The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
Over the past few years, you’ve probably found yourself online viewing and reacting to bite size pieces of mental health information. At times in an attempt to better understand ourselves and the world we live in, we digest and share pieces of information that we don’t fully understand or properly reflect our experiences. Take for example the terms trauma bonding, gaslighting, and narcissism. All terms that you’ve probably heard before, and maybe even used in your everyday life. But, are you using them correctly?
Joining me today for another one of our Group Chat conversations are my friends and colleagues Dr. Ayana Abrams and Dr. Joy Beckwith, both psychologists in Atlanta. During our conversation we break down the definition of key terms we’ve noticed people using online and share suggestions on how to be more mindful around information online.
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Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session to seventy one of the Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after a word from our sponsors. Over the past few years, you've probably found yourself online viewing and reacting to bite size pieces of mental health information. The difficult part of navigating the intowebs is deciphering information from misinformation, especially as it relates to our mental health. At times, in an attempt to better understand ourselves in the world we live in, we digest and share pieces of information that we don't fully understand or properly reflect our experiences. Take, for example, the terms trauma, bonding, gaslighting, and narcissism, all terms that you've probably heard before and maybe even us in your everyday life, but are you using them correctly? Joining me today for another one of our group chat conversations are my friends and colleagues, dr Ayana Abrams and Dr Joy back with both psychologists in Atlanta, and our conversation, we break down the definition of key terms we've noticed people using and misusing online, how and why that language will shared incorrectly, and we share suggestions on how to be mindful around information online. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, share it with us on social media using the hashtag tpg in session, or join us over in the sister circles to talk more in depth about the episode. You can join us at community that Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Here's our conversation. So the group chat has assembled once again, and I'm excited to chat with y'all about some of the terms that it feels like have been used very widely, I think, mostly on social media that are often it feels like being either misused or used incorrectly altogether. So I know that you have also seen me memes and people sharing all this stuff, and so I just wanted to get your take on some of these terms that that I think people should just be really careful about. So the one that comes to mind first is trauma bonding. So look at the collective side from both of you. So, how are you all mostly seeing this use and what do we want to clarify for people about what trauma bonding is. Unfortunately, I'm mostly seeing it used by therapists on Instagram, therapists like therapy coaches on Instagram, which I think comes up in a lot of ways. I think what has happened largely is that therapists have started I'm included right this way of trying to offer psychological education in bite size formats through images or i g. Stories or carousels. So I think we have been introducing psychological language to the community. And because they're not in therapy, you're gonna have a based, like really kind of hone in on stuff. A lot of people have run with those things in a lot of ways. I think it's our fault. I think we did this. I think we created this, and we'll let me not completely and I think the mental health system, if we talk about kind of systemically, right, the reason we are doing this is because we know that most people don't have access to mental health care, and we are trying to offer right some freeway for people to get some access to something more than what they have. But I think it's turned into now its own industry of that kind of psychological education. And that was one of the first ones that we began talking about. I think because a lot of therapists work with clients who are navigating or kind of dealing with trauma or kind of you know, consequences of traumatic situations, and then you pair it with a lot of people needing relationship help. We've got this trauma bond. I don't know the difference between misinformation and disinformation, but that no, I agree, Dr A. I think we did it, and I think, you know, for for all the reasons that perhaps were intended to be good reasons, like how can we start talking about these relationships that perhaps are unhealthy in a way that is a little bit casual. It's like, okay, so perhaps this is what's going on, and we've made it a term where you can kind of latch on and you know, has the trauma there, so it's like, Okay, this is trauma related and oh the connection, it's a bond that you have. So I think we like we did it in terms of making it where we're raising I guess, like public awareness about kind of the dynamics of these relationships. But there's some pros and cons to speaking of it in this way. And as we see, then everybody is trauma bonding, so we're not really talking about what exactly is So before you know it, it's like, oh, I went to the grocery store and that's what happened. I was trauma bonding with the cashier. No, you were not, you know, So we're now we're using this term and really not talking about exactly what is it and what are the potential dangerous involved when we trauma bond. So I think it came out with one intention and then it grew wings and it's yeah, taken over. Taken over, I mean, because you know, I think the traditional definition of trauma bonding is much more like us Stockholm syndrome, correct, Like, it is more like you have been through a traumatic experience and then you in some ways empathize with your perpetrator, right, and so, but what it feels like it's commonly used is you know, like oh, I have a traumatic experience, and then I share my traumatic experience with somebody and they had a traumatic experience, and so we then bonded over our trauma, which is not the same thing. I mean, it sounds very like it would make sense, right like, oh, we bonded over trauma, but that's not actually trauma bonding. Yeah, and you don't want to necessarily bond over your trauma. So it feels like now we have trauma bonding circles and it's like, oh, we've all experienced like this trauma and we're bonding over that. And it's like, well, although it's helpful for us to talk about the trauma that we've been through, it's like we also don't want to, you know, ruminating doesn't help, and kind of staying there does not do anything for who I'm talking to about my trauma. So yeah, so it's gone away from the original definition. And then your trauma, my trauma. We've experienced it, But where's the help, you know, what are we doing now instead of like, Okay, I've experienced this, and then we go online and we're making reels and TikTok videos about the trauma that we've all experienced as a result of whatever. So it's just not helpful if we, you know, continue letting it be used loosely