concept that I would learn, like attachment and all these cool concepts, I would have the phone conversations with her, and we found that it was really helpful just in her journey of where she's at and these ideas and concepts in her own healing journey. And so it's helped me in a way that obviously I'm not doing therapy on her, but even just being able to bring these concepts up that I'm like, man, this is so cool, this is how I'm flying it to my life and I didn't even think about it in this way, and being able to introduce that to her is helping her on her journey. And so that's where I think we really fostered a lot of vulnerables between the two of us, because I began to learn her as an adult, not as my godmother, and I began to learn her as this human and this person with her own experiences and her own hard pieces in life and her own trauma, even though she's been with me through mine right and so it really opened my eyes to being able to be a sounding board for her and an encouraging person for her along her journey. So I've been really grateful for it because it's definitely someone I can kind of bounce ideas off of and share, and through our conversations the metaphors and our conversations I end up using with my clients. So it's really helpful to have someone who sees me in the same way that I think I'm starting to see her and getting up opportunity to see her.
She's my sideline therapist.
She talks about being the sex therapist, but I remember when that was the furthest thing from her mind. But as she's grown and to this she has helped me to see things in my life that I can change, improve upon to make the rest of my journey better more productive. I don't take her as my therapist. I would not want that to be. But she opens my eyes to things to think about attachments and.
Ways of growing and ways of looking at things.
I think I'm going to run back to the question you ask about our similarities. One of the things that we talked about in one of our last conversations was food, and she was telling me about her relationship with food. When we got off the phone, I'm thinking, well, I don't have that relationship with food. And then something else comes along and I'm thinking about but I do have this one. And because of our relationship, it helped me to go down the path of why do I have this reallylationship to open those doors, And I think that without our relationship, I've said this to her, I think I would be a greeter at Walmart in my senior years, you know, just be settled with Okay, I don't want to just stay around the house, but I'll just get a job as a greeter at Walmart instead. Because of our conversations, she's helped me to see that there are a lot bigger things out there to do. And she's always saying, as my friends are saying, you're always doing something new, You're always reinventing yourself, and I owe that to our conversations. I know that without them, I would be the same person I was twenty years ago.
I love it more From my conversation after the break, I feel like you're answering my next question, which was, you know what do you really feel like the age difference ads to the relationship And it sounds like what you're saying, Betty, is that Korein really helps you to kind of stay fresh and keep you open to always trying new things.
She does she does.
When I was a young person, my father gave me the advice he said, when you turn forty, start making friends in every generation. You're going to see the value of that. And I do see the value of that. Just in one of our recent conversations, I was telling her about a new venture that I was going to start, but I didn't want to use my phone number and I didn't want to get a second phone.
She said, what about gogal Voice? Like what is Google Voice?
And so she's telling me about it, I'm like, Oh, this is just so great. So now I shared this with my friends and my age group, like Google Voice?
What is that? And I know that if I didn't.
Know Karen, we would all be ignorant to this day of such things as Google Voice.
I mean, that's just an example of it.
She does keep me fresh, and I think that I give her the model of what seniorhood can look like. You know, when I was growing up, the model was rocking chair front porch watching the world go by. That is not the model that I followed. And I'm hoping that she will see that. My motto, my tagline on my emails, on my voicemails, and my trainings that I do is never stop learning. And she has helped me to always continue to learn. I mean, just the other day, she sent me a text, you gotta listen to this YouTube video and I looked at as like an hour long.
My gosh, I don't.
Know, but I did, and I can't wait to listen to it again, you know. I mean, so we just keep each other fresh that way. I'm so thankful for her in my life.
What would you say, Karin, what do you feel like the age difference really adds to the relationship.
Inspiration is the first word that comes to remind I think when I was younger, I remember thinking you were like the coolest person in the world. Like my godmother. She travels and she has all this knowledge, and one of the things that she's really helped me is just to embody myself in my existence and be a little bit more free. And we used to talk about when I was a teenager, you know, her and my mom would just bust out singing in the middle of anywhere, literally anywhere, Like they would just sing or they would talk in their special language anywhere, and they would be so unapologetically themselves. And I think it took me, and it's still taking me.
You know.
It's an onwar journey for me, this ability to be seen and just unapologetically being myself, embodying myself and owning all of that that comes. And so I remember thinking how I wanted to.
Be just like that.
