Pregnancy & Postpartum Concerns

Published Sep 26, 2018, 7:00 AM
Today's episode features my conversation with Dr. Kristy Christopher-Holloway, LPC, NCC, DCC, ACS about what life can look like during pregnancy, birth and in the postpartum period.. Dr. Christopher-Holloway and I discussed the growing research around Black women’s experiences giving birth, how the process of giving birth can be traumatic, postpartum depression and how it’s different from the baby blues, and how we can be strong advocates for ourselves in medical settings.

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Welcome to the Therapy for a Black Girls Podcasts, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information, visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. And while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session seventies six of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. Today's episode focuses on what life can look like during pregnancy, birth, and in the postpartum period. For this conversation, I was joined by Dr Christie Christopher Holloway. Dr Christopher Holloway is an adjunct professor and the founder and director of New Vision Counseling Center, a group private practice in Douglasville, Georgia that offers affordable outpatient mental health counseling. She is a licensed professional counselor in Georgia, a National Certified counselor, a distance credential counselor and an approved clinical supervisor. She earned her Bachelor of Science degree in psychology from Louisiana State University, Shreveport, her Master of Science degree from Georgia State University, and her doctoral degree in counselor, education and Supervision from Argosy University, Atlanta. Her research focused on the mental health help seeking experiences of religious or spiritual African American women diagnosed with infertility, as well as the psycho emotional impact of infertility. Her current clinical focus involves working with minority women experiencing infertility and birth trauma, perinatal mood and anxiety disorders, and pregnancy and infant laws. She has worked in settings that include private practice, in home, out patient and residential treatment. Dr Christopher Holloway and I discussed the growing research around Black women's experiences giving birth, how the process of giving birth can be traumatic, postpartum depression, and how it's different from the baby blues, how we can be strong advocates for ourselves in medical settings, and of course, she shared her favorite resources. Please remember to share your highlights from the episode with us on social media using the hashtag TBG in Session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr Christopher Holloway, thank you for having me. I'm to be here. Yeah, I'm really excited we were able to kind of arrange the time to chat because, you know, there has been so much more conversation just about the experiences of black women getting pregnant, having babies, you know, the whole issues related to the maternal death rate, um related to black moms. So it definitely feels like a conversation I want to make sure that we're continuing to have and I know that this is a specialty for you. Yes, absolutely, yeah, So can you start off by talking a little bit about like your perception of like everything that's being shared in the news and like and I'm sure you may have been seeing this in your practice even before it became a news item, right right, absolutely, So I think as I kind of look at it, I pay attention to it, especially with the maternal mortality rates and things like that that's going gone. Part of me gets, you know, a little frustrated, like, gosh, wise is still happening? Why does this disparity still exists? What are we doing about it? Can we do about it? But then the other part of me feel somewhat happy that it is being shared and that it is being talked about, and that you know, light is being shipped on it, and that it's not a matter that's just consistently still being swept under the rug. So I feel torn sometimes in the issue, But you know, I guess if we have to look at it in those terms, just being excited that okay, at least now, maybe this is not something that people can keep acting like doesn't exist or that can be ignored. Yeah, and I'm hoping, you know that we will also see you know, like some kind of task force that that hasn't already started to talk about, you know, both what practitioners could be doing more, but also how maybe we can become better advocates for ourselves. And I know that you do a lot of that with your clients, like helping them to really become advocates for their own like health and stuff. Absolutely definitely teaching them that their voice is super important. They don't advocate for themselves or or know that it's okay to speak up that, you know, sometimes they may be in a setting where they may feel intimidated or feel like they can't speak up. And so letting them know that it's okay and that they deserve that. Yeah, And I think a part of what has scared me to you know, just with the recent conversations. You know, we've heard about Serena Tiamari, Beyonce even has shared, you know, like the difficulties related to pregnancy, and you think about, like with people with this level of resources still having to do so much advocating and saying no, this is you know what I think is going on. You need to check me for this. And it does worry me that, you know, like, Okay, if this is happening to people with this level of resources, what might be happening to people that don't have this level of resource? Absolutely, you know the research that shows that that's like minority when do experience higher rates of maternal mortality. And so not having those resources, are not knowing what to look for or not being heard a lot of time things situations or things that may arise may be kind of shunned all for second guests, and maybe we're thinking, oh, maybe this is just this