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Welcome to the Therapy for a Black Girls Podcasts, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information, visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. And while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session seventy eight of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. Today, we have a repeat guest with us to talk all about mindfulness. You may remember Shawna Murray Brown from session forty six where we discuss mental health needs of activists. If you haven't listened to that one already, you definitely want to add it to your playlists. Shawna is the director and founder of Kindred Wellness in integrated practice dedicated to honoring culture, expanding mindfulness, and holding safer space for change makers, black women, leaders and their families to heal. Shawna is a licensed clinical social worker in the state of Maryland, Keygong instructor, speaker, and mind body medicine practitioner. She holds a master's degree in social work from the University of Maryland Baltimore and a Bachelor of Science and Criminology and Family Science from the University of Maryland College Park. Shawna and I chatted about the definition of mindfulness. She addressed some of the myths you may have heard about mindfulness, She shared some ways you can begin to incorporate it into your life, and of course, she shared her favorite resources. If you hear something while you're listening that really connects with you, please share it with us on social media using the hashtag tv G in session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us again today, Shawn and you were a highly requested return guests. Um, so I'm happy you were able to come back and chat with us again today. I'm so excited all the time. Likewise, likewise, so I know, Shanna, and I am so impressed by how you really do such a great job. I think of like really doing the whole mind, body, spirit, using all of that in your work. And so I specifically wanted to hear you talk more about mindfulness and how you use mindfulness in your practice, But want to start by giving our listeners a definition of mindfulness. And I think sometimes people hear that we're and don't really know what it means. Okay, awesome, I can absolutely share so mindfulness. So there are a lot of different definitions out there, there is no one set definition, but the definition I use is focusing on one thing in the moment, non judgmentally, and so it's a state of awareness of being, of being and noticing what it's coming up for you. Okay. So I think that non judgmental and like one thing at a time pieces probably what trips a lot of people up. And and I think, you know, it would be important to kind of explain because I think people struggle with mindfulness sometimes because they like get upset with themselves that their mind does wander. But of course our mind wanders because it's kind of meant to do that, right, So can you talk about like how mindfulness actually looks in practice, that it's not really about like trying to ignore all of your other thoughts. Yeah. So when I first started to learn about like mindfulness, I was first introduced to it through meditation. That was one of the ways, and I was really frustrated with myself joy Like I was like, Okay, my mind will not shut up. Like if this is the thing you think it's supposed to happen, it's totally not. But like if our mind stops moving, then something isn't right. It's really about noticing the thoughts that come up, not holding onto them or passing judgment about them, and noticing how it feels to be able to sit and almost observe your thoughts. I think one of the things that I found to be really supportive for clients that I support is separating the self or who they are from their thoughts, Like you are not your thoughts. So yeah, So the practice of mindfulness and the way that it looks it could mean doing a mindfulness meditation that might mean breathing and noticing your body breathing and trying to focus only on that breathing or mindfulness could be and more of like what I would consider like mindfulness and action, so being really present and walking and noticing how your feet feel when they touched the ground, or um being really present with your food. I might pull out a grape and I'll be like, Okay, y'all, what color is the grape? And I would be like what, Misshana, And it's sort of like really being present with all the aspects of that one thing at a time. So I know that there are multiple different ways that you can practice mindful nis Shanna, can you tell us about some of the ways um or maybe some of the most popular ways that you use it in your practice. Absolutely, so the way that I use it in my practice is really fluid. So I've studied mindfulness on a large scale mind body medicine, which is really the sort of larger term for the way that the mind and the body work together for healing. And I've also studied what's called che gong, which is a traditional Chinese form of meditation that pairs breathing and color and movement altogether for a powerful healing experience. So the way that client that comes in may experience mindfulness with me would be really from the very beginning of their session, I'm inviting them to state how they're feeling physically, and I might guide them through a breathing activity called the body scan, from inviting them to close their eyes to relax their body to the extent that they can and they feel comfortable, and then notice that they feel any any sensation, if they feel nothing at all, if they feel any pain in a space, and then I invite them to sort of check in with themselves about what thoughts come up in that silence and in that stillness, about what they'd like to address for the day. Sometimes, UM, if my clients are struggling with things having to