Session 59: On the Couch with Nova Bordelon

Published May 30, 2018, 7:00 AM
Today's episode is an On the Couch Session with Nova Bordelon from the hit OWN show, Queen Sugar. For this episode I am joined by Shena Tubbs, LPC. Shena and I chatted about some of the concerns that might bring Nova to therapy, how the Bordelon family history adds perspective to Nova's concerns, some of the techniques she might use with her in therapy, and she shared some of her favorite resources in case you might have similar concerns. 

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Welcome to the Therapy for a Black Girls Podcasts, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information, visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. And while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session fifty nine of the podcast. Today, we're back with another on the Couch episode. I know we haven't had one in a while, but I'm very excited to share this one with you. For this conversation, I'm Joe By, licensed professional counselor Shena Tubbs, and we're talking all about Nova boord, a Law, one of the characters from Ava du Vernaise hit series on Own Queens Sugar. I'm such a fan of Queen Sugar. For one, it's set in the sugar cane fields of Louisiana, which is definitely home for me, as I grew up right across the street from a sugar cane field. But it's also some of the most beautifully shot work and well written stories that I think you'll find anywhere on TV today. So I'm excited to dig into more about Nova's character and some of the concerns that might bring her to therapy. A little bit more about our guest, Sheina Tubbs is a licensed professional counselor and certified sex Addiction Therapist candidate in Houston, Texas. Shena specializes in treating women with intimacy disorders, trauma, and sexually compulsive behaviors are addictions. She is also old trained in some of the leading models for trauma and emotion regulation such as E M, d R and Dialectical behavior Therapy. When not seeing clients, Sheina can be found hosting her podcasts Love Junkie, which focuses on healing and recovery from sexual addictions and co dependency, and managing the Black Girl's Heel Group, a community focused on offering tools for Black women to heal from unhealthy relationships, low self esteem, and trauma. If you hear something you want to share with others while you're listening, be sure to share it on social media using the hashtag TBG in Session. Here's our conversation. So, thank you so much for being with us today, sheina, thank you. I'm happy to be here. So I am very excited about talking about your character. So who did you choose to talk about with us today? I chose to do Nova Borda from the show Queen Sugar, one of my favorite favorite shows. I love everything Eva Duverne. So can you give us a little bit of background for people who may not be familiar with Queen Sugar who don't um watch the show, give us a little bit of background about Nova. Yeah, so just Queen Sugar. Um. It's set a Louisiana and it follows the lives of three siblings who inherit a sugar king farm from their father. And the show follows the lives of each of the siblings and how they intertwine in the line and match up with the lives that they had before and the new life they have now and then also come to grips with the things that their father dealt with with having the farm. And Nova is the oldest of the three and she is a journalist and a Black Lives Matter activists, a community leave leader, and an herbalist. And she's soulful, a lover. She's a great character. I think she's a very compelling character to like. It feels like there are a lot of layers to her, which I'm sure we will get into. Um So, what als of of the things that you have seen Nova kind of go through on Queen Sugar or struggle with that you think might lead her into therapy. Yeah, so it's interesting and thinking about Nova think I was able to think of two things that might bring her into therapy, even though there are probably other issues underneath those that would she would find out about or gain awareness of when she got there. So the two things that I thought that she would come for are this series of failed relationships and wanting to be able to find a partner that doesn't end um with a lot of conflict. And then also just seeing her progression. I was thinking that maybe needing to find her voice or needing to have a safe space to find her voice as it changes in her activism work. Um um as it's it's grown based on the needs of the community. Guarant you Okay, so talk to me more about like the relationship A piece like, what what have you seen that you feel like would be something that would bring her into therapy related to the relationships. Yeah, so she we've seen her have three significant relationships and in spite of great initial chemistry, they all end up ending and we see that either from the start they're either not good fits or maybe they are good fits, but she finds conflicts with each of them, and you even seeing no but talk about this and she says that in all of her relationships she was looking for the end before it even starts. And with du Bas, which who was our latest love interests, she talked about how she didn't see the end and it was scary to her, and sure enough, at the first sign of conflict, even though there was a it was a legitimate one. Instead of her engaging moving closer to it, she ran and she ran really hard. Okay, so that was the most recent um love interests, like you mentioned, but the other two relationships, would