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Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, where we discussed all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information and resources, visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. And while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session forty three of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast and happy Black History More. For today's episode, I'm joined by licensed clinical social worker Alice Chanelle Coleman. Elise is a wife, mom, and serial entrepreneur. She obtained a bachelor's degree in social work and then a massive's degree in social work with a specialization in clinical social work and law. She has an awesome husband, two kids, the littles, and two bonus kids, the bigs. Elise began her foray into the world of postpartum mental health after the birth of her first child in two thousand fifteen, which was a mix of emotions from excitement, trepidation, and anxiety. Motherhood in Motion. Her company was created to address the self care and mental health needs of black moms. Elise and I discuss some of the unique mental health challenges black mom's face, the importance of having someone to advocate for you in the postpartum period, how to deal with mommy guilt, putting an end to mommy wars, and strategies for managing your mental health while raising children. Here's our conversation. So, thank you so much for joining us today, Alie, thank you for having me Dr Joy So I'm very happy that you're able to join us today to talk about all things motherhood, which is one of my favorite topics. Um. So I wanted to kind of start the conversation by getting your ideas about what are some of the unique mental health challenges you think black mom's face. Hi, everyone, Um, some of the unique challenges I think we face are not our concerns not being taken seriously when we first vocalize them. Um. I think we saw this recently as evidence by Serena's Williams birth story. But in the mental health realm, I think oftentimes black women either don't go to treatment, and when they do go, those complaints are often dismissed and not taken as seriously as they should be. Yeah, there was also the recent um Facebook post I'm sure you saw it, UM, where it was actually a white mom who had gone to the hospital to talk about struggling with postpartum depression and they actually called the police on her and had her like follow them to the police station with her child in the car and all of this stuff. Did you read about that? I did, and it broke my heart because that is exactly the type of UM scenarios and reasons why people don't seek help. I think too. One of the really really big issues is as black women in my practice and then talking to other black women, I've noticed that when we go to mental health professionals, we usually don't voice our concerns about emotional um feelings. Our feelings depression, anger, grief, and law sims and manifests itself more physically. So for example, you'll hear black women go into an office and say, you know, I've been having such bad fatigue. My digestic system is all upset. I have these horrible neck and back chains and a practitioner who's not familiar with identifying postpartum disorder and black women, maybe for you to your primary care doctor first without assessing for a true postpartum disorder. Okay, And I mean we talked about postpartum a little bit, and we definitely are going to touch on that a little bit. But um, the whole episode is not going to be dedicated to that. But I do want to, um, kind of get your ideas about like other things. So besides postpartum um, postpartum depression, Um, what what other kinds of things should like black moms be on the lookout for in terms of their mental health. I think you should be on the lookout for general stress management. You know, being a mother is taxing enough, but when you're a black mother, there's so many societal, cultural, and classism things that we have to be concerned about from the minute we give birth to our children actually doing pregnancy. You know, even things by weighing in with your doctor what is considered obese and what is considers your body type and if you're comfortable in that. That's a big issue usually from the onset before your child is even born. Um, lots of black in our schools and I or you can demonize for their health when in reality, UM, they're not obese and they just need a provider that really understands them and is willing to work with their comfort level. Another thing is when it's go ahead, I'm sorry. Another thing is too as soon as that baby is born and we see it all over Instagram and Facebook, bottle fed versus breast said, I'm so sick of that argument. My personal feeling, my personal feelings said, is best you know, um, whether you choose to breastfeed, whether you don't. UM. Both of my children, my first daughter refused to latch, so I exclusively pumped for her. My son is now being breastfed. But it is hard. It is so so hard, And not enough black women share that and actually say, like I'm saying too, plenty of women listening, and I say, in practice, it's okay. If you don't breastfeed, you can have an oversupplo make as much note as you want. If you don't want to breastfeed, you have that right, and it's okay. You're not a bad mall. You don't not care about your child nutritions, it's fine. Yeah, So that brings up this whole thing. What you're talking about is what we here called like the mommy wars? Right, Um, so do you breastfeed or do you bottle feed? Do you send your child to public school, to private school or do you homeschool? Um? Do you use cloth diapers or multiple diapers? I mean it can go on and on, right, And so where do you think you have a girl? Is her hair natural or not? Yeah? I mean, yeah, you're