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While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y'all, thanks so much for joining me for Session one seventy two of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. If your Instagram fee looks anything like mine, for months, you've probably been seeing tons of beautiful assists in their homes surrounded by lots and lots of luscious green plants. It seems like many of us have found solace in plants and other connections to nature in the past couple of months, so we wanted to dig into what's driving this for us. In this episode, we're sharing two perspectives on a growing field of psychology called nature the therapy or eco therapy. First up is my conversation with Beth Collier. Beth is in private practice as a nature allied psychotherapist and rights on nature, health and race. She specializes in working with relational trauma in our connections with people and nature. Beth and I discussed what eco therapy is, why so many of us have turned to plants, the psychological benefits of being connected to nature, and steps we can take to repair our relationships to nature. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Viv Thanks so much for inviting me. It's really great to be able to join you here from London. Although I'm sat in the woodland so I don't really feel I'm I'm in the city at the moment. Yeah, so of course the listeners can't see you, but you are. You have a very picturesque background, so I'm at peace just looking at your background out there in the woodlands. We are lucky, although a lot of people see London is one of the world's major cities, that it's still got a huge amount of green space where we're lucky to have lots of parks, but also woodlands too, very close and accessible. Mm hmmm. So, Beth, I'm happy you were able to join us because I'm not sure how active you are on social media, but definitely since March, you know, since the pandemic really hit, I've just been observing lots and lots of pictures of plants all across the social media feeds. It seems like lots of people have been getting into buying house plants for their homes, planting gardens, you know, just really doing a lot with greenery. And so I'd like to hear just from you your thoughts about why that's happening, Like why do you feel like people are turning to things like plants and gardening right now? Yeah, nature has this wonderful capacity to soothe us and to help us feel grounded. And I think a lot of us have turned to nature to help us get through some very stress for anxious times during the coronavirus period and lockdown in particular, for many of us that have had um policies where we've had to stay indoors most of the time and we can't go out and access our usual green spaces, than bringing nature indoors has been the next best thing. So I think people have been turning to nature for release. It's been a wonderful focus having plants to tend to and care for, but also feel the benefit of being around plants which uplift us that make us feel calm. Yeah, and I know a lot of your work is in nature therapy, So can you tell me more about what that is and how you became so passionate about their practice. Yes. So I grew up in the countryside in the UK, which for a person of color is quite unusual. The only two percent of people of African descent live in the countryside in the UK, and so my childhood spent roaming the fields, playing outdoors, learning about nature and how it I could meaningfully interact with it. So, for example, the more I knew about edible plants, the less I had to go home to to get something to eat. So nature became a very meaningful relationship up for me um And when I moved into the city, I realized that not everybody saw nature as normal, that there had been a real disconnection where I opened my door and I was surrounded by nature. For a lot of people, they have to make an effort to go out and find the natural world, and not everybody has the kind of connections which make that possible, whether it's they don't have parents that take them, or they find that green spaces aren't accessible in the areas that they live. So my journey into nature was through seeing how for many people there was a distance between them and the natural world. And I've been working with a young boy who was at risk of falling into trouble with gangs, and we were working traditionally indoors in a room, and nothing seemed age appropriate for him. The toys were too young. He was someone that presented with a lot of bravado, even though he was only about ten eleven, but he wasn't ready for face to face eye contact. And it made me think back to my days as a child and having natural spaces and being able to roam, and how that so out a lot of energy, and how it allows us to process things that we're feeling. And I wondered what it would be like if I took our work outside. It didn't actually happen with that child, but it did with others in a similar situation. And from there I started to offer my adult clients the opportunity to work outdoors too, And the transformation was sort of self evident that when we change our environments and we're able to express ourselves differently, we realized that much of the things we're experiencing our to do with the external environment we're in, not just our own inner internal worlds. And so what is it about being in nature that you feel like help people to kind of run their perspective? So I think there's something in introducing the idea that there is a relationship to be had with the natural world, that just like our parents and our siblings, the quality of our relationship with nature will have an impact on our well being. I described nature as offering that the core conditions of the ideal primary care giver. But nature is a judgmental nature is available. Nature makes us feel supported and confident and by able by offering those qualities, Nature is able to offer us a positive attachments and we can find secure base by being in nature. And that's a wonderful thing to be able to access, to feel safe, to process other feelings regarding our human social relationships. But I am just fascinated by this. I mean, because you describe your work as really focusing on the relational trauma in our connections with people in nature, and I consider myself someone also who really helps clients to work with those relational traumas and attachment pieces that may have kind of gone awry, And so I love how you're talking about using nature to do that. Can you talk more about how you are helping people to work through some of these relational traumas through the use of nature. Yes, So let me just wide in the context a little bit. So I'm a nature allied psychotherapy, which means I see all my clients in natural settings in parks and woods, and as well as exploring human social relationship, that's the opportunity to explore relationship with nature. Another part of my work is with wild in the city and we offer experiences in woodland living skills like foraging, wildlife identification, and also ecotherapy and hiking. So I'm opening up the space just too