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Welcome to the Therapy for a Black Girls podcasts, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information, visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. And while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session sixty seven of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. Today we have a special treat for all of the fans of the star show Power. Today we're on the couch with Tasha and Jane are ghosts St. Patrick For this conversation, I was joined by Dr Qvandra Perry. Dr Perry is a licensed psychologist in the state of Texas. She is currently a staff psychologist and assistant professor at two area hospitals and supervises medical and psychology trainees across developmental levels. Dr Perry is also owner of a private practice that targets individual and couples whose career or public lifestyles may offer limited safe avenues of emotional relief. Her specialties include depression, couple and family distress, spirituality and mental health, and clinical supervision consultation. Dr Perry and I discussed what kinds of concerns might bring Tasha and James sid therapy, how she might help them improve their communication, how she might help them work through their grief, and of course, she shared all of her favorite resources for couples. This episode does contain spoilers, so if you're not caught up with the new season, then you may want to hold off on listening. If you hear something while you're listening that you'd like to share, be sure to share it with us on social media using the hashtag tb G in Session. Here's our conversation. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Comandra, thank you for having me. I'm excited. I am excited too. So we are going to be talking about the st Patrick's from one of everybody's favorite show, well people who love it right, um Power, which is a show on Stars. Um. So we are going to be talking about both Tasha and James st. Patrick because Covandra practices couples therapy, and so we're gonna be talking about if Pasha and James came to her as a client, some of the things that she might do with them or talk with them about. Definitely. Yeah. So for anybody who may not be a fan of power, who needs maybe a little bit of background on the couple, can you give a little synopsis of like some of the things that have happened with them as a couple. Sure, so, Um, for those who may not know what's going on with this couple, Tasha and James st. Patrick are very high powered couple. They live a really lavish lifestyle. UM. But part of the problem in the relationship is that James is also known as Ghosts and so that's his street name. He's a very wealthy drug dealer and so over the course of their marriage, he's made efforts to try to get out of the drug game. But that has caused some problems both um in their relationship and for them individually. And some of the issues that they have are you know, just some of the affairs that have gone on. So they have both cheated on one another, they have both um lost their daughter most recently, and have also had some other traumas than their relationship and individually, so this couple has definitely had a lot going on over the years. So you mentioned, uh, well, first let me ask what do you think because there has been so much going on with Tasha and goes right, Um, what do you think would be the thing that would actually bring a couple like Jeans and Tasha to therapy? You know, one of the things that I have been excited to see this season is Tasha's um seems like there's something going on with her where she's wanting to try to understand what's going on with herself. And so they decided to go to like a group couples therapy, grief group. And so maybe Tasha might be the person to say, you know what, James, we're having some issues, why don't we try a couple of therapy since you haven't been that open to going to the grief therapy with other couples, right, because he did go to that first meeting, but he didn't make it back to the second one exactly exactly, And so they wouldn't be unlike any other couple because the research actually shows that couples soul for for a long time before they actually make it into couples therapy, right right, So yeah, they would be struggling, like you said, for some time, maybe before they even came in for for accouncil plan. Definitely. Yeah. So you also mentioned UM, which I think is a really great point to to discuss that there has been some tension in the relationship because James, you know, started the nightclub UM and it seems like it originally started as like a way to kind of wash the money, so to speak, so like a front for the drug business, but then he got really into it UM, and so there has been some tension of Okay, like is he moving into wanting to do more of this kind of corporate life and like have businesses and these kinds of things, versus really paying attention to the drugs, which it seems like it's what Tasha really wants. Yes, Yes, And I think that's been the hugest thing that has come between them because one of the things that I've noticed is that that is the direction that James seems to want want to go, but Tasha, for some reason, is not so sure that his new lifestyle, his new career path is going to probably give them the same sense of security that they have, and so I think some of the conversations that they have with the arguments, what's missing is let's talk about some of the emotions behind maybe why I want to do this. You know, I would talk to them both about what do you what do you like about him being in the drug game? What do you not like about it? And so I would try to