Session 294: Understanding Anti-Fat Bias

Published Feb 15, 2023, 8:00 AM

The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.

In the recent news cycle, there have been a handful of videos trending that participate in Anti-Fat rhetoric. These pieces of media work to diminish the fat acceptance movement utilizing scare tactics like shame and ridicule under the guise of “tough love.” In actuality, these methods of behavior are rooted in fatphobia and highlight how much body shaming has been indoctrinated into all of us. 

To discuss Anti-Fat bias more at length, this week I’m joined by Author, Advocate, and Yoga Teacher Jessamyn Stanley. As a Fat Black Femme navigating the predominantly white, able-bodied, cisgender world of Yoga, Jessamyn has spent her career breaking down barriers in the wellness industry and showing that all bodies are worthy. In our conversation, we discuss the importance of reclaiming the word Fat, the yoga industrial complex, the power of listening to the teacher that lives inside us all, and how practicing self-care and self-acceptance is an act of service to the community around you. 

Resources

Visit our Amazon Store for all the books mentioned on the podcast.

Sisterhood Heals is now available for pre-order!

Curvy Yoga

Two Whole Cakes

Jes Baker

Virgie Tovar

 

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Our Production Team

Executive Producers: Dennison Bradford & Maya Cole Howard

Producers: Fredia Lucas, Ellice Ellis & Cindy Okereke

 

Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session tun ninety four of the Therapy for That Girl's Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after a word from our sponsors. In recent news cycles, there have been a handful of videos trending that participate in anti fat rhetoric. These pieces of media work to diminish the fat acceptance movement, utilizing scare tactics like shame and ridicule under the guise of tough love in actuality. These methods of behavior are rooted in fat phobia and highlight how much body shaming has been indoctrinated into all of us to discuss anti fat bias more at length. Today, I'm joined by author, advocate, and yoga teacher Jessamine Stanley. As a fat black film navigating the predominantly white, able bodied, since gendered world of yoga. Jessaman has been her career breaking down barriers in the wellness industry and showing that all bodies are worthy. A two time author of Everybody to Yoga and Yoke My Yoga of Self Acceptance, Gentleman is a living testimony of what happens when you make space for yourself and others to be seen, heard, and understood. In our conversation, we discuss the importance of reclaiming the word fat, the yoga industrial complex, the power of listening to the teacher that lives inside all of us, and how practicing self care and self acceptance is an act of service to the community around you. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media using the hashtag TBG in session or join us over in the sister circles To talk more in depth about the episode. You can join us at community dot therapy for Black Girls dot Com. Here's our conversation. Well, I am very excited justentmine. So thank you for joining us today, Thank you for having me. I'm really honored to be here with you. Dr George, truly, thank you, thank you so much. So I want to start my hearing from you that there's been so much conversation around the word fat, and a lot of your work is really about reclaiming the word fat. So can you tell us about that. I think that so much of what keeps us feeling marginalized and feeling small but then ourselves comes from not owning the language that is used to hurt us. And I think, especially when it comes for me, for the word fat, it feels really important because as a fat person, to own that word fat means to let go of the ways that society has defined the word fat, which don't actually have anything to do with what it means to be fat. A lot of the like silent definition of that word, it's ideas like stupid or ugly or bad had fundamentally not good, I think, is the way that we are taught to believe that fat should be considered. And I definitely have bought into this so much in my life and have felt like that is the worst thing that I could be called to be called fat? And I see it all the time, children, adults. So many people afraid to use that word and to own it. But when you own it and you say, yes, I'm fat, what does fat actually mean? Fat means large? Okay, I'm large. That doesn't mean that I'm not worth while. It doesn't mean that I don't deserve to exist. So if i'm if it's okay to be fat, Let's suppose that it's okay to be fat, then what can I do? Now? Where can my life take me? What can I own in my own being? How am I allowed to see myself when I accept all of who I am? And So I think that reclamation of the word fat and not curvy, not big body, not plus size, really owning fact. You're not just decolonizing yourself, but you're making space for society to change as well, for us to look at each other differently, yes, but also for fat phobic standards and practices to be reevaluated, and for us to live together in more harmony. And ultimately, I think that it's for healing on a collective scale. M I completely agree with you. You know, just when when I think about like the people in this space doing this work, like you come to the top of mind. I feel like you are one of the pioneers in this space, and I wonder if you'd be comfortable with sharing, you know, just kind of like how you even got into this work, and like what kinds of things have helped you to really kind of reclaim that that word for yourself and for the community. You know. One of the things that has helped me is knowing that I am not I feel like I am one of the young bloods on this trail. I feel like I am living in a legacy of so many people, and that acceptance is something that has been championed for a long time in many different ways, and I think that we're coming to a place where where we can start to see the long reaching effects and impact. Because when I first started sharing my yoga practice on social media, this was getting on ten years ago. Now. I started doing that because I really did not see a lot of people who looked like me practicing yoga in general, not just online. And in the time since then, I have seen such tremendous change, not just in the number of people who are living their best lives, it's not even about yoga, really, it's people just being inspired to do their thing and be happy, but also just a general conversation about it. It has become a much more mainstream topic, and I think that if you look at advertising and compare it to ten years ago, it is significantly more diverse and accessible overall. And I think that can be tied to fat acceptance into specifically to the waves of activism on the internet. But I do think that there is a lot of whitewashing is the first phrase that comes to mind for me. But I think there's still plenty of work for us to do, and I think that it always starts on the individual level. And I think that what I'm noticing more now is people wanting to jump on the bandwagon. And that's great, awesome, But when you jump on the bandwagon, know that that ride starts within your heart and really accepting the fat phobia that lives within you. Mm hmmm. So just when I wonder if you can talk a little bit about, you know, some of the ways we may be kind of practicing or thinking in fat phobic ways that we may not even be aware of. Goodness, thank you so much for asking. I think that is something that it's hard to notice, right Like, I feel like it's really hard to see the ways that we are harmful to ourselves, the things that we say to ourselves. And I think that what was really helpful for me was starting a practice in which I had to look at myself. And that is something that you know, frankly, was really challenging for me. There are whole years of my life where I don't have any pictures of myself, like barely any because I thought that I didn't deserve to be