up trauma and people of color in particular. So one of the things we do with wild in the City is to help people rebuild the oral tradition back into relationship with nature, and we do this by coming together to experience the natural world, and for many people it's a process of discovery about the plants and the wildlife in the UK. In our history of migration to the UK, we often experienced hostility for many people of color in the UK. There was a large period of migration in the fifties and sixties, and the hostility we counted, which tended to be in cities, meant that many people felt unsafe to venture off into the countryside and more remote areas, and so relational bridge into the natural world was disrupted, and rather than feeling safe and welcome in natural spaces, there was a cultural pattern of feeling unsafe and that it wasn't for us. So a lot of what we're doing in with Wildernest City is bringing people together, gathering, particularly around the fire, and reflecting about what our relationship with nature has been and looking at the interruptions the human interference that has meant being in nature doesn't feel safe and trauma is a big part of that work in understanding the loss that has been experienced in not having access to nature is this wonderful, nourishing resource that helps us to feel good, but also that the means by which we came to be separated from nature often stemming from a human interference and a trauma within that. Wow, that is fascinating. I loved it. I don't know that I've heard anybody well here in the US, though it may exists, I'm not heard of other people practicing in this way. So I'm wondering for people who may be interested in exploring some of this, like what kinds of things might they look for in terms of like searching for a therapist, Like what are some key terms they might google? Like how might they connect with someone like you? Yes? So other common terms for this kind of worker things like ecotherapy simply outdoor therapy, nature therapy. There are other parallel practices like forest bathing, taking advantage of the wonderful health properties particularly within woods and amongst trees. They're also wilderness experiences. So if you were to look at wilderness therapy or wilderness retreats, got it okay? And I'm wondering if you can say more just about how we're psychologically impacted by this disconnection that we've had from nature. How does that maybe show up in our lives. Yes, I'll answer that the long way around by talking about what nature does for us, and then we can see what we miss when we aren't connected. I think for many of us, although I've talked about some fears anxieties, when we're in nature, we feel a lot of positive feelings. We feel uplifted, we feel more relaxed, we feel calmer, there's a sense of contentments and perhaps a sense of belonging to something bigger than us. And neuroscience is showing some amazing things that these aren't just subjective feelings, that something's very real is happening to our physiological system. So, for example, I'm sat now in this woodland surrounded by trees, and these trees are releasing a chemical called fight on side, and it's part of their defense system against bacterial and viral attack. And this chemical also has a positive impact on our own both of our nervous systems that they soothe and calm both the sympathetic and ap parasympathetic nervous system. So that's going to help sleep, our rest our, digestion, it's going to make us feel calmer, it's going to help regulate our natural rhythms. So just by being in a space, we get a lot passively from nature. The neuroscience also shows, for example, that when we're in green spaces, areas of the brain associated with love and empathy are activated, and that's in contrast to gray concreted areas, where areas of the brain associated with anger, fear, and stress are activated. So there's a very real difference between what happens to our physiology when we're in green spaces. So talking about what we lose when we come into a city space, we've got the sounds, the noise, the smells, so many signs, other people, lots of things demanding our attention, and this can feel like a real assault on our nervous system, and our body can react as if we're in fight or flight. Are adrenal intends to be higher, we have higher levels of cortisol breathing on, our heart rate goes up, so there's something very stressful about being in city spaces. And if you've lived in a city or your life without access a relationship with nature, you might not even be aware that you're living in a more heightened adrenalized state than if you live more rurally or have closer connection to the natural world. Yes, so so just being outside and like you said, you know, we know the feeling that you get sometimes when you just like allow the sun to hit your face, or you know that you can just feel really grounded by being in touch with nature. Absolutely, so we're already and I think it's the same in America, but certainly in the UK. People of color are more likely to live in cities and urban areas if that environment is already more stressful, already an assault that we experienced as a trauma, fight or flight being activated. Let alone, all the other things were experiencings of people of color, but the trauma of racism, the stress of navigating social life and professional life as a person of color. Then it adds it's a part of our systemic experience of racism and trauma to be disconnected from the natural world. I'm wondering if you can say more about that, But I mean because on the part of guest, we talk a lot about generational trauma and it sounds like that is what you are referring to as well. And I had no thought about like the ways that we have been kind of pushed out of green spaces as a continuing legacy of it. Can you say more about that? Absolutely? So I touched on in the UK our experience of migration. I should say there have been people of colorme in UK for centuries, but in more recent years are larger migration as communities has been twentieth century, and when we came over to the UK, we tended to gather in cities for the support, to have a sense of community, to be able to meet our needs. It's where the jobs were, and just in setting up our lives we encountered a lot of hostility. It was very common, for example, for housing to have signs which said no Blacks, no dogs, no Irish. So just finding our feet, finding basics like accommodation was a struggle. And faced with that kind of racism in city context where there are larger numbers of people of colors already unpleasant and hostile, the idea of going more remotely where there are fewer people of color becomes intimidating and generationally so depending on your age, grandparents or parents passed down the message of you know, don't go out of fear, wanting to protect and keep people safe. And there are many people that have had that message passed down to them that this isn't for us or even you know, this is for white people. And I think in our culture that that kind of message that nature isn't for us is quite common. I mean, some