do you see um kind of had that happened there? Yeah? So um Nova was initially UM involved with Calmen who it was a white cop who was married and so he just seemed like as if he would be then tithesis of what she's looking for as a Black Lives Matter activists and then also just someone who was married. And so from the beginning there's already a wall to intimacy, and there's a wall to getting getting closer. And then the second love interest that I'm thinking of is Sean Tal And I can't remember if Seantal was another journalist but or another activist. I think he was an activist. She was an activist, and so and them clashing on on their viewpoints and not being able to rectify it and communicate. And so I see this this trend in Nova's relationships where there is conflict, there is tension, and instead of moving closer to see if there's a way to compromise and work through it, there's an immediate cut off and there's an immediate exit of the relationship. Okay, So that that sounds like a great conceptualization. Um, and do you think that we have seen anything from UM like the history perspective that kind of gives you some insight into like why she might be behaving this way in her relationships? Yeah, Um, well yes, and no, so no restricts me as someone who has UM an avoidance attachment style, meaning that it's really difficult for her to make close relationships. Now, this doesn't mean that you can't have friends. Actually, people who are avoidance may have lots of friends, be really popular. But it's really the definition is really about how many people they intimately let into their lives. Um, and those that they are vulnerable with and let see them quote unquote and um. So as far as where this might have come from, we see that her that their mother died when they were younger, and I want to say that she was old enough to to exit, because Ralph Angel talks about when their mom died that she immediately left New Orleans. And so I wonder about just the nature of the relationships in the house, Um, how close we're parents, how close were parents to each of them? Because typically children when they were born, they they tend to be more dependent or more open to relationship. Is really a learned behavior to say, Okay, I can't really trust you. I'm going to do this all of myself because if I depend on anyone then I'm going to be failed. And so we're getting little glimpses on things that happened, and you know, I'm thinking about this. I was like, how much do I spoil of the season. I just have to say, you know, like we see in season two that there is some infidelity concerns um and in their parents relationship and so and dad wasn't there for a while Alan, So how much of the abandonment or maybe the sense the felt sense of abandonment comes into play with her saying I'll leave you before you leave me. Yeah, I definitely was picking up on that. And I don't think we have to worry about spoilers because the season has ended, UM, but I will issue a spoiler alert at the beginning of the episode just in case anyone has not heard it. But I do think I think this season is when we saw UM, you know, the whole issue of infidelity, infidelity between her parents come out, and I do think that that shed a lot of light on UM the way that she shows up in relationships, because it sounds like there was some modeling of like not being able to trust that went on between mom and dad. So the second issue that you mentioned UM that might bring her into therapy is related to kind of finding her voice in terms of activism. So can you say more about that. Yeah, So in her work, she she really advocation works for the Lower Night, Lower Nights Lord and then beyond, and she's always really pride of herself and speaking the truth about injustice, and she does so directly and plainly and fearlessly and um, just really calling things as they are and not sure recoating them. And also she's very she's always been very vocal whenever people try to pathologize black people and demonize them with racist systemic practices. And so you watch her um kind of hit these different roadblocks and her activism work, which she takes with stride, but then she meets someone who gives her advice to exploit the racism of the people that they're fighting against, and so in doing so, it seems like to others that she's going to the other side because she has to adopt some of the language. And so as a result, you see her get a lot of backlash and a lot of resistance from people who firmly consider her a hero and UM and how this really communal field feel. And then there's all this animosity, and so I would imagine that there would be a lot of grief and losing these connections with people she has considered family. UM. And also I think in the activistsm world, or at least what I've seen, and and her UM part is that there's a lot of polarizing views on each side, and so being able to come to therapy and have a neutral space to talk out what she might be thinking and the pros and the cons and what how would I feel if I say this, If it's okay for me to say this, do I feel like I'm actually compromising my values? Would be really beneficial for her. Yeah. And I also think that there may be something related to UM, you know, like an identity piece, right, Like if you kind of visualize and like, if it's core to her identity that she identified as an activist and now it feels like people are turning against her, um, would there be maybe some identity pieces that would be a challenge for her. Now Absolutely it's it's she actually selling out or she's still