highlight some of their shared emotions that they don't even get a chance to talk about. So maybe we both really like this one part of it, but we both have some real concerns and fears and rightfully so mm hmmm. Yeah. And I would also wonder, I think, for her, if there's a piece of kind of being left behind. I mean, and I think that's probably a very valid concern given what we have seen unfold um and and some of the seasons. Right, but I think there may be also a fear of her thinking like, Okay, I fit into his life in this way, but if he's moving in this direction, then do I fit or do I still have a place there? Yes? And I think that's key because what we see a lot of is Tasha doing exactly that which is fitting into his life. But I don't see a whole lot of James pouring back into her or encouraging her to find out, you know, what are the things that you like and how can I support your goals and dreams? So that would be something that I would work with them on, is how can we both support one another in the development of our relationship goals as well as our individual goals. Right, So, something that you mentioned before is that there have been multiple affairs. Um. I think only one for correct but multiple for James. UM. And so you know, at this point, I don't even really know what's happening in the relationship. And this may be like a parallel process kind of thing, right because they probably don't either, I really know what's happening. So so talk more about, you know, like what you have seen going on with like the multiple kind of indiscretions in the relationship. Um. When I think back to when the show very first started and James started, uh, you know, seeing Angela, it seems like when Tasha had that little small short fling that she had with Sean, it seems like that was more out of revenge. I'm confused. I'm not really sure what's going on. I need some attention, but that didn't really seem to last very long, and then most recently when she was I can't remember his name right off, but when she was having that affair with the attorney, it seems like that was a more intentional, thought out type of relationship. But for both of them, it seems like because their relationship is lacking some depth and some honesty, they are seeking that elsewhere. And so some of the conversations that I've had with people that I know the controversy has been, well, you shouldn't like his relationship with Angela, But when I ask people, what is it that you like about his relationship with Angela, what they really like is their authenticity with one another, how they can talk about just about anything, and they support one another things more genuine with Angela than than with Tasha. And so what I would do then, when we have, you know, whether it's one person who cheated or two people, what I would start with them on is putting some boundaries around the marriage. But that's with the understanding that I've established the fact that they both want to remain in this relationship. And so if I have that understanding that they do want to stay in the relationship, let us try to figure out what kind of context um are we going to have with this person? So, for example, do we need to limit our conversation with this person but we need to block social media? Do we need to delete phone numbers? Things like that? And then also who are we going to talk about um and talk to while we're working through these tough issues, because not everybody on the outside is going to support us staying together and so that can also be detrimental to us trying to work through an affair. Can you say more about that, munder because I think that that's an interesting point that is oftentimes overlooked. Sure, the part about putting boundaries around who are we going to talk to? Yeah, So for example, you know a lot of times I found in my work it's really hard for a couple to work through an affair. Is one person who probably helped you to lie, help you to cheat, and things like that. You know, if you're continuing to have the same type of relationship with that one person is gonna not really add to building trust in your marriage or your relationship. And so I think it's really really important to figure out, you know, am I going to have to start limiting the information that I would normally tell maybe a loved one or a best friend or something like that in support of rebuilding my marriage and my relationship. Okay, so that's a good point, and I think in this situation, right, a lot of that would be Tommy. Um, but of course he is like so close. I think to both of them that I think that that would cause, you know, like lots of tension if if they were saying, like, Okay, now we can't be friends with Tommy, yes, and I think that's I think that would be a very hard call. But I think their relationship with Tommy is such that they could both sit down and tell him, Hey, we're gonna, you know, we want to try to work things out, and so here are some of the things that we're going to try to do differently. Now. Whether Tommy respects that, that's you know, that's another thing. But I think he would be open to at least hearing about it. And you also mentioned, um, you know that you would be doing all of this work with the understanding that they both have decided that they want to continue in the marriage. And so you know, at this point, like I said, I'm not sure really what's happening with their marriage. So I think Ghost had ended the relationship with Angela or she ended it with him after like he went to jail and stuff. Right like that kind of got wrapped up. But it seems like the relationship with the lawyer only ended after her daughter died, right like