like this. And I think largely people still do not understand what trauma is. I'm seeing a lot of blurriness between right things that people experience as trauma versus things that are unpleasant, things that you know, people that people remember from the past that were unpleasant experiences, and that is also still very different from a traumatic experience. And I think again, because all of that gets lost right because of how we are learning about this in these sound bites and in these instagram clips. You're not working with somebody who can really help you understand and discern that because you remember something unpleasant that happened doesn't mean that was a traumatic experience. Because anything happened that you didn't like or was unexpected or that was painful for a while also doesn't mean that that was traumatic for you. So I think that even the conversation abound trauma and trauma bonding also really dilutes what people can understand or accepted about like the human experience that there are things that will happen that are not okay, that you didn't want, that you didn't like. But that doesn't always mean that you have been traumatized in some way and that you are a trauma survivor, right, or that that you now have this new identity because things didn't happen in a certain way, or that you were hurt or that things harmed you. Harmful things also don't equate to trauma. It's a whole it's a fuller experience. And I think that if you are not working with someone professionally or kind of have more kind of a sensibility around that than yes, your narrative would be that everything has been trauma for you. And I think that again, social media, unfortunately, can help promote that same theme or theory. We see a lot of these posts that say all the different things are trauma, You've been traumatized, if this or this is a trauma response. That's the other one that kind of comes with this. Yes, yes, yes, not liking apples is a trauma response, right. It's a're desiring to eat all of your food on your plate and having difficulty throwing it away or walking away from it is a trauma response because maybe it's a child, you didn't have food, you know, just yeah, everything is a trauma, so that all of that goes together. It's the same way in which we have really diluted what trauma is, which I think also then serves to to be harmful to people who have had traumatic experiences because now people are having a harder time naming that, they're feeling more confused around that, they're feeling invalidated by like, well, if that's trauma, what is this? What was my experience of it? That's what you're talking about. It minimizes the seriousness of trauma. You know that you can experience things that are unpleasant, that are negative, and it not necessarily means that I have PTSD as a result of that. And so, yeah, you're right. We have someone else who endured something where harm or death or the idea of serious death you know, was actually real, and they have nightmares, they have these memories, they have severe anxiety, they're waiting for the other shoe to drop. And so you're listening to someone say that this experience at the grocery store was you know, traumatic for them, or they have PTSD as a result, and you're looking at your thing and it's like, oh my gosh, what is happening with me? And I think that's what people are bonding over. They have these experiences and it's like why do I behave this way and why do I act this way? And it's not necessarily trauma. It's like, ooh, we've had this shared experience. It does not mean I have PTSD from my childhood or from my relationship, and we need to talk about that in that way. But if you are, you know, having nightmares, if you are having severe anxiety, if you are unable to kind of function as a result of kind of what's happened to you, that's a different thing and it requires a different intervention. But I think it's all gotten lost. So where the public awareness is, there's like awareness of what yeah, yeah, so I mean so it does feel like there's a growing conversation and under you have all heard it about it, you know, big T trauma versus little T trauma, right, and so it feels like there is space and I think rightfully so for us to like expand our understanding of all the things that could be trauma, right, I think for a long time we thought only war and like you know, seeing somebody's shot were traumatic experiences. So of course now we understand that there are tons of other things that can be traumatic. How do we help people differentiate what is considered trauma? Like what are the guidelines around what we can define as trauma versus something that may have been unpleasant but may not necessarily fall within the realms of trauma. I think like when in doubt, I go back to what it is that we know, like you know, our d s M for example, It's like, I really do want to go back to how do we define something that is, like, you know, traumatic, Like what are so I can validate your experience and the fext of your experience without necessarily saying you need to be labeled as having trauma or labeled as having PTSD and sometimes helping you to understand like, hey, this is what happened, So do you have clarity? Is it PTSD or is it necessarily traumatic? Like that was a horrible experience, a very unfortunate, unfair experience, but really going back to, okay, what are the results of that experience, and so that they can see clearly, okay, everything isn't traumatic, but I do have increased anxiety, I am having nightmares, I am detached or I am kind of dissociating or detaching from experiences. I do feel numb, so really going through with them. So it's not discrediting your experience or saying that's traumatic and that's not traumatic, but saying hey, here's how we define trauma and let's look at it, and having them to help me with Okay, is this what your experience is? And so you tell me if this is considered very traumatic for you based on this criterion definition. So there's no bias in there. So they get to step outside of the experience a little bit themselves and see, okay, you know what, this was severe, this was very impact fold. There's some residual stuff, and so they can decide what is traumatic and what is not traumatic. So I love standards, I love some procedures there. I love something that is common language, that is research based, and so when they do experience something traumatically hopefully not, it's like, okay, now that's what this is. And so also I don't like people to walk away and it's like, hey, I have trauma from my past relationship and so now you've labeled yourself as this person with significant trauma will know you were greatly heartbroken, you even perhaps were depressed as a result of your last relationship. But I don't want you to give yourself labels in terms that are not founded or grounded in any research that don't have any basis. So I always go back to how do we define it? And having them to help us with is this your experience? That is the crux, right of what gets missed in social media exchanges or interactions. There's not room for kind of that deeper process and not even having kind of the language right or their criteria to be able to kind of in a deeper way kind of process or kind of explore where anybody might fall right on any of that spectrum. And I think what also gets missed the conversations