is just the part of being a new mom, and so it's not really looking to they're not like educated on some of the signs and symptoms, and so, like you're saying, for someone that has such a huge platform or has access to these resources to still feel that kind of way, it definitely does make you think about what may be happening to those people that may not have that access, for who may be in a lower socio economic status situation, and what it is that they're experiencing. So a lot that has come out of the research that's being conducted related to UM, like the maternal death rates UM for black women, is talking about like this whole weathering effect, right that black women have, just like the cumulative stress related to being a black woman in the world. How that may be something that is like contributing to the death rates. And so working with a lot of moms or you know, soon to be moms, how do you in your work help them to kind of manage some of the stressors of just being a black woman in the country. So one of the things that I do is we talk about it, like I give them permission in our sessions to really talk about what that looks like for them, talk about what it means to be a woman, a black woman, and then now a black woman that's about to be a mom, so giving them that permission to really just talk about all of the day to day things that they do and those stressors, and then from there as we kind of get through that and talk about it and they can get it off their chest, because a lot of times we're told to like hold it in, or it doesn't matter, or we you know, we shouldn't complain. It's it's seen as complaining as opposed to talking and getting that support and that help, or sometimes unfortunately they may not have the type of support system that they require or that they really need or deserve. So we get all of that out and then from there, what I really do is educate my mom's on what it may look like, what some eternal mental health issues may look like, how it may present, what they should be on the lookout for, and just really kind of letting them know how it may take shape or how it may take form, and when they need to seek out extra support. If I'm fortunate enough to have their partner, I'll also educate the partner on this too, because sometimes we may not see it, We may be so busy in the hustle of bustle of doing all these other things that we may miss it, and so I'll try to educate the partner or family member or friend or someone like that on what to be on the lookout for as well. So can you share some of those things with us after as Holloway, I mean, I know, one of the big ones that everybody often hears about is postpartum depression. Um, so can you tell us a little bit about like what signs we need to be looking out for there? So first all I tell people is you know, we're you're you're right. We do hear about postpartum depression, but a lot of times what it's left out is postpartum anxiety, postpartum psychosis, postpartum o c V. So a lot of those are left out, And so now women aren't sure what's going on because they've never been educated about it or told about it, or that it even exists. So now they're experiencing this maybe and they don't know what it is, or they're writing it off or they're thinking it's normal. So postpartum depression, though, is what is beyond just the baby blues. So a lot of times you'll hear someone talk about having the baby blues and what that is. It lasts about two weeks post birth, and that's kind of the sadness and things like that, maybe some crime. That's when we're having that huge hormonal shift and so our hormones are all over the place and we're adjusting to being a new mom, adjusting to this great bundle of joy that you may have. And I'm speaking in terms of those who are able or fortunate enough to bring those babies home, because I do also work with pregnancy and infant loss, which is a whole another thing when it comes to postpartum. Postpartum depression is beyond the baby blue. So this is looking more like, Okay, am I losing interests? Am I not connecting with the baby? Am I not eating? Am I getting sleep but not getting rested? You know, like, am I having a hard time with getting sleep? Am I not refreshed? And that's hard sometimes because who is refreshed when you have, you know, a new baby and you're up throughout the night and things like that. So postpartum depression goes way beyond just that baby blue. Sometimes what starts happening is the mom may start experiencing the suicidal thoughts, maybe not active, but just thinking, gosh, I'm not a good mom and maybe uh, you know, the place would be better off without me, or this baby would be better off without me, or don't know what I'm doing. So I kind of educate the moms on that and what that may look like for them, especially if they've already had this prevalence of the Russian prior to conceiving, because sometimes that can increase the risk of experiencing postpartum depression. So I try to educate them and let them know that this is beyond that in this moment. This is like I'm continuously sad, I'm continuously crying, I'm continuously having thoughts that may not be healthy thoughts or that may be very maladaptive thoughts or even scary thoughts to them, And so they get afraid to even talk about it, because then the next thing that happens is they're afraid that someone's gonna come take the baby away or you know, to remove them from the baby, And so then there's this hard time with like talking about what's going on as opposed to just sitting there and kind of grunting and dealing with it. Yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned that, because I don't think we hear enough about like the postpartum psychases, like all of these different things that can happen after the birth of a baby. And I feel like there is so much going on that you often don't know, right, Like even if you're somebody who's strained to know the symptoms, Like