photographed. And it doesn't mean sharing the photos with anybody, it doesn't mean you don't mean anything, but just looking at yourself. And I do think it's different than looking in the mirror. I think that when you take an image of yourself and you look at it, and the first thing that happens for me is that I start talking cash it about myself. I'm like, look at my chins, look in my arms, all my belly, all these things that are running in a tape in my head every time that I look at my reflection, but I can't see it until I pause. And so you take that moment to pause, and then you say, is that really how I few Do I really feel like there's something wrong with my chins? Is there really something wrong with my belly? So that's always been the first step for me recently everything in that it's really cool to also in that place right down those ideas and to really like engage with them and see it written down and see like in my own penmanship, is that true to me? Does that really matter to me? Because I think that sometimes we're like not having that actual conversation with ourselves about like how it feels. And I want to give a more specific example because this is something that happens to me literally every day. But I noticed it pretty early on in my yoga practice especially. I would like exercise really hard, and then I would want to go eat, and I just want to eat like everything, and so I I would like go the whole food top aer and like pup my food on my plate, and I'd just be like thinking, judging myself, judging the things that I was going to eat. And it wasn't until I literally stopped and said, Wow, is that something that I really think or is that something that I think I should think? Am I thinking about the person who's standing across from me? Wondering if they're looking at my food and wondering if what I should be eating. Maybe I've inspired them to get macaroni and cheese. Why do I even know? Why? Am I projecting my ideas? But it takes that stopping and just actually asking the question. So I do think that having a practice where like you literally have to look at yourself is really helpful, but just as a general practice that can be used in other parts of your life too. I think more common is when you're sharing space with loved ones or with friends partners. It's always with family members and friends that it's the hardest to like really look at the ways that we're shaming ourselves. Let's say you get dressed in an outfit and you're like, I love this outfit. I'm feeling so good, and then you go around your friends or your family, and then all of a sudden, you don't love your outfit anymore, and now you're not good enough and why do I even think that I should wear this? And before you go down the spiral to just say wow, is this really how I feel? Or is this how I think that someone else is feeling? So that as the first step I think is crucial. But then I think what happens as a byproduct of that is looking critically at the people who are around you and what what do they make you feel? I think that we don't always notice the impact that our loved ones really have on us, and that if you are spending time with people who they themselves are fat phobic or hate themselves, really fundamentally, that's what they're offering to you as well, and maybe offering it with sincerity and love and deep authenticity, but that energy is palpable, and it's just important to to note the fielding, not even saying that like you shouldn't spend time with your mother, your siblings, or your lovers, your domestic partners, your spouse, your friends, just acknowledging that you are separate from them and that how you feel is most important. That feels like the way to me to really start to notice the body shaming loop that lives inside of all of us. And I think there's a thing where it's like it's only for some people, are like this is a fat people issue. No, this is everybody m you know. Recently, you know, it feels like there have been at least a handful of videos that talk about the whole fat acceptance moving right and people kind of being comfortable with their bodies with wherever they are, and talking about how that promotes not great health or or releading people down the wrong path. And so what do you feel like people are missing in this argument? I think that what people are missing is that if you start from a place of self love and self acceptance, you are able to go much further than if you start from a place of shame and hatred. And a lot of rhetoric around health is about shaming and trying to shame people into changing their bodies and caring about their health. But scare tactics here, and it's just not effective for long term change. It doesn't make people healthier, it doesn't make big change. And I do think that we as a society need to have a deeper conversation around health and I don't believe that shame and hatred is the way to get there. Yeah, I completely agree with you. I think you know a lot of people who jump on this tough love bandwagon, but it's not super effective. Like you mentioned, it doesn't need to long lasting changes. Yeah, it's I mean, I do think that there is there's so much that we need to discuss about access to information, about access to healthy food, about trauma, about longstanding systemic problems in our society. But I think that the short argument of fat is bad, You're bad if you're fat, it just doesn't make change. More from my conversation with Desmine after the break, you know, just on something that I think about a lot, and you kind of brought it to mind when you said, you know, we don't want to talk about curvy and body positive and all of that stuff. And I often wonder do you think that in the black community we have struggled with fat acceptance in the same ways, because I'm thinking about just you know, the women in our families like typically are larger right until to me, it doesn't feel like historically there was a concern around fat acceptance, although it feels like there is now. I'm wondering if you can help me tease out my thoughts here. Oh goodness, I am so grateful to be on therapy for black girls so that we can really talk about this because so I grew up in the South. My mother's fat, my aunts are fat, my grandmother was fat. Everybody it's just a part of our lives. I don't remember anybody using the word fat, but I definitely know that I understood them to be beautiful. They, though I know now, did not see themselves as beautiful in the way that I just assumed that they were, you know. And I think