do with anxiety, then I am supporting them and learning from that space of being intentional about and aware of what's happening in their body, noticing, okay, what things are causing this anxiety and where are you feeling in your body right? And so this then allows my clients to be able to become a little bit more aware about what the beginning stage of anxiety looks like in their body. And then I teach them some breathing techniques, um to be able to help them to regain a sense of control and feeling safe again. If that makes sense, Yeah, Shana, And I think I'm wondering, you know, because I think, especially as black women, a lot of times we are doing a lot of what I call ripping and running. So we are, you know, going from this drop off to this meeting to go work on this project, and you know, just kind of always moving. And so I wonder if you find that people often have trouble kind of slowing down enough to really be able to kind of engage gen this kind of mindfulness activity. Absolutely, so I've not found any person that has not struggled. That's um, because we live in a society that is so much like you have to keep going right. One of the ways that we've managed to cope with a lot of the stress of having to balance many things, especially as black women, is that we essentially stuff it right. We don't realize that our emotions are actually a thing that could turn into a physical manifestation. But um, what I find is, and I use mindfulness both in my therapy practice UM and group and individual, and I even use it when I'm like speaking to large groups of people. And so I found that there is some worry about, well, what's gonna come up for me, or maybe I'm not doing it right, And that is a part of the practice is being aware of the fact that you have fifty million things running in your head and and sitting with and noticing what are those fifty million things that's running in your head. Let's write that down after you finished breathing. Right, Let's literally do a brain dup when you take sixty seconds and you write down all the things on your mind, and then we go back to breathing and see how does that feel? How does it feel that sort of get it out and maybe outline what are the things that you can actually control and what are the things that you can't. One of the underlying experiences that I found a lot of Black women have after sitting in the space and a mindful existence for the first time is that a lot of emotions come up. And that's the thing that you know, we know that as therapists that when we're holding space that emotions can be big. And I think that folks uh don't realize how much we hold in our physical body. And so when you actually start to breathe and you slow down, sometimes tears happen. Sometimes it's relief, but certainly it's a challenge for everyone. But I've always found that folks felt better after trying it. Right now, you mentioned something shown that I want to make sure that we go back to. You said something about, you know, like the fact that your emotions can then turn into something that you feel physically, can you explain what that means? Like, how does that happen? Exactly? So from the perspective of traditional Chinese medicine and che gong or tai chi, what the ancient wisdom tells us is that all of our emotions are energy, and that if you say, for example, if I sometimes I ask a run of black women, how I ask everybody to raise their hands and they have lower back pain? And usually everybody raises their hands like they're like, actually, yeah, I'm feeling a lot of lower back pain right now. I could use a massage. And so I invite everybody to sort of stamp up, and I showed them a chart and then let's as I showed them that according to traditional Chinese medicine, we hold fear and our kidneys. That is that fear that is not expressed, That is not a process that we haven't let out either, maybe through crying, maybe through talking about it, maybe writing it out. If it's an unresolved emotional experience, that it has to go somewhere. We talked about stuffing sometimes, um, I think in our passing conversations about what we do with our emotions. But what I'm saying is that we literally store emotions and unresolved emotions and our physical body and so like fear storing itself and our kidneys, or not being able to breathe. If you have experienced grief, you've experienced a loss, and you find yourself a breathing really short throughout a long period of time, what the traditional Chinese medicine would say is that is grief stored in the loans, and that by bringing your awareness and attention to your loans and communing with or releasing some of the unresolved emotions associated with grief, you will also find that your physical experience of being able to breathe becomes better. So I have a client that I've been working with for about a year and she's expressed, hey, like, I can't like what is this going on in my chest? And she's identified her own grieving process, and through that as well as through some che gone mindfulness activities, now she feels like, oh, I can actually hold my breath far longer than before. So that's really interesting. I didn't know that shown that there were particular like spaces in the body that have been associated with particular emotions and feelings. Absolutely, and so these are of course, when we're talking about mindfulness from a broad spect from mindfulness has always been rooted in ancient practice, right. So when I say ancient, really really really old, I'm all over the world, right, And so in particular studies and particular parts of the world have pointed down to a science of connecting our physical experiences and emotional experiences together. And so I can actually send a link to you, um joy, so that folks can actually see the chart that I'm talking about, Like if there's a five element