the same. No, but it looks front in a way, and it's not okay for it to look differently. Yeah, And it feels like this issue kind of clashed with the first issue, So the relationship piece kind of clash with the owning her voice piece in the ending of the relationship with her in Dubois. Did you say more about that? Yeah, So, um, it feels like so she broke off the relationship, right, and then he it looks like there was some time that passed and they hadn't spoken, and then he showed up at the Sugarcane Festival I believe is where he showed up right, Um, And it looks like there was a conversation around um. You know, like really like he didn't see her in the way that she saw herself. And so you know, it feels like she was really kind of honing into um, like owning her voice as an activist and not kind of wanting to be who he thought that she was, like really wanting to kind of say, no, this is actually who I am and I don't think you really see me. Yeah, And you know, I I think that's absolutely true, and there's a lot of value and I think that's something that's a really powerful quality that she has. But also when I think about just her consistent failed relationships, just the ability or the tendency to find a criticism in each of the relationships and for all the relationships or something that's wrong with them and correct me if you if you've seen something differently, but there's something wrong with the other person, and that's her way to exit the relationship. And so I'm all for only your voice and not changing to compromise to be in a relationship if it compromises your values. I just wonder if there is any space for any more dialogue, um, other than the ones that we saw on the screen, because they were they were very heated and they were very reactionary versus this is what I believe, this is what you believe. Is there any overlapping or common ground that we can work together on? Yeah, I mean, and of course that would be the beauty of having an actual real life client. Not we'll be able to see more of that, I mean, but definitely you know with his name is Clayton, you said, the police officer, Uh, Calvin Calvin Um. Yeah, So it feels like that relationship really was not gonna go anywhere anyway, because, like you said, there was always the wall to intimacy because he was already married. So I mean, in some ways you she kind of entered that with like knowing that it couldn't go too far because he's already committed in another relationship, or at least in the other relationship, um. And then it feels like the relationship with her and the other activists was was kind of short lived and we didn't see very much of it. So it feels like the relationship that played out the most on screen was the one between her and Duvoy, and it did feel like there was a very real connection, but she was afraid of it, which is kind of like what you mentioned. And so her way of kind of um, kind of avoiding those feelings and getting too close to those feelings may have been to kind of bolt at the first sign of trouble, which is what you said. And there's also something else that I would want to explore with Nova, and just in the aspect of her her and the role of sex in her relationships, you know, just watching her. And this could just be based on what what I do, And so my ears are more pert tonight and I might look for it more. But I just think about when she broke up with Calvin Um the first time you saw that there was a series of white men that she was sleeping with, and kind of this kind of conquer and discard pattern. And sometimes the folks that I work with, they present with something called eroticized rage where you you look for partners to where you can kind of have this power and control um and subconsciously or even sometimes consciously, is because you're trying to not be hurt in the same way you were hurt before by someone who might remind you of them. And so I was just wondering, what the what the significance of her being with these men, especially the type of men she was with. And then also I was thinking, well, am I if I'm overthinking that, then is it just because she broke up with someone and she was looking for a rebound? But even then it seemed problematic because she didn't seem like she was happy at the end of any of these accounters, and she seemed like she was more ashamed or she was very irritable with them and kind of hiding from other people, hiding from ourselves. And so I would just I would be curious about the role of sex as far as a coping or a self student technique that's not really helping her and the way she was intending for it to do. So, yeah, it definitely seems like that would be something to further explore if you were actually working with somebody like her. For sure, UM. So so you're already kind of leading into my next question, which which is, UM, like, what kinds of strategies or techniques would you use with somebody like Nova to maybe work through some of these concerns. So with Nova, she takes a lot of pride and her self reliance and confidence, and I would want to make sure that I'm validating that and making meaning with that. However, with that and seeming like it's a very tender place, we would still I was still want to go to looking at the family of origin history and see where in her childhood that did she learn that it was safer to do things herself, um, that she it was difficult for her to commit to other people. We already talked about the abandonment on what role that her father is leaving played into that and any other family history of secrets