that I'm able to have with clients, you know, trauma does come up is one we are also continue to assess for safety. So I'll talk to clients a lot about ways in which I tend to differentiate how I'm hearing their narratives and how they're experiencing their bodies. Is that something happens, either they have an experience, they witness something that hears something the vicarious trauma that changes their sense of safety in the world, and that we're still also looking at these criteria because if that sense of safety has changed, then you might be feeling more anxious, you might be feeling more depressed, you might be feeling more numb. Right, So kind of pairing that with has something shifted in terms of how safe you feel in this world, in this dynamic, in this area, in this relationship, in whatever it might be. And that is a way in which I can help kind of bridges the gap right between the criteria and the subjective experience of this right, which is why I recognize that on the flip side of that, I know we also say, like, you can't tell somebody they weren't traumatized by something, right, because it's about their subjective experience of this thing. But what I'm always look king form and assessing is safety did something shift? Where now the way in which you experience your sense of safety and security in this scenario like environment, has that been inevitably shifted after this thing happened Historically, Like you were saying, Dr Joy that you were only allowed to name trauma as it related to war, a car accident specific kinds of violence, right that people haven't historically thought about community violence or you know, systemic violence as traumatic. Right, They don't see poverty as violence when I do see poverty as violence. So also being able to expand those things, right, but really talking to people about how safe they feel given these different factors, and that helps me lean into whether or not they might feel traumatized by this. And that also doesn't mean that we're using that language if we do discern, right, that this was a traumatic experience. I always lead with what the client might name, because a lot of my clients don't want to name trauma. I wasn't traumatized, they don't want that label. It also seems like a lot of people want this label these days, Like people like want to have a story of difficulty, they want to have a story of trauma. I think a lot of people are beginning to see some kind of like social value. Those are things that I'm noticing on social media. Or it's just like it's like I want to be traumatized. You don't really want to be traumatized, but like you think you do because maybe now you are seeing on social media that that's the way in which people are connecting. So I mean noticing that actually with the young I'm probably millennial me and under are, they are seeking these ways right to be like I have this, I have this, that horrible thing happened to me. I've never been the same, so like, let's connect. I'm actually seeing a shift in people rejecting a narrative of of having been harmed or kind of having trauma to I do I do? I do me too, me too. So I think that's also an interesting like phenomenon that we're now seeing shift. You're so right, It's like there's this badge of honor. But I think it's the spite the fact that I have been traumatized. I am still like in school. You know, these things like this badge of hon it like I endure trauma. I endure this, or my childhood was traumatic. What does it do? Does invalidate the reason you know that I'm I'm a little delayed in this, this and this because I've had to overcome a whole lot because of this trauma. You know, I've still been able to achieve this despite this, you know, this trauma. So yeah, I've been seeing it where it's a thing where everything is like this is traumatic, or we bond it because of this trauma, and look at what we've been able to attain because of this trauma. And I think along the same lines in this trauma, and I know this is probably about to be like oh my gosh. It's like everything is triggering, you know. So that's another way I am triggered. It's like, oh, you know what, the store was closed. I feel triggered, you know. So you know, and there are real triggers when we talk about trauma things, it sounds, smells all of those things that remind us of a traumatic event. So triggers are really real. But also it's become such a common term. Yeah, I feel triggered because of this, this and that. So it's it's all of that. So not only is it a badge of honor seemingly in the social world where oh, you've experienced trauma and you've been able to triumph over it, or you have something that's in common, there's a sense of belonging with other people who have endured trauma. It's this thing of like, oh, I feel triggered. This thing triggers me. So another word, So y'all have said a whole lot that I feel like I'm trying to like figure out because I agree with you in that I am also seeing that especially I think with younger people, right, and I wonder what it is about. And of course we are a psychologist, right, so I think that's our natural inclination, like what's the story here? Like what's happening? But it does, in a lot of ways feel like people are just very excited to finally have language to be able to describe what's happening, right, And so you know, I don't necessarily pathologize it. I don't think that's what y'all are saying either, but it does feel like people finally have language to describe, like this awful thing happened to me, or I realized now that everybody's experience wasn't like that, and so now I have a name to call it. To your earlier point, dr a around like we as therapist kind of did this, right? I want to kind of take a step back and kind of figure out is there a way too maybe in some ways course correct? Or is it is it a problem? I mean, because it does very much feel like yes, Like I think that that is a lot of our goal, right is to be able to give people something, right, Like we do understand how broken the mental health system is. We want to try to make things more accessible, but I think there has to be a limit, right, And so when you just see a carousel, you know you can't go too far with like talking to any one person in a comment section about like what their personal experience of something has been. And so it feels really hard to know, like, Okay, is there a way to do this that is like helping people or are we actually doing more harm by like giving this information without an actual contained way to help somebody fully explore what's happening with them. I don't know if this answers it completely dr Joy, but I think you make a really good point. I think that's probably where we struggle, because we see the cons are the dangers, the potential dangers in you know, kind of letting these terms be free flowing out in the world. But the good side of it is kind of what we've always wanted. I think we're saying that it's using some of these terms raises the awareness that a person can have these various experiences and it can look a different way. I think we want to feel that we are not alone in our experiences. So now we're talking about things that we have experienced, we're talking about our traumas, we're talking about our childhood. So it's letting us know that, you know, you're not alone. This is more common than not. So that's the benefit and the