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M h. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session one oh three of the Arapy for Black Girls Podcast. In today's episode, we'll be chatting with Dr Magdala Sherry about how you can partner with your primary care physician for better health outcomes. But first, a quick word about our sponsor. This week's episode is sponsored by Natural Sious. 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Use the promo code and natural sious dot net and enter the code joy at checkout to get ten percent off. Now let's get back to our episode. For this conversation, I was joined by Dr Magdalens Sherry, who is a boy certified internal medicine physician, motivational speaker, and health policy enthusiast. Dr Sherry currently practices as a primary care general internist and Assistant professor at Rowan Medicine in New Jersey, serving the South Jersey and Greater Philadelphia community. Her career focuses include women's health, lifestyle, behavioral coaching for chronic diseases, and addressing health disparities. And vulnerable populations. Dr Sherry and I discussed how primary care physicians are involved in screening for mental health concerns, how they collaborate and refer to mental health professionals, how you can better advocate for yourself with physicians, and she shared her thoughts on what PCPs need to do to ensure better health outcomes for black women. If you hear anything while listening that resonates with you, please share with us on social media using the hashtag tv G in Session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr Sherry, Thank you. I'm excited. I'm very happy to have you here. As therapists, we typically do lots of collaborations with you know, primary care physicians and other health professionals, all in the name of making sure that we're treating our clients well. So I'm very happy to have you here to hear from the physician side about like what that collaboration looks like and what kinds of things are happening in your office. Is to make sure that we are helping our clients tend to their mental health. Absolutely absolutely, yeah. So can you tell me about some of the things that you may have in place in your practice or that may be kind of commonplace for positions in terms of helping to screen them for any mental health concerns. What is typically done in the primary care office, you know, when you're coming in for your annual exam or getting your check in is what we will call for our preventative guidelines, which a lot of times we use the US Preventative Tax Force to kind of tell us, hey, what should gonna be checking for. And that's in regards to you know, your typical things like hypertension, diabetes, hype cholesterol, but we also have some guidelines when it comes to mental health, one of the big ones being depression. It is advised that we do screen everyone, in particular women who are pregnant. Who screen our questions which we call the PHDU two, which ends up falling over if that's pause stive to the PHQ nine. And this is important because I think sometimes when patients come in and we ask these questions, they get a little apprehensive, like why do you want to know that? So the first question you typically ask is have you lost interest in doing things and things that you love and things like that, or have you felt depressed, lonely? Of that sport, and if you don't have a good relationship with your doctor, you may quickly say no, or you may overlook and say, yeah, everything's been fine. But that's what we need to start screening and say, hey, could this person in front of me have something else or have some underlying major depressive disorder or something going on. So I really wanted to bring that up. So when patients here's something along those lines that the doctors asking them that they should try to answer as you know, honestly as possible. Now for people who already have a diagnosis of depression, so let's just say you established with me, you came in, you already told me, and you're actually on treatment. The big thing for us is we monitor you along the way because we recognize that a lot of times when the mental health, whatever you're going through is ignored, that can actually fill into your clinical health. So your blood pressure might not be controlled, you know, your diabetes is not where we want it to be, or you're gaining weight and you're heading towards obesity. So a lot of times it's back and forth. You may come in for something medically related or a symptom, and after we ask for questions, we have to take a step back and say, are we missing something and something else going on that's complicating the picture? Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, but I can share it because I am curious about, like what kinds of things a client might say that may make you think, oh, this may have more of a mental health land than a physical slant, because I think, especially for black women, sometimes the symptoms will present physically before they will recognize that it is actually a mental health kind of a thing. So what kinds of things might they say that would tip you off that this may actually be like a mental health issue? Great question. So one thing is the person who's coming in for frequent visits and you know you've done the work up a um and some of the common complaints you get is abdominal pain. That is a huge somatic complaint, how we call it something that's physical that tends to be sometimes a lot of psycho social is involved. And you do the food work up for the addonnald pain. You've gotten blood work, you've gotten imaging testing and there everything is negative. But this person is coming in like I still have it. Another good big one is headaches, headache, tends to be a big one that people come in for and you know, you make sure they're not dehydrated, and you know, make sure the blood pressure is okay. But as you work up everything that's not going away, and then