there's just so much going on hormonally with your sleep, just like just a whole host of things that can kind of be contributing to you having some issues. It's important, you know, to be able to talk about that and to understand what that looks like, what that may mean, and then what the mom needs to do to get that suppport if she is experiencing some of that. So what I typically do is when I have new moms and they're expecting, we go over all this. I give them like a little checklist or what it looks like for them and to them for their normal, right because everyone's is different, and then some things look for and so after the baby is born, I'm constantly checking in with them because postpartum can also present up to about a year or two after birth. So usually we've been told, oh, you know, six weeks, that's not postpartum, and it is. It can be um. So I let them know that if it's five months down the line and now you're experiencing some things that seem out of the norm for you, like, let's talk about it, because this may be what's going on, got it? So I bet that checklist is handy, especially like you said, for like partners or other supportive friends and family members who can maybe helped to kind of keep an eye on some of those symptoms. Absolutely, absolutely so, Dr Christopher Halloween. Can you talk more about the anxiety pies? Sure? And this is why it's so hard sometimes for new moms and new parents, because again, a lot of it seems extremely normal, like, yes, you're anxious you have this new baby. Yes you're standing over the crib and making sure they're breathing right. Yes, you may be nervous. Am I you know breastfeeding correctly? Am I doing the formula correctly? That I checked their diaper, that I change it? So a lot of times, the anxiety that comes with being a new mom that it looks like post artem could be a lot of increased agitation, a lot of extreme like panic and heart racing, being super alert, constant wordy, constant racing thoughts, there may be heart palpitations or feeling like your heart skipping a beat, may have trouble breathing, and so then you're having like these really extreme moments. Are these extreme episodes sometimes of anxiety and panic, and so it's beyond like, Okay, let me go and check and make sure my baby is breathing. Because if you've had a baby, for instance, that may have been born a little earlier, needed some time and the need you, I think it's very normal as you're adjusting to make sure they're okay. So this is going beyond that. This is I'm worrying all the time. I'm not sleeping, I can't control my thoughts, I can't catch my breath. It feels like I'm having a heart attack, I'm constantly sweating. Like those are some of the symptoms that may present when someone is experiencing some postpartum anxiety. So what kinds of things might you do with the client to help them to manage some of this anxiety? Definitely, so one way identify it. And so one of the things that I do, I'm more of a cognitive behavioral type therapist than what that basically is, is I help clients to understand how their thoughts, their feelings, and their actions or behaviors are all connected. And so one of the things that I'll do is to have them stop and say, Okay, this fear or this worry or this concern that I'm having right now, is it rational? Because it may be extremely rational? Um, And then I'll have them ask and basically say, okay, is there anything that I can do about it? And if there is something they can do about it, then figuring out like how they need to implement that to do something about it. If it's an irrational fear and irrational thought, I'll have them say okay, now, what then do I need to do to help myself? So to speak quiet this fear or quiet this thought. So that may mean I can journal, I to talk to my partner, I can take a nap because a lot of times is due to exhaustion and just being completely tired. I can go and hold the baby if I'm concerned that I'm not breastfeeding correctly or my baby is constantly crying and I starving them. And so then I'll give them facts on breastfeeding and how breastfed babies respond and react and how the mom responds and reacts. So again I'll use a lot of CBT or cognitive behavior of therapy to help them identify their thoughts, to help them understand how it's affecting their feelings and emotions, and then to help them understand how it's affecting their actions or their behaviors, and then basically having them understand. I call it like detective work. And so if you watch a lot of I was Huge online order and right, you know, you get caught up. You know. So typically though, you know, they have to find this preponderance of evidence, right like, they have to find enough evidence to either convict someone or to take it to trial or press charges whatever that is. And so if it's not enough evidence, sometimes they can't move forward. They have to drop the charges or reduce the charges. And so I tell my clients, I want you to be a detective. I want you to get a preponderance of evidence that this right here that you're experience again thinking is a fact. If you can't find any evidence, then this lets us know that this fear we can kind of start working through moving forward from like it's not gonna happen, but you may have some evidence because again maybe your baby did have some trouble and nick you, or you have had some trouble during birth, or you experience loss before infertility before something like that. So then we'll say, Okay, how can we help or how can I help you? Or how can your partner help you? As it relates to having more adaptive thinking or thinking that will be more healthy for you, so that you can connect to this baby and you can attach and that you can you know, be the mom that you were hoping that you would be. So you brought up another thing that I think we should touch on Dr Christopher halloway Um related to breastfeeding, because I do know that oftentimes, like