right that the list could be in this. Where do you think that these like mommy wars come from? And what do you think we can do to change some of the culture around this. Well, let me be frank. I think it's about the dollar though, because let's not mistake anything. The people who are making the cloth diapers, the inserts, the breastfeeding shirts, this is a business. So the more they can reinforce to the public you need to be doing this. And in order to do this, you need this product to do it successfully or stylishly or the most cool. It brings in revenue. And it's the same way with the formula companies. So my my feeling is that it was really created and it keeps getting man affested by big companies, big pharma, UM, big a lot of big businessmen who see women and children as a target to make money off of. In a way to dismantle this, it's through self love and enough women coming together and saying, hey, it's okay that we do these things differently. I don't have the breastfeed, I don't have to home school, or guess what, I admire you for something your children to school because guess what, I need a break. So I'm not gonna shame you for those choices. So I think it's about more women having conversations with each other and being accepting of the differences. There's so many ways to parent, and I think in today's climate of what's going on in the world, don't judge me because I use disposables. That's the last thing we need to fight about, right, Right. I mean, if we look at the list of everything going on in the world around us in terms of you know, just kind of being being alive and trying to parent, like, is that really what you're going to focus energy on? Right? And I would say one more thing to combat that, it's education. Um, And I guess I keep kind of going back to it because I'm my son is seven months and I'm still in the breastfeeding world. But I see so many moms slamming other moms for not breastfeeding. A lot of trauma victims have a hard time breastfeeding. You know, before you say to a woman, aren't you breastfeeding? Why aren't your breastfeeding? Could that woman have been raped, molested, um, some sort of body mutilation. There's so many factors that go into a woman's decision to not do that. So I think to be educated and show some compassions because you never know what someone's going through. You know, A dear friend of mine went through chemo. She was able to breast that for a few weeks and that's it, But people don't see that when they look at her. Someone actually said that she was selfish for not breastfeeding, and it was ridiculous. Wow. Yeah, I mean, and like you mentioned, you know, you're already going through so many things, um, trying to balance like motherhood with a career, if you're working outside of the home, or I mean, different kinds of things. So to kind of keep up all of this kind of mommy wars between one another really doesn't help and really only adds to like the alien nation and let a support some moms to you. Absolutely, yeah, excuse me. So another hot topic that I have seen come up a lot is around UM emotional labor UM. And I'm sure that you've also seen some of these articles about UM just the division of labor with like a partnered home, right, so like a mom and dad, two moms, two dads UM, And how like the emotional labor tends to end up more with mom UM. So what are your thoughts about, like how you can balance out some of this emotional labor um like imbalance so to speak. This is so heavy, but I found what to be the most effective is when people UM speak their needs and they speak and clearly and give the other partner actionable directions to take. So when I say that, I'll give you a prime example. If you are at work, working outside of the home, and you come in and maybe the kids are said but perhaps they haven't had bad time. Um. You know, everything is in the house is a little pantazard and they're running around and maybe your husband is playing a video game or relaxing. So instead of wearing those emotions of sadness, loneliness and frustration, I think at that moment it would be beneficial to everyone to stop and say, listen, identify the feelings first. When I come in and I see the house messy or the routine isn't as we discussed, it makes me feel isolated. It makes me feel like you don't care. And that's a great place to start because then it it allows the partner to be less defensive and you can really talk about what you guys expectations are and who's going to do what. But women, we get so caught up and we get, you know, all these emotions inside and then they burst out because a lot of times we are not good at communicating exactly what we expect and giving the action. I find that a lot of partners need to be told exactly what you wish, and then they have the option to say, you know what, that's too much, that's not something I can do, So where can we meet in the middle. Yeah, And several of the guests on like previous podcast episodes have talked about this whole, like leading with my statements and you know, like being sure that you are actually articulating what you feel like you need as opposed to asking your partner to read your mind. And I think another thing is too I have absolutely been guilty of this. You know, I don't believe in the word balance. I think it's stupid. I hate when people say motherhood balance. No, there's priorities. There are just some things that are not going to get done, and you really have to talk, have a talk with yourself and say, Okay, I'm expecting too much of myself. I'm placing too much of the emotional weight on my own show. Let's really think about how much one person can handle during the day. So I would say prioritize and then begin to delegate. It doesn't have to be a mommy centric world. It can be family centered. Everyone in the house can