the timing of the symptoms too, So sometimes people have symptoms only at particular times. It's always when they're going home or always when they're going to work. So you kind of as you're asking more questions and getting more details to make sure you're not missing something medical, you start to kind of get the antenna's go up. And then another big one is fatique. So really it can present it as anything, but it's really as we ask more questions and we start to see a pattern, or we see a person that's frequently coming in to see us and there not really satisfied with any medical answer, or they're saying they've tried it per se and it's not improving, that we start to say, you know what, let's take a step back, let's find out about more what's going on at home they're living with the dynamic, what's happening at work. That's a big one that I get. And you find out people are you know, either they've on the bridge of being laid off for their pay cup has been decreased, or other factors, lots of stretch at work, and you're like, now it's just starting to make sense. Yeah, And I think it's encouraging to hear you say that you kind of spend this kind of time with your patients to ask these questions. But I'm also aware that lots of people, you know, one of their frequent complaints you hear about, like your primary care doctors, like, oh, they don't spend any time with me, or you know, they don't ask a whole bunch of questions. So in what kinds of ways can primary care doctors maybe do a better job of being more thoughtful in asking these kinds of questions, because it sounds like you spend a lot of time like getting this bad ground information. Yes, so this is true, and I get the same complaints very often. I do believe that patients and people in general need to be very proactive about the doctor they choose. So, and what I mean by proactive, you know, if you feel like you're going to talk better with a woman, then your doctor should be a woman, right, If you think that you'll have a better connection especially for people of color. To have a doctor who's a person of color, then you should actually seek that. You should ask friends and family to say, Hey, what doctor do you go to? How do you feel about them? You know, I'm looking to a stablish care. I know the barrier will be insurance and cost or even distance, but I think, just like we proactive or everything in life, I think that's the first step. So I work at an academic institution, so I have a lot of medical students and residents who will follow me, and a lot of times I send them in the room first to go see a patient, and then they'll come back. I guess she wasn't really talking to me, or she wasn't really giving any much information, and I was like, okay, maybe something else going on. And then I'll go into the room and before they even open their mouth, I'm like, mhm, sums up, what's happening here? And We'll end up talking and then I'll get more information. And every time my resident or my medical student says, how did you do that? Like how did you figure that out? And I said, because we have a rapport, So that first visit when they come in and established care with me, you know, I spent a little bit more time digging into their history, in their background or just as time has gone on, and I've seen them several times. I've seen them in happy moments and low moments, and I really pushed them to tell me what's happening in their life. So even before I even utter a word, when I walk in, you can pick up that dynamic and a lot of times it's what doctors do. We may not see anything, but we're watching you. The posture, how you're talking to us is anything different from before. So I think this is really hard to do in primary care these days because what people don't know is that we're looked at, you know, in regards to productivity, how many people we can see, you know, how much time we spend. So yeah, this is very difficult. But I think if you can bridge the barrier and getting a doctor you feel comfortable with that you've been proactive about seeking, and then sell them up front. I had one woman say to me, so, yeah, I'm establishing here because I wasn't really happy with my last doctor and I want a doctor who's gonna partner with me. And I paused and I asked. I was like, oh, Okay, explain that to me, and she said, I want to make sure I'm hurt, and I want to make sure that we have a rapport. So I feel comfortable with telling you what's going on in my life because I understand that that can play a part and how my health looks. So again, it took me listening because I really had to stop typing. And that's the hard part to the primary characters just end up typing out a computer and I had to say, wait, wait, what does that mean? What are you looking for? So that could be something too when people are going in and they're seeing patients or doctors are there to say, you know what, what are you looking for? You're coming to see me, your establishing care where you haven't been here in a while. Where do I work with you to get to where we need to be together? And so you know, when you're doing all of this groundwork as a great primary care doctor, I think the tendency can be then, of course, for your patients to want to come to you for everything right, And so even if they have a hunch that it is more of a mental health of concern, because they feel comfortable with you, you are likely going to be the first person that they go to. UM. So can you tell me a little bit about the says because I do know that some primary care doctors feel comfortable like prescribing, you know, for prescribing medication for something like anxiety and depression or something else. So can you tell me a little bit about what that process might be like, like how comfortable typically or primary care doctors like managing mental health issues A great question. So for our training, things like depression, anxiety, that's probably the big ones that we typically do. Or when we're talking