that what really what has happened is that we are all so susceptible to patriarchal, white supremacist beauty standards, and that those have seeped in. And I think that especially in the age of social media, wherein those standards I think are often heralded even more than they ever have been. I think that's why it's a topic of conversation now in the black community. I mean, to your point, like, what it means to be a strong, powerful Black person has never not meant being large. It has always that's always by a piece of the puzzle. So I think it's the impact of white supremacy. And I also think that the body acceptance movement and fat acceptance have really been on the backs of black women truly, and black creators especially. And also I would say black sex workers specifically, thank you for then helping me tease that out a little bit. So you know, I do want to spend some time talking about these incredible books that you have written. So your first book was Everybody Yoga, So I'd love you to tell us a little bit about that for people who maybe haven't checked it out, and to talk about, you know, how your own yoga practice then led to you giving us this offering of the book. I wrote Everybody Yoga because I had so many people reaching out to me asking how do I start practicing yoga? What match should I get? Where should I go? I was like, why are you asking me? There's literally so many resources about yoga, and like I was like, you should just type in how do I start practicing yoga? And then I realized that if you do that, there is so much conflicting information. It's confusing. Should people who are not South Asian even be practicing yoga? What are the lines here? And so I wrote Everybody Yoga so that anyone who has that question of like how do I start practicing yoga can just open up that book literally get it anywhere the books are sold. You can go from the first page to practicing down and facing dog by the end like it will. It lays out the practice in such a way where it's accessible to anyone who needs yoga in their life. Something I think that gets in the way of starting a yoga practice is feeling like I don't have the right tools, or I'm not flexible enough, or how do I make space and time for this in my life? And I really found my yoga practice through trauma. My yoga practice really intensified after my aunt passed away. And I think that a lot of times people think that you have to if you're really into yoga, maybe you're like really flexible, like a gymnast or something, and you like have all of this excess energy. And I find that if you're really into yoga, something that happened where you're like trying to work it out and figure out what happened. So I think that the for me, the biggest thing to really intensify it was leaning into my pain and letting that lead the way. And I started practicing yoga at home because I could not afford to practice yoga in studios. And that's something that I think. There are a lot of barriers to entrgue for yoga practice, often or perceived barriers to intrigue, but really what everybody yoga offers is the idea that you don't need to go out to a studio. You can definitely practice online classes, you can do it every want. But if you solidify a home practice and start to listen to the teacher that lives inside of you, then you can carry that practice through every part of your life, through every moment, every of every down, and it will allow you to come home to the fact that life is changed, that there's always change, and that it's okay for that change to data. And So your newest book, Yoke is my yoga of self acceptance. So I would love for you the first start by talking with us about the title. Why that title? What is Yoke? So I realized way after the book came out that Yoka sounds like woke yoga, like running those ideas together, and like I had never even considered that. It's like I started writing Yoke really while I was writing Everybody Yoga, because I realized that in Everybody Yoga, I really wasn't talking about all of what yoga is. I was talking about like how to get into yoga postures, but really the meat and potatoes of the yoga practice happens within yourself after you are practicing whatever postures are going to practice, and for me, that has meant engaging with the hard edges of my identity. I think of it as the yoga of everyday life, but the yoga that lives at the intersection of our identities, the cross sections and yoke, it's like my I've thought of it is like my ratchet. Millennial American translation of the word yoga, yoga literally means to to yoke. It means to draw together, to bring together union. And so I always think of yoga, especially the yoga of everyday life, is being yoking. That you're just bringing together things that do not make sense. And it's like, how are these things supposed to go together? How does capitalism and teaching yoga go together? That don't seem like that matches, but it needs to. So we need to yok What does it mean to sledg shame yourself? That is a hard edge, that is a cross section? What does that mean? What does it mean to practice yoga? As an American? This is let's bring these things together. So yoga is all about bringing together the parts of yourself that cause conflict, that caused grief, that make it hard to accept yourself. But ultimately we yoke to find acceptance, to find the union, to find harmony, and so truly the purpose of the book is to bring you to a place of self acceptance where it's okay to be messy and it's okay to have made a mistake. So you touched on this a little bit just now, but I would love to hear because in the book you talk a lot about the American yoga complex. So can you break that down for us a little bit more? Oh my goodness, the yoga industrial complex. I just think of it as this machine that is really about capitalism. It is about commerce, and that's a lot of what America is. It's built on white supremacy and that shows up in the American yoga experience so much and in the yoga industrial complex. And then that has become the standard by which we judge a yoga practice is what does it look like? What clothes are you wearing, what retreat did you go on, what studio do you practice at? And that really has nothing to do with the yoking, the bringing together of the hard parts, the acceptance of identity. And there's so much to be learned when we take a step back from the yoga industrial complex and just lean into the practice. Mainly that we have an opportunity. Again, I'm always thinking about, like, how can we be