after Raina was killed. Um, that's when she ended that relationship. So we really haven't seen them check in about where the relationship actually stands right now exactly. And so I think that is one of the things that I noticed the most about their relationship is that because they have been together so long, they've been through so much together, I think they fall in this um with this idea that a lot of us make. This assumption actually that a lot of us make is that just because you know someone, you think you know everything about them, and so we shouldn't have to have very intentional conversations. But James and Tasha definitely do a lot of mind reading and they just go with the flow, and they don't really have a whole lot of uh meaningful and purposeful conversations. They argue a lot. They argue a lot, So can you say more about the mind reading, like what that is and what that might look like in ghosts and times relationships and then in other people's relationships. Sure, so with mind reading, you know, it's the idea that you know, I should not have to tell ghosts that I'm sad and that I'm hurt because we just lost our daughter. He should automatically know that, or for ghosts on his you know, on his side, he may think something like I shouldn't have to ask my wife for support or tell her that I feel really disrespected when she doesn't seem to want to hear my advice or my opinion about something that's going on in our relationship. And so what happens then is the backstory that we're telling ourselves UM actually helps to feed our behavior. So, for example, fault, if Tasha is saying, you know, um, James isn't doesn't want to pay any attention to me, he's being selfish, he's not thinking about me or the kids, he doesn't love me. Instead of talking to him about that, then I will just go and find the love and security in another relationship, which is what we've seen her do. And same thing for James. We've seen him feel really let down when Tasha doesn't seem to be that supportive of him opening up nightclubs, and so then he finds that support and encouragement in Angela. And so we all experienced that in our relationships, where we make those same assumptions. But what we should be doing is saying, I think this is what you might want. Am I correct on that? And here's how I can Here's how I might be able to help you with it. So what are some ways because it does seem like you and you've mentioned this a couple of times, that it doesn't feel like Tasha and James really talk with one another, Like they kind of address whatever is going on, but there aren't really real conversation so to speak, that we actually see on screen. Um, So, for for a couple who seems to have lost their way with communication so greatly and like just are not really talking with one another, how would you help them even get back on the same page in terms of communication. Yeah, that's an excellent question. So one of the things I would do is first point out to them that their conversations seemed to be lacking validation. And I think one of the misconceptions about validation is that people think validation means for Freeman and so I would really educate them that your job in a conversation would be just to listen and understand before you respond, because right now what we see them do is justify and defend and yale and blame. So I would leave their conversations by modeling for them how to validate one another and how to um draw there but relationship closer by having empathy for one another. And so by that I mean I would point out a lot of the emotions, and I would highlight that they both share some of the same emotions. I would encourage them to um do things to build up their emotional bank account, because right now James and Tasha are very very good at putting on public appearances. You know, they look amazing together, but they don't really spend any quality time together. And so I might take them back to the drawing board. Joy I would say something like, so, when you first met each other, what was that you liked about James? What was it that you liked about Tasha? And then help them to build on those things by just starting from the bottom, asking questions, even things that you think you might already know, So, who are my two best friends? Kind of more superficial level things you know, they call it the love map, but that think things about what's my favorite movie, what's my favorite color? On down to the more serious questions, what are your personal goals? What are two things that you fear the most? What are your goals for our for our marriage? And so those are the kinds of things that can help them to rediscover one another and connect emotionally. So I want to hear more about this love map. Where where does this come from? How does this work? Yeah? So love map comes from a famous researcher, Dr John Gottman and his wife, And so it's based on the idea that when we get in relationships, it's really important that we have a solid foundation. So they use it with this idea based on the house. So the the best house is going to be based on a good foundation. And so part of that love map is if I know my partners fears, desires, goals, things like that. When we have those unexpected turns in our lives along this journey, so for example, a depth of a child, of miscarriage, death of a parent, loss of the job, we can handle those things by going back to the drawing board. Okay, so I know that my husband's ultimate goal is to be an entrepreneur. I know that my wife values family time, so knowing the answers to those questions and the love map is really going to be our roadmap for the relationship. So is this like an actual exercise