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While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session on one seventy three of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. Last week, we talked about some of the incredible benefits we experienced from being connected to nature, and you heard a little about how this connection has often been damaged in our community for lots of different reasons. So today we'll be chatting more about that, the ways the Black community has been disconnected from nature and the impact it has. For this conversation, I was joined by j Phoenix Smith M s W. Who is a certified eco therapist, initiated elder in the Afro Cuban Lokumi Arisha tradition, and a public health leader in Oakland, California. She has been practicing and teaching eco therapy since two thousand eleven and has been featured in the Atlantic Magazine and other publications. As a Black queer eco feminist, she weaves a study, knowledge and practice of indigenous technology of the Arisha, Western ecopsychology, and ecotherapy with over twenty five years of work in public health and social work. She's the founder of Eco Soul, where she consults with health care providers and nonprofits to teach and encourage the integration of nature based practices for healing diverse communities. Phoenix and I chatted about her practice of liberation ecotherapy, how she combines all of her experiences in working with clients, how the trauma to the land shows up in our experiences, and of course she shares some of her favorite resources. If you want to dig in more, If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media using the hashtag tv G in Session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Phoenix. Thank you. I am very happy and grateful to be here. Yeah, I am just so excited to dig into this topic with you. So you identify yourself as a queer eco therapist spiritual teacher whose work is grounded in liberation ecotherapy as a form of healing that is rooted in intersectionality. I don't think I've ever read a more powerful identifying statement. So can you tell us exactly what all of that means? Oh? Yes, thank you so much. What does that mean? Well, that means for me that I have been on a path of healing myself since I started going to psychotherapy when I was twenty two years old. I'm fifty two years old now and and on my path, I have been blessed with several things. One, I've always had really great black therapist too. I've always used holistic healing as part of my healing, not just traditional Western psychotherapy, but I have used massage for somatic healing. Raikie. I'm an avid meditator and have gone to several silent meditation retreats, and about twelve years ago, I was initiated Afro Cuban lucumi Arisia tradition. So I've been practicing and studying as an initiated priest and healer in a community for over a decade and my professional career as a social worker. I got my master's in social work at Howard University. I have worked in the field of public health for twenty five years. So I've been an advocate in health and in public health and wellness for black people, queer people, communities of color for a long long time. So I've been a will to bring my whole self to my work and learn a lot. What are some of the things that it takes to really liberate myself from my own traumas that I've experienced and to bring healing not just on the individual level, but on the policy level and community level for our communities. Love it. So can you dive more into the liberation ecotherapy? What does that mean and what does that look like? Ecotherapy? The term was coined by a pastoral counselor in the nineties named Howard klein Bell, and he was a licensed therapist, but he also focused on counseling people within the Christian Church. So he started to notice how when he would work with his communities, either individuals or couples, and he would integrate nature into their sessions. Their sessions would be outside in nature. He would bring plants that he noticed a different level of healing that they would have in the session. Also, he was very environmentally conscious and he wanted to clued the fact that if the Earth is traumatized and has been wounded, we are intimately connected to the earth. Our bodies are the Earth. We live on the earth and with the earth, and our healing needs to be connected to that. So that's where ecotherapy comes from apology, which is a form of psychology that looks at our psyche and how it's connected to nature. Out Here on the West Coast in San Francisco in the ninety nineties, a group of psychologists got together and they created this branch of eco psychology. However, for me, what I have found I'm one of the few black ecotherapists in the country, is that a lot of the theory and practice of eco psychology. Although it's very rooted in connecting with nature and environmentalism, it was sorely lacking the intersectional lens of racial justice and social justice. And I think that was mainly because the people that were bringing forth this type of healing were of European ancestry. And so for me, liberation is that if black people are not valued, if black people and indigenous people do not have social justice and healing and racial justice, then there's no way that we can ever get to a point of having environmental justice and healing with nature that the earth can be healed. Is that our healing is incidanutally intimately tied to the healing of the earth. And as people of the earth, black people and indigenous people, we have strong