Session 44: Perfectionism

Published Feb 14, 2018, 8:00 AM
This week's episode features Bianca Hughes, Associate Professional Counselor. Bianca and I discussed what perfectionism is, where it comes from, and tips and strategies you can use to create more realistic expectations and feel more comfortable being your authentic self.

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Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, where we discuss all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information and resources, visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. And while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session forty four of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. Today's episode focuses on another topic that many of you said you wanted covered, perfectionism. For today's episode, I am joined by Bianca Hughes. Bianca is an associate professional counselor in Atlanta, Georgia. She specializes in perfectionism, helping people embrace their imperfections and authentically be themselves. She helps clients work through concerns of self worth, unhealthy relationships, identity, are feeling overwhelmed. Her approach within therapy is direct but open, meeting clients where they are providing them freedom to change when they're ready. She believes in empowering and equipping people with skills, tools and resources they can utilize for life. In addition, her passion is to eliminate mental health stigmas, which are prevalent within the black community. Bianca and I discussed what perfectionism is, where it comes from, and tips and strategies you can use to create realistic expectations and feel more comfortable being your authentic self. Here's our conversation. Well, thank you so much for joining us to Dave Bianca, Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Joy No, I am incredibly excited to have you here because this has been a very highly requested episode and I knew exactly who I wanted to bring on to talk about this. So we are going to be chatting about perfectionism today. UM. So can you start by kind of giving us a definition of what perfectionism is? Yes, so I have kind of created my own, um and just keeping it really simple. But basically, it's UM a continuous and exhausting cycle of trying to be enough. UM A big thing. UM. You know, people talk about perfectionism or perfectionists and trying to be perfect. But it's just and I always want to highlight it's continuous because of course we're always going to want to do our best, but it's that continuous cycle of trying to be enough and you never feel like you are enough or doing enough. M m yeah, I mean, just you're talking about it, it sounds like an exhausting kind of thing, like if it's a continuous kind of thing. Yes, yes, yes, And that's what that perfectionism is. And I always want to highlight to people that it's not a person. So I don't really use the term perfectionist because I don't like to label people, and so I use the term perfectionism. And it is a belief, Okay, it's a belief of I can do enough, I can be perfect or um, I can be enough and I can prove to people. So it's that belief that if I'm do enough and prove enough, I'll be perfect, Um, I will be loved, and which will lead me onto the deep seated thing of it's all about wanting to be accepted as well, and um it often stems from the deep thing of rejection. So I'm gonna do everything I can to be enough, do enough so I won't be rejected. Mm hmm. Okay, so you already touched on it a little bit. Can you talk more about where this need to be perfect comes from? Yeah? Um, so the root issue is always you know, I'm someone always looked at the root, how did this start? Where did this come from? And it comes from rejection? Okay, So I'm gonna do everything I can do to be perfect to be accepted, which is normal. We want to be accepted, okay, um, because we're designed for relationships. But the whole idea is I don't want to be rejected because once I'm rejected, UM, I experienced a deep loneliness, a deep pain UM, and I'm gonna feel like I'm disconnected. And of course, as um, humans were all wired for connection, and so the fear of us to be and disconnected um not, which comes from not being accepted, it's huge. So in order to avoid that pain, um and not experience that, we're going to do everything we can to be perfect because we believe being perfect is the only way we're going to be accepted. Unfortunately, a lot of it comes from family, um. In things and expectations of family UM. You know of course, being compared to other people in the family either wanting you to excel um or other people at school make sure you do better than so and so. Um, look what grades they have, and um, we experienced a lot of shame sometimes in our families unfortunately, and so because that hurts, we don't never wanted to experience that again. So how early are we talking about this, Bianco? You know, because I'm thinking, like to my four year old who will like sometimes be on the playground and says two things like, um, you know, like so and so didn't want to with me or so. Surely it's not like one or two instances of like somebody not wanting to play with you. Like what kinds of things that we're really looking at in terms of like history, Um, like how many rejections are, Like what kind of pattern of rejection are we really looking at before we see like some kind of perfectionistic kind of tendencies developed. Well, you know, it's so funny. I was talking to my friend the other day and her door I think it's eight or nine, and she's stigned to see in her doors. So often you'll see like I got to keep on doing my work. It's not good enough. So I'm going to rub it out and sorry, rub it raise it out. Excuse me, guys, that's my I'm gonna RaSE it out because it's it's not enough. So but it's a continuous thing of hearing those slight words and not being even though we experienced some form of rejection, we also have to be reassured that we're okay in that, and so there's that big, big need for approval. So it's you know, sometimes it can just even have to once, to be quite honest with you, if