that you do with clients. Yes, so it can be done both in session, but most of the time it is assigned outside of session. So Dr John Godman actually has cards but sometimes UM. For me as a clinician, I give the give the clients the questions, and I tell them you don't have to ask every question because the goal is for it to be something fun and meaningful. It's not for us to get into an argument because you thought my favorite code it's red and it's blue. So it can be done in a lot of different way whatever is most meaningful to the couple. Okay, nice, Nice, So I'm glad you brought up the idea, UM, and we have talked a little bit about like the death of their daughter, which is you know, something we saw at the end of last season. The new season kind of started with that, UM. But I do think the loss of a child is clearly a very traumatic experience for lots of couples. UM. And so can you talk about, you know, what some of that work might look like if you had clients who came in with that kind of a situation. Sure, I think it would be the same as as I would work with them um in an affair. So I would want get them to shift some of their current focus from the pain, and I, as a clinician, would want to know tell me all about Raina. You know, when was she born, any wonderful stories around how she was born. Talk to me about you know, what she liked but she didn't like? What are your fondest memories? And things like that. So I wouldn't focus so much initially UM on the traumatic event. I would try to put some emotional distance between that and get the couple to work together to let's reflect on some of those wonderful things. And then once they're on the same page with those kinds of things, then we can maybe move into some of the grief work of what will you what do you miss most about her? What kinds of things do you want to do as a family to honor her memory. So they're already starting to do some of those things, or maybe James is but one thing in particular, I would do is really encourage James to be more vulnerable, because it sounds like Tasha is there and she's ready to talk about those things. And I think sometimes in the Black community it's a struggle for men to be vulnerable. And I think part of that is because of the messages that society sends out is that you need to be strong, you need to keep it together, and they carry that into the relationship. And so I think it would be important for um Tasha in this situation too, let him know, you know, hey, I'm still gonna respect you tomorrow morning. If you cry on my shoulder tonight, you can you can be both strong and vulnerable at the same time. So you mentioned condo, this whole idea of like putting some emotional distance there so you might not start with addressing the grief. Can you tell me what that's about, Like why why you would want to do that? Yes, I think that would be based on what I have observed in the couple, and so, um, every couple is different. So for example, if the couple tells me that like in this case with Tasha and Goes, they are arguing a lot about the situation, or there are a lot arguing a lot more since the death of their daughter than I might want to put some emotional distance in there. But if this couple comes in, they're both grieving, they're both wanting to talk about it, then you can just jump right in. Okay, god it. So that would be just a decision you would make based on this couple. Yes, okay. So you also mentioned that you feel like um ghost isn't necessarily feeling very very vulnerable, but it does seem like he has those moments, and in those moments he actually calls Angela, which which feels like it's kind of connected to, you know, your earlier UM discussion about you know, that they have maybe a more authentic conversation or there's more space in that relationship to kind of talk about all these different things versus you know, just work or whatever. Absolutely, and one of the things that I would do in that case if I would ask Ghost um what keeps him from reaching out to Tasha in those moments, and so he might say, for example, well, I just think she doesn't want to hear it, or I don't want to bother her because she's got her own stuff going on, which is some of the things that I would you know I've heard before, so I will point out to them again. So that's an example of how we mind rate and we actually miss opportunities for closer connection. And so I might ask him, so, when you did try to reach out to Tasha before, maybe when you were feeling vulnerable or really sad and lonely, how did she respond? And I would help the couple to kind of work through that and see what was what message did he take from her response that shut him down completely? And I do think now, of course, this is all fiction, right, so there are complications that make us tied in because they wanted to keep watching the show. But I also think it's interesting in some ways how now Tasha has almost kind of developed this alliance with Angela. Um, you're interesting to see how this all plays out. And I don't know that that necessarily what happened in real life, UM, but you know, it almost feels as if there is this acceptance that, Okay, she's going to be a part of our life, so let me like see how this can be helpful to me kind of a thing exactly. I was reflecting on that too not so long ago, about how they both call Angela and and the funny thing is that the other person doesn't know it, but they have both develop their relationships with her for various reasons. Mm hmmmm. Yeah. So are there other things that you have seen with this couple that you think would be important to kind of talk about that you know, you see with other couples