ancestral connections to the land that have been severed, that have been traumatized, and that we must talk about this healing and frame it not just around connecting to the earth so that we feel better or that we push forth environmentalism, but that healing of the people and nature and plants in the water, it's all connected for our liberation. Because we're living in an age right now of extreme climate change, we can have all the therapy we want in the world, all the healing motalities, if we are not connecting that to the liberation of people and the liberation of the earth, and we're really just I'm not going to get to a place of holness. So that's why I came up with the term liberation ecotherapy, and that it should be rooted also in racial justice and social justice for people all over the world. Okay, Phoenix, So you tell me if I'm off base with this, But from what you're seeing, it sounds like you know, and of course we know that we are connected to the earth. There is continuing spikes in racism, continuing increases in racial injustice, and we also see that there continue to be all these natural disasters, right and all of the ways in which it feels like every week there's a new phenomenon we hear about, like murder hornets, and you know, we know about what's happening with the ice casts and those kinds of things. So is it a fair connection to talk about the ways in which black Indigenous people have been mistreated and that is showing up in nature. It is fair to say that in many leading eco psychologists, psychologists ecotherapists. We speak of that all the time, that what happens to the earth is happening to our bodies. I mean, we can look at the issue of flint. They still don't have clean water. They still don't have clean water. Like for example, I live in Oakland, and I want to acknowledge the native community whose land I live on. I live here on the land of the ALONEI people from Oakland, and also the post me what people of the Bay Area. I think it's important to acknowledge the indigenous people whose land that we live on now. And I have to say, I'm a transplant to California. I grew up in Texas, San Antonio, Texas, and then I went to graduate school in d C. At Howard University, and I've lived here for twenty years. But prior to that, I didn't really have a consciousness around Indigenous people as far as really acknowledging them in my life around whose land I lived on. Nor did I really have a consciousness around environmentalism. I did not grow up camping or hiking or fishing or anything like that. This came to me later as an adult, and so I say that it's important to acknowledge whose land we're on, because today in Oakland, the lonely people, the Miwak people, they also suffer from some of the greatest rates of health issues, chronic health issues, of poverty, of police violence, and this is directly connected to the genocide that took place and is still taking place in many cases to their communities all over North America. And also in addition to that, there is a beautiful community of Native women in Oakland that are reclaiming the land here in Oakland and working with communities to get pieces of their land back for healing for themselves and their community. And I'm very inspired by their work. And ecotherapy is rooted in Indigenous healing. This is nothing new, right, I want to acknowledge that Indigenous communities have connected with nature for healing since the beginning of time. But Western psychologists, mainly European psychologists, have started to coin these terms equal psychology and ecotherapy, you know, fairly recently late eighties, early nineties, to create a practice and to bring more awareness to how our mental and emotional and physical healing is directly connected to nature. So yes, what we see, what is happening to the water, to the plants, the same levels of trauma, types of trauma are also happening to black people, to indigenous people, to pour people around the world. So we need to begin to think about not just politically, but our healing of time those together and that when we connect more with nature. For me, it's not just about us feeling good, but which is an important part of being able to find some peace and some healing. But also when we're finding this peace and healing and connecting in nature, hopefully it is raising our own awareness around our environmental activism and what we can do to get more involved in making sure that we're advocating for the earth and for the waters where we live. Got it, And so I'm curious to hear from you, Phoenix, if you think that that is a part of why so many of us have turned to plants right now. Right so we know that we are living through one of the most traumatic, if not the most traumatic experience in many of our lives, and we see an abundance of people talking about plants, so it feels like there is some connection and trying to kind of reconnect with nature in that way. There's definitely a connection, and I actually find with younger people in their thirties and twenties, they're wide open for this kind of healing. All over social media, we have black girls with gardens during this shelter in Place time. The number of people that are buying art and equipment and plants has increased during shelter in Place because now we're at home, we can't really go anywhere. What can we do though? We could connect with nature plants in our home and being outside when we're wearing masks and socially distancing, it's safer for our health right than being indoors. So now we have a huge consciousness