using our individual experiences towards the greater good? That the practice of self care and self acceptance is really an active service to others, And so much of what our collective yoga practice offers the world is healing. Self acceptance on a global scale is an opportunity for us to all transform. It's an opportunity for us to move as a society from an obsession with fear. Right now, we're in a moment of deep fear and panic, everyone worried constantly, and for us to start to move into a place where compassion and love are our motivators. That requires this individual practice of acceptance. And so the yoking and the yoga industrial complex, I think all roads lead to the same place. And so while I am very critical of the yoga industrial complex, very critical of the American yoga practice, I think that ultimately it does lead us forward, and does lead us even in the four bowls, even in the hypocrisy, often, even in the xenophobia, often that there is an opportunity for us to hear each other better and to be more present in this moment. But yeah, it's I think it's something also that people are afraid to talk about because of fear of being wrong or getting the wrong answer, have being part of the problem. But I think that there's no way to be a part of the solution without accepting where you are. Isn't that such a weird irony, Like people are so afraid to talk about it because they don't want to be a part of the problem, But then not talking about it is actually the problems exactly right, literally, and it's in so many things more. From my conversation with Desmine after the break, he said, you've also been really vocal about talking about your experiences as a fat firm in the yoga community. Can you say a little bit more about, you know, what that has been like and how you've kind of taken care of yourself and managed to kind of keep going with everything that has happened. You know what my experience as a fat film in the predominantly white, able bodied sister under yoga world, what it has taught me is that so many of us are operating from a place of fear, and that to see someone embody and live in a way that is counter to what society has told us. Society has always said that being fat certainly is just bad and you should not be doing that in general, but especially fat in athletic environment. Yoga is often categorized as I think of it as spirituality ultimately, but it's very often labeled as fitness, and so within the fitness industry, there's a lot of hardline fat phobia. And when you add black to fat, that means that there is like zero point zero respect. There is the semblance of respect. It is tokenism, it's fetichization, and that is something that I have experienced extensively, and it's one of the things that has come along with standing on this platform is that I have had incredible opportunities to be a part of campaigns with so many brands that have global reach, so that my physical form has been on the side of buildings and billboards in countries literally all over the world. And that has really made me think a lot about what it means to be fetishized and to be tokenized, to live as a token, and what visibility means, and what accessibility means, and the opportunity for change that comes through that, and the opportunity for other people to see themselves and to feel recognized and important. And that is really my biggest takeaway that what's most important is the collective and that if there's an opportunity for even one other person to feel less alone, than that is an opportunity worth taking. But I would say that in general, especially working with my community, the Underbelly, it is a yoga community where you can practice yoga with me all over the world at any time of day online. Being in that space as an entrepreneur and as a fat black film in an industry where white centric beauty standards are the norm, it really feels like a call to action. I think about Danny lu Hammer, I think about Rosa Parks, I think about my grandma. I think about the legacy. I think about the importance of us standing up and being ourselves and doing it, scared, doing it while not waiting for solid ground to move forward, and knowing that there's a brighter day ahead. Thank you for sharing it. So's something else that you shared, and I was very excited to see that she shared on your Instagram that you had used our therapist directory to connect with the therapist. So can you say a little bit about how therapy has helped you both with self acceptance but also as a part of your work, Like you're talking about being visible and like all of this groundbreaking work that you're doing that of course needs some support. So how has therapy been useful to you in that way? I have to tell you that this literally is why I was so excited to come on the show, because Therapy for Black Girls has been so influential in my life. Even prior to using the service myself, I know that it was a huge part of how my best friend was able to find her therapist and her therapy practice is why my therapy practice began. So just starting from that place, I'm so grateful. What ended up happening is that I've been to therapy a couple of times in the past, not enjoyed it for a variety of reasons. But I came to a place in my life last year where I was really struggling to bring together the different pieces of my life. It was right after Yoke came out and I was going into a huge transition in my life where I was scaling my businesses literally have this book out, and then at the exact same time, my partner I had been living with. I have two partners on polyamorous and this is something that if you're interested in polymory. I have a podcast called Dear Jessamine where we talk about polyamory and what it means to be in polyamorous relationship. But at that time, I was living in a house with two of my partners, one of whom I had been living with for almost ten years, and we were deciding to separate, not to separate in partnership, but to stop living together physically. And then on top of that, me and my creative partner, we're moving into an RV to start living on the road, and all of those things coinciding at the same week of the book launch. My friend was like, you know therapy, have you heard of it? I think you should try it. So I started seeing a therapist and she was so, I mean, I do not know this past year how I would have made it to this place had it not been for that practice of just really required self reflection, like just that's just what we're gonna do today. It's for an hour and we're just gonna reflect. That as a practice was very new to me because I had not really valued I think the connection just with another human being, of them receiving my truth and reflecting it back to me. And I came to a place with my therapist wherein so so my partner and I were full time rving and we finally landed in northern California. And when we got to Northern California and it became clear that I was going to stay here for a while, my therapist, who was based in my home state of North Carolina, she suggested that I find a therapist in the area closer to me. She recommended therapy for black girls. Though I would say that it was gonna be it's like my only I feel like y'all are if you're black and FM it's I got it. That's this is wheren't going I don't, but I love being able to filter, especially like as a queer person, I'm very kinky as a polyamorous person and polyamorous with longstanding relationships. It was really important to me to find a therapist who was comfortable with that. And what I found was that all the different pieces of me could also be pulled into that as well. That I could find a therapist who speaks in astrology the way that I speak in astrology, and who who respects to row and ancient practices, and also who as a creator can help me through expressive arts therapy really find the modalities to communicate my truth so that I can do that self reflection. And I think that as an entrepreneur who wears so many different hats, that being able to just take a half off and look at it all the way around that has been really really helpful. What it has brought to my life truly is beyond what I think words could easily express. I love that. I'm so happy that you were able to connect with that person, because that is what we would love to hear, right people having these kinds of transformative experiences because of therapist. I appreciate you shearing that. I appreciate you. I am so grateful. Thank you. So Who are some of the other fat voices and leaders that have helped you to kind of paint the world that you want to see? Man, there are so many people out here doing this work right now, and I am so grateful to be in community with all of them. But I always feel like when I think about the people who had it not been for them, I would not have even been on this road, especially as a yoga teacher and as a black woman. I think about Diane Bondy and the work that she has done as a yoga teacher that has been even before I started practicing yoga. I remember seeing pictures of her and just feeling so empowered and so grateful, because really, it's not even about speaking, it's not about rhetoric, it's not about trying to tell anybody else what to do. It's literally just being visible in your own body and doing your thing unapologetically. And she was so inspirational for me. Also an I guess Jelly, who is the founder of Curvy Yoga. I would not be doing any of this without her. But when I first started exploring that acceptance and that positivity, I was drawn to the work of Marianne Kirby and Leslie Kencel and they used to do this podcast back in the day called two Whole Cakes and they have a book called Two Whole Cakes. Also Us Baker, the Militant Baker. She has written extensively about fat acceptance and Virgil Tovar as well. There are so many people who have like just written books that are their own experience. It's not really about trying to create a system for anyone else to follow. I think it's the power and the impact for me has been through the personal lives of people who have decided to stop feeling disempowered by the world around them and who have recognized the power that lives within them. And I don't know where I would be or who I would be without them. It sounds like some great people to look up, so it will definitely be SHURELD include links to their resources in the our show notes. So as we prepare to close, Jasmine, I would love it if you could share some morning mantras that you can share with our community that can really help them to kind of practice in the morning to take good care of themselves. Well. The first intra that I think of is from a song by Cia called The Church of What's Happening Now, and in it she says, throw away yesterday. Today is a brand new day. And I think of that every day that you just restart, it's not a big deal. And even in the middle of the day, in that moment where it's like I cannot go forward in that moment, saying throw away yesterday, throw away that past moment. Just today is the day and I often find myself saying I am enough, I am enough, saying it as slowly as possible, ramping it up to say it faster, just over and over again throughout the day, especially in those moments where there's a question of is this enough? Am I doing enough? To remember? Always enough, whatever it is that I'm bringing to the table, it is enough. I am enough. Beautiful, Those feels like great ones to put on our sticky notes in our bathroom windows or the mirrors to remind ourselves. So, Jesmine, where can we stay connected with you and all the incredible things that you are doing. What is your website as well as any social media handles you'd like to share. You can find me on social media at my name is Jessamin and you can find me on Twitter at Jessamin's stand. But you can find my books, you can find my podcasts, you can find the Underbelly which is also at the underbelly dot com and at the Underbelly Yoga that you can find all the resources about me at Jessamine Stanley dot com. Act Well, thank you so much for sharing with us today, Jessin, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me, Dr Joy. I'm so glad Jessamine was able to join us today to learn more about her and the incredible work that she's doing. Be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session to and don't forget to text two of your girls right now and tell them to check out the episode. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into this topic or just be in community with other sisters, come on over and join us in The Sister Circle is our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy for Black Girls dot com. This episode was produced by Freda Lucas and Elise Ellis and editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank you' all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take it care

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The Therapy for Black Girls podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a license 
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