beauty of that these words are causing conversation. So I think it also changes the narrative when we talk about kind of the shame that's attached to mental illness and that and the attached I think that it changes the narrative where when we think a person has been say, let's say traumatized, or they may have and I'm gonna use air quotes here high functioning depression or whatever, it changes. I know, don't roll your eyes at me, I know, but it changes the narrative. Oh you guys are giving me those sharp eyes and look down. Changes the narrative of how we have seen these things in the past. And so you know, we think about what has perhaps trauma looked like when someone's experienced something really really like seriously traumatic, or what has depression looked like? And we've been afraid to necessarily claim or own our experiences because we're afraid of like oh, if you say this person is depressed or they've been through something traumatic, it looks this one way, and we're talking about it. So it allows us to see that, you know what, it doesn't look this one way. You don't have to be a shame if you've experienced depression or something that's really really traumatic. So yes, that's the pros and we're like, yes, finally we're having these conversations. But then we're like whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, rilling it in some And so maybe an answer is to allow the convert, you know, as much as we can, because we don't have all power, but you know, to see these conversations and for us not to water than when they're being used incorrectly. So being able to say, I do understand what you're talking about. These reoccurring thoughts, you know, are definitely a sign of PTSD. So being able to validate what is real in the sense of how we define it or yes, being in bed for days and still going to work, that is definitely how depression can look. So how we don't kind of join into the party when we realize that it's going in the wrong direction. So I don't have to you know, wave a flag and say stop it, stop talking that way, that's wrong. No, I love the conversation. I love that we're honest, open and talking about it, but making sure that we are honoring the work, the research. We're honoring what we know to be true. So just as we started it, you know, it's out there. Now, what are you doing and being honest with yourself? Like you know, am I doing reels talking about trauma bonding? And am I doing it the wrong way? Our health is not for likes and for like re posting to go viral. If we don't want to at the expense of those things, compromise like the health, because it's a real deal. I absolutely agree. I think that in general, therapist in some of these social spaces and having these conversations and the conversations happening, are doing more good than they are doing harm. I think there are spaces that are much better at this than other spaces right in terms of what they are sharing and how they are sharing and how they are are nuancing it. But I also recognize that given that this is happening through certain media, it's limited. So I think that what's also happening that we're really getting caught up in this needs to happen in thirty seconds. I need to explain this really really heavy nuance layered subjective personal thing in sixty seconds in a reel in a carousel and a hit on Twitter when you only have a hundred I'm not on Twitter a hundred and forty. No, it's to eight characters whatever. It is right that with us trying to use that particular forum to get this information out in this mass way, we've conformed, We've changed the information, We've shifted what we can even say to try to make sure that people get it. But again, people can only get but so much so I think we've also lost the art of the subjective language in that because of how we're trying to make it through. We can have hours of conversations with clients. We can't do that on social media. Allow mean, some people are I'm sure, but like, we can't do that on social media. So it turns into you've got this many characters. People don't read captions, right, it turns into all this stuff where it's like I gotta get it here. And then you add to how social media is also kind of changed how a lot of the mental health industry is also kind of accessing clients and business and all this stuff that people want to go viral. So you want to get the thing, you want to say the thing. And if you say that this is trauma bonding and you know that trauma bonding is a big thing, you're gonna get more likes and follows and shares and all that stuff in terms of whatever that can turn into for you. I think the larger problem is this intersection that we're seeing at the mental health industry. Lack of mental health care, lack of enough mental health professionals, increased need, and then we've got social media as this quick way to try to help people, and it's very very limited. It's really really limited to to the knowledge that we have, and it's really limited to the care that is needed. But if that is our funnel, then we go based on that, and I think that is largely why and how the harm is happening in this way. I also recognized that because mental health and or mental illness has become in some ways a bit more trendy for industries and for a number of industries to kind of jump on and say that they're responding to and really valuing people can also take advantage of the increased popularity of it and are not there to really offer care. They're there to make money. So I think that's a whole other piece of this. But us talking about the inter section of technology and the certain forums that we're doing this on to be able to spread more awareness creates this kind of bottleneck, right, So people are dancing to things that people are doing different things to try to kind of get people to the information. But we don't really know what people are getting from this. They're laughing at and that's this, but it's it's really incongruent oftentimes with the content that we are sharing and trying to kind of share really heavy things. So I really don't know how it's landing with people. More from my group check conversation after the break. So just to make sure so that no one comes for our girl, I think we just said today it's because you know, in the very beginning, you started off by saying like, hey, we did it this to ourself, and you know, because we know better. I think what you're saying, it's very possible that we unintentionally in our quest to increase awareness and because of the lack of you know there's a greater need and demand than actual resources at this moment. You're saying in our trying to get all of this information out in thirty seconds and to make it where this is a really important topic, and I want to make sure that you know our audiences get this information that we have very likely compromised unintentionally the information that we put out why the group, I mean, listen, what is we doing? But also I also with that, I also think it is ethically our responsibility to take responsibility for how we are sharing information and what we are saying and what we are not saying, and for us to kind of do our own internal work around what is the motivation and what is the goal for this that is our own like self a therapist work that again, people out there have no clue that those are things that we are supposed to be doing and