we're not being approved also in that moment, So you know, I hear people saying, oh, you know, you're never going to amount to anything. And of course you have to remember as children we kind of know this, but cognitively as children, they don't know how to process that as we do as adults. So even though sometimes children are really resilient, sometimes they take things to heart and that's who they are. So it also depends on the makeup of the person as well. So something else you said, Bianca, um, you know sometimes parents will kind of unknowingly kind of instill some of this and talking about like, oh, I want you to have better grades than so and so are you have to be like your big sister who you know has really good grades or has done all of these amazing things. And I that makes me think of, you know, like culturally, Um, you know this whole idea that black people have to work twice as hard to get half the amount of accomplishment and achievement as other people. Um. So do you think that there are some cultural pieces that might make this more prevalent especially for black women? Yes? Yes, as women in general. Yes. And then of course, you know, you know we're talking about all these different me too and and and how women are treated and and seen as objects in general as a woman, and now to add on the race thing, yes, it's huge. Okay, I give an example of me, Like I'm a first of many, first going to college, first, getting a master's, first doing this. Oh you're you know, and there's this expectation and this pressure for you to do better, even better than your family members or some people with they might already have doctors in their family, so they have to perform the same way. But there's always this expectation of you have to do better, You have to prove yourself and to prove that you are worthy and prove that you are valuable. It's not enough that you're just a human being, which is the basic standards that you're valuable and you're worthy because you're a human being. No, it has to be even more than that. And that's exhausting. Absolutely. I mean that's kind of what we talked about in the beginning, like the fact that it's a continuous kind of thing that you're always kind of thinking about how I could be doing better, or not even able to kind of celebrate what you currently finished because you're already thinking about the next thing that needs to be done. Yes, oh my god. Yes that doesn't mention things like, um, the strong black woman. I mean, you know, I you know, you just cannot be strong all the time. This is just not possible. And there's this expectation that we're strong, we're feiless and all, and yes we are, but you know what, we always have also have moments of weaknesses, and um, we don't always ask for help as women black women when we need to. We wait until it's really really, really bad. And if we do ask for help, then we now lose that expectation of us being that strong black woman. That is a big thing and I think the other one is the angry black woman. So then we have to prove that we're not the angry black woman. You know. So these two things that keep coming at us. That's you know, we're trying to fight against these images, not to mention all the stuff that our parents have told us. So we've got these coming at us at different angles. Um. Not trying to be a statistic, however, that's single mother, onward mother, um, all those things that come into it. Then if you are also religious, then you have those expectations. So you know, you see what We've just got so much coming at us as black women, not just to mention as women, right, And it really feels like, um, no matter what you do, a lot of times, there is another expectation. Right. So you go to school and you get all these degrees, and then the questions are, well, when you're going to be married, and then when you're married, when you're gonna have kids, and then when you have the next kid you know. So I mean, so it feels like every time you hit one of these markers, then there is another marker that people expect you to to meet. And unfortunately, I think it's starting to change now but I don't know about you, Joy, but I don't remember anyone telling me, you know what, just celebrate you know, versus Okay, when's the next thing? And I'm having to learn and teach my UM clients to celebrate the small things. I don't care if you just made your bed today. Can you celebrate something? You know? Can we take time and celebrate masses degree before trying to get our PhD? Right? Right? But I think a part of that comes with the fact that it's an expectation, right. So if people expect you to do something, then it's not really a cause or a celebration because it's what you're expected to do. Yeah, yeah, And um, you know you're talking about expectations. That's a big thing that I talk about is realistic expectations, um, because often with the perfectionism, the expectations are unrealistic. And so when we still constantly trying to reach on realistic expectations, we feel worthless, you know, we feel inadequate. But we never started to look at art if our expectations are realistic. We just look at the fact that we didn't achieve them, right, right. So so that kind of takes us into my next question, which is, what does perfectionism look kind of in everyday life? Like, how would somebody know that they are actually struggling with perfectionism? Yeah? Absolutely so sounds like this in our heads. I'm not doing enough. Everyone is so much further along with me. Um, if I do it perfectly, I will feel better. M And another big one other should I should not feel this way? I should be so much further along then I am. Um. Look, I should not have made that mistake. If only I didn't do this way, do it this way, I would have been so much better. Those are the some of the things that we kind of sound it sounds like in our in our head um to ourselves. Um. It also looks like, you know, everyday life, there might be some often procrastination. Oh my gosh. People don't think that procrastination has to do with perfectionism, um, but it does because the way that works is because you