emotions chart that literally talks about where moodiness and heartbreak stores itself in the heart, where grief stores it self in the loans, where fear holds itself and their kidneys, and that those things may also correlate to some of the patterns around health and wellness. So you know, the number one killer of black women in the United States of America, it's heart disease. And so when I say that and then I talk about heartbreak and sorrow and anger storing itself in the heart, people are like wow, So like me holding onto the emotional aspects or refusing to forgive, or maybe the generational history and trauma of living in the United States can be overwhelmed, and it's like, Yeah, that's a really depressing thing that we could focus on, or we could say, here are some of the really powerful ways that you can heal something that's really intangible and that could feel really overwhelming. Here's some a way that you can actually release some of that energy that you may not be able to put words to. Yeah. I really like that connection because I do think that that gives you, like like you were talking about, like the ability to control the things that you do actually have control over, like learning how to breathe more, you know, intentionally and kind of being more mindful exactly. And that's really what brought me to studying and trying to figure out how I could learn it so that I could share it with black women and our families. Right as soon as I heard the man that came all the way from China, the training that I was about the ability to be able to breathe and do certain movements to be able to alleviate some of the pain that we held in my heart, I was like, I gotta figure this out. Like we made that right, So what are some of the reasons show know why you might want to practice mindfulness, Like, in what kind of circumstance would it be helpful to really have a good mindfulness practice? Okay, I would say that I think everyone could benefit from mindfulness. Of course that's me being biased, But there's some sons of research where they've been able to delineate exactly how it impacts folks, especially if you are practicing mindfulness and therapy. Now, most of the research has been on mindfulness meditation specifically, and they found like a reduction in ruminate or like if you have like a thought that you just can't get out your mind and you keep you know, you can't let go of a thing that happened to you, or you can't let go of a feeling more emotion of a person that has done something wrong. The practice of mindfulness is supported in reducing that kind of repetitiveness or increasing memory base. Right, So, one of the things that we know about the impact of experiencing hardship or trauma is that you forget things right, You're unable to remember even things that happened in the past, or even things that happened throughout your day. And so through the practice of mindfulness, folks have experienced or witnessed better memory, reduction of stress, being able to focus better, being less emotionally reactive. So if you are like a sistem that goes zero to a hundred real quick, like the practicing mindfulness and support you and being able to not respond, not pop off on a person because they've maybe even pushing their buttons, but being able to actually like calm and and think more clearly and make different decisions, and some of the other benefits would be like being less rigid. Right, Like, so some of us may have like really fixed ideas about what our life should be like, how our days should go. Right and through the practice of mindfulness, we we found that folks have been able to release the being fixated on one way of doing things and are generally just more open to other ways of being able to have experience success or happiness. It really just all around. It literally impacts your brain. Like specifically, all of those things have to do with the part of the brain that's the middle prefrontal lobe area, and folks may not want to know that, but like it's really great. So so basically you're saying that just the practice of like the mindfulness and meditation, like you're saying the research is mostly about that that causes maybe some differences in your brain so that you're able to be more flexible, you're able to be less rigid, less anxious, all of those things you describe absolutely, And then there's a lot of times where like the practice of a lot of organizations for folks that you know are just really may be focused on winning in their career or business like all of these things. If you're better focused, you have better memory, you're less stressed, you do better at work, you are better at home. Just your relationships and your ability to be able to develop your relationships and improves as well. I mean there's even research joy this is the therapist that is teaching the meditation or my and mindfulness um improves. We're improving empathy and compassion and reduction and stress. So it's like it's beneficial for everybody, right, this is this is like the the key, right, Like everybody needs to learn how to do this. But but I do think, you know, there are so many different types. And I remember, you know, like when I first was introduced to like meditation, I think in grad school, like there was audio of like waves crashing or something, and I did not at all find that comforting because I can't swim, and so in some ways that made me anxious, right, But I think it just speaks to the greater point that everything is not going to be for everybody, and so something that may be really calming and relaxing for me is not going to be the same for you. And so how does someone go about like finding like what maybe the thing for them in terms of like mindfulness. So one of the ways that I think it's really awesome, it's just being open minded and trying different things, not