that we don't know about yet, um, And then learning to walk through if it is if these techniques that these avoidance techniques are ways to protect herself from being heard in the same way again, are there other ways to engage and communicate other than fleeing or cutting people off? And so there's that, and then also I think probably um, some role playing to get pre actice in that communication UM, and also not being as reactive UM when she's feeling triggered. I I like to talk with my clients about how if their actions are hysterical, then that means it's historical and so hysterical, meaning that if they have this exaggerated or extreme reaction to something that might not be on a related scale of the events, like it doesn't match an intensity, then it might be because it might be because you're reacting to something that doesn't really have anything to do with the person in front of you, but more because of a childhood or a woan from earlier, and so UM, you know, going back to Davos UM the where she would when they went to the show and she felt like he put her own blast and wasn't there for her. UM. She kept repeating a few times that they were supposed to be on the same team, and I think and then she went back to Haisiana, and so I would want to spend time with her talking about when was the first time that she felt abandoned someone wasn't on her team, how that was painful for her, UM, how does she take steps now to make sure people don't do that to her, and are those steps actually helping her towards her goals of intimacy and connection, which I'm assuming is why she would be there in the room. And if it's not helping her, then how can we both validate that pain and hurt without pushing away other people who might be good partners and good loved ones to keep into our lives. That sounds awesome. So what do you think, UM would be some strategies that you would use around like the owning her voice and the identity piece related to activism. UM for owning your voice, I think just honestly, I think it would just be providing a listening an ear for her to play out all of the different variations without feeling to need to choose. I think. I think again, in her world, she there's a lot of absolutes. Either you're with us, you're against us, And so for her to just have the opportunity just to say whatever and to be wrong and to do that self discovery. Just offering a space for her to a nonnger's mental space, it would be my best technique for her because I feel like nova she she's already she's already very decisive you know, she doesn't have the problem of what do I say? What do I do? It's just um, if there's any guilt surrounding it, I would I would be concerned about. And so something that you kind of touched on that I think, UM likely a lot of listeners struggle with and maybe don't even know what they that they're struggling with or don't know the terminology for it. Um you mentioned this whole um avoidant attachment style. Can you say more about that and like what that looks like in relationships or just in real life? Like how would somebody know that they had an avoidant attachment style? Yeah, So attachment styles UM are very own, very between people. They is on how they grow up and the idea of being that depending on what your relationship was like with your primary caregiver, that's what shapes how you see the world. So if I had a caregiver who was there for me, who provide emotional encouragement whenever I needed it, who kissed my boo boo when I got hurt, then I grew up with a mindset or a perspective that the world is safe, that I can trusted, that people love me, that I can love myself. If I grew up in a family where my caregivers are sometimes there are not there where they might shame me for my feelings, where I feel like I have to do things by myself, where I UM I am treated as a burden, then I'm gonna have an attachment style that is called insecure. Now, within that there's different variations. So with avoid it um, people who are avoided, they learn basically to avoid relationships is within the name. And so it's difficult getting close to people, it's difficult trusting others. Um Uh. The way that self protection works is to um criticize, which is UM part of what I mentioned earlier. So and all of the pop problems and conflicts that you have, you say, well, I can't trust this person because of what they did here, and I can't trust her because what she did there. And you're seeing as a person who doesn't really have any other problems. And because of that, you can move from relationships relationship to relationship without really having to look at yourself. Um. And what's really um ironic about it is at the same time that someone is pushing away relationships UM. In the avoidance style, there also might be this yearning for a relationship. There is this and that's kind of what I see in Novo. She's not adverse to being in a relationship. It's just it's hard for her to be intimate and vulnerable and engage in that conflict because what if I stay there and I try to trust you, and then you hurt me again and I ra They're just exit and get away from there, um before you have the chance to do so. Yeah, And it seems like maybe some of that is also playing out in the relationship between her and Charlie. UM. So we haven't talked a lot about that, and that might not necessarily bring her into therapy because she likely doesn't see a problem with the relationship she and Charlie have, UM. But it does feel like there's some of that attachment style stuff playing out in the relationship