of my favorite comedians have pieces about, you know, how ridiculous it is to want to camp or to go into nature. You know, why on earth would you want to do that. I think that that's a reflection of a rationale that does exist within black communities. And for me, this is a sign. It's a coping mechanism. It's a sign of being able to cope with the disconnect that actually is really hurtful. It's harmful, and obviously a very common way of coping with the loss of something is to disparage it, to say, well, I didn't want it anyway. You know, it's dirty, it's boring, why would I want to go? And I think that this thread within our culture, which can sometimes dismiss nature is a part of protecting ourselves from a hurt, from the loss of something that doesn't quite feel safe and easy to access. M So, do you have any ideas and maybe strategies that you've used in your own work for how people can reclaim these spaces. Yes, so, particularly drawing from my work with Wild in the City, I think being together as a group has been really healing and reparative. Obviously, there aren't a large number of us that do enjoy nature in the natural world, and I'm aware in the US you've got amazing groups like Girl Trek and Outdoor Afro. I'm not meaning to suggest that we're not in these spaces, but for many of us that do enjoy nature, we often find we're the only one in a group, and we're having to work through being the only one. Sometimes microaggressions, other things that create a barrier to just be able to relax and enjoy. Men tell me that they're often made to feel that they are a possible threat, and so they're modifying their behavior in natural settings, and all of these things become a barrier to their own enjoyment that they're having to think about other people and change their behavior to make others feel at ease. So there's something about being in a group of people of color which means we can let go of a lot of that and just have that direct connection to the natural world and have time to to sit, to talk, to connect and talk about what our experiences have been, what our family experiences have been, but also particularly to explore our very rich culture of relationship with nature from our countries of heritage. I think that's the great irony that in our countries of heritage, whether that's Africa or the Caribbean, we tend to have a really deep connection with the natural world and it's being lost on our migration to the West. Mm hmmm. Do you have any suggestions there for people who may struggle with like outdoor allergies. Yes, there's a difficult one. I it's it's such an unfair thing if you are wanting to spend time in nature or enjoy nature and you have allergies, and that feels like a barrier. I mean that there are sort of remedies. People were commend eating local honey physically. People also recommend colonics and enemas to address allergies, but I think also thinking about time of day, there might be a time of day whether there are less allergens which affect you, or trying to to work out are there particular trees or plants that are triggering this and finding habitats that are more comfortable for you. Are there additional barriers to kind of getting into this work or practicing this work besides allergies that you can think of. I don't think so. I think for some people, apprehension about being in nature can itself be a barrier. But just like many of us when we're approaching therapy, there can be something that makes us anxious or cautious. I think nature brings its own triggers for some people, for example, bugs, dogs, other aspects of wildlife that might be encountered, And just like you would in any other part of therapy, that's something that can be talked through, either in advance or it becomes part of the work that you're doing together in a session, is to explore that anxiety, all that fear. Mm hmmm. So I would imagine, like many things, the coronavirus has changed what your work looks like. I mean, I know, you know a lot of us have been encouraged to just stay indoors at this point, and so I think it's difficult to navigate, you know, wanting to be outside for some benefit with also the concerns about safety in health. I'm curious to hear what you're seeing and how maybe it's impacted your work. Yes, so one of the wonderful benefits of being outdoors is perhaps a safer way of meeting face to face that there's less risk. And so some of my work has been able to continue being socially distant but still together in our natural setting. But also the great use of technology zoom allowing sessions to go ahead where I'll be in my nature spots and my client will be in theirs. So we are separate, but the client's still able to access all those those benefits of being in the natural world. And they fed back to me that of how powerful that's been. They haven't lost nature as their therapists. Even though we're not together as humans, they still feel the benefit of nature as their co therapist. So I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit more about what kinds of things you're doing with your clients in terms of helping them, say, get engaged with nature. Yes, so as a psychotherapist, nature is our location for where we meet. But it's also potentially a relationship that's further developed. But that's something that will be It will depend on our clients individual connection with the natural world. For some we we don't particularly go very deep because that's not what they're looking for. Much like when people come to traditional indoor therapy, there will be some areas they want to explore more than others. There will be some resistances they feel ready to face and some they won't. So as well as being a wonderful location, nature can be or and is very active within the therapy. So as I mentioned, nature is a co therapist. It's not just me there as a human therapist. And I say co therapist because nature is able to reflect back a mirror to us feelings, emotions, and patterns in our experiences. There can be incredible synchronicity as you move through a space of wildlife interacting of the sun shining off leaves, of the wind suddenly picking up that speaks to clients, that helps reflect back something they may have been feeling. It never ceases to amaze me that the timing of nature the clients speaking about something difficult and feeling oppressive, and the wind will come in and sort of really blow on us, and the client will smile and say, you know, see, I told you, you know, I'm feeling things are against me. There's a wonderful mirroring that nature can offer as well as being a co therapist. Nature is an incredible dynamic container. She's always changing. So our therapy room never looks the same, it never sounds the same, and it never smells the same. It's a really rich space to work in, whether we're meeting in the middle of the day under a bright blue sky, or whether we're having a session in the evening with the stars and the moon and the different sounds that you get during the nighttime. So nature is the co therapist, it's the dynamic container, it's the therapy room. But also, as I mentioned, my