navigating ethically. So I think it's also on us to to take that responsibility for what we are sharing, how we are sharing it, and of really being clear about what the motivation is and if we're not doing that self awareness work, this is why these things will also continue to absolutely it becomes what is driving It's like, okay, you want to get your followers or your likes, or you want to go viral, or you want to get more clients or whatever this is you want to be on this panel. It's like, we have to be self aware to know like at this point you are compromising or to put this out in thirty seconds is doing more harm than it is good. And so being aware again, we cannot compromise what we're ethically sworn to do and give and provide and the care that people and trust with us. We have just to keep that at the forefront because otherwise you're doing these reels and it may seem fun and there's more visibility, but you're right, once it's out there, we have no control over how it's being interpreted or where they decided to post that information. And although we want to increase awareness and put it out there, there's a responsibility of person, you know, especially when it becomes you are a doctor such and such. It's like, okay, well, the doctor such and such said that this is trauma bunding, and now I'm going I'm telling my family because of this, this and this, and so it goes back to what we're saying earlier to be mindful of am I watering this or am I adding gasoline onto this fire? So if you feel like you have to be engaged in this conversation, how are we going to be engaged in this conversation? So it's like, oh, that's cute, and I don't have to take it personal that you decided to use that word. It's not personal. It's like, I love that we're having a conversation about this, but let me you know, my little whatever fifty characters are going to tell the truth basically. So another term that comes up quite often is gas lighting. So gas lighting and I have also seen a new spin on the term self gas lighting, which I was not aware of. So this is another term related to an old movie right around this man and wife or husband and wife, and he was like turning off the gas or turning on I can't remember, to make her think that like the lights were on when they really were and or something like that, right, but to kind of make her feel like she couldn't us her own It was like the heat she was feeling. It was like the gas and he was turning it off and on, so she would be cold and need a blanket and right, so making her feel like she could not trust her own experiences, right, like she couldn't trust her own knowledge, and that is I think a hallmark sign of narcissistic personality disorder, right, which it is often tied closely to you know. So again it feels like this is one of those terms that has escaped the confined of where it started and now anything that is dishonest or anybody who is not being completely truthful like oh, they were gaslighting me, And so I want to hear from you both, like what are some of the dangers of again this kind of a term not necessarily being used correctly, and did we define like what it really is? Like, hey, it is psychological manipulation right where the abuser is like sowing the self doubt and intentionally trying to cause confusion in the victim's mind. So this is what it is. That could be a lie or you're trying to play mind games or you're trying to trick me. But it does not necessarily mean that I have been like gas lits or you are guys lighting me. And I think you named it. It's the piece about it being intentional. So where I hear it get really murky for a lot of people is that when somebody is disagreeing with you, that they are gaslighting you. If somebody just isn't in the same kind of space with you, doesn't maybe believe what you have said, there's an argument about it. They don't see things the same way that you see things. Now, what has come out of that is that you are gaslighting me, right, because you do not believe that I have had this experience and I think that Again, it has to be noted that this is about intentional manipulation, where somebody is denying your experience of something and they're trying to also make you question your lived experience. It is not them not understanding you. It is not not agreeing with you, right. It is not them arguing with you. It is not them not believing that something happened. It's them trying to buy different words by different kind of version, different actions get you to not believe yourself so that you would more than likely become more dependent on them, right, because in you being confused, you would be more vulnerable, and in your vulnerability, you would gravitate back towards them. So it is a power play, right. But people disagreeing with you mostly is not because they're trying to get power over you or confuse you. They are literally having a different experience of the same thing. And I think that is really difficult for people to discern when they feel activated right, when they want to feel understood, when they want to feel cared for, when they want to feel seen, and somebody doesn't. It's really disregulating for some people. And now we've got this term to be able to add to it, and again in thinking about the ways in which these days we are very short on language, so that fits it. Well, Okay, you're denying my experience. You must be gaslighting mess. There's so many other options of what is happening here, and I think that we are removing the different options and the nuances of what really happened and relationships. Yes, absolutely, and I love it. Dr A, you're saying, hey, just because I don't agree with you, or perhaps I don't understand your perspective or your experience, or I don't quite believe it happened that way. I think that if we automatically latch onto that this is gas lighting, then you've said it like your gas lighting me. It's like a cascade, Like now you're going down this path and it becomes all of these other things that are attached with a person who legitimately gas lights, And so I think it reduces our opportunity for like a resolution. If I believe that you don't understand me, or if I believe that, okay, you know what I see, you disagree, let's have some conversation about it. If I'm looking at it from those lens, then we can kind of have a resolution. This thing does not have to become bigger. But once I've said that you are gas lighting me, I'm activated, you're gas lighting me, I'm going hard now. And this thing that started out as something significant but not as big, has now turned into something big. And often what I've seen in doing couples work, it's a term that Okay, maybe the one person is familiar with it and another person is not as familiar with it. So then what do we go Do you said I'm gas lighting you? Gaslighting you? So then the other person goes to look it up, and there's nowhere to go but down from there. When you start to look up what it says the true definition of gas lighting that I'm this horrible, horrible person, and now why are you with me if I'm so horrible and I'm you know, you're saying I'm manipulating. So instead of being able to discuss, you know, what are the behaviors that that you're seeing that you're not happy with compassion or empathy or let's work on communicating your feelings, it just does not give us the opportunity to be able to