of raising of people really understanding more and wanting to connect more with plants. I also want to say that there's also scientific research right that this is not just about we feel good. We know that this makes us feel good. Our parents, my great aunt Ruby, who's an ancestor now, was the person that took care of the garden and our family. The family all lived into generationally close together, and she was the person that took care of the garden. I had her story. In addition, I learned about five years ago that my paternal grandfather, during depression, he worked with the federal government was hiring a lot of men to give them jobs during the depression to help build national parks. So my great grandfather, Charles Smith was one of those men that got a job helping to build national parks. So this is also part of my family history and my family lineage. And also science says that a couple of things happened. Stanford researchers did a study where they looked at people's experience with urban nature where they're in a crowded city environment and they're walking, compared to nature, and they found that people experience less stressed their blood pressure went down. I mean, these are things that we know intuitively, but there's people that are doing a lot of research right now. Also two back up and show that nature is not just good for us because you know we live her on earth, but that it's really important for our health, for our mental health, for our spiritual health, and our psychological health. And so this is also rooted in science. There have been scientists in Australia that have done research that shows that plants have feelings and can communicate with us, right and so plants are not just sort of something that we take care with their living beings that we can build relationship with and you can see when you talk to your plants, you can see how the leaves make it brighter. But it also helps us develop a sense of ourselves. I also want to see people who have experienced trauma. Many of us have experienced trauma. Have found that sometimes it's very hard to connect relationally with humans right they're still living in the fight or flight mode where they get frozen from their trauma. That sometimes it's easier for them to relate to the nats your world, to a particular place in nature, to specific plants. And I want to bring in animals as well, because animal healing is part of ecotherapy. Animal assisted therapy. We see some people that are in prison they have worked with dogs and have been able to experience healing working with dogs. Equine therapy is where you work with horses and courses are very emotional animals and can really help people that have suffered and sense trauma to learn how to trust again and to learn how to access their emotions and their feelings. It has many, many benefits of connecting with nature, and it's not just one thing. It's not just working with plants. It can also be working with animals, it could also be doing nature based therapies and nature based activities. There's a variety of ways that connecting with nature really helps our mental and spiritual health. As you were talking Phoenix about like working with dogs and working with horses, I am also reminded how many Black people specifically often have traumatic experiences with dogs and how many of us even have access to horses. So if it also feels like there's some history there of like the things that would be healing for us, us not actually having access to most Definitely access is a huge issue. There was a study that came out recently. They talked about how people of color, black and brown people, we have less access to green spaces. Right, we have less access to beautiful green spaces our neighborhoods. We tend to live in neighborhoods that have higher levels of environmental toxins. The percentage of black and brown people that visit national parks is very low. Although there are many groups now that are working to uh bring war awareness to the Black community around going to national parks. There's Outdoor Afro, There's Latino Outdoors. There's many groups that are really helping to open up that space, but still the percentage is very low. So access is a huge issue. But what I say is nature is not just going to a national park. Nature is working with plants. If you have plants in your apartment, growing your own food. You can grow food in your own apartment. Nature is also connecting in if you have access to animals for healing. Right, Nature is also being outside connecting with people. It looks many different ways, but access is a huge issue, which wise also a social justice issue. It's not so easy to say, okay, just go outside nature and you can experience healing if you don't have access to it, if you don't have a car, how is that going to work. So that there are communities that are working to increase access for people of color to nature, but I encourage people to start where they are, And I also see ecotherapy as a practice that is best done in community. One of the things that we found is that we suffer so much isolation, and even more so now during shelter in place, we can't necessarily get together in person. But gardens and gardening is an essential service. Right now, you can still go to gardens, right You can still go to your urban garden right now. You might not be able to go to a restaurant, but during shelter in place, urban gardens are open and so you can still go spend some time there if you don't have your own gardens, or if you want to start growing your own food. So