getting frustrated about or sort of writing off mindfulness one time because you had an experience that didn't work for you, but recognizing that because there are so many different ways being open to explore. And so for example, yoga is mindfulness practice, right. Everybody doesn't like yoga, right, but that is one way to practice it. Um if you are maybe sitting and doing a meditation and silence and noticing your breath really works, but for others that might not be the thing. Sitting and being focused on just being with your tea in the morning or your coffee the way that you start your day and instead of flipping through a newspaper while drinking your coffee while watching the television. You decide you're just going to be with that cup and you're just going to reflect on your breath and noticing how you feel as you drink your your cup of coffee or teeth throughout the day. That might work for you where I wouldn't work for others. Taking a walk outside and noticing what's coming up for you in nature, noticing the creatures around you, that could be something that would be really awesome. I love personally joy being on the beach and looking at the word for me is really soothing. And doing that only not with music, not with a book, but simply being with myself in that space is really helpful. So I'll but say that one of the ways is just being really open to exploring many of the different ways that you can practice mindfulness. Can you do mindfulness with music? Yes, one of the other ways to be mindful it could be to just to sit and listen to a song. And but just being with the music right, like not running with the music right, it's simply being And it doesn't mean that running with the music isn't also awesome. But when we're talking about mindfulness in particular, it is practicing being with one thing in that moment. Okay, I mean it would be important to be mindful or thoughtful about the kind of music you're listening to, hopefully selecting the kind of music that would actually support you and feeling better, because some of us have different kinds of music with different things, So music that might be soothing. There's nature applications around mindfulness where you can actually listen. You said you were listening to the water, right, so maybe that wouldn't be great for you, right, music that maybe that was drumming, or you know, some sort of consistent soothing experience that might work. And I also tell my client shawna um, you know, because I know there's also been, like you said, a lot of research that talked about like being able to do meditations to kind of calm yourself in a panic attack. But the key to that is that you can't like be trying to use or learn the meditation the moment you're having a panic attack, right, You need to have already been practicing it so that you know when you need it it is accessible exactly, So everything is a practice. So that means that you may try the first time, and you're like, I was totally unable to focus on my breath. I fell asleep, right, And so you know, recognizing that's a part of the journey and you're falling asleep can happen. The goal is just maintain your awareness while you're doing it, and so forth. When we're talking about someone having a panic attack in the moment, certainly if they've been able to practice it at home and figuring out how to just breathe when you're at a red light, right, if you're a person that has real rage and you're driving, how to instead of cursing the person out that just cuts you off, deciding that you're gonna breathe them, feel your belly was there for a moment and really and allow that person that just did that thing to get to wherever they're going without taking it in. When you're practicing it first alone and then you apply it to your day to day life, it tends to be a lot easier because it just some muscles that you're exercising, Right, Your mindfulness muscle a muscle like anything else, right, that we need to be practicing. Another way to bring mindfulness practice into your life, it could absolutely be breath, or it could be um having a thing like a rock or a stress ball or something furry or fluffy that you can keep in your pocket that you can rub on to help you calm. And so maybe if not focusing in on your breath and focusing in on your breath doesn't work, it may mean okay, maybe having something in your pocket that you can rub in your hand and you can bring your attention and awareness to how does my hand feel rubbing this bead or rubbing this or squeezing the stress ball or holding this crystal or you know, the stone and focusing your awareness on that. That can also be an easy way. It doesn't take a lot of practice in the same way that meditation might, but still mean that we would have to spend some time figuring out what is the thing that I can carry on my pocket that that I actually would want to look at and focus my awareness on in times of me right. Right, So, something else I think that comes up, SHAWNA that I've heard related to like mindfulness and meditation, is you know, like, is this some kind of religious thing? Right? Like is this you know, some kind of pig and something or you know, like people have given that as reasons why they might not want to try it. So, are there other myths or things that you've heard that you wanted to spel related to mindfulness? Absolutely? So the first one that I wanted to spell is what you just said. So so it is not so. Yes, mindfulness is rooted in many spiritual practices throughout the world, but that mindfulness practice, the meditation specifically, is actually also connected to many of the religious practices that we may have. For example, prayer is a form of mindfulness. It is being present in the moment and that right and that that is one. So I think it's important for folks technology that while yes, UM, the practice