have a job. And if you don't have family, because that is some people's situation. And if you have it, consider where you can get extra house that you know, can you get your groceries deliver? Can you hire help who can be part of your village? Yeah, and you mentioned something at least um, this is the whole idea of like the weight of motherhood, right and like we often you know, everything is so mommy centric and something that has come up for me and of course I've read about and hear other women talk about it is like this whole idea of mommy guilt. Um, so I know one time, you know, I forgot like that it was like a dress up day at school and my kid didn't have a costume, and I just like was wrecked about that for the whole day. And so, you know, can you talk more about like mommy guilt and like how that comes up for us and what we may be able to do to try to manage some of that. Mom guilt is present all the time, and that's because we're constantly bombarded with images and I shall now with social media of perfect moms. So the more we feed ourselves as imagery of everything is perfect, everything is organized, kids have coordinated als, husby has a perfect job, woman is at home, everything works out perfectly. No, that's not reality. So part of mommy guilt is making sure you do the reality check for yourself because I think lots of times what we obsessed about, such as your child in that costume, once he or she got to school, UM could probably guarantee within thirty minutes it was okay. You know, we have to put things into perspective because I've done it. Oh my goodness, she was supposed to have you know, Molanna Napkins and I didn't get some um, so putting it into perspective one, I think it's a good way to help dismantle some of that. The second thing is recognizing all the things that you do do well. You know, when those feelings of guilt come up because you think you haven't mastered whatever Tassi was supposed to, take a step back, be mindful and think about all the successes you had that deck, because you probably have had several that have just gone unnoticed. Did you get to pump a thron amount of milk, did your child sweezes the night with your toddler willing to go to the bathroom, did you get everybody out and into school on time. There's so many things to be grateful for, So I think once we shift our focused, it could really help tremendously with the mom got absolutely absolutely so. I know that you at least do a lot of work um like in homes with moms, which I think is really cool, right, especially when we're talking about um like immediately postpartum. You know, and mom may not be able to get out and move, or not have child care for a newborn, or doesn't want anybody of course with a newborn because of you know, illness and stuff like that. UM, So I know you do some in home stuff, so can you talk to me a lot, um talk to me about like the kinds of concerns that you're working on with some of your mom's are just in general, what kinds of thing is do you typically work with? UM? I have kind of super motherhood in motion on Mommy concier so for so postpartum women are able to contact me for their needs from everything to helping them organize and get ready for baby, assessing for a perinatal mood disorder, stress management, relationship issues, and even other health issues that may arise or come up directly after postpartum. So I work closely the dulas, so a lot of the issues that immediately come up our feelings at least. I just want to stop you because adula may not be something that everybody is familiar with. So can you explain what a sure adula is a provider that is trained in the pregnancy, birth, and postpartum process. So it's basically like a mommy support UM. Dulas are not doctors, they're not psychologists, they're not social workers. They are women who have taken additional training. They may be breastfeeding UM peer support people. They may have additional training and making tinctures, or a lot of them also work closely with midwife. So doulas are labor support. They go to hospitals, they're at birthing censers, and they attend on birth as well, and their primary focus is to care for MoMA the birth process perfect. Sorry for not clarifying, it's okay um um, but one of the first the main feeling that always comes up is feeling overwhelmed. And I usually get that call about after a week and I usually say that's usually when the high of giving birth kind of goes away and it's like, holy crap, life text change. I see it particularly with my mothers who have more than once. For either the second or third, the feeling of being overwhelmed is ajacerbated because they felt like, I'm supposed to know how to do this, already did it before, but this particular birth, this particular child is much different from the first, and life is kind of throne for a loop. So overwhelmed um. Definitely fatigue learning how to balance life now with the news hunion being and a lot of women complain about feeling irritable, and that brings me to the postpartum that sometimes postpartum depression for black women does not look sad, it looks mad. So helping to figure out where the emotions are coming from, if this is just baby blues or if this is a new disorder. And lots of times I'm dealing with irritability. So what are some of the strategies that you're working with these mom, Like, what kinds of strategies do you develop to help them to say, maybe be less irritable or feel less overwhelmed by the whole process um. The first strategy is taking inventory of who can help. When a new baby is born, so many friends, family, all sorts of people come out and want to see the baby. So my role and sometimes along with they do, is to say, when people come over, Okay, it's so great for you to see the baby. We are we appreciate it, we love it, but mom could