works very much based an attachment theory and to promote that we have an attachment to the natural world, just as we have an attachment to our parents, our siblings, our work colleagues, and the quality of that attachment can change. We can develop and nurture our relationship with nature to feel that positive sense of attachment and that secure base in the natural world, and for many people, experiencing the intimacy with the natural world can become a roadmap for experiencing and nurturing intimacy within human relationships. I'm sure lots of your listeners that have been on their own therapeutic journey might recognize perhaps initially feeling a bit lost or uncertain, you know, where is this going to take me? Um, There's a lot that's unknown about the process, and sometimes you just have to sort of let go and trust. And when you look back, you can see how you can't always control what's going to come up or which way things are going to go, but you can realize moments where you were brave and you went with it. Because some clients they have that experience first with the natural world, developing that relationship, so then when they contemplate looking at perhaps a painful relationship within their human relationship, they already have a roadmap for these challenges, the twists and the turns, and how it's going to feel. So it's it feels safer and less daunting to touch on those more uncomfortable feelings. Nice, and I can imagine it also is kind of like a great projective space so to speak, right, I mean, because you know somebody sees a leaf falling or something and then they can talk about like things that they're triggers for them in their lives. Right, So period, dine, Yes, there's a wonderful creativity. So we might stop and just observe and look at something in nature or client, I want to use materials within nature to explain something to me. Remember one clients really welcoming the opportunity to draw out how he experienced his psychosis using leaves. They were all tunnel leaves, really bright colors, and it was the first time he had had the opportunity to really describe and depict such a visceral experience. He used the natural world to do that. Um. I can think of another client who was expressing real frustration and anger with her mother in particular, but her family who she felt neglected by. Just as we were walking past the lake and there was a female mallard being pursued by three chicks who are desperately trying to keep up with her but not not quite managing to do so. And my client went, there you go a bad mother, and was able to use that visual metaphor in front of us to really feelings of frustration. She was feeling about being abandoned, about being left behind. Wow, thank you for sharing it. I appreciate it. So what are your hopes for the future of nature therapy? Where do you feel like the field is going. It is an emerging field but increasingly in demand. So I also offer training for psychotherapists and other well being professionals in nature allied psychotherapy. This is a modality of therapy that I've fearies based on my own practice. I've been working in nature for over eight years now, and it's a modality for ongoing client work in natural spaces. There are therapists working in nature, but not necessarily in an ongoing way, so it might be more one off experiences or shorter group work. But my work happens continually in an ongoing relationship in nature, just as you might do indoors. So I offer CPD short training and also a diploma, a year long diploma in nature allied psychotherapy, and this is something I'd like to develop so psychotherapists can do their entire training journey within nature, Whereas at the moment most people are training traditionally for indoor modalities and then sort of topping up afterwards. So my plan within the next three years is to have a training program so you can start from day one immersed in the woods within a nature based practice. Nice and where can people connect with you, Beth for what are some your websites as well as any social media handles if you'd like to share them. Yes, So, my private practice website is best Collier dot co dot UK. You can also find some of my writings on that site. And for training courses, it's the Nature Therapy School, and then for interest in wild in the City it's it's www dot wild in the City dot org dot UK. The Nature Therapy School is Nature Therapy School dot com. And my my personal addresses Beth Collier dot co dot UK. Perfect, and we'll be sure to include all of those in the show notes. Thank you so much, Beth. I appreciate you joining us today. Thanks so much for inviting me. It's been a pleasure to be with you. Thank you, Thank you. Next, I chatted with Dr Jennifer Roberts, who is an assistant professor of kinesiology at the University of Maryland School of Public Health in College Park. Her research focuses primarily on the impact of our built environments and some of the ways programs are being developed to improve our access to nature within our city environments, including medical prescriptions for nature and other outdoor activities. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr Roberts. Definitely, I'm really thrilled to be here chatting with you. Yeah, So can you start by just talking with us about your research with Phoebe and what you're seeing in terms of built in environments and how they impact our health and well being. Sure. So I kind of entered this field. I like to call it active living research because a lot of times when I say built environment, people are like, well, what are you talking about? So when I say active living research, I characterized as seeing how the spaces that we live in can either promote or not promote our ability to be physically active. Physically active, whether that's recreational going to a park and playing with your kids, or even like active transportation, which is transporting yourself by walking or biking or skateboarding or any of those things. And so I entered this kind of pivot in my research or my career about ten years ago. And so I wanted to kind of do this research to focus on the impact of built but also social and now I've kind of moved into natchural environments and see how those environments can really impact our public health by way of physical activity. And I particularly like to focus on adults and youth, but also kind of really highlighting marginalized communities. And so a lot of the times I've looked at, you know, whether there's a presence of sidewalks, whether there's adequate lighting, whether there's parks nearby, in a nutshells, just kind of like, what are the features of that built environment, of that neighborhood, of that community that can encourage us to get out and move. But then you can't really just look at that, you know, in a vacuum. You have to think about the social environment. So, for example, I had to study my Physical Environment and Active Transportation study, which I typically called PETE, and I did some focus groups of some adolescent kids, and most of them were youth of color, and many of them, you know, we're