about anxiety, not just generalized anxiety, but you know, temper anxiety or work stress and things like that we are able to manage, whether that's through counseling in our office or adding medication. The problem is the time, right, So a lot of times what I find is the big issue is you've gone through all the chronic care stuff, the hypertension stuff, the diabetes stuff, the annual visit, making sure you've got all your vaccines, all that good stuff, and literally right about the time you're about to turn the doorn off and say hey, I'll see you in six months, the patient will say, oh yeah, and work as E been killing me? And I really feel like I'm anxious, So it's almost an after start, and that's sometimes what makes it very difficult for the primary care doctor to spend that time. So what I always encourage patients to do is, if you think this is related to your mental health and you make that appointment, say that. So say you know, I'm I've been really anxious, just like you would say I have abdonald pain. I kind of feel it's important to empower patients to say, hey, I don't like my mood, I don't feel comfortable, or make that very clear when you're making the appointment, or even as you see you know, the m A or the nurse who comes in before the doctor does. So I think that's huge because you know, when we're talking about the primary care doctor. Yes, a lot of times they come to us because they're comfortable, but we also have to assess is this person's table. So do I have time to say, you know what, I'm gonna start you on meds because that takes a few weeks to start, or do I say, you know what, I need help now? And that help could look like crisis, you know, right on the phone, right in the office, or it could look like I send you right directly to the e D to the hospital and let them know you're coming, or can mean, you know what, while I'm in my office, if I can, I look for resources and try to get you into a therapist office as soon as possible. So for us, our primary thing is let's just make sure this person is out harm to themselves and a harm to others. And do we have to intervene at that point to make sure you know they're cared for? And then you know, based on that, we look at, Okay, is this related to job? Do they have to take time off? Which is a big thing that you know your primary care doctor can help you with. But saying, you know what, I need some time off because I really can't get a handle on how I'm feeling or my mental disease, and even just to have time to you know, go see a therapist consistently. So you know, there's many ways that we're triaging and trying to figure out what is this person in front of me need. But the big thing is I gotta make sure you're safe and want to make sure you're safe. I say, okay, so what can I do at this point before I plug you into other services that may be necessary for you. Got it, And I appreciate you sharing that, actually sharing because I think sometimes people don't necessarily have the language for what's going on with them, right. You just know something is off. You know, my move feels kind of funky or whatever. But even if you say that on the phone, then your primary care doctor then knows to like ask more questions about that. So you don't have to know exactly what's happening, but if you can kind of give them a hands up there's something's going on, then they can kind of ask questions to get at the right direction. Yes, exactly, and even if you don't come in just saying that and leaving a message for the doctor. A lot of offices also have UM online portals now where you can communicate with the doctor electronically, So maybe you feel more comfortable, like you know, you're still in the process of articulating your feelings, right because we know there's so much taboo around saying I'm depressed, I'm anxious, I need help in that regard, So maybe you send a message to the doctor and say, you know, I don't like how I've been feeling, and the doctor can even just call you, make sure everything is good and that this is not something that warrants you go into the emergency room. But then can also make that appointment for you, and maybe they know that you're very you know, nervous about sharing that they can make their own dialogue and then in the visit saying, you know, give me a little bit more time with this person. It's a little are small they're gonna need. So you've already said doctor Sherry that sometimes you will make the assessment like, Okay, this maybe feels like a case that is more than I can manage. Maybe I need to make a referral to a therapist or a psychi interests in someone else? Can you tell us what that? Then collaboration process looks like between like yourself and the therapist when you have a patient who is seeing both of you. Great question, And to be honest, I don't think this is done as well as it should be because a lot of the big hurdles that I face in my practice is knowing what therapists it's covered under someone's insurance. So a lot of times in the office I don't really have that answer. So I'm giving them resources more so to find someone and then making them follow up so that I can have a check and balances, like, hey, you know, since more weeks, did you talk to anybody? Did you call anybody? But to say that there's a direct collaboration where I can say, Hey, I know you're seeing one of my patients. You know, can you tell me what you think? I can't honestly say that I do that often, so I will say sometimes with a psychiatrist, there's a lot of confidentiality there. If I'm really concerned about the patient not really adhering to their medications, but they're telling me they're seeing a psychiatrist and the counseling that's associed with the office. There's a special records release that a lot of officers will have that you know, talks about how sensitive that information is and asking the patients to allow me to be able to view that. And I have a few patients that I've done that for, especially when