I want to be free. I want to be old when I walk into a room. And it started there, But I would say as I get older as an adult, it is inspiring because her tagline of never stopped learning is essentially something I use and kind of live my life by constantly this constant death and transformation, this death and rebirth process, never being afraid to not own versions of myself that no longer apply to me, and so as we're talking, I realized how important that is for me, and that was instilled at a young age, I think from you, and and yeah, you just bring this inspiration, this wisdom. I've always been someone who has craved wisdom like this knowledge and just understanding and someone who's not willing to play the devil's advocate, which I think a lot of us there that's enjoyed to do. And so having someone in your life that you can go there with and be this vulnerable self and someone who sees you and appreciates you like I think our love story is one that makes me realize really what it feels like to be seen in friendship and what it feels like to have that pure like you've seen me at my worst, and in our case, you've seen me from the beginning, you know. And so yeah, this inspiration and this level of vulnerability that I'm learning is necessary and that I now take from our friendship and Foster and my other friendships as well.
You know, I find myself really struck by the way that you all have transitioned into this friendship that feels very like you operate as equals when it feels like it would have been so easy for you to fall into this like mother daughter kind of pattern. Can you say a little bit about how you all have resisted that.
No, it's interesting because I think we almost got there. We were operating there for a little bit, I would say, maybe from like twenty sixteen, and then I moved down to North Carolina in twenty nineteen. And when I first moved down here, we talked a lot about I don't know if you remember, we talked a lot about you coming down here, like taking care of me, right, almost like that grandmotherly role, like all in my scalp. And she came into my first apartment and cooked for me and stayed with me and snuck some crafts down playing for me. And then I think there was a shift I would probably say maybe in twenty nineteen. I don't know it was pre pandemic, but it just was this natural shift that occurred where I think I really got deeper into my spiritual journey and it was something that we connected on just a different level. And from there we began really building a friendship. I think it's when we really identified ourselves as friends. I think before we were like, oh, we just love our godmother goddaughter relationship. We take care of each other, we see each other. But I think it wasn't until we actually named it, like, you know, you're my best friends, You're someone that I can go to, and we really ran with it. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's really kind of where we pivoted fully towards friendship.
I think you're right.
I know that when we went on one of our homie trips, that's what we call our homie trips. When we went to Sedona, a couple of things came out that showed me that.
I could trust her.
I contracted altitude sickness. She was so calm in the midst of all of that, and she just handled things. And then I showed her a side of me that she didn't know existed. And I think it started then that we began to realize that we are individuals. We are not necessarily in this role of god mother godparents. Then we often think about god daughter godmother relationships being holiday related. You know, I give you your Birthday gift, give you a Christmas gift, Maybe you'll give me a Mother's Day gift, and that sort of thing. When we realized that we couldn't afford to give gifts.
It's like, well, that's kind of gone out the window.
And then we realized that it was a bigger gift, you know, the friendship was a much bigger gift than any material thing that we could give. I don't know that there was a particular point when we could say we're now friends and not god mother goddaughter. We talk about this often. We don't know what had happened. It just sort of evolved, but I think it began when I realized I could trust her to handle things, and therefore I didn't always have to be the adult. And I remember telling her when she was younger, we were both younger. I would pick her up and she would say, I want to drive. I want to drive, and I would say to her, don't worry. One day you're going to be the person picking me up. You're going to be the person taking care of the trips and the planning. And the day did arrive. And because I think that was in our expectation that I would not always be the leader, that there would come a time when she would have her chance to lead, and we made that.
Prophecy come true.
And so we take turns now, and I think we learned a lot from her mother my best friend that in order to have a friendship, there are times when you need to know that you can let your friend handle everything. That today you don't have to think about anything. You don't have to think about what you're having for breakfast, you don't have to think about how you're getting here, you don't have to make any decisions whatsoever today. And when I realized that she was a person that I could trust my life with, I think that's the point of time when we could transition from me being the responsible adult to us both being responsible adults and friends.
More from my conversation after the break so, do you feel like there are any rules or guidelines that really helps add to the longevity of your friendship.