sharing experiences about how they've experienced microaggressions or anxiety and walking or taking public transportation in certain spaces because of their you have to really think about It's not just about is there enough lighting, is there sidewalks, but is it a safe space for particularly people of color to engage in physical activity? You know, I always give the example of Trey La Martin was engage in active transportation on his way back home, and we see what happened with him. So we have to also consider the social environment and not just the build environment. Yes, and you know, I think that it's so impactful to think about like all of the different ways that we can really kind of approach adplicacy work, right. You know, so even with that example of Trayvon Martin, you know, you wouldn't necessarily think that your area of study would kind of intersect, but it does. It does. I get so excited because a lot of the conferences and the venues that I go where the act of living researchers are, we are very kind of myopic, you know. We're like, oh, there's sidewalks, so there's parks, and we get very much into using you know, g I s to see whether or not if the park is within a half mile, because if a bus stop is within like you know, a half mile, because then people are more likely to go to it so we can really zoom in on that aspect, which is great, But then a lot of times, most recently in the last past few years, I've actually been bringing this other layer, looking at well, it's great if we have the best built environment, but what if that's not the best social environment for some of us. And so when I've given talks, it's kind of opened the door to people seeing this other aspect of active living research. And so I do like what you say, really, you know, enjoy when I can see that intersection of the different disciplines. M Can you talk more about any of the research maybe you've done or seen that talks about particularly black women being disconnected from nature and maybe some of those societal factors that have impacted that. It's interesting that you say that because as a whole, there's been this kind of belief that black people in general are just disconnected from nature, and some of the reasearchs that has been done has shown that that's not necessarily the case. There are black people out there who want to engage in nature, who want to be a part of nature, and it's not just a sense that, oh, you know, this is something only for a white space. So for the white community, and so I think some of the issues around that have to look at whether or not these spaces are inclusive, you know. And a lot of this work has been done by a Dr. Georgetta Taylor at the University of Michigan, and she's looked at this whole ideal of this disconnect of black people from from nature. But most recently I actually came across some work from a Dr Melanie Harris. She's an associate professor of religion at a Texas Christian University in Fort Worth, and she's actually really looked at this whole kind of like well, first this nature being sacred, but this kind of like really and she uses this ideal of eco womanism, which really it has its underpinnings in an environmental justice paradigm. So basically environmental justice meaning that you know, it's not random that there's certain areas where there's more environmental pollutants, there's more environmental pollutants and more empowershed areas, and more areas that are inhabited by black and brown folks. So it's this whole idea of using that paradigm to understand that there are more areas where black and brown people live that happened to be environmentally toxic communities. But then they move forward in looking at this kind of eco womanism and then links into this whole acknowledgement that we are connected, humans are connected to non humans as well as there's strong links between women, spirituality and nature. And it's just like this really wonderful kind of I don't want to say theory, but paradigm of looking at the connection between particularly women enough color, particularly African American women, and nature. And she presents a lot of is using a lot of the literary works of Alice Walker, who is a naturist, let alone one of the best authors out there, And she uses a lot of the literary works from more specifically her work from the Color Purple to show that there's always been that connection between Africans and African American people and nature. So to have this kind of narrative now that we are disconnected, it's I don't want to say, partly self imposed. It's completely skewed by the fact that it's that it's been imposed on us by other people. And I guess I should say and so I think this whole ideal of looking at nature as us being kind of intrinsic to us since the beginning is important to acknowledge. I mean, even if when you look back at old slave narratives, there was always this kind of connection and discussion about acknowledging you know, nature, nature as a source of knowledge, as a source of you know, getting to the north. It's just always a part of us. And so I think, you know, saying that we're not connected is really just a disservice to the fact that it's always been a part of us as a people. Mm hmm. Yeah, it goes back to your earlier comment that you know, some of the disconnection has come from it not always feeling safe or you know, we have not been included in these spaces, right And even still, you know, there's so many other layers that go into this in the sense that you know, you think about the ideal of some places, there's this whole white privilege of like, well, this is my space, so wait, what are you doing here? How do you know about this space? You know, and kind of this like why are you in this green space? Why are you here? And so sometimes you know, I think we as Black Americans, African Americans, however, you want to self identify. We sometimes self imposed and say, well, you know, well, hiking is not for us, or going out, you know, mountaineering is not for us, not realizing no, it is for us just as much it is for anybody else. And we have a right to be there and enjoy the beauty and what we can get out of nature, just like anyone else. So yeah, so I think that's it's important to acknowledge that. Yeah, And do you have any tips for people who may be kind of stuck there? Well, from one think that nature is for you, and it may be not. One person's exposure to nature may not be the same type of exposure that you may need for nature. And I think it's one of those things that you have to maybe take baby steps. Sometimes it's just a matter of just like going out your front porch, sitting on your front porch for maybe like ten minutes and just kind of absorbing just the sounds. You know. It's particularly you can do this very early in the morning where it's just you know, you just have this like orchestra of nature, whether it's the bird or the wind or whatever, and just taking those baby steps. You know, I don't see necessarily go and try and climb and do these long trucks and hikes, but just take that or maybe if you feel unsafe doing