she has with her sister. Yeah. Yeah, going back to one of your original questions about things that happened in the past, I mean, I wonder about if there was any competition between her and Charlie as far as who's the most love and who's not the most love and um. Also the dynamics we saw with Charlie's mother being the one who she felt stole her father from the family, you know, and just all the unseid and unresolved issues that they They're better than they were at the beginning of the show, for sure. But um, I wonder if a lot of the conversations they need to have having occourage yet, right, I mean, because just kind of at the end of last season we saw Nova have like when the mom was able to say, like, actually, what you thought all along was not the truth. It does feel like there was a softening to her, like, oh my goodness, I didn't know the whole story kind of thing. So I think it will be interesting when it comes back for the new season to kind of see where she is with some of that and if that changes in any way her relationship with Charlie for sure. Yeah. So for any of our listeners who may be struggling with things that are similar to the kinds of things that um nobody is struggling with, what kinds of tips or strategies would you offer them to kind of, you know, maybe make some progress in their own relationships. Yeah, So as far as relationships, I would say to pay attention to things if if you relate to a Nova in the way of being avoided. I would pay attention to, how do you avoid our exit? Um? One, are the ways that you've find yourself leaving? Is it that? Or is it romains relationships and you see that you're breaking up? Is it that whenever you're get in a fight with someone you just cut them off and move um? And that's important to find the pattern and so that you can change it. And then the second thing that I would encourage you to pay attention to are the triggers that lead you to that point, which which are the conflicts that cause so much pain and distress inside of you to where you're like, I don't want to deal with this person or anyone like this person ever again, because from there, I think you'll be able to find your pain point if you already don't know what the pain point is. And then once you're able to externalize that in a way. And I think I'm starting to get into some therapist talk, but it's like when you're able to get to a place where you can say, Okay, it's not really this person that's hurting me. I'm really hurt and upset about this thing that happened to me in the past. You're able to tolerate the conflict and the stress and that relationship more because you realize it's more about you then more about them. And from there, Um, I would practice some communication techniques and learning how to tell people what you need versus assuming that they know. You know, people are mind readers, and just quickly to go back to Nova, we see that a lot. She gets hurt and she goes instead of telling people what she needs. Yeah. I think that's one of the really cool things about therapy, shea is this whole idea of like being able to kind of go back in time to kind of see how somebody's current behavior is really a reaction to something that may have happened like twenty years ago, and you just you have no awareness of it. So talking with a good therapist who can kind of connect those doubts where you really can make some huge changes in how you show up in the world. Absolutely, And I think also for anyone, UM, going back to the relationships, I think, Um, you know with Nova you have mentioned that this earlier too, just finding her voice and finding out what works for her and what doesn't. I wonder if Nova's clear on that herself. For as strong enough decisive as she is that she actually knows what she wants in a partner, what she does, and which is why she'll engage in this relationship with the white Mary cop and why she'll engage in this relationship with this um intellectual um activists who has beliefs that are contrary to her. So, I think if you're listening and you keep finding partners who don't align with you, is stopping and figure out what are my values? What is it that I truly want? What are the actual deal breakers? Um? Because you're not gonna find someone who's perfect, because we all have our baguges and issues. But what are the things that I know for share would be a compromise of my value and my integrity and then go going from there and that being the template that you use for these relationships versus I like how this person makes me feel in the moment. Those are some really great tupes. So do you have any um like resources that you would suggest for people who want to learn more about what talking about or that would help to to really deal with more of these, Like any books or podcasts or websites that you really like that you would suggest. Yeah, one of the first book is a book that's actually already been recommended on your podcast before. In that book is called Attached by a Mirror Lovine. I'm only vest this last night, and the reason why I really loved that book more than any of the other books is because he really breaks down. I talked about the avoid it and then I talked to I didn't talk about but there's another UM type in this book that calls kind of this love addiction, and that's where you UM. Instead of you pushing people away, it's the opposite. You run towards people who are not healthy for you, and you try to cling onto them and get them to love you. But I love this book because it actually tells you practical steps that you can engage