I'm really concern like if she's really taking on her man. She's telling me she's reporting this to me, but I'm not really certain because the way, you know, some some of the symptoms are really in between for me, and I really can't gauge, So that's when I was stopping there. In regards to, you know, connecting with the therapist, a lot of times what I mainly do is say, you know, have you seen someone you know? Is it covered by the insurance? I do like to make sure financially that's an okay issue for them because it's really would be horrible for someone to plug in with someone and have a good rapport but then can't afford it. And a lot of times, you know, once someone tries a therapist, if it doesn't go well for whatever reason, it's just some down from trying to go again. That's why I kind of like to make sure you're comfortable. Can you afford it? Have you guys talked about a plan? Because I want to make sure that I encourage them and give them some affirmation in the room as to yes, it may not be the best one right now, but hey, let's try again because this is really going to help you. So asking those questions and sometimes they say, you know, do you want me to reach out for them? You know, I might not be able to get much information, but would you like me to. Most times patients are feeling pretty good once they get a few sessions in but they don't feel like they need me to talk to them. And I can already see, like, you know, now they're back on track with their health, they're eating right, they just have a better mood in the office, And that in itself is good for me to know. And I usually just ask, you know, how frequently are you seeing them and and things like that. Yeah, And I do know that some therapists will get the release from the client and then send the primary care doctor like maybe a little right up every month just saying like, oh, they've been keeping their appointments, this is what we've been working on, you know, just so that the primary care doctor is kept in the loop about what's happening. Yes, yes, definitely. Yeah. Are there ways that you can think of that maybe both primary care doctors and therapists could do a better job of like making sure that we are kind of working as a treatment team in the best interests of the client. I think there needs to be more collaboration. A lot of times, you know, the person that you see for primary care is at a completely different institution, and a lot of times you know the therapist and may be seeing maybe private doesn't necessarily work with a health care organization. So I mean, that's a great question. I think that's something that needs to be explored. You know, do we have you know, local questions where you know, we invite primary care doctors in the community and surpuce in the community kind of collaborate together, you know, if you are working with the health care organization that does have the therapist right there. I know a lot of institutions they have like care coordination meetings, so at least you know, everybody's all the players are in the room, which is ideally would be the great way to go for primary care in general and just how we approach you know, each individual patient in front of us. But this is something that still needs to be worked on. I know, for me, I don't really have like a direct connection their therapists where I can say, hey, let's meet up and see, you know, if we can chat a little bit about what's going on with a few of my clients because really, honestly, my patients are they're scattered as far as who they're seeing, so it makes it really difficult to kind of keep that collaboration direct communication going, got you, Yeah, And I do also know that lots of therapists will try and come and meet with like maybe the nursing staff. You know, I know, primary care doctors. Your schedule is really busy, but sometimes they can meet with like the office manager or whatever to kind of introduce themselves so that then there's a better idea of like who's in the community, so that when you need a referral for a therapist, you have some ideas about who you can send your people too. Yeah, that's like, honestly, if I don't think we've had anyone in our offer speak it that a lot with nursing services services in the community where they'll combine and drop a pamphlet and kind of give information. So then when you need someone who needs help at home, you're like, oh, yeah, I remember this question to drop five. So I think that actually would be a great idea if a lot more therapists could, like, you know, make maybe a one page pacelet or brochure about what they do their expertise and kind of drop it at the office kind of just get some face to face and that will help the collaboration too. And it also helps too with certain websites like Therapy for Black Girls, where you can actually read a profile or I'm another one I love is psychology today is well too. That's kind of what I pull up in the office to kind of get a little background and share with patients. Mm hmmm. So that, Sherry, I know that you are involved in training. And of course there has been lots of media coverage, lots of stories and all of these things coming out about black women, in particular in our relationships with our physicians and how you know, sometimes black women are not believed, or the doctors will think that they have a higher pain tolerance than they do, that they're mad seeking, like all of these things. And so I would love to hear you talk about, like what kinds of things you're doing in training your future physicians to kind of make sure that we or you know, teaching them to be more culturally responsive. Oh. Absolutely, So I'll share one initiative I've done. So basically, what we're talking about here, what you've mentioned is talking about you know, there's not equity in regards to how we view patients and how we're treating them, right, especially when we're talking about the black woman so in particular, So part of my role is not only