that. There's wonderful ways that you can get nature without having to absorb all the elements of nature. And what I mean by that is, you know, when you are in a green space, you can see these maybe like wonderful natural landscapes, you can hear the animals, you can smell, you know, the flowers, you can feel the breezes. But you can still you know, get the therapeutic benefits of nature without having to get all of those elements. So maybe you just you know, downloaded YouTube click and it's funny, I says. I was just visiting my mom last week and she was like, I found the greatest video on YouTube, and I'm thinking to move yourself. She's like, no, it's just a sound of birds. She's like, sometimes I will just listen to this, and it does work. If you just close your eyes for a minute, you just listen, you can absorb that aspect of nature. You know, with some great noise canceling headphones, you can really just kind of soaped in. There's also videos. I mean, I love watching documentaries and animals. So that right there kind of brings you close to nature, and that can be in just the safety of your home without having to go out to spaces if you're not ready to do that just yet. Got it? I love it. I love it. Yeah. And I saw a suggestion also of like these underwater videos where you can kind of see like all these fishing right yeah. I mean just something simple is that, you know, or even just you know, opening your window and you're like, oh, just get the breeze a little bit. And and the interesting thing is it doesn't take a long amount of time. I do have a colleague who's with me at the University of Maryland. Her name is Dr Naomi Sacks. She actually did research and she found that it's little. It's ten minutes of leisure time. Experiencing nature can give you the most benefits, you know, improve your mental health, improve your well being just ten minutes. A lot of times people think, oh, you know, nature, I gotta get my backpack, I gotta pack up the car, I gotta go up to this mountain and this. It could just be ten minutes of all the different ways that you know I just described and how you can absorb some nature and you'll be amazed at the benefits that you're able to read. So can you talk about some of those benefits and maybe some of the things that we have lost related to you know, our space is being more urbanized, So you've already talked about in black communities there does not tend to be as much green space and we see more urban environments. So can you talk about some of the downsides event right, It's interesting because currently about half of us live in urbanized areas, and they project that by the twenty fifty will be like sixty eight percent of us worldwide will be living in urbanized cities. And you know, urbanization is great in the sense that it can bring some advantages and some disadvantages. You know, if we think about you know, there's sometimes better access to certain services when you live in urbanized area or a city, but some of the disadvantages have to do with some like kind of the profound changes and even how our social family patterns are organized. So if you think about the fact that if you live in a city and maybe you have aging parents who live in a more rural ror or even in a suburb, there's that gap and so it becomes very challenging to be able to tailor your life in such a way that you can still fulfill the responsibility you need in terms of aging parents and then balancing that with children. But we have seen that, you know, urbanization not only just in terms of disrupting family patterns. You know, it can't affect you know, mental health through a variety of stressors. Whether that's the overcrowding, noise, pollution, I say, I have a lot of noise pollution where I live. I live across the street from a fire station, so hearing the sirens you know every some hours. Light pollution so there's sometimes more light in the urban area, high level violence, and then the reduced social support that I was alluding to before. So with all of these stressors you can have a couple with the fact that sometimes there's like this intertwined relationship between urban living and poverty, and so between all of that it can really have some detrimental effects on mental health. And when I say mental health and mental disorders, I'm including depression, anxiety. We've seen it with substance abuse, alcoholism, family alienation, a variety of different things, and a lot of research has actually shown that in some urban areas those higher levels of anxiety and depression for women than it is for men. And we've also seen that that it's more prevalent when you couple that with the area being poor versus not being poor. And so it's like these kind of layered effects in terms of the social isolation, the external masters that can really cause havoc on your your mental health. And then couple with the fact that if you don't get in good dose of nature, you know, to help kind of in between those bouts of all these stressors, then it can really be you know, even more detrimental because you don't have a reprieve mm hmmm. Yeah. So you already mentioned some of the things that people could do if they had limited space or limited access to nature, but you're also talking about like poverty and other situations that might make it difficult to like listen to a YouTube video or something like that, right, right, And so you have suggestions of other things that maybe don't involve technology for people who maybe have limited access to nature. I do have a suggestion since that sometimes practicing meditation, um and mindfulness can help in terms of kind of just putting you in a space. I saw this quote it said exposure to nature can quite the rumination of the word wine. And I think even if you don't have access to nature, I think the meditation and being in a quiet space can help quiet that mind and help prevent that constant rumination. We all get into that point where we're just going in circles and circles and circles worrying about something or concerned about something. And so if you don't have that easy access to the parks or the easy access to technology to help you link to listening to that, I think if you can just find apply space in your home or quiet space at work, you know sometimes you might be just shutting your door and just kind of meditating for those ten minutes, you can kind of still simulate some of the benefits that you would get if you were in a place of nature. So, Dr Roberts, I know that a part of your work involves working with doctors who are kind of encouraging prescriptions for physical activities. Can you say more about that work? Sure? So the park our X movement started here in d C as DC park r X, and it will start to buy Dr Robert's are and it's kind of evolved into Park r X America, And basically that's just kind of a nonprofit organization and its mission is to decrease the burden of chronic disease, increase health and happiness, but also kind of foster this environmental stewardship. And so the goal is to actually have physicians, health care providers, nurses actually prescribe a dose of