deal with what perhaps is the core issue we're experiencing here because we've already attached this label to it of your gas lighting me. Yeah, And I do feel like this is the perfect segue into discussing narcissism, right, which is gas lighting is first cousin, right, you know, because I do think, you know, like we talked about earlier, people want to understand their relationships, right, Like, we want to understand ourselves, and we want to staying like who we are in relationship, and we want to understand our partners. And so I think this has become one of those again topics where it feels like, oh, this person does this, this, and this, they are narcissists, right, when really we know that very few people actually meet the criteria for a narcissistic personality disorder, right, and so kind of again throwing around this term that this person is a narcissist like you mentioned Dr Joy. Okay, now that you've labeled them as this, like, is there any way for a resolution? Is there any opportunity for discussion for or for us to get on the same page if you've now labeled this other person as a narcissist? And you know what happens like once you label something like, oh, it's a beautiful day outside, then you see the beauty in it. It's a bad day, then you see the bad things in the day. So once you label a person, ask, oh my gosh, like you're a narcissist. And guess what, Now I'm starting to pick out all the things that you know, I feel a narcissist does, Like look at you. You know you're calling me, expect me to answer. I couldn't wait for me to call back. And you know, it's like, what is how copening here? Because you made up in your mind that this person is narcissistic or you know you're wanting me to help you. It's like, I don't know if that's a narcissist, And so it just leads us down this path of where there's just not seen to be a good end. And again we can't resolve or it's difficult to resolve because I've automatically attached this definition to you. Yeah, and again it's the problem of the lack of nuance, right, that there's a difference between someone exhibiting narcissistic traits, which reach our shows many of us have narcissistic traits. It can actually be really useful for us to have some narcissary trades, depending on how we're using them to kind of move through different scenarios or stay motivated or you know, boost our self esteem. There's a difference between having narcissistic traits and having narcissistic personality disorder. Right, But people put that all together and just say that you are a narcissist. Right, So now we have this kind of identity, right that it's formed with this person, and that misses all of the nuances and all of the criteria that we as mental health professionals. No, you need to meet pretty significant criteria for a certain amount of time in order to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. And I also recognized that what the research shows are kind of what people think is that you know, more men are narcissists, right, so that we've also got this like gender conversation and dynamic around it. And because people don't understand the statistics like we do, that it's actually pretty rare, right, it seems really common, but it's it's actually fairly rare in terms of general population. But there were maybe eighty five percent of the women in this chat that said that they were dating a narcissists or had dated narcissists. And in my mind, what I said to myself was, unless y'all have all been with the same three people, that is statistically not possible, right, statistically not it. Absolutely, you were in relationships where you did not feel loved, you did not feel cared for, you do not feel understood, you do not feel met. Somebody said something that was harsh to you or mean or harmful. But all those things also don't equate to narcissist because there's so many more criteria that, again the general population does not understand. And for a reason, there's a reason why there are a certain number of people who have studied this for years understand this in a certain way, and that's why it's not kind of this widespread thing where we are just naming everybody as narcissists. But again, sound bites, Instagram carousels, reels, TikTok stuff. Right, the four signs are dating a narcissist. There's more criteria than these four signs. Right, Trust what you're seeing online. You're trusting kind of where this information is coming from. So you take that information as truth, even if we can put all the disclaimers and all that kind of stuff, right, you take that information is truth. You apply it to your life, and you're probably gonna come across seventeen people who you would diagnose, right with narcissistic personality disorder. And that's not that people get to be jerks and not kind and not nice and not love you and not and they're not narcissists, right, absolutely, dr Yeah, they get to be selfish, You get to choose yourself over someone else, and it's not because you are narcissistic. And I think one of the downsides of doing that sometimes it's so so that it explains the end of a relationship or why something did not work, you know, so it becomes a oh, it didn't work with this person because this person was a narcissist or you know, this is my family because my parent was a narcissist. And I think that if you put it automatically on there, then it can decrease your desire to work on what happened in that relationship, because now it's been this other person's fault, so it's not necessarily a youth thing. It's like, okay, because he was this way, this way is this way, and the last two were this way. But I think when you are able to label the behaviors that didn't serve you in the relationship, then you can really kind of look at yourself and say, you know, how did I find myself in this relationship? What were the things? So maybe the fact that this person was so confident of the fact that they had these self care days. You know, it was appealing in the very beginning of the relation ship until you got in it and it's like, okay, we haven't gone out, and but you're going on the self care day. So now it seems like you're so selfish. You want what you want and you know you have these um were boundaries are healthy, But in the context of this, when I've labeled you as a narcissist, then this boundary becomes a problem. So I think that sometimes we do that and we put it on the other person in terms of their narcissism in a way to not sit with ourselves and to say, Okay, you know, how did I find myself on this type of relationship? If the last three men you dated have been narcissists, then you know, to take a look at self and say, what's going on here? Why am I attracting? What is appealing to me about these certain characteristics? And so I think it's easy to say, oh, that's what it is, girl. Yeah, that makes sense because you know, I'm dope, I'm awesome, I'm wonderful. So it was the fact that X, Y, and Z. So it's so much danger and automatically labeling it there. So like you said, you can have characteristics of it and not actually have the disorder because we know how difficult it is to reach that criteria. And if all of the women in this group all data narcissists, then we need to figure out where they are because that's a great research study. How hard is to find them? So yeah, more from my group chat conversation after the break. So what