it's essential, just like it's an essential service, it's essential for us to find ways to connect with nature that's accessible to us. Yeah, do you have other suggestions we've already talked about, like people kind of buying plants and stuff like that and going to gardens, or there are other suggestions you have for how people can reclaim their connection to the land. A couple of things. One I think exploring your family history, your ancestors. We all have ancestors and living relatives elders that had some connection to the land in some way. I think the stories are important. In ecotherapy, we use the term earth story where we ask people to talk about themselves in the context of their earth story. What relatives in your family grew food or had gardens. So that's one way to just start to open up your own mind, body, and spirit to your own history that lives within you around connecting to nature. I would also recommend looking online for outdoor nature groups. There is so many more outdoor nature groups for black people, for black women, for Latino people, for queer people that you can find online that are still doing hikes out in nature, their socially distanced, and people are wearing maths. I also suggest because we're inside a lot. As I mentioned on social media on i G there are so many black women plant groups. Connect with sisters, connect with the brothers online and you will get lots of suggestions on how to begin. Also, I suggest connecting where you are and finding out where are there places near you that you haven't explored that perhaps you can go take a walk, or sit by the river or sit by the water, like, really explore where you live and start looking at where are places that maybe you have never even thought about that you could go and begin taking a walk every day. So there are many different ways that are via the internet socially where you can connect with other people and get ideas becoming more intimate with the place where you live and doing that research to find out where are those places where perhaps you could go fish, or you could go park hike, or you could just sit in the park. So Phoenix, as you were talking, I am really pulled in by this idea of an earth story. That's not a term I've ever heard, but it sounds like it would be like an incredibly powerful practice. But I'm also thinking about, like for our ancestors, so much of our history, at least here in the US, is like people's connection to being on plantations and like farming unwilfully the land. So I'm curious, like what kind of role that please in our earth story because that I think is a traumatic experience. Oh, it's definitely a traumatic experience. It's the same thing for people of Latino descent. I'm in California. We still have Mexican farm workers right now. That that's how we all are getting all our fruits and vegetables right now, is the Mexican farm workers that in the middle of COVID are still out there working the land. So of course, I think it's important for us to honor our ancestors and honor their sacrifices and the efforts they made in working the land. And at the same time, they also found ways to survive through the land. So we need to make sure that when we're looking at ancestral healing and our ancestral stories. We talk a lot about the intergenerational trauma, right, the trauma that's passed down from generation to generation. So if you had ancestors, many of us who Black Americans of African descent, had ancestors that were enslaved. I grew up in Texas that were share croppers, that experienced a lot of trauma. That is an important part of our story. However, I also want to say that's not all of our story, that's not our full story, and that they're also like my aunt Ruby, who tended the garden so that my family could eat. There weren't any grocery stores for them to go to. There wasn't a safe way or Kroger for them to go to. They grew the food that they needed. My mother, who recently passed, would tell me stories around how she would spend time in the garden, how she loved to climb trees as a little girl. So I think there's a balance there. It's not negating that there's that traumatic history. And mind you that there's still our incidences. Remember the brother in New York work in the Central Park birding, you know, was birden was going to look at beautiful birds and the white woman, you know, calls the police on him. That's still happening today, right, So I don't want to the gate that it's not always safe for us, but I think it's important for us to remember that it's not just the wounds that we care. We also carry the gifts of our ancestors, and I think it's important for us to remember that so we don't just get stuck in the trauma of what happened to our ancestors on the land. I think that's very important. Thank you so much for that, Phoenix. I appreciate you sharing that. And as you were talking, I'm also thinking, you know, in our efforts to reconnect with nature, I think it also feels like there's this weird tension of like commodification and capitalism that feels, you know, like, yes, people are excited and wanting to reconnect, but is there a way to do that where we are not com modifying you know, like native rituals, and you know, really in some ways acting further increasing like the imbalance between us in nature. Oh, I'm so glad you asked that question. How I want to answer that is one my perspective on ecotherapy and how I practice. It's really rooted in social justice, and I really stressed that in that ecotherapy, connecting with nature is not about