being a primary care doctor, but I'm also an assistant professor at Rowanbostypathic Medicine, so I might on the same campus and because of that, I get a lot of trainees. So one way I've kind of helped to start tackling this topic is by introducing a health equity module within one of my courses. So traditionally it's said it's to shift. But traditionally what would happen is we would learn all the medicine right, all the hard stuff, the cancers, the chronic diseases and how to treat them, and our focus was so much on that. But we're realizing now, you know, if we're really going to tackle the conversation on healthcare, we have to start talking about social determines of health, how people live, work and everything around them, and how that plays a part in their care and end. As much as we know that's a factor, we're not translating that in medical education. So what happened would be, you know, you get a one week course or maybe in your family medicine rotation, you would be trained on like, hey, yeah, I don't forget about the fact that gun violence is important, or trauma is important or things like that. But no, one makes that connection, makes that correlation, and it's always done in isolation. So with my course, what I decided to do is, as you're learning the medicine, there would be different module readings and videos that I would ask students to read and as part of their grade to really get them to say, you know what, there was a social component to this too. It's not just black or white. A lot of patients exist in the gray, and a lot of times it takes a little bit more effort on our side to really understand the community we're working in and the people were serving. So different readings on racism in medicine and what that looks like, the pain bias we have for people of color versus people who are you know, not colored. Things such as why other components of diet and other cultures impact diabetes, or how someone's job or what they're doing plays a huge part and how their health translates. So just different health disparities amongst different groups and what could be the cause of that, not just O, hey, they don't like to go to the doctor, they don't like to be screened. But there's more to it. You know, There's also been a historical you know, background as to why there's a lack of trust among minority communities, courts, physicians do we understand that? So part of introducing that and being involved in that in curriculum really allows students to understand how their advocates and understand how it's more than just diagnosed and treat them with medication. And have you found that as a whole, like medical education is moving towards including more of this in the curriculum, yes, absolutely, And a lot of it too was is because the students, a lot of students, especially around the time when you know, police brutality was becoming a huge thing and was really you know, in the forefront of the news. And I don't know if you're familiar, but there was a a guy in that was staged by medical students across the country where it was a white coat for black lives, and students in their white coat would be in a large area of a tri m and beyond, you know, on the ground and their white coats protesting and standing up for how you know, racism and policepitality is a public health issue. So it really got all the way up through the training boards and the governing bodies that kind of oversee curriculum and how things are carried out in medical schools where they're like whoa, you know, students are asking for more education on this. You didn't want to be more involved, especially when it comes to social injustices, especially when it comes to addressing disparities among groups. So we kind of had no choice but to say, oh, we gotta do something about it. So there's a lot of curriculum at different schools that's popping up and being able to start to address this. But then what happens to the people who, like myself, have already graduated, I'm done with residency, I'm in training. What if I don't feel comfortable with this? And I think that is where you really have to start to tackle it, because you know, our patients in the Committe are seeing these doctors, but we have to make sure it's not just the people who are coming up, but how do we address and educate the people who are already out there? Right? And I know for lots of therapists, um, you know we of course, I have licenses in our states as well, and for a lot of states, one of the continuing education credits you have to get is around multiculturalism and diversity or something related to that. Is there the same kind of requirement for physicians. Yes, and a lot of that will be in the semi trainings or different conferences you'll go to where you'll get the credit for maintaining your licensure. We'll definitely get that. But I mean, even part of that, I feel like we have to challenge it a bit more because how many times have you heard the word diversity? How many times have you heard the word cultural competency? And quite frankly, some people are out there and they can't even recognize their own bias, right, I mean, hence why we see what's happening to black women too? Right? So, yes, it's out there. It's like the terms are there, right, we throw it around, but are we truly dissecting what that means and really sitting back and say, hmmm, are we getting this right or not? Because we've been throwing this these words around for parts in time. These aren't new, but are we doing it the right way? Right? Right? So what tips do you have Dr Sherry for our listeners? You know you've already kind of shared a little bit about how you feel like patients can be stronger advocates for themselves. Do you have other tips related to how our listeners can maybe do a better job partnering with their primary care physicians. Absolutely, And if we're talking directly um in regards to the audience, especially when we're talking about therapy for black girls and when we're