want it to be perfect the first time and you don't want to make a mistake. Often you don't even stop, and that's where the procrastination comes in. That's huge with perfectionism. Um. Also looks like we kind of talked about the unrealistic expectations um in our everyday life a big one social media, constantly comparing yourself two people on social media, whether they're your friends, UM, in relationships, having kids, getting jobs, being successful, when business, wh where people are smiling, and I always have to remind people, you know, this is like the two second picture, one second picture that's probably taken twenty times. And so there's that comparison is so huge if you find your constantly UM comparing yourself. Another big one UM, which I find sometimes I do this is I don't have enough time, and so we limit what we're able to do because I'm not having enough time. Yeah. Oh, and another big one is your toss less. Your tossless is endless and never seems to get finished and is another big one. Yeah. Okay, So having this long list of tasks that you have to get done, but then you can't make it through the test because you're taking so much time trying to be perfect at completing a task. Okay, but your list was probably too long in the first place, right, going back to that expectations, Yeah okay. And there's also there's a sense of sorry, inadequacy. M hmm, Yeah, I'm feeling in adequate. Feel lonely or overwhelmed. Overwhelmed is a big one. Feeling overwhelmed. Yeah, and it feels like that might lead back to the procrastination piece that you said, like, if I feel like I'm kind of inadequate in approaching this task, then that makes it less likely that I want to start it. Yes, yes, okay, okay, So what is the solution for some of this janga? Like how are you working with your clients um to kind of help to manage some of these perfectionistic tendencies. Yeah. So one of the things my focus is on embracing your imperfections and authentically being you. Uh, And so with that, my big thing is teaching people to kind of embrace who they are with all those mistakes, imperfections, all that beautiful mess is what I like to call it, and just finding out who they are in the midst of that. Because the focus has been so much on trying to be perfect and what other people want that sometimes they often lose a sense of who they are. And when I mean who they are, I mean what are your characteristics? Are you kind? Are you thoughtful? Not what you do? Which is their role um regards you know, if they're a mom, or a sister or a worker, But just who are you as a person without all of these labels, with out all of these expectations, Who are you? And so how can we start to embrace that? And so what I always kind of emphasize is honesty yourself. Um. Sometimes we realize that something's off, we feel off, patns off, we've got unhealthy behavior, but we keep going anyway because we hope that it's going to get better. So the first thing is being honest with myself and saying, Okay, there's something going on, something is not right, um, and I need help. And so what I do then is constantly I'm always talking through my clients, um and just asking them questions. Um. That's one of my superpowers, this is asking questions. So things like, okay, what does this say about me? You know, when you're about to do something? What does it say about me? What does it say about who I am? Why is it so important? Simple things like getting people to write things down. We don't write. And I always say, you know, when you take the time to stop and write things down, then you start to think more clearly. You don't feel so overwhelmed. So sometimes okay, if I'm gonna make a decision. Let me actually write out the pros and cons versus it being in my head, because down that begins to make things clear. Now I'm starting to make decisions. I teach clients about boundaries. Boundaries is so huge, um. And that means saying no to other people that might be even been saying no to myself. So that's another big thing. UM that I teach them is just boundaries. You've got to have boundaries. And then um, also asking your questions about your expectations. Are they realistic? Um? Are they realistic for me? Are they realistic to other people? And then one big thing I'd like to teach is on self compassion because we tend to be so hard on ourselves. I'm not good enough from a failure, Um, I can't believe I'm made all these mistakes. I teach people how to be gentle, kind and loving towards themselves, um, and start to embrace who they are as a person, in their strengths, and teach them about the power of vulnerability. Like you know, I often hear people talk about the negative emotions and positive and for me, there is no difference in emotion. Is an emotion. But people have a hard time and sharing what they call negative emotions like sadness, hurt because they sense that it's weak. Well, actually, when you start being honest with yourself, saying how you feel, saying what you need, then you get so much more power than you actually think. I think that's that's key as well. So something you mentioned beyond and that made me think, um, what somebody who struggles with perfectionism really be able to gauge whether an expectation was realistic or not? Like, how would you help them to gauge whether something was realistic? Yeah, so at the beginning of MM, that is very hard. But um, the first thing I would ask is like, well, well where did this come from? Where did the idea come from? Um? And asking them do you think there's any possible up a way? Have you seen anyone else do it? And so in asking questions for me, it stops and makes people think, um, at different ways of looking at things, in different experiences. And if you and you know, and I always give examples or well who who where did you learn that from? And then they'll tell me and I'm like, okay, well the person that learned you learned that from, or who told you this? What do you think about that person? And the reason I asked in that because I always don't want to know is this a healthy source that you're getting your expectations from, because