of mindfulness is inspired by UM many of the traditional religions throughout the world, it is not a religious practice. Deciding to focus in on your breath alone, UM is not a religious practice. It is something that everyone can have access to, be your religion or spiritual practice or none at all. Even if you're just like you know what that you know spirituality isn't for me, like, you can still have access to this practice without interfering with whatever your beliefs are. Because being in your body is something that you're doing right now, why not do it um intentionally. And one of the other things that I've heard a lot is folks thinking that you have to sit like a statue and you can't move when you're practicing mindfulness meditation, and that is false. So there are walking meditations right, There are moving meditations like yoga, like like. These are ways that you are in the moment um intentionally and they are meditative. But there are practices a way of to practice mindfulness that does not require you to sit still without moving. And if you do decide to sit still to practice a mindfulness meditation, you can do that. But if you get like a Charlie horse in your leg during your meditation, you absolutely can move like It doesn't mean that you did not do a great job at practicing that mindfulness moment and that experience. One of the other things that I've heard is that you have to have like a zen like location. It has to be completely cleared out right with with plants around. No, you can do this any way you'd like. It is helpful, I think in the beginning of your relationship with yourself and your mind to to practice in a space where you feel safe, right where you feel like you're not gonna be interrupted so that you can strengthen the muscle, so to speak, but over time, and you can practice wherever. The point is to create a lifestyle where no matter what's happening around you, you can still have the inward awareness of what's going on, how you're feeling, and regain some groundedness or being present in the moment. What else. Oh, that's not for people who think too much. Well, I thank too much, y'all, and I do it all the time, right, It's absolutely for folks who feel like they have a lot on their mind, because this will support in reducing some of those, um some of the angst and stress that can come from having a mindful of thoughts all the time, and and can support you and actually maybe even um releasing some of the things that you're holding in your mind. Yeah, I think that's what I got. Okay, Yeah, I do think that that is probably the most common things that I've heard, especially like that you have to be sitting like you know, like the Buddha kind of statue, right, or you know that it only looks one way when really there are tons of different ways you can meditate or be mindful. And I would say I like folks also talk about it taking too long and and you know, like you do not have to sit for hours upon hours of doing this practice. I would say, start at least with a five minute point and see how you feel in that moment, Like, start with a goal of five minutes, and then it can grow from there. Yes, I've certainly meditated for a couple of hours at a time, but that was after having a really hard time in the beginning just being present with myself for two minutes, and so over the practice of doing this for years, um, I've gotten to a point where I can do that. But even though I can do that now, like sometimes I can't. Like sometimes my practice is just supposed to be five minutes, y'all, and it still makes it um impactful and helpful for me and my body and the healing process that often happens when we decide to practice mindfulness or any kind of meditation and for me, Seanna, I think some of the easiest have been, um, like the eating exercises, so like you will open up a lifesaver and then just pay attention to the different flavors that it has, or you know, as it's kind of dissolving what are you feeling in that kind of thing, Like, those have been the easiest for me to kind of get into absolutely, and those are I mean, those are the most fun. Joy you're talking about it. I know that's right. Let's say that's a perfect way to practice it for those who maybe listening that like have children or work with children or you know, uh yeah, I mean it's that's one of the most exciting activities that children love to do. That one. And there's also a shaking meditation that I do with children where we literally turned on like um music that sounds like um like uh, it sounds like a drum, and we literally jumped to the music of the drum as a release. Nice. Then he said, does sound like a lot of fun. Even adults I think could get into that. I get. I've been able to get a room full of like over a hundred adults to do it with me. It's so awesome. In the beginning they're like, I'm not doing that. It's gonna be so great. Yeah, And I'm glad you went back to that, Shanna, because I do think we should touch on that, like the whole need to be doing it right or like if you are in a group, worrying about like what you look like while you're participating in the mindfulness activity. He talked about that a little bit absolutely, so like there's no wrong way to do it except to not do it, or maybe to place judgment on it. So to think that you're doing it wrong because of X, Y Z, right, maybe because I didn't do it long enough, because I started crying, or I fell asleep or you know, my phone rang. It's really about being just the being committed to the practice. There's no wrong way to do it except to not do it at all. The other thing that I will say is if you go into it thinking this isn't gonna work for me, I don't want to do this, I don't have time for it, well, then you're probably right. Like if you have in your mind that it's it's not going to work psychologically, your body, your