talking about black women. One of my favorite phrases when I have a woman of color in front of me going about everything, and you know, I can hear her speaking like I think I have this, but it's probably because I work too harder kind of minimizing her symptoms. I will pause and I will say to her, can you please take your superwoman cap off and leave it at the door. And a lot of times they end up looking at me and I'm I, guests, you don't need to be Superwoman in here. And I think that complex, which we're very familiar of, has been about in literature. You know a lot of people are aware, we don't realize that we carry that into the doctor's visit and it's in there, and part of I think the conversation needs to happen, especially when we're talking about, you know, what's happening with black women, especially when it comes to health care. It's also talking to black women and saying, hey, you know what, don't bring the superwoman complex and actually makes the time to advocate for yourself. So some things I tell people is don't multitask, like when it comes to your doctor's visits. So people will just be in the office like, oh, I have to carryup because I have to pick up the kids. You have to go make dinner, I have to do X, y Z. So when you're there, you're not really there. When you're there, you're planning for the next few hours. So pick a time to see your doctor when you have a break, you know, if you can, you have a babysitter, if you can, you can plan it when you're on vacation and the kids will be at school. Let's be intentional about how you approach it. At times, Yes, it's gonna be difficult because maybe it's an emergency visits, some things acutely going on. To still value the time you have up to you can really be there and be present and say, you know what, Doc, I have these concerns as much as yes stressed. It plays a huge part into our health. Do not say, oh, I haven't done with pain, but I think it's stressed because a lot of times to what I find is you'll present a complaint to the doctor, but you'll suppress it by almost adding your own commentary, Oh, it's probably nothing. I'm probably working too hard, you know, it's probably it's part of being a wife. Oh the chuch pain is there, But you know what, I just you know, I don't have time for myself, and you almost past, like cope right over it. And if you keep doing that, at some point, the person who's sitting across from you and taking notes will also start to do the same thing because you started to just minimize it and you don't put the urgency there too. So I think, especially when it comes to black women, don't minimize your knees. If it's a huge problem, you say that, doc, i've been having this chess pain. I really want to talk about it because I'm really worried about it, and that will bring my attention up. So I think again, leaving the complex, making the time for it, and really don't suppress what you're going through. And if you don't like an answer, you know what, I don't know the doctor who's actually gonna listen to you and advocate for yourself. Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that to share, because I think there can sometimes be like this whole difficulty challenging authority, right, And when you think about authority, you know, a doctor in a white coat, that kind of comes to mind. And so you know, hearing that it's okay to like ask for a second opinion, or it's I kind of push back on if your doctor says something that you don't quite agree with, like that it's okay to challenge them and ask him to explain. One of the things I always say to people is if the doctors I wouldn't attest, you know, whether that be blood work or an imaging test, you say, hey, doc, what are we doing this for? Like, what is this? What are we doing this for? What are we looking for? So you know, if it looks like exports positive per se, what would be the next step? What are we concerned about? If it's negative, what have we ruled out? What does that you know put us that east for? So, yeah, we should be encouraged and in the dialogue. And if you don't understand, and we've used big words, because trust me, I'm guilty of it to say I don't understand what you mean because you're playing that again. And don't be afraid of just say yes or not. Your head really asked the questions. I love those twos. So where can we find you? Dr Sherry? Where can we find you online? As well as any social media handles that you want to share? No problem so online. I have my own website. It's www dot Dr Magdalen Ferry dot com and you can see different things that I'm doing and even connect with me there. I also do have a Facebook page which is under Dr m Ferry, and I'm also on Instagram, so people often send me messages on Instagram. It's at Dr Magdala Sherry. H Well, thank you so much, Liker Shrry. All of that information will be included in the show notes for people to find. Thanks so much for chatting with us today. Thank you. I'm so thankful Dr Sherry was able to share her expertise with us today. To find out more information about her and her practice, visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session one oh three, and don't forget to show some support for our sponsor for this episode, Naturalisious. It's the world's first vegan performance hair care line that delivers the results of twelve products and only three. You can find the products and over twelve Sally stores nationwide, and you can also get ten off your purchase online by going to natural Sious dot net and using the promo code joy j o y at checkout. Remember that if you're searching for a therapist in your area, check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory, and be sure to visit our online store at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash shop, where you can find our guided affirmation, breakup journal and your Therapy for Black Girls T shirts and mugs. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care, the best, best, the best, the best po