nature. And there's an actual prescription that you can get. You can get it by text, you can get a piece of paper, and the patient will actually get prescribed twenty minutes of going out to their local park. And you actually walk through the process with the patients. So you asked them, you know, where do you live or where you work, you can actually have a few minutes to go out and be in green space, and using that, you put that information in and then you'll say, okay, well what do you like to do? Do you like to walk? Do you like to just kind of meditate when you're out there? And so the prescription will not only say you know which park you can go to, but then they will say, you know, do like twenty minutes of meditation, twenty minutes of walking, and here's the prescription for during this three times a week, and they found that after a while, people started enjoying it to the point where people didn't need a prescription anymore. They realized, oh, wow, I can do this for twenty minutes or even longer. And they've noticed that, you know, this idea of prescribing these which was intended to be a kind of a supplement, not necessarly an alternative, but a supplement to some of the medicines and the therapies that people were already on in terms of the conventional therapies. But people were able to see that, Wow, I've actually been able to reduce my blood pressure medication, or I've actually been able to cease taking my blood plessure medication because I have been walking three times a week in my local park. And so it's this kind of ideal that using these natural, free kind of resources that are generally trusted and accessible, hopefully that you can actually use this as a supplement to moving our health, not only our physical health, but also our mental health. I'm curious to hear your thoughts about how like our relationship to nature changes now in light of the coronavirus. Right, so, we do know, are these researches suggesting that it is safer at least to be outside and you know, still distanced but wearing masks. But I'm wondering, like what we might see evolve in terms of our relationship to nature in light of this. It's an interest you say that, because when we started getting all these you know, shutdown orders, people were starting to get cabin fever, and so you know, many people started flocking to like their local parks, to the point where some parks are becoming so crowded that it was hard for people to social distance in the actual parks. And it's really funny that I think about that because even my governor he was trying to tell people, you guys have to be six ft apart, six ft apart. So he actually took down the hoops of the basketball court because he tried to prevent people from playing basketball. And it was so funny because it was like counterintuitive, like you want people to be feeling reactive, but at the same time you want them to be six ft apart. And so it's funny because I feel like it's kind of awakening came about where people were like, oh, I can get out because everything else is closed. I think it also let us become more aware of some of the disparities though, because not all of us had access. Not all of us had equal access, and many of us live in what we call recreational deserts, you know, park deserts, kind of just playing along the same framework is food deserts. But the key is the definition is not having access to a park that's also safe, and so a lot of us didn't have that, and so it just kind of came to like many of the inequities that were already there in the sense that, you know, you had some people who just were kind of stuck they couldn't go to a park. And it's interesting that you asked this about the whole COVID thing, because going back to the park are X, I actually started an initiative on my campus at the University marital And called nature are X at U m D. And it's part of this whole kind of coalition of campus our networks so many campuses, about twenty in the US and Canada. We kind of started our own little you know, nature are X on each individual campus and just kind of going along with a lot of the mission of park rs encourage students, staff faculty to explore the natural spaces on campus, and my actual campus is actually deemed arboretum, so we have many trails and many spaces, so encouraging people just to go out for a few minutes. And then also we're eventually going to incorporate the whole ideal of writing a prescription for green space exposure. But we're actually going to have an online supposed in this October, and one of the main things we're gonna talk about is how nature has been helping people throughout this whole COVID nighting pandemic, you know, because people have felt isolated, people have felt still crazy, but going out in nature has not only helped him deal with that mental part, but it's also helped in terms of some of the physical activity of actually walking in nature. So there's been you know, plus and mindus and you know, who see the inequities of people who don't have access in nature, but then we see some of the pluses from the people who did were able to increase their level of physical activity and kind of just get reacquainted with some of the benefits of nature. Yeah, it definitely has been that I think for a lot of people, you know, because I think in the beginning of like shut down, and when people were sheltering in place, it was like, okay, can I even go outside? Right? Like is it even safe to be outside near people? Right? Right? So I think going outside has helped to ground people, you know, if you don't have access to like a beautiful ground space. I think just seeing people move around is a very grounding experience when you've kind of been in your house for some time. Exactly, I've seen more neighbors that I have not seen in years. I'm like, oh, you know, because people are just me out in the street and just kind of like, I can't be in this house, like you know, what's kind of this almost like awakening or people coming to lights. I kind of liken it to like cicadas where a bird for years and then we just came out, you know, and we see each other, and I hope we don't go back down, you know, you know, like before. But you know, there, I guess that is one of the silver linings of this pandemic. Yeah, yeah, So what are you most excited about in terms of your growing field? Like you said, you know, there are lots of different terms from what your work is called, and it does seem to be like a growing field. So what are you most excited about. I think I'm most excited about the fact that people are starting to recognize that the marriage between nature and physical activity can be promoting to your health, you know. And it cannot only be propting to your health. It could help you in the sense that it may not be a completely you know, alternative to some of like the medicines that people are taking weathers for diabetes, for high blood pressure, but it can be a supplement that can help you so that maybe you can decrease the dosage. And I've actually heard people who eventually, you know, cease the type of medication. And so I think people