that come into your practice. Sure, I would really uh, once setting some boundaries around the relationship, if they're wanting to stay together, I would really want to explore the context of their affairs, um and by that, I mean let's look at what was going on with each person individually at the time the affair happened, as well as what are some relationship factors. So, so individual factors could be things like, you know, well I was at a time where I was working a lot, um, I had a crazy school schedule, I was feeling depressed or anxious. So those are just some things that can um contribute, not necessarily cause an affair, but those are some things to look at and discuss the therapy. And also looking at relationship factors. So if I look at the relationship at the time that you know, one person stepped out or both of us stepped out, what was going on in our relationships, So we were not being intimate, we were not spending that much quality time. We have a lot more arguments, And the purpose of having those discussions is so that once the couple has hopefully moved past the affair, what it does is it gives them information about some triggers if that if those things come up in the future. So, for example, say there are six months to a year out, somebody's work schedule changes. Um, we're arguing a lot more than both of us can say, Hey, we probably need to sit down and regroup, so that way we don't set up the perfect the perfect storm to to have someone step out in our marriage again, our relationship again. And it does seem like it's important to kind of talk about UM. Well, even though we don't necessarily know that they've made the decision to stay in the relationship, their behaviors look as if they are going to be continuing in the relationships, and so I think it is important to maybe talk about UM for other couples who have decided to stay together after there has been infidelity, Like what that healing really looks like? Yes, it is a very painful, um painful process. I know that a lot of couples think that they cannot move um past an affair, but it definitely can't happen if it does take work, It does take commitment, and it actually takes a lot of uh initial bending or flexibility on the part of the person who has cheated. So, for example, I think one thing that people struggle with is in the initial part of moving past an affair, I might have to give you more information than I normally would otherwise. So for example, instead of me coming straight home, I might have to call you and say, hey, I'm going to stop by the store because I know that in the past I would just do whatever instead of coming straight home. And so it's not expected that that type of behavior or checking in is continued for the duration of the relationship UM so much. But I might have to do that. I might have to be willing to let you check my records or things like that. So it has to be something that is reasonable to both partners. But the person who has UM who has cheated has to be willing to bend UM quite a bit initially to start to rebuild that trust. But it's definitely, in my experience, one of the hardest things for a couple to get past UM in therapy doable, but definitely hard. And what about for someone who makes the decision not to stay. You know, that's a good question. I'm glad you asked, because couples therapy is not you know, the goal isn't to keep the couple together. It's to help them have meaningful conversations UM that they can't have outside of the session. And so sometimes that has actually happened where the person says, you know, me understanding what was going on with you, with me, with the relationship UM through this process. I just really don't think that this is that this is for me, And sometimes I think, you know, joy, I think it really comes down to this idea of forgiveness versus reconciliation, because I think sometimes the person is so afraid of letting go UH that they struggle to see what great work the person is doing now, what great efforts the person is doing now. And so sometimes when I have asked, you know, what's going on now that's triggering you? And I think you have to learn to be able to do that. Am I reacting to triggers from things that happened in the past, or are there things that's going on right now that's triggering me. And so what I try to teach my couples is the difference between for giveness and reconciliation. So forgiveness, that's a personal choice. So I have to decide what will it take for me to be able to forgive you, and reconciliation takes two. So that's both of us. And I do think that that is a really important distinction, right because I could forgive you but still decide that I don't want to continue in the relationship, absolutely absolutely, And there's no you know, there's no right or wrong in that. That's a personal choice, but I think it, uh, you know, the other partner has to be able to respect that if that ends up being a decision. So another thing that it feels like maybe important to talk about, and maybe this is something that you work with clients on as well. UM feels like it is around like what's going on with their parenting, um, you know, because it seems like the children are getting to well into a lot of things that black parents just don't know. And of course, you know, kids do stuff and you can't be with them all the time, right, But it does feel like there has been a bit of a breakdown in terms of the communication even in their parents thing. Um so what might that look like for you know, couples or for ghost in Tasha, UM like to help them maybe get back on the same page in terms of what's going on with the kids. Yes, one of the things that