your body is gonna be like no, because you've already made the decision. Um. But now when we're talking about looking a full what I do, I'll create the safe space for people to be able to do it by being the first person to do it right. So I think what we are talking about individual practice, Um, this is something that you can do at home. You can do in your bed before you wake up, when when you go to sleep. For me, because I have a very little one and time alone is a hot commodity. When I go to the bathroom, listen here, okay, I make that I'm meditative mindfulness time. I might turn on music while I'm in the space so that no one can see. And so I would say, enjoy that. It's important to create a really powerful relationship with yourself where you can be vulnerable with yourself and creating this experience and then as it builds up, then when you are in a groups of spaces. If you're in a group of space with a person like me, I'm gonna make you feel comfortable cause I'm gonna make a fool of myself. I'm okay and unafraid of anyone being like, oh, she looked like a chicken, and be like, yes I did. Girl. We're gonna look like a chicken. Together. It's gonna be great. We're gonna make you look like chick. If you're listening, you're like, you know what, I'm gonna ask my therapist about this. You know what, I need a therapist that does this. There are four acknowledged models UM, meaning like you know, like books and trainings that a therapist could go to to learn and and that you might see when you're searching on the therapy for Black Girls dot Com directory, UM, that would be one of them is called DBT And I know Joe you had you had all sessions where somewhere assisted talked about her practice and dialectical behavioral therapy, so that is a mindfulness UM based model UM ACT, which is acceptance and compassion therapy UM mindful. And then there's mindfulness based cognitive behavioral therapy so mindfulness based CBT, and I think you've also had a session about that. Look at you educating worlds. And then the last one UM that there's a lot of research on. It's called mindfulness based stress Reduction UM. And so all of these they have different ways of utilizing mindfulness. So DBT and a CT they're really focused on UM folks doing different mindful exercises like eating the grape and being really present UM like a walking meditation, and then noticing the thoughts that come up when you're in that mindful state. Whereas the last two mindfulness based stress reduction and mindfulness based CBT they literally teach mindfulness, meditation and really support the client and gaining those skills. I think no matter like I particularly love all of them. I use I've been trained in and use DBT, MBCT and mindfulness based stress reduction. But I am actually really fluid. So you could find a therapist that has one of those four acknowledge models, or you could know you might weed and their narrative that they use mindfulness or they are integrated, or that they support folks in somatics and embodiment, which is learning what comes up in your physical body and note to sing what's happening there. You might find a therapist that maybe uses yoga or like me, something like che gong or tiede sheet or some other movement. Or maybe you have a therapist that uses walk and talk therapy, Like walk and talk therapy can be if you're walking with your therapist outside and you are experiencing their therapy. Um, that's another way to infuse mindfulness into a therapy practice. So if you're looking for a therapist that uses mindfulness, those are some of the things you can look for. And I know it was a handful and a lot of alphabet suit but UM, but I'm sure that I can share a link that sort of offers some insight about those two. Yeah, and I will definitely list them out in the in the show notes so that people can have it to reference back. But I'm glad you brought that up though, right, because I do think it's just further highlights how we all practice very differently as therapists. Um, you know, because these are not things that I necessarily include in therapy, you know, because I haven't been particular they trained in any of these kinds of formats. Right. So if you feel like some of these things do appeal to you and you want to work with a therapist on them, then it is important to find a therapist who talks about the fact that they've had this training and can teach you how to do these things. Yeah. And I mean I think to like, I don't I think for folks that maybe in therapy and their therapist doesn't use mindfulness, but they think that it could be really helpful. I think it's even just talking to your therapist about it, um, and maybe like exploring some of the apps that are out there around helping you build your mindfulness practice, and then and then even sharing the insights that come up for you. It's your therapist could be helpful. Like I think therapy without mindfulness is so still super awesome and amazing. And now I don't want folks leaving their therapists because they want you know, I'm just saying, like, if you, if you are at a point where you're looking for us to adult therapist, like, those are some of the things to look out for, and then if they don't have a list of to just ask them, hey, like I'm really interested in mindfulness. I'm gonna work on this, you know, like outside of therapy, like can when we check in about it, like that could be another super awesome way to really honor the expertise that your therapist does have and get what you want for yourself. Right, good point. Good point. So what are some of the resources showing her that people can check out? You mentioned some apps, So what are some things where people can go to find what might work for them? Absolutely, I have a few favorite apps. I think I shared some and the last call to so I'm about to share them