in to UM to break that cycle and start new new UM tips or new pathways UM. I didn't get to mention earlier, but I still wanted to say. One of the things that I think we're bringing over into therapy, or one thing that she might actually UM uncovered during her time, is just any unresolved grief with UM, the passing of her mother and her father, which doesn't seem like she's actually dealt with yet, and so UM I was gonna recommend one of your earlier episodes about managing grief with Dr Gita Robinson that was really great and UM she talked about some tools with how to manage grief UM and then other tools And this is again based on just my lens with what I do with relationships and people who are attracted to impossible partners and people and sexualizing your pain UM. I I wanted to recommend there's a there's a website called Suddenly Celibate and dot com and there's this woman called James. Her name is jas Downey and she talks about how she would sexualize her pain and see partners to self suit and how it wasn't good for her relationships and her intimacy and the states the stuff she took to get better. And so I think having someone share their story UM and and learning from that would be really great. And then also I have a podcast called Love Junkie and I have an episode that talks about intimacy disorders and love avoidance and love addiction UM for folks to check out. And the last thing I would recommend is UM. I also have a course called the Freedom Course and it's it's it's of course, that helps you look at what brings you to a place where you accept partners who might not give you the love you deserve. And UM, there's different activities where you look at your family life patterns and the connections with the partners you choose, and then also replacement skills UM instead of acting out in those ways. And so that's also on my website at Sina the Therapist dot com. So so you already jumped the gun on Mechina, So I was gonna ask about any, um, any like cool activities or things that you're doing as a part of your practice and a part of your work that you think people should check out. Yeah, so definitely the Freedom course I think. I think for those who might online more with their avoidance, UM is really good because again you're looking at those family life patterns and where it might be coming from, UM to help you build some awareness around it. UM. Another cool thing that I'm working on right now is I just started a project called Black Girls Hell and UM. It's a online community that is offering self help tools for women for black women to help from unhealthy relationships and most self esteem and trauma and a self paced kind of coaching fashion and UM, and it's attached to Facebook group that has weekly exercises for folks to do as well, and so UM if anyone's interested. That um website is called black Girls Hell dot org and it has all the links to get to the Facebook group and um different activities that will be posted. Very cool. So you already mentioned the Black Girls Heal dot org. UM, but are there other websites that we can check out for you and any social media handles that you want to share? Yeah, I'll just go ahead and give them all in order. So my website is Shena the Therapist dot com and that Shena with one E, and on that website there's thanks to my podcast, the Love Junkie Podcast, and then also um, there's different free workbooks on if you do feel like you struggle with sexually compulsive behaviors or some people call it a sex addiction, there's a free work book for you to look at their on Instagram, I am at Shena the Therapist dot com, Facebook Shena the Therapist and my Twitter is Shena Therapy and then for black girls he'll is black Girls Heill dot org and the Instagram and Facebook name are both black Girls. He'll but if you're looking for the Facebook group um that titles black Girls Hill Group Perfect And of course all of this information will be included in the shows. For anybody who may be driving and can't take notes on all of that, you can find all of that information in the show notes for the episode. Well, thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us today, Shena. I really appreciate it. Thanks Joy for having me. This is fun. You're welcome. Thank you didn't Shena share some great information that helps you to think about Nova a little deeper. If you aren't already watching that, definitely hope you'll tune in. We're right in the middle of the two days season three premiere, so you still have a little bit of time to catch up. If you've been missing out. To check out all the amazing resources she shared, visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session fifty nine, and please be sure to share your thoughts about the episode with us on social media. You can use the hashtag tv G in session and you can also tag our accounts. You can find us on Twitter at Therapy for the Number four be Girls, and you can find us on Instagram and Facebook at Therapy for Black Girls. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit the therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue this conversation and join a community of other sisters who listen to the podcast, join us over in the Thrive tribe at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash tribe. Make sure that you answer the three questions it has to gain injury. Thank y'all again for joining me this week, and I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take it care, Actor I, Actor doctor doctor Actor Ott

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