the relationship that you have as the mom with breastfeeding can bring up a lot like if you're doing it right or if for some reason you can't do it but you really wanted to, then does that bring up, you know, some feelings of regret or sadness or guilt for you. Can you talk a little bit about how breastfeeding kind of as another layer to this whole puzzle. Absolutely so, and then that even goes in with education. So breastfeeding can do one of two things. It can really promote this attachment and help the mom because now she's feeling like I'm doing something right. You know, I'm connecting I'm feeding my baby. I may be depressed, I may be sad, I may be anxious. I may not know anything else, but I oh that I can lash this baby to my breast and nourish it and give it everything that it needs. On the flip side of that, you may have someone who has not been properly educated about breastfeeding. And so when I say that, what I mean by that is maybe they don't understand how their milk comes in the process of lactation. They think maybe as soon as I give birth, my milk should be flowing and you know, just running endlessly, and so they're not educated on that. They're not educated on latching the baby or how breastfed babies may feed more off and then babies that are given formula. And so now it's creating again anxiety. It's creating I'm felling my baby. My baby is starving because it's crying, or it's hurting me to breastfeed because maybe they haven't been, you know, shown how to appropriately latch the baby, and so they give up or they decide to you know, not pursue it or it's too much, And so that can bring on some depression and anxiety because as this may be something that they had this expectation of and that they really really wanted to do and to fulfill, but because now they feel like it's not working or they're not successful, or maybe they are successful, they're just not understanding what it looks like. And so this can also increase because now again all of these expectations that I may have had when it comes to breastfeeding my baby is not happening. I'm not nourishing my child. I'm not giving my child what they need for. Sometimes society does this mom shaming, and you'll have folks that are just saying, you know, breast is best. You'll have other folks safe formula, and then you'll have some people in the middle that may safe fed is best and as long as you're feeding your baby and you're giving it what it means. So sometimes the mom can get a little discouraged thinking that she's spelling this baby or letting this baby down, and in turn letting herself down and not meeting all of those expectations that she had set up. As it relates to how she wanted to nourish this baby. And so again I talked with moms about this. I am not a lactation consultant, but I am an advocate, and so I'll talk to mom's about that and then also put them in touch with a lactation consultant or knowing what to request if they're having a hospital birth, knowing what to request so that they can get the education before leaving. And then also maybe some different Facebook support groups or Instagram followings that they can do that can kind of help educate and keep them motivated as they are trying with their breast feeding journey. So, Dr chrisiper Holloway, you mentioned this whole idea of expectations, and I do think, especially as a first time mom, there are a lot of expectations about like what everything is going to be like, and so I know, I know. Another thing that you really work with women on in your practice is related to birth traumas and maybe not having the birth outcomes that they wanted. Can you talk a little bit more about that part of your work. Absolutely, so, yes, I do deal with or work with women experienced birth trauma, and so one of the things that I always say is trauma is in the eye of the beholder. It is not on mean to tell someone that they weren't you know what, the experience was not traumatizing. But birth trauma can look like perhaps you were wanting to have a natural vaginal birth and you now had to be maybe at a hospital or with a doctor or somewhere that I didn't understand your birth plan or wasn't aware of your birth plan. Um it can look like you have been preparing this entire time for a vaginal birth, and because babies do it, they do maybe it flips, or it turns, or you know, maybe there's heart rate acceleration or something that's putting you in the baby at risk. And so now you're having the csarian section that you were not prepared for. It's an emergency csian, so you know the things that go along with that. Maybe you know, I've I've watched a video where a doctor was saying, you know, I'm just gonna yank baby out of you. And so that's traumatic because you are at the most vulnerable state. Your legs are up, you know, your who has out, and it's a lot going on, and so you don't know what to do, so that was very traumatizing or that mom. And so I work with moms and helping them kind of understand that, Okay, this may be your birth plan, but these are some things that may come up that we may need to deal with. And sometimes I don't get that opportunity to do that because maybe I've gotten a mom who's come in now because of birth trauma, and so it can look like I had the healthy pregnancy all of a sudden, my water broke at thirty weeks and I had no idea, they couldn't stop anything, and now I have this two pound baby that I was not prepared for, and I'm struggling. I'm afraid, and I don't know how to connect to this child. Um, I don't know what to do. Am I gonna be a good mom with maybe a Nike baby? Do I know how to handle them? Are they gonna be say if in the car seat? And so I work with moms to kind of help them with that and what that experience may look like. And then you know, if any post traumatic stress develops from that, even working through the trauma of this unplanned earth that they weren't expecting. Yeah, it definitely feels like, you