buying more things to make us happy. It's actually trying to help us disconnect from that capitalist mindset right and connecting with the natural world. The reason why I mentioned the indigenous community on the lands where I live is to respect them and honor that many of these things that I'm talking about Native Americans, they haven't rooted in their philosophy of life. We honor them by recognizing them. We don't want to encourage anyone to try to recreate Native American rituals. I myself am initiated in an African tradition, so I don't have to do that. I have my own rituals that I have been taught by my elders and a reach a traditions that connects me directly to my ancestors that I am responsible to and for. Because I'm part of a lineage, I have elders that teach me, and I have students that I teach, and so I don't have to recreate any rituals that are not connected to my ancestors. We all have ancestors, whether we're of European descent, Asian descent. There's no need for us to recreate or try to take someone else's culture. If you explore your own ancestral lineage, you can find those things. I think it's very important to say that. I also want to say that ecotherapy does not take the place of traditional psychotherapy. It's something that can be practiced and complement to traditional psychotherapy, and it's low cost. It doesn't cost a lot of money to practice nature therapy. It's really to enhance our healing, our mind and body, spiritual healing. You know, that is how I see and how I practice and how I teach ecotherapy. Phoenix, Can you talk more about how your Aresia spiritual traditions informed maybe your practice in working with clients? Oh? Sure, so a couple of things. So like my environmental consciousness really started to grow when I started to practice their reach a tradition because you know, there's a power in naming something, so for me, in the Aricia tradition, the river fresh Water is known as the goddess Ocean jon is a is a goddess that's associated with healing, that's associated with feminine power, that's associated literally with our blood. The rivers around the world are like the veins of the earth. So O'shan is associated with childbirth, with relationships of community. So when I had a name for a river and I the river wasn't just the river. To me, it wasn't an inanimate thing. It had my life and the spirit. It gave me a whole different perspective on how I treated water. Right. So for me, my spiritual tradition has given me names for places in nature. The ocean is identified with the Erisha yema Ya, who's the arisha of family and of children and of childbirth and many other things. The mountains are associated with the Erisha Obatala, who's associated with good character and strength and having integrity in life. So my whole way of looking at the world and looking at how I am connected to nature changed when I began to practice this spiritual tradition. Because now for me, the river is ocean. I love ocean, So I want to make sure that I don't throw trash in ocean. I want to make sure that I'm aware of where even my fresh water I'm from. I know it doesn't just come from this attack when I turn it on here in my house. I'm a more aware of the sacredness of water and the sacredness of the earth because I am also part of that as well. That's one of the main ways that my spiritual tradition has enhanced my ability to connect with nature because it's part of who I am. There is no disconnect for me. I go and talk to the water. I sit by the water, and I commune with the water, and I find healing and in Christianity, right, you know, we have so many spirituals wade in the water, so it wasn't something that was too foreign for me. I was able to easily connect in with it once I had more of a framework and a context for what water really means and is in my life. How do you share these kinds of things in practice, Like with clients who might come to you, are you introducing them to these concepts? Like what does that look like? One thing about me is that I have a background of public health, and I've worked in public health for twenty five years, so I I come from that perspective when I teach, and I do presentation sens or workshops, and I teach a lot of therapists because a lot of therapists are interested in Okay, how does this work? How can I do this? I first come sort of with evidence based research, and there's a lot out there now showing how deepening our connection to nature is good for our health in many different ways. So I come from a public health perspective, right, And then when I talk about eco spirituality, I will not only bring up Native American spirituality, but I share people know in my life and my public health work, my eco therapy work, that I'm also an initiated priest. So I share basic concepts of a reachar tradition. Not to get people, you know, we don't proselytize in the reachar tradition. It's not to get people to practice, but to just show people, hey, there's a framework here that black and people of color from all over the world have been practiced this tradition. That is something that you can learn even if you don't want to practice the tradition. Anybody can go to the river and pray to ocean and it might help them have a deeper connection. But I really come from a public health perspective. That's where I start when I when I talk about ecotherapy and what eco therapy is, so that people can have you know the basic framework of what this field is before I move into eco spirituality in the Aresa. Okay, So a lot of your work is more in