My favorite thing is that we do not put pressure on each other. And I think this is a tenet that I've actually taken to my own friendships because I can be very finicky. I'm a Gemini with a scorpio rising, so I really may not text back, I may not call back. You might not hear from me weeks at a time. In having someone where sometimes she's on that same exact time It has been the most stressful even thing because I actually took the quiz and I'm the leader of the friendship group, and a lot of times I feel very responsible for let me make sure everyone's checking in, how's everyone doing, Okay, this person's birthday, it's that person's birthday. Let me make sure okay, this person's brother sick. Let me check in on them. So I'm always doing that, but this tip is different because I feel like I don't always have to do that, and we take turns doing that for each other. So there will be weeks that go by where we might not talk and I'll just kind of send her I love you gbu R, which is our sign off, and she'll be on the same time. She'll be like, it's been a crazy couple weeks for me too, I've been actually thinking about you love you too. We'll talk when we talk, and that freedom, I think has really been one of my favorite parts of our friendship for sure. And it's just the ability to let each other be and trusting that when it's time, we'll talk and even when it's frustrating, we'll be frustrated about it, but we know, oh okay, as soon as we get on the phone. This is why it took so long. We needed to go through experiences like I feel like more recently in the past couple of years for me, we used to talk I think a lot more often. And then as I've been just kind of finishing up for rad school and clinical internship, things got really crazy and even in my personal life there were things I had to learn that she would usually be the person I would run to right for more spiritual guidance, but I ended up learning those lessons on my own, and then we talked about them more on the friendship level, and so I think that's been my favorite part, is just this complete and total acceptance of each other and meeting each other where we're at.
I have to agree with that as well.
The ability to be who you are, the ability to do that on apologetically, the ability to be a part yet be together, to be together yet be alone.
It's really good. Those things I think make for the longevity.
The ability to be who you are, and the knowledge that I may not be the same person tomorrow that I am today, and that's going to be okay. And she said she in the test that she turned out to be the leader I turned out to be the peacemaker, and so I think that those two go well together, the leader and the peacemaker. And I know that when we're done with this podcast, it doesn't happen today that in our next conversation, this is going to be our conversation and what we learned from the quiz and how it really helps our friendship along. But I think the peacemaker and the Leader we harmonize, and thinking about that, I think is the reason that wherever we meet new people who just fall in love with us, we may never see them again, but we meet these new people that fall in love of us want to give us things. There's really something very special going on between us.
M So, was there anything surprising for you about the quiz or your results from the quiz? For either me?
No?
I mean, you know what, I'm so old that I've taken those quizzes so many times. I remember taking one when Cosmopolitan first came out. You guys really thought it was out forever. No, I remember when it first came out and we were taking the quizzes then. So I really wasn't surprised. But I am surprised. That's surprise. Maybe, isn't the word, but I'll use it anyway. That she came out as leader, like.
I don't know what the other choices were.
I would have thought she might have come out as peacemaker as well.
Was anything surprising for you, Karin, No.
I think I was either going to get leader or peacemaker if there was a possibility to be somewhere in the middle. I think that's the that I hang out on because I tend to be the person planning things in my friend group, so I think that's where the leader piece came from. But I'm very aware of my energetic aura and I'm very aware of what I do to a room, so I try to check in with people constantly, and I think that's where I hang out in the more peace maker place of you know, is everyone okay, this is where so and so's coming from, this is where the other person's coming from. I've literally been a mediator, you know, and nothing surprised me about what I got. I will fall somewhere between leader and peacemaker. And I used to be the firecracker, I would say, but not.
I want to add that I can see that in ten years or more, you will be the firecracker. A game you're going to be a senior citizen Firecracker.
But yeah, I can see that a lot. I think as I'm growing into min I'm currently going through my sadder returns, so definitely trying to navigate through life's journey and purpose and kind of this next chapter into my adulthood coming into thirty and so I definitely can see myself moving out of leader and more into I don't give a damn. This is what I am, this is where I'm at. I'm intentional with my friendships, and also y'all, I'm tired. I can't be trying to figure this out for all of us, like y'all let you know when y'all get back on the same page.
I love you both.
Let me know if you need an individual, I'm here for you. But I can't be doing all that. So I think I'll evolve, And again that comes with our friendship, like we accept each other no matter what role we're in in our stage of life, whether I'm the leader, she's peacemaker. She might be the leader and I'm firecracker. I think we really kind of hakele on all of those concepts and alternate and shift.
So, Betty, what would you say, makes Karen a great friend.
So many things.
Okay, so she's a listener, not only a carrying listener that you can share things with, but she's a listener who pays attention and tries it. She takes my experiences and run with them.
And I like that.