I talked to parents about is the importance of having a solid uh relationship. So in this case, because they are still together, working on improving the husband and wife relationship typically tends to improve the mother and father relationship because unfortunately, I think kids are often the scapegoat of what the real issue is in a relationship, and so it's sometimes it's easier for us to argue about, you know, Terik is getting out of hand, when really the real issue is I don't want to be here in this relationship thing. You don't either, and so it just it manifests, as you know, a lack of supervision. It manifests as you know, uh, pitting one parent one child against the other parents, which we don't We don't thankfully see a lot of that in this in this case, but it definitely can happen. And so what I would work with them on is once the relationship is secure, Let's figure out what are our goals for the kids, what kinds of things that we value as parents, What are those things that we really want to make sure that we convey to our kids. And so I really really appreciated this last episode where Tasha decided to be very authentic with Terik and tell him, you know, I'm sorry that we've lie and here is why. And it seems like it worked pretty well. I mean, it's not magic realized, is not magical, you know, where he suddenly decides to become clean, but it definitely can have a very meaningful and powerful impact, right, And I do I'm glad you said that because I think, um, you know, we've talked a lot about you know, the couples, like if they were coming into therapy, um. But it also seems like, clearly, especially right now, that like family therapy could be really helpful for them given the law sabrena um. And it does feel like that could be a very high potential for like to re to become the scapegoat, right because he you know, in some ways kind of was the reason why Arena was in the position to be shot. And you know, it feels like there has been a lot of like spotlight on him, but not so much attention paid to all of the situations that we're going on that even allowed to to be involved with Keenan and all of them in the first place. Yes, and I'm glad you mentioned that because something else that I would find out for them, what is their support system like, because we don't see any extended family for the two of them. You know, sometimes we would see Tasha's mom, but you know, and I look back on those episodes, she wasn't as you know, encouraging Toatasha or supportive, and then we see um Keisha. She's been very supportive of Tasha in her own way. But I would try to figure out what are some other, uh support systems that we can put in place to help them, you know, in terms of their parenting. And so because of the kind of lifestyle that they lived, one of the things that you know, we can point out is, Okay, it looks like one of the drawbacks is you don't have a whole lot of support because you can't let a whole lot of people in because of the kind of lifestyle that you have. And so I would try to help them to see that that's one of the major disadvantages of that illegal lifestyle. Right, So, what are some of your favorite resources for a couple of school founder, What kinds of things that you find yourself recommending over and over again? Yeah, I recommend any book UM or activity by John Goffman so on his website John Goffman. UM. There's also the kind of therapy that I do. One of the kinds of therapy. The therapist that I do is UM Integrated Behavioral Couples Therapy. And so one of the creators of that particular therapy UM has created a website. You got a grant and so the relationship and sorry, the website is called our Relationship dot com. It's a wonderful, wonderful website and the couple can just log in or they can join and they can start to do some activities together. UM. So they have coaches on there, so they don't you don't have to come into therapy. But that's something that couples can do, you know, self pace on their own time. And then in terms of another book for couples, as I see a lot of couples who are Christians, and other wonderful resources Love and Respect by in with some Eggorage and um, that book offers some very practical advice, but it comes from a spiritual background. And where can people find you online? Provinder? Your website as well as any social media handles you want to share. Sure, so my website is dr q Perry dot com and my Twitter and Instagram handles are the same, dr Q Perry. Very nice. So you said that's Twitter and Instagram. Okay, all right, Well, thank you so much for a chatting with us today to break down and everything going on with to Shane Goes. We'll have to keep watching the season right to see how it unfolds to see if any of your predictions kind of come true. Yes, we will, and thank you so much for having me. I've really really enjoyed it absolutely, thank you. It was so great to chat with Dr Perry. She definitely helped me to think about some dynamics of the show differently. To check out the books she mentioned and the information about her practice, be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session sixty seven. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit the directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory and if you want to continue this conversation and join a community of other sisters who listened to the podcast. Join us over in the Thrive tribe at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash tribe. Make sure you answer the three question is that our asked to gain entry. Thank you all so much for joining me again this week, and I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take get care