terms of training therapists how to then do some of this work with their clients, right right, So I do. I do a lot of training with therapists, but also people that are not licensed therapists, but people that work with youth. A lot of youth workers coaches, people that may have already been doing some kind of national work but didn't really they didn't call it eco therapy, and so they're interested in how how this can work for their practice and work with their community. When I work with individuals one on one, most of the time they come to me for spiritual healing. So they come to me as they know that I'm gonna reach the priest. And I also I'm a part of a healing collective here in Oakland called the Healing Clinic Collective. For the past five or so years, we do these pop up clinics in different parts of the East Bay where we offer holistic healing for free to the community. So there'll be acupuncturists, massage therapists, that dat us which are healers indigenous healers that are trained in Latin American virtuality and Native healing and arecia people like me. So I'm also part of a collective where I offer spiritual healing through the a Recia traditions. So when people come to me one on one, most of the time they come to me because they know that I'm gonna reach a priest. When people ask me to do ecotherapy work, they know that I've been practicing and writing and teaching and training people for many years around ecotherapy and they're curious um about how that works intersects with my public health work. So, Phoenix, what kinds of things are you currently growing in your garden? It's interesting you say that I'm actually working with the local organization that I love, and I want to put a plug out to them. They're here in Oakland called Planting Justice, and they hire people that are coming out of incarceration and they teach them permaculture and landscaping skills and they also build gardens for people. So they're coming to my house. I just bought a house last year and they in a few weeks and they are gonna help me build my own gardens. So some of the things that I'm growing. Some herbs I'm growing are herbs for respiratory wellness and healing herbs like ment herbs like loud war one. We're in COVID right so I want to be able to have herbs that I can make my own tea s. So you all show people should think about that. We're in the time of a pandemic where it's a respiratory illness. Grow your own herbs so you can have herbs that can help with respiratory illnesses. And I'll send you an email with some of those herbs so people can know. Because growing herbs is easy, you can do it in your kitchen window sill so that you can have herbs or your to strengthen your lungs. I'm also planting some fruit trees. I'm growing kale collared sort of traditional vegetables of my ancestors. And because I'm in the Bay Area, I'm very fortunate. I mean, we can grow anything year round. We have really this Mediterranean type of climate. So those are some of the things that I'm growing, but definitely herbs for respiratory wellness right now are very very very important for us. Also, like me, I live in a part of Oakland called East Oakland that has high rates of environmental toxins. So for me, it's important that I'm taking herbs and supplements to strengthen my lungs because even without COVID, the air is not good. So this is a way for us as black people to take control of our own health. In addition to going to license therapists and doctors, if you have access to insurance, is to grow your own herbs for healing respiratory herbs that are very easy to grow to strengthen your lungs. So do you have any books or websites that you can share for people who maybe want to do a little bit more research on some of the things you've talked about. Sure, a couple of things like two is you know, I'm on a mission to get more black eco therapists. It should not just be me and two other people. This field is growing tremendously feature and health from ten years ago to today. You will see so many articles where doctors are prescribing part prescriptions. So it's an opportunity for more black people to get involved in eco therapy. But what that means, though, Dr Joy, that there are not a lot of resources written by and for us. So one of the things that I am doing is I'm creating a training program for people who want to become eco therapists. Right now, we don't have a standard of practice. Some people are licensed psychotherapists and they just add eco therapy to their practice. But you don't have to be a licensed psychotherapist, but you do need some training. So I'm going to be creating an eco Therapy be certification training where people will have some training so that they can become ecotherapists and create ecotherapy projects in their community. And I'll share that with you in the class notes. A couple of books that I want to recommend. There's one book called The Healing Wisdom of Africa by Molly Domo Samee, who is a healer and a shaman and a priest from Bikini Fassau in West Africa. It's one of the most beautiful books I've ever read, where he connects in how and his tribe and his community, how healing is intimately connected to nature and using the different elements in nature. There's the seminal text on eco therapy that was actually written by one of my mentors, called the intro to ecotherapy, healing with nature in mind. There's a book by a reverend that created a book on black environmental history, not necessarily on ecotherapy, but she has great Diane Glade has great chapters on the history of