really use help with this load of laundry because she's got another child, or just because maybe she's had a c section and she's unable to do it. So it's really involving the partner more and really kind of see and who's in the village and who can help do what because a lot of my mom's with irritability. It's censored not around the baby, but mostly to the partner because of household things that aren't being accomplished. So attacking that first and kind of setting up point people that can really support the family during that critical time from birth to four to six weeks it's cruciow and lessening the irritability. The second part is making sure a mom is getting enough sleep. And I'm sure all the moms might be well in our eyes because it seems like we can't ever get enough sleep because it just doesn't happen. But really trying to carve out that time. So really saying to the partner, and if you have older children in the home like I do, I have two older steps spligns, it's really important that we're quiet for these two hours. It's really important that you can help occupy little so and so and even the baby. You know, if you're not exclusively breast feeding, you have lead with with your partner to say I need you to take this feeding for two hours because my sleep is suffering. And the third thing is diet. I'm not a nutrition iss I'll put that disclaimer out there, but I would suggest that women can work with the doula or work with the nutritionists and really go buy some guidelines. You know, don't consume a lot of sugar Latin foods that are gonna make you crash. Increase your protein, increase your green get healthy juices, and get your friends and family to make things that you can put in the oven that again take the stress off of you. So that is a lot of it sounds like around um moms who you know, maybe early early childhood, you know, like immediate postpartum, but what other kinds of concerns maybe come up for moms who have kids that are a little older, so not necessarily the postpartum tracked, but you know, with a little older kids, what kind of concerns are coming up around those issues? Um monetary issues. You know a lot of women, especially in this country, cannot afford childcare. And that's even if you have a middle school child or a high school child. Money is a big thing. You know, I am a working outside the home mother, so having to leave again that mommy guilt of not being around, but also needing to bring home the dollar, particularly if you're a single black mother. That's the issues all of itself. So I work with those women on self esteem issues, forgiveness of themselves and really again taking inventory of their lives and really prioritizing and saying, you know what, we feel so guilty because you're out of the home maybe ten hours a day, but let's account for those ten hours, making them see, okay, where your child is on school for six and a half hours, this is mandatory, this is something you want, this is on purpose, this is a good thing. So for the rest of that time, whereas the child, those are the four oh there with grandma and maybe with a dad or a partner and an after school program or some enrichment activity. So it's basically extracting pieces of their life and showing them that they're on the right path and having women not feel guilty for the choices that not going have to make, but sometimes they absolutely need to. We all can't stay home, we can't be around. We have to, you know, for a lack of better words, secure the bags. So this is what you have to do. And I think a little um more kind of reality testing and what we're just saying, this is the situation. So how do we make the best of it. And that's where self care repats around perfectly. So carving out the time to take care of yourself. Yeah, at least a lot of what you're talking about. It sounds like when you talk about the strategies is really helping people to kind of get perspective right, like kind of moving away the fall of all of these guilt and like all of the feelings that we place on motherhood or who the idea of a good mother is and really looking at it like, let's just put this on paper and look at the evidence. Correct. Got you? So you talked a little bit about like the self care strategies, and of course, you know, I think a lot of moms have this issue of not feeling like they have time for themselves. So what other kinds of things would you do with moms to help them carve out some time for self care or even you know, some moms will say like I don't even know what to do to take care of myself, Like I'm just not used to having time. So what kinds of things would you do with them to try to like help cultivate a self care routine. Well, the first thing I would do is say, what are things that you enjoy? And you wouldn't believe that so many women have a problem with that question because they've forgotten, because they've gotten into this chronic business cycle. So I say, let's start with the basics. Before you had a family, before you came a mother, who were you? And generally it's usually superficient for things I would sin, I would be young, I would care free, And then we get down to the meat and potatoes. What type of activities did you enjoy? And I've heard everything from exercise into reading books, to do braiding hair, to make in their own back and body products in the kitchen, to cooking. So then I said, well, how can we inject a little bit of this in your daily practice? When can you read? What time do your children go to bed? Are you willing to wake up an hour earlier so that you can get that alone time to read? If you cook, are you willing to say, okay, mom is in the kitchen, this is my time. Let me turn on my iPhone, play my music and cook for an hour and be alone. So it's really fine in little pockets. I try to stay away from things