kind of understanding that, you know, there's this other whole kind of therapeutic and preventative outlet that is good for us, you know. And I also am encouraged by the fact that I see more people of color coming into the field, more people of color coming into the field from different angles. There was a woman who she started I forgot her name right now, but she and I believe she's Atlanta. She started this group or this company where she gives bike tours. So people are on the bike and She's going to different historical spots with in Atlanta, and so you're getting a little bit of both. You're getting some African American history, but then you're also getting some physical activity. She's a woman of color, and so she's marrying you know, history and active living together. And so I think a lot of those things excite me about this field because it's an evolving field and it's completely different than it was maybe ten years ago. It's still a young field, but it's still in you. It's evolving, and so I think seeing what can come of it in the next ten years is something that I find exciting. Yeah, that does sound exciting, and people I think are also during this time getting innovative, right, you know, so thinking about like how you can do some of these things that are still safe for people to participate in. Exactly, exactly exactly. Yeah. So do you have any additional resources that you would suggest for people who maybe want to learn more about this or things that have been particularly helpful for you. I know there's a group that I'm part of, it's called Active Living Research that is definitely a resource because it gives you a variety of different tools to look at how you can be more physically active. So that's one key thing that I do in my research on the nature side. There's park our x America website that gives a plenty of information. And also what I like about the website is if you go to the website, it immediately shows you a map and it shows you where greens aces are close to your location based on where you've logged on. And so I would definitely go there if you're like, well, I don't know where the closest park is or I don't know where these parks are, you know, kind of give you an ideal of, oh, there was actually one just like half a mile down the road, or one you know, right around the block. And so I like that kind of website that helps you kind of understand that. And then you know, there's other kind of tools that you know, you can look at if you really want to get into some of the research. And the woman who I mentioned before, Dr Georgetta Taylor, She's done a lot of research regard the environmental justice look at the connection of African Americans and nature. So I would definitely look at some of her work. And then even you know, the professor Dr Melanie Harris is another person who I would look at as well. They're on the website and you can look at some of the work that they've done if you really want to get to kind of some of more the scholarship behind it. Perfect, and where can people who connect with you with your website? Are any social media handles you'd like this year? So my website is my full name. I always say it's long, but it's my full names. So it's Jennifer Denise Roberts dot com. And through that website you can get linked to my website at the University of Maryland and then my Twitter is at active Roberts, so it's pretty easy to kind of remember. And if you find one of those, you can link to some of the other spaces that I have some information up on the web. So perfect. Thank you so much for sharing with us today, Dr Roberts. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Dr Bradford. This has been a thrill to chat with you. I'm really excited that you invited me and I hopefully we get a chance to chat more in the future. Thank you. So we have heard you all loud and clear. Many of you have sent in messages saying that you love the episodes where we share journal prompts, are other practical ways for you to take what we've talked about in the episode and apply it in your own life. So today we're introducing a brand new segment called press Pause. This will be your opportunity within the next week to press pause on everything else going on, to engage in something that will be restorative or reflective for you. This week, our Press Pause comes from Birth, who you heard from earlier. So Birth, I would like for you to close us today with one practice that we can use. So for somebody who's been really inspired by hearing you talk today, what's one practice, maybe a very low barrier to injury, thing that they can do to get connected with nature or to help them to kind of re establish the relationship. My one thing would be to treat yourself to some sort of meditative time in nature. There's a practice called sits spots, which is a practice used by indigenous groups all over the world, particularly in the America's and sits spots is literally as it sounds, it's finding a space in a natural setting that you feel drawn to and sitting in it, ideally for at least fifteen minutes and just tuning into things around you, what you can hear, what you can smell, the sensations against your skin. And the idea of a sit spot is as we move through woodlands or open spaces, wildlife is reacting to us. We're a potential threat. But if we sit still for long enough, the natural world accepts us as part of the flora and fauna and starts to go about its business as it would if we weren't there. And you get a real window into the conversations and the communion between natural things, including ourselves. And this can be a deeply connecting practice. If you don't have access to nature immediately, then this is a meditation that can be done just viewing pictures of nature, a lovely video of nature from YouTube, just tuning in, enjoying the imagery and the sounds. I'm so glad Beth and Dr Roberts were able to share their expertise with us today. To learn more about them and their work, be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session one seventy two and for all the plant parents among us, our friends at the Seal are offering the tv G community off your next purchase at the Seal dot com. Just enter promo code Therapy for Black Girls fifteen at checkout. Don't forget to share your takeaways with us on social media using the hashtag tv G in session, and please text two sisters in your circle right now and encourage them to check out the episode as well. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into this topic and connect with some other sisters, come on over and join us in the Yellow Couch Collective, where we take deeper dive into the topics from the podcast and just about everything else. You can join us at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash y c C. Don't forget that. If you're looking for a way to in summer on a high note, Cricket Wireless has got just the thing. Get ready for unlimited smiles, unlimited times. For get four lines of unlimited data for a hundred dollars a month. Thank you all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon take it care,