back women and gardens that goes back many generations. That it is just the most beautiful, most beautiful history that I've ever read. So that people know, you know, miss social media. We come from a long lineage of Black women having gardens to feed our family. This is nothing new. We now have social media where we can get the word out. But in our culture, particularly Black women have been growing and developing unique gardening practices for generations, for generations, and so I think that's very important for people to know as well. Those all sound very interesting. Thank you so much for sharing that. And where can people find you? How can people stay connected with you if they like to get in contact or stay connected on social media, so they can email me, you know my email address. I also have a Facebook page on Equal Soul Eco Therapy for help. And one thing I have to say is that personally, I am trying to disconnect from social media where I'm not on all the time because one of the things we talked about in ecotherapy is the negative impact of too much screen time. And we know definitely how this impacts our children, and like it really impacts our self esteem. It's a great tool to connect with people, but I want you to get offline and get outside. And you know, like for myself, specifically during this time of racial unrest and and and the pandemic, I've had to take I call them social media sabbaticals where at least one day a week I'm not on any social media for my own mental health. So you know, I don't have an Instagram or Twitter. One of my supporters will probably say, I'll do your Instagram for you, because I just don't want to spend that much time on social media. Is too much for my mental health. But there are other ways for people to get in touch with me perfect But we of course will include all of those things in this show notes. Thank you so much for being with us today, Phoenix, I really appreciate it. Oh, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you. Yeah. When we can, we like to close the show with our press Pause moment. This is an opportunity for our community to press pause and engage in activity that they might find restorative or reflective in some way. What's something you'd suggest to those who want to maybe start planting something of their own. I ask people to start with what do you need? What are some of the things that you need. Do you have high blood pressure? Look for herbs that can help reduce high blood pressure. Do you have diabetes? Grow your own medicine and start a relationship with that particular plant. And it may seem foreign to someone. What do you mean start a relationship with the plant? I mean, just like you start a relationship with the person a friendship. You talk to that person regularly, you nurture that relationship. Right, you see that relationship, you remember that person. It's the same concept. It's the same concept on building relationship with plants and start with what you need for your body. It's so empowering when you grow your own food. It's more empowering than money. I have to say the cash to me. Ben Donna Shiva, who is an internationally known teacher, philosopher, eco healer in India. She says, in nature, the currency is life. It's not money, it's life. And so as we see right now, you can have money, but you can still get COVID and you can still die for COVID. And we're seeing that being able to grow our own food, we are seeing places that are don't have access to some types of food because our food chain has been disrupted by this pandemic. It's going to become more and more important for us to start by building our relationship with the land, by growing our own food. It's a very very powerful thing. It also helps us to decolonize our mind you know, we have heard so many stories where children don't know where food comes from. Where did they think corn comes from? Well, how do they think we get chicken? You know, it's really important for us to understand that it's not a grocery store where our food comes from. I live. Farm workers are out there in sweltering heat right now picking grapes, picking ors, picking fruit so that it can go to the grocery store, and they're not getting extra pay for work to learn the pandemic. So, you know, it's really important for us to really open our minds where our food comes from and start doing what we can by growing what our body needs right now where we are. I'm still glad Phoenix was able to share her expertise with us today to learn more about her work or to register for one of her upcoming workshops. Be sure as to visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session one seventy three. Don't forget to share your takeaways with us on social media using the hashtag tv G in session, and please text two sisters in your circle right now and encourage them to check out the episode as well. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into this topic and connect with some other sisters in your area, come on over and join us in the Yellow Couch Collective, where we take a deeper dive into the topics from the podcast and just about everything else. You can join us at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash y c C. Don't forget that if you're looking for a way to end summer on a high note, Cricket Wireless has got just the thing. Get ready for unlimited smiles, unlimited times for your four lines of unlimited data for a hundred dollars a month. Thank you all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take it care, the best, be the best wood