know, there's just so much that's out of your control, right, Like you can be planning for whatever it is you think you want the birth to be, and then you just don't know, like you said, because the babies do what they do and it's just kind of all unexpected. Yes, yes, And so for some women it's not traumatizing. They just say, okay, you know, as long as my baby is here and healthy. And for others, because sometimes of those expectations or prior experiences, like I said, maybe loss or things like that, it can be very traumatizing for them, and it you know, it just has to be worked through, right, right. So, I know another thing that will often come up and I know that neither us as psychiatrist, so we're not gonna dive too deep into medication stuff, but it does often come up that you know, clients may need to start medication um either maybe towards the end of a pregnancy or soon after a pregnancy to help them manage some of the symptoms related to like postpartum depression or anxiety. Can you talk a little bit about like maybe some general things clients have kind of commented about after you know, starting medication or the discomfort of maybe wanting to start medication. Yes, definitely, and so you're right. Sometimes it is needed because maybe the depression or the anxiety or whatever, you know, mood disorder is happening. It may be so intense that it's difficult for us to get far in treatment because how deep it's running. And so sometimes medication is suggested and recommended. And sometimes there may be apprehension because maybe this person has had a completely natural lifestyle or natural earth, or is not really into medications and psychotropic medications as they say, our mind altering or brain altering rather medicines. And so what I have to do is talk with them about at this point the risk and the benefit to take in it, and just reminding them that this may not be something that's long term. It's just to help, you know, help you get through this hump, get over this hump. Sometimes there's apprehension about taking the medication because they are breastfeeding and they don't want it to be transferred to the baby. And so there are medications that are acceptable or that are okay when it comes to breastfeeding, and of course there are some that are not, and so I encourage the mom to definitely talk with the psychiatrists as well as there, you know, if they had an obie or their midwife or nurse practitioner in conjunction with me, so that we can figure out maybe the best treatment, the best medicine, and then maybe putting hopefully some type of guide or expectations or just the plan in place on maybe how long this may be needed, with the understanding that maybe it may need to be needed a little longer, or maybe you know, as if we start seeing that progress and their coping skills or back to where it needs to be in their support system is there and they're talking and they're attending therapy, that it may not be as long. But when it comes to situations where if mom does not get on some medication that is going to be harmful to her, the baby, or you know, anyone in the family, then it's kind of almost like, look, the benefits of you getting on right now will greatly outweigh the risk of you not being on. Yeah, And that is often like difficult conversations to have, you know, for for a lot of the reasons that you just named right right, So, what are some of the other things that you do Dr Christopher Holloway with moms um, you know, just kind of working through this whole period of you know, like welcoming a baby, a new baby or you know, a sibling now into the family, to kind of help them to you know, make sure they're taking care of their mental health right. So in addition to educating them on and so I used the term you know normal because it's very relative to the person. In addition to educating them on their normal and what things look like for them, we talk about putting a support system in place. Sometimes the internet can be great and other times it can be very devastating, So we talk about what that may look like for them. And so their support system may include certain groups or you know, certain websites, and sometimes it may not. We may have to completely except. But we talk about how your friends and family can support because sometimes you know, as new moms, we want to figure it all out. We want to do it. Always say well, no manual comes and you know, this is my baby, let me do this and figure it out. So being able to say how can you reach out for that support? What are some things that we can put in place so your family knows that maybe you need some support if they have access to it. I recommend adula um that can kind of beat a postpartum doulah who can be there um after birth and helping them and helping around the house and making sure mom is eating, because unfortunately in America, in our country, sometimes we don't get afforded six eight, you know, twelve plus weeks of maternity leave, and then the father may not get paternity leave. You know, you may not have a mom or a sister or a sibling or someone that can be around to help you. And so sometimes having adula there to help and make sure that mom is eating, helping hold the baby so mom can take a quick shower or a quick nap is extremely beneficial. And if they don't have access to that. Been talking about how can your partners support you? How can free and support you? What are some code words that we can put in place so people will know that you need help. I encourage my clients to give themselves permission, and that permission may look like whatever it is that you need permission for in that moment, So giving yourself permission to breathe, maybe the type of birth that you thought you were going to have, or given yourself permission to breast feed uncovered without a care in the world, you know, or given yourself permission to take a nap, given yourself permission to co sleep if that's