if it's not, and then they're like, oh, I never thought about it like that. So I find breaking down the questions finding out where did these expectations come from? And are there any alternatives stops to make people think. Does they always make them change straight away? No? Absolutely not. But then they come back and be like, oh, yeah, you know that thing that you said like three months ago, and I say, yes, oh I see it now. So I think that's a big thing for us as therapists as well, not to expect our clients to change straight away because you know, this is what they've been doing for a long time, right of course, of course, And one of the questions that you mentioned early on, I could imagine that being a very powerful probably a couple of sessions, UM tell me about like who you are not necessarily your rule, right, because it feels like a lot of perfectionism is tied to rules like I want to be the perfect mother, I want to be the perfect therapist, I want to be the perfect daughter kind of thing, and like you describe, those are all rules. Those are not things that are like inherent to me. Those are just rules that I play UM. So I can imagine that may even be a struggle for people to divorce themselves of those roles versus who I really am. Yeah, So how I teach that is UM, I incorporate the roles um in the sense that so say they have UM A sister, say their mole ism mom okay, And so I say to them, Okay, what does it take? What characteristics or um do you need to be a mom? And so they all identify loving, care, l caring, thoughtful. I said, okay, give me another role. So then they'll give me another role in their life, for example, friend. And then I'll say to them, well, what do you need to be a good friend? And then they'll give me the characteristics. So by them giving me those characteristics, they start to see how um those characteristics are playing out in their roles versus their roles playing into their characteristics. That's how I kind of helped them and break it down for them. Okay, yeah, that does seem like it would be easier to manage in that way. Because they have they can't you know, it's hard for them to see it, UM, to see who they are and the great person they are. So that's where the therapy comes in. And I think also once you start building um a great relationship and making a safe place UM with with clients, UM, then I can also start to help them see some things and you know, and congratulate them and things that they've done and changes, and then they're like, oh, yeah I did do that. Oh I didn't think about that, And then they begin to it's not their eyes and see already who they are. They just didn't realize it. So you've already kind of offered us some tips and ex plaining the way that you work with your clients UM to help with this perfectionism. But are there other tips or strategies that you could offer to people who may be listening and thinking like, oh, I can kind of see myself and which he's describing, um, some tips to trying to manage some of this perfectionism. UM. Yeah. I did actually kind of mention quite a few of them. But besides UM, you know, also having a safe space. Some people don't have a safe space to share UM, so sometimes you might want to start creating that. And I always say to people people like, well, have I know if people safe? And I was like, just pay attention to people, and how do they talk about other people? Do they speak highly of them or not highly of them? And they're like yeah, And I was like, you know, for the most part, you guys know more than you think you do, and you kind of get that feeling if they're a safe person. And so you just gradually, you know, kind of say hey, I'm having a hard day, I'm having a tough moment. UM. So those are some things being like I said, saying no to your self and finding through the fear. UM. I don't know if people heard this saying do it afraid, UM, I do a whole bunch of things afraid, Like coming onto this podcast, it's scary, okay, and UM. And I say this because you know, I constantly UM struggle with perfectionism. You know, UM, I was even mentioned to you Joy. You know, I had a perfectionism moment and I thankfully had a great friend to talk to and share that. And what I realized is which we share UM with everyone, is I have to be honest about UM what I need and what I didn't get so um in this moment um, and I was telling myself why shouldn't feel like that? Or I shouldn't want this? But no, I had to say in that moment it was particularly I just needed approval from somebody in that moment and they wasn't giving it to me. But I felt like I shouldn't even want that. This goes back to Shuggar would have could it? So in that it's saying, Okay, well what do I really need? And that goes back to being honest with myself. But of course if you're struggling with perfectionism, you don't want to pay a week, You want to tear like you've got everything um together. But in that experience, it asked me, let me feel so much more free, And that's what we're going towards. We're going towards freedom um in that and being authentic and being who you are UM in in embracing those. So I don't know if you also wanted me to share some books that would be helpful as well? Yes, absolutely, all of your favorite resources for people to learn more about about perfectionism. Um soh yeah, before we talk about books, journaling, um, just writing down. Um. We always go back to this, I think as therapists, not me. But it's so powerful and I'm gonna say that I don't always do it, but when I do do it, I do feel so much better. The things like, UM, writing how you felt today and writing a gratitude list what you're thankful for also help you to be present. I think that's another big thing, is trying to be present in the moment. UM. Turning off the phone to be present, or turning off Instagram or social media for the weekend. I do that, um, just because I don't want to, um, you know, be kept connected and wired and comparing myself. But UM, some great book is Boundaries by Townsend and Cloud. UM that's a really really good book, UM for them to read like, it's so good. Gifts of