I think so many times people will hear, especially as senior, or hear your experiences and think that happened to you, not to me. But she's someone who really pays attention to that. And I think one of the questions in the quiz was do you feel as if you're being listened to? And I think that she listens to me. I think the other thing is that she's adventuresome like I am, and she's the person that we can dream and maybe one day we'll actually do these things, but to travel to exotic places or try exotic foods, or be silly on the street corner one day, you know, and put some of those plans into effects.
And then probably one of the most important things is this ladder that we form.
I mentioned to her the Bible story of Jacob's Ladder, and in that story, Jacob sees this ladder, but it doesn't have a formation on the ground that speed are not on the ground. And the thing that's really interesting about our ladder is that when you see a ladder, you see each person going up the ladder. But there are times when she stands on my shoulder we watch each other grow. I will go through something, she can use that to grow. She stands on my shoulder and she gets taller. She stays there, but somehow then I can stammer her shoulder and I get taller. We're never connected to the ground anymore. We just keep going up to the same ladder. And that is something that is unique in our relationship. I don't have it with anybody else. And I have friends that I had been friends with for sixty years and I don't have that with them.
Yeah, this is unique.
And what would you say, Karin, what makes Betty a great friend?
I would definitely say I guess the first piece would be her fire for energy, her boldness in getting to kind of soak that up like a sponge and then playing around and seeing what that feels like for me. She's so inspirational, like I just like she is so cool, and the way that she is never afraid to try something new, and the way that She's never afraid to shift directions or start fresh. I honor that and I love that so much, and it gives me the courage to know that, Okay, I could beat seventy ten or starting a whole new career and that's fine. What is someone going to say about it?
Nothing?
And I appreciate that. I would also say her love of laughter and silliness, because I I think I just love being silly, and having someone where you can really do that is amazing. I would say her adventure some personality as well, you know, never being afraid to try something new and learn something new. I think one of our favorite things is that we will talk about anything. And I love random facts, so having someone else that also enjoys random facts and has all of this knowledge. I think the other piece of it that I really like is that we can be silent together. I think that is a very underrated form of like vulnerability and comfort with another person is existing without having to interact. And I can really only do that generally with my partner and with her. We haven't found a whole bunch of people where that occupies our friendship as well. Maybe in spurts and some of my other friendships, but I think this one is different because we just exist together and it's almost like, even in that resting time, we're still learning something. We're both very observational of the other person and so being able to have someone say, hey, I'm curious about this, where you might not even be thinking about it, and then it becomes a whole you know, well, oh wow, a revelation. Right. Having someone that knows you in that way, it fosters growth, you know, in its truest sense, It's like allows you to grow because you have someone who wants nothing but to encourage you to grow. And I think those are all my favorite things. You're the total package as a friend, you know, I love it.
Thank you so much for sharing so openly about your story with one another. So let us know where can we find you online? I know people will be curious and have more questions. So where can we find you online? Do you have any websites or social media handles you'd like to share?
Well, you can find me on my Instagram. It is new informing. I'm in the process of kind of building and branding, So you can find me at Flowering, Underscore Heart, Underscore Wellness on Instagram and I think on Facebook, but don't be prise. Not a lot on there, y'all. It's like my personal brain dump, right, So I'm building, But yeah, come through for yoga, reiki, human design, therapy, chaps, all that good stuff.
On Instagram, it's aunt, babe.
Is that what I am? Your on baby story is what you are Instagram?
But I've never used Instagram.
I'm a Facebook person. Betty Haskins, You'll find me there. I'm in the process of developing a new web page, so at some point maybe it'll be there.
We will be ensured to in clude what you do have in the show notes. Thank you again both for joining me today. I'm so glad Karent and Betty were able to join us for this episode. Don't forget to grab your copy of the book Sisterhood Heels at sisterhood Heels dot com, and remember to take the Sister Friend Quiz for yourself to find out if you're the leader, wallflower, peacemaker, or firecracker in your friend group. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory, and if you want to continue digging into this topic, or just be in community with other sisters. Come on over and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for Black women. You can join us at Community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Frida Lucas, Elise Ellis, and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care. What's The reviews for Sisterhood Heels are rolling in and I simply cannot stop smiling at the hot girl books on Instagram shared finish reading this warm hug of a book last night and while it made me want to hug my sister friend so bad, Sisterhood Heels is a beautiful guide on how we as black women can use our community and friends to aid in our healing process. Thank you so much for the beautiful review. Have you grabbed your copy yet? Get one for yourself and a friend at sisterhood Heels dot com.