y'all are talking about, you know, in terms of labeling, it does feel like there's some kind of like armchair diagnosing going on right, just like you know, the Monday morning quarterbacks, Like it definitely feels like there are some armchair diagnosing of like, oh, I see all of this stuff and this meets the criteria that I saw on this Instagram post, So you now have narcissistic personality disorder. But in addition to people I feel like doing some of that diagnosing of others. It also feels like there's a lot of self diagnosing, and y'all have kind of talked about that some, but I do want to hear your thoughts on the increase. I think that we are seeing in terms of people looking at something that they see on socials, of a video that they see on YouTube, and then diagnosing themselves and what are the dangers there? But also why is it happening? Right? I think for a lot of the reasons we talked about in terms of the system, but I do think we have to be careful. I think people have to be careful in terms of diagnosing. So what are your thoughts about that. I think we have seen an increase just with the adjunct to the increase in this information being available online. Right, So not only related to mental health, but we see you know the web ed D rabbit hole, right, or the healthline rabbit hole right, that you can find anything. And again, I think it goes back to a limited understanding and kind of acceptance of the human experience, right, and that not everything is going to be pleasant all the time. I think we got lost a long time ago with this like you know, happiness goal and us believing that happiness is the standard and that you should always feel like that and positive psychology. I think that has kind of created this setup where if anything feels a right, it must be a problem. And then because our brains literally right needs to solve problems, that kind of figure out what's going and kind of cessed for threat. We've now got all this information at our fingertips, and in point zero zero zero five seconds we can find the five diagnoses of why I don't think that he likes cats and he should like whatever the thing might be. Right. So I think it's heavily related to our inability to as a society, our inability or kind of lack of understanding around tolerating distress, so that when distress is present, it's really disregulating for us, and then we want to get rid of it, so we go to find what are the ways to get rid of it? Who knows about this thing that I might be experiencing, and then that kind of sends us down whichever rabbit hole about these things. And I also recognize that being able to access a lot of this information online is another opportunity for like self advocacy because I recognize the limits of health care and oftentimes when we go into different spaces work, particularly for black women, where we're going in and talking about what's going on with our bodies, we get denied, we get rejected, we get dismissed. Somebody tells us that our pain is not this. So I recognize that there is a part of this threshold that feels really important for us to access information so that we can take better care of ourselves in a system that historically has not done the best. But it's that fine line of that and wanting to use this information and be able to use the healthcare set and say, hey, I think it might be this. I'm noticing this about myself. I'm the expert on me you're the expert on this. Can we put that information together versus going into the office saying, I've got these three diagnoses, my daddy did it. This is this, this is what you need to do, and that is all I will accept. I think it's having some flexibility and some magility around how we're using that information. So you're exactly right. I think it goes back to sitting with the human experience, and I think what we've had the opportunity to do, whether we ask for it or not, as we seek to understand the human experience, we are seeking to understand our own personal experience. Why do we experience life this way? So what is it with me? And so as we're sitting in the house trying to understand ourselves, what do we do? We look for information because they're problem solvers, and so where do we look for information in the palm of our hand? And so there's this social media where all of this information is like, oh, I'm looking for dislike cats. You can look and you know, let's see who has used the hashtag dislike cats. And you know what, if it's your lucky day is attached to some type of disorder, and so you're seeking some type of understanding, in some type of clarity, so we get it in that in terms of why is it happening? And we are experiencing, of course more distressed. The downside of that is, as we seek to have clarity, as we seek for we seek information, as we seek understanding, we run the risk of mislabeling ourselves. So you basically said, based on what you found out here, whether it's web md, whether social media, in these reels, okay, now I have this, and so what's as you're saying, Dr A, you want to be able to advocate for yourself. But what happens with a mislabeled misdiagnosis and then our treatment is definitely impacted. So you know, you feel that if you don't go to a doctrine sometimes if you do, but if you don't, it's like, oh, now I have this or I have trauma. So now you're doing these other tools and techniques that you have said that because I have trauma. Now I'm doing these things that I've read about online because I'm treating my trauma. And so are we really healing the wound? Are we really making it better? Or we making it worse? Because we are now doing and engaging in things, interventions that are not even targeted at what this thing is rooted in. So that's the downside of it. So I do get it. Or we want to be able to advocate for ourselves. We want to be able to educate ourselves. So if we need to tell our provider this information, we can. But if we're getting not so good information, we've attached this not so true label to ourselves, then we're engaging in interventions and behaviors that are not necessarily doing what we are wanting and expecting to do. And that's the unfortunate part. So I think that we seek to know, we seek to understand, But there is that fine line. Yeah, any given day, I got fourteen diagnoses and it is m any given day. Wasn't that everybody's experience when we first took our abnormal cyclass, Like, oh, I definitely meet criteria sometimes all at the same time. It's like all about all of them. Yeah, And I think human behavior is just so fascinating and so interesting. Of course we want to know about ourselves, right, And I think that's the point that like the general public maybe doesn't always see that, Like even as people who are trained. That was a part of our experience. But you continue your training and then you realize like, no, you don't actually meet criteria for all of this, right. But if you are just now introduced to all of these like oh, I can check this list off, but there is no additional training or understanding or nuance to go with it, then you just kind of stopped there, as opposed to like continuing to learn more about why it's not appropriate and why you don't actually need criteria for these things all right, And you think about the relief when we said, oh I have all of these things, and the relief once you studied more and learn more, it's