Imperfection by Brune Brown and Brne Brown also has a Ted talk on UM. Two Ted talks on listening to shame and the power of vulnerability. UM. She was has another good book, Daring Greatly. And for those clients. I do have clients, UM, and and people who are Christians. So that's because I help my clients as I've also been trained for that, and so for those who are Christian, and because I find there's a lot of parental wounds in the perfectionism. As we talked about it starts from the family. And one good book and even if you're not a Christian, you can still read it. But it's called Experiencing Father's Embraced by Jack frost Um is another one, and also the blog The Father Swap by kia Um Stevens and is another good book, a really really good book. And for those um Without Bruises by Jillian Simmons. It talks about her abusive relationship. And I just want to highlight on that because she was a really good book and she was like, she's still a radio personality, and so she was on the radio, you know, presented herself as just having it all together and having a great life, but behind closed doors, she was in an abusive relationship, um and very much more emotional abusive. That's why I kind of liked that book. So I think that's a good book for people to read and realize they're not alone. He said. The name of that one was Without Bruises, Without Bruises by Julian Simmons, and I think that's that's a really good one. So those are some um good tips to start with. Yeah, that's a really good list. I mean in the Boundaries and the Gifts of Imperfection, like like many guests have recommended those, so you can tell that those are like therapist favorites because there are people so people have already recommended though, so that should indicate that those are actually really good ones. Tookshelf m definitely definitely, definitely, definitely. So that's just a good place to start. And sometimes you know, go back and read like bios autobiographies of people who you really admire, and you will find that their lives were not perfect. So I think that's also helpful as well. If we have the expectation that life is imperfect versus that it's going to be perfect, it gets a lot easier to manage, right, Yeah, So is there anything exciting going on in your practice, Bianca that you want to share with people? Um? Yes, So for those who are in Atlanta, UM, i am got a couple of things going on so in March, which is much twenty four Um, you guys can find out this information on my website, which I'll give to you as well. I'm going to be doing a workshop called I Love Me Some Me and that will be talking about the self compassion as an antidote for perfectionism. So that we'll be in Atlanta. UM. Also, you ladies can find me those who are in Atlanta at a Sister Siesta, which is actually for black women and it's a monthly event. UM. You can find the information on event Bright monthly event where women of color, black women just come together and just we just talk on different topics. And I just co facilitate that with Jumping with Jazz with Jazzmine, which is a great event and everyone who comes just loves it because they just feel safe. They feel they can let their head down and they don't have to have this strong woman um and be perfect in that. So that's a good place where you can come and join in and um oh, and I'm also going to be preparing to do a group on parental wounds which will start in mid March, which would be a private UM therapy group. So yeah, you're going to be very busy, I am. And I also wanted to offer the ladies daily affirmations which they will be able to download on my website. UM. And it's just daily affirmations that they can read to themselves prontown import in their mirror like an amazing, I'm courageous, I'm kind those kind of things because so they can start to build up on their identity and start thinking about themselves and who they are. So, what is your website, Bianca? So? My website is Bianca K Hughes. It's about h Q G h e s dot com in any social media handles you want to share with people. Yes, so, And if you don't get this, everything is on my website. But on Facebook and Twitter, I am authentically and then it's the letter B and then the letter you, and then Instagram and YouTube. You can find me on authentically be you. So that would be UM spelled b E and N y o U. And all of this information will also be in the show notes so that people don't have to worry about missing any of that. Yeah, I know, it's hard to keep out with all of this stuff joy, especially when people are driving. You know, they can't make notes of this, So that's why I always like to include it in the show notes. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Bianca and sharing a wealth of information. I really appreciated. You're welcome and I really hope this helps the women um that are struggling with that, and you know, because it's difficult, So I hope this helps everyone. Absolutely. Thank you, Bianca. You're welcome. Make sure to check out those incredible resources Bianca mentioned. You can find links to all of the books and videos she mentioned at Therapy for Black Girls dot Com slash Session forty four. If you recognize yourself in this episode, I feel like you learned something new. We loved hear about it. Please share your thoughts with us on social media and make sure to use the hashtag t b G in session. Remember that if you're looking for a therapist, use the therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to join us in the thrive tribe, where we continue the conversations from the podcast and talk about all other kinds of issues, head on over to Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash tribe and join us To keep up with important updates and mental health information. Make sure you're following us all across social media. You can find us on Twitter at Therapy for the Number four be Girls, and you can find us on Instagram and Facebook at therapy for Black Girls, and please make sure that you're continuing to share the podcast with new people who have not heard of it. 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