what you do, given yourself permission to have the type of birth that you want. So if that's a natural birth, that's a home birth, if that's a birth and a birthing censer, if that's a hospital birth, if that's a medicative birth, just whatever permission that's needed, because that's very free for a lot of people. And so I try to do a lot of work with that and putting that plan in place so that way when it comes to the nitty gritty and baby is here and it seems like the whole world been flipped upside down, but they all have this and they can refer back to it and say, Okay, this is what I need or I don't have to portray being the strong, got it all together mom in this instance, I can say no, I need help with this, or can you do that? And so if mom is breastfeeding, maybe the partner can change the diapers or changed clothing, so that way you know they're both having um this time with this baby and bonding with the baby mom not feeling like everything is on her. So that's some of the stuff that I try to do. And again, if they don't have a huge support system and maybe there's not a partner there, maybe they've chosen to be a single parent, just still talking about what that may look like for them. Yeah, those are all sounds like some really great tips, you know, for anybody who is in the throws of this process. Are preparing for this process absolutely, because you don't know really, you know that. I was telling someone other day that and I had all the what to Expect when expecting books. I had every last one of them. I even saw one of what to expect when you have a teenager. But at the end of the day, you can read those and have those and it can give you some common knowledge, but nothing's going to prepare you until you were here in the throes of it and dealing with it right right. So what are some of your favorite resources, act Christopher Holloway. Some of the things you find yourself recommending to your clients pretty frequently. Yes, So when it comes to just what's going on with you know, the baby and what's happening. One of the apps and there's also a book, but I I, you know, sometimes we don't have time to be reading books. One of the apps that I definitely recommended was the Wonder Weeks app or the book, but it basically tells you everything that's going on with baby up until I think. I think it goes up to it may go up to two years is old. I know it goes up to a year old, but it talks about developmental leaps that the baby maybe having or that may be approaching, so to help you understand, Okay, why is baby so fusty or why is this happening? Why isn't this working? And it just worked last week. So I definitely recommend the Wonder Weeks app because I think, I know for me having twins, it just gave me a whole lot of information that I needed and helped me understand like, oh, okay, that's what's going on. So I definitely recommend that for moms who are just dealing with these expectations that they have that have now been slapped with reality. There's a great book that I recommend called This Isn't What I Expected. Another one is Life Will Never Be the Same, And it's just basically talking about postpartum and what that looks like, and having just a resource for you know, moms to read and understand like I'm not the only one in the world that's experienced this. And although they know that, sometimes it can feel very isolating, and again we can get caught up in our mind and in our thoughts and feel like I'm the only one that's dealing with this, or you know, why didn't I breastfeed longer sheep breast fit, or why didn't I do this? And why didn't I baby wearing? Did I mess them up? And am I attaching? Am I abundant to this baby? And my horrible mom my baby was in the nick you and I wasn't able to be there for the first two, three, five, ten weeks? You know, did I damage my child? And so it just helps with all of that. So those are some of the great resources that I recommend. Perfect and where can we find you online? Your website as well as any social media handles you'd like to share. Absolutely so. The website site is www dot New Vision Counseling Center dot com and on Facebook you can find um the company as well on at New Vision Counseling Center as ill on Facebook. You scent, yes, ma'am okay perfect, and all of that information will be included in the show notes so people can find you easily. Awesome, perfect Well, thank you so much for sharing with us today, Dr Christopher Holloway. I really appreciate it. Thank you, thank you for having me, and hopefully this has helped some women out there and even you know, partners out there who may be trying to figure out what's going on and help help that new mom in their life. Right absolutely, I'm so thankful Dr Christopher Holloway was able to share her expertise with us today. To check out the resources she shared and to learn more about her practice, visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session seventies six, and please make sure to share your takeaways from this episode in your I G stories are on Twitter. Be sure to use the hashtag tb G in session so that we can find them and share them. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to visit the therapist director at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory, and don't forget to check out the Therapy for Black Girls store to grab yourself a T shirt or a mug to show your love for the podcast. You can shop at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash shop. And if you want to continue this conversation and join a community of other sisters who listen to the podcast, join us over in the Thrive tribe at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Tribe. Make sure you answer the three questions that are asked to gain entry. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week, and I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care actor Actor

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