again because they're so dope. So one that's called headspace. So there's headspace. There's one that's literally called calm, and then there's insight timer. Those three applications are really awesome. They offer like guided meditations or you know, UM that really support you in practicing your breathing and being in your body. I created an online forms specifically for Black women that are interested in mindfulness is called Evolved Sacred Self Work to Heal a Sister, and that can be found at um Heal a Sister dot com and that there's everything from UM a worksheet to being more present and your body guided meditations UM and even like belly dancing because belly dancing is also a powerful way to practice mindfulness. Nice. Nice. I've actually taken belly dancing classes, but they never described it as mindfulness. Well, because it's you being present in your body in that moment, right, noticing what's happening with your hips, noticing what's happening with your breathing. You have to have a really powerful awareness to be able to pop your hip like that, Joel. And that's what I mean when I say I think this is really important to share, like for for us as black women, Like it's so important to record guys that mindfulness this is a new word, right, This is to try to put a lot of the things that many of people from all over the world have been doing since the beginning of time, right, And so when when I'm talking about that mindfulness is ours and it's something we have we are, that we should reclaim and we should recognize as ours. Is because things like dance, right, and the way that we dance, and the way we're in our body when we dance, if it's African dance or if it's hip hop, like, if we're being in our body and we're being present with our body, that is that is also mindfulness. Praying and praying and whatever way you do it, that is also mindfulness. Communing with the earth right, those of us that garden, if you are just being with the dirt right like, that is mindfulness. There are so many things that are rich to black and brown culture that are inherently bringing our awareness and attention to one thing. And that is a way of practice and mindfulness. So just Chather, it doesn't have the title mindfulness on it, don't think it ain't yours book, like okay, Like, don't let nobody be like that's just for the folks that practice Buddhism or perfect no, like it is woven into in all of our traditions. We just have to find it. Yeah. So basically you're saying, like me, hula who being could also be mindfulness? Listen, Yes, I'm saying that is a powerful mindfulness practice. Is you being aware of your body in that moment. Now we can sort of like increase the vibration or the intention of any of the activities that we do in our day to day life to create a mindful lifestyle. That is, instead of multitasking all the time, doing one thing right, like even that game night that you might be having with your family, Like, you can make that a mindful activity if it's just you and your family, not you with your cell phone out, not you you know with the television only release supposed to be playing sorry with your child, right, being with and noticing what's coming up. There's so many things that we can learn from ourselves when we practice that good point. The underlying things for mindfulness I think are checking out your local classes um that really promote wellness, right, so dance classes, yoga, UM, like meditation classes. You might find those things, um. Deciding to go outside, um, deciding to be more thoughtful about the food you put in your body, um, like those those things that have may happen in your community and opening yourself up to new experiences are I think the one of the first hand ways to be able to practice. But then when we're talking about bringing it into our home and practicing through meditation specifically, those apps are really dope. UM checking out is super awesome and amazing therapists that practices it is a really good way to hold yourself accountable in charting your progress in that space. And then of course my evolved platform is dull because it was made just for you, though perfect, and of course we will have a link to all of that in the show notes so people can get it. Well, thank you so much for joining us again to day, shawn I appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. It's so great. Thank you. I think this will help people get some clarity around what all the mindfulness. And I love that you said like, just because we've put this new name on it doesn't mean we haven't always been doing it. Like yeah, cool. I'm so happy Shawna was able to come back and share with us again to check out the resources that she shared and to learn more about her practice or to hear her first interview from the podcast. Visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session seventy eight, and please make sure to share your takeaways from the episode on i G Stories or on Twitter. Be sure to use the hashtag tv G in session so that we can find them and share them. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to visit the therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And don't forget to check out our Therapy for Black Girls store to grab a T shirt or a mug or a hoodie to show your love for the podcast at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash shop. And if you want to continue this conversation and join a community of other sisters who listen to the podcast, join us over in the thrive Tribe, which is the Facebook group for our community. You can find that at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Tribe. Make sure you answer the three questions that are asked to gain injury. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week, and I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take it, dear,