that are gonna cost women money, even if they are at a different socio economic status and may be able to afford it. But I really don't want to give the impression, UM, that you have to be as a spa or that you have to travel and be taking pictures on a plane for self care. There are things you can do every day in your home alone to take care of yourself and nourish yourself. So what inspired you to create motherhood in Motion in the first place? At least, Um, I had my first shot in two thousand fifteen, and I always treated so horribly in the hospital. After I gave birth to her UM, and after I talked to my friends who had never told me their stories, UM, I found that we all had a lot of commonalities, with people either not spreading us for any sort of first part and issues, or just the zoom that we were fine and not even asking about me. You know, I felt very left out. It was all about the baby, and no one realized that my anxiety was so horrible that I couldn't even drive in a car for six weeks after I gave birth. Wow, and what do you You've mentioned that a couple of times at least, like providers not being sensitive or just you know, not really keying into what may be going on with mom. Do you have some ideas about like how moms or prospective moms can screen for those kinds of things, like how would you know whether provider is like somebody who's going to be sensitive to those issues. Well, I think it can be difficult during the pregnancy process because you're not thinking about your own mental health again, you're so baby focused and just trying to get your baby out safely and get through it. A lot of that sense that tends to be the focus. So I would like to see more birth education classes educating parents and really talking to parents about how they can spotifying of moms feeling overwhelmed because lots of times we are so busy and enamored with these little people that it's your partners who say, wow, she or has really changed, as you know, she's not the same. She's sleeping so much, she's so irritable, she's so upset all the time. So I would really like to see um more partners be involved in identifying what it looks like and are there any like particular m questions you could ask a provider to kind of get at whether they're going to be a good man for you. Absolutely. I think the first thing you can do is acts or provider a they are a specialist and postpartum mental health. That's the first thing. And specialist doesn't mean that they necessarily have a degree in postpartum mental health because that doesn't exist. But whether they're an lcs W or an LPC or a SidD ACTIALUS, they've taken any courses where their online or in person, ask them if they've done any community education about postpartiam mental health, specifically working with black women. I think another thing that people should never be afraid to ask is how often do you work with black women in this pregnancy practice. What are some of the unique challenges that you've seen black women have doing the birth, thing and postpartum process that I should look out for. Yeah, I mean, especially like you said, since um, you know, the story around Serena has come out and been so public, I do think that that has really you know, I mean, I know, we all, you know, those of us who do this kind of work and are kind of invested in black women's mental health have been aware of this. But I think her so I really brought it to a national, global level. Um and so I wonder if even like doctors are having these conversations or has this made them aware of, you know, the fact that there has been somebodias in in treatment for black moms. Um. I wonder too. And it was funny because where I received my pregnancy treatment, you know, she asked me, oh, are you um? Um, we do specialize in women of the Jewish faith because there's certain genetic factors that they should, you know, be aware of when conceiving and giving birth. And I just thought to myself, you know, so there's no specializations for black women. So we have certain genetic factors and is and predispositions to us um and definitely our childbirth rate and the rate for c section. But no one had ever said that to me. So I hope that the arena's story is really opening up those doors for providers, and more than anything, I hope that they're willing to listen, right right. That's the important part because people can talk as much as they want, but if they're not listening, then it doesn't really matter. Yes, So are there any new projects or things that you're working on that you want to tell us more about? Um? Right now, it's just a mommy concierge service UM that to day. But I'm really getting back into community education, so I'll be presenting at some local WI offices and in New Jersey that's Women and Children and those offices are subsidized programs from the state and they give out um vout just for food formula. They do a lot of breastfeeding education, so I'll be speaking there, and I'm really seeking to get more community based in my work and do things that are for free because I want every want to have this knowledge and access this sort of education. I don't want this part of my work to be based on anything financial. It is important to me to share the news and commit with other black women and see where it builds from there. Sounds really good. So where can we find you? At least can you give us UM your website as well as any social media handles that you want to share. Absolutely, I'm on Instagram as Motherhood in Motion one word, and I am also can be found on my website ww dot motherhood in motion dot com and you can also email me at Motherhood in Motion at yahoo dot com if you ever need resources or just have a question. I always answer my emails and I love talking to everyone. Oh, you brought up something I definitely would be