like, Okay, I don't and it's like okay, good because if I feel like I got all these things, and then it's like I feel like my life is like jacked up now. So then you know there are these limits because I walk around carrying all of these things. I think what perhaps happens out in the world is that you now feel like, okay, I have all of these things. And on one hand, it's like okay, now I understand, okay, good, so now understand why I am this way or why I feel this way. But once that one thing turns into twelve, then how do you operate now? Now you feel that I am perhaps damaged or there's some limits to me, and it's like, well, it may not even be true. And so now you're figuring you can't do this, or you can't marry, you can't go to school, you can't whatever because of these things. And it's like you said that, no one else said that. You said that, and you said that because of a real thirty seconds, Yeah I got reposted, and so just really being mindful of that. Yeah, So I think that that is you know, where I would like us to kind of wrap up is if you could both offer some suggestions or advice around like how people can be mindful around the information that they find on one like what kinds of things should they be paying attention to on how do they make use of it carefully? I love for Dr A said when you said you are the expert on you, and I think that we start there. I think that you know, your experience is your experience and is a valid experience. And so if there's something that we're seeing online it's like wow, that feels very familiar to me, or I think that offers some insight into how I've been feeling, it is okay if that basically resonates with you, But knowing that these are not credible spaces necessarily, and knowing where am I getting my information from? All of our experiences are different. So just because you experience it too, you are now not the expert or this person is not the expert on that particular thing because they had the experience, and so I'm okay, whatever comes up for you or whatever resonates with you. But being saying, okay, where can I go to meet with a licensed provider, someone who's trained at hey, and you can take your experience into the room. This is what I experienced, And I actually saw something on social media that talked about this, and this is what I experienced that was similar in that particular post and being able to work through that because you really do want to have understanding, you really do want to get better, You really do want to target whatever it is that's perhaps causing you discomfort or the struggles that you're having when it comes to the experience of life. So I think being mindful of the source where we're getting the information from, and then being mindful of where we go to for help and we go to for treatment, So the experience is valid, your feelings are valid. But then what do we do now as a result of all of that? Yeah? Absolutely, The main thing I was going to say was around the the source right, thinking about it, recognizing who you are sourcing information about yourself from. I think I would add to that, you don't have to be this constant self improvement project. You don't always have to be working on yourself, and you don't always have to be getting better. And I see things that I understand what the tent is like, you know, one percent better every day. It's just like some can I just be where I am today or for a week or two, like in the distress tolerance piece, right, But I think we are like walking self help sections of Barnes and Nobles, where it's like everything I should be doing to get better, I need more money, I need more clarity, I need better friends, I need higher following on social media. It's and I get wrapped up in it. Two So I understand it right from my own experience, But that can be really exhausting. You will more than likely find yourself reactively searching for all the things to get better, so looking online, buying courses, buying programs, getting coaches, like doing all this stuff that really can take away from you. Actually just feeling connected with who you are and kind of where you are now. I'm allowing that to be good enough. So just being mindful of how much time, energy, effort, money you spend on wanting to be different than who and how you are. So just being mindful of how much time, energy, effort, money, and I think that can that can be a helpful kind of mindfulness exercise, and yeah, being being mindful of of who you are following and how the information leaves you feeling. I want to say, last year, or maybe the year before, I unfollowed, probably unfollowed therapists. I couldn't do it anymore. It was too much. I'm following, are you following me? Hold on it now, because I don't be. I'm not on there like that. Let me go, okay, let me listen. Has been done. I still following to you, but I had to. I had to stop following therapists. It was too much for me, and I was trying. I was initially doing it to kind of support, but then I found myself doing it to kind of get ideas for social media that they're posting about this, so I should post about this, and oh my goodness, they're talking about this. I never I never learned about it that way. Maybe I should. I had to stop. It was too much, It was too too much for me. So also recognizing and and and leaning into write your own awareness of what gets activated for you when you see this kind of content. But if it's taking you further and further away from yourself, you can change up your theme. I love therapists, but I was doing way too much, doing way too much, so I need to follow, you know, puppy pages, not the good old met pages. Yeah. I love It's like that we get to like it's okay for us just to be and that we will constantly be in a state of becoming and that is okay. You know, we don't have to always you know, be you know, yeah, yeah, just be just me and that's okay. Yes, yes, Well, thank you again both for such beautiful, beautiful thoughts. Remind us where we can find you all on social media as well as your websites, on our on not so much on social media. Don't don't be trying to come for me. Dr Joy because I'm not on there like that. It's awesome you hearn lowlow listen, this is a a group watch out. I am asked Dr Joy A s K d R j O y on Instagram. So that's where I am not daily, not awesome but yeah, and where I am daily and probably too often for my own benefit. I am on Instagram at dr underscore Ayanna underscore A. So let's at d R underscore A y A n n A underscore A perfect And we will include all of that in the show notes. Thank you both. I'm so glad Dr Abrams and Dr beckw With were able to join me again this week to learn more about them in their work and to check out the other conversations we've had here on the podcast. Visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session to see and make sure to text two of your girls right now and tell them to check out the episode. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into this topic or just be a community with other sisters, come on over and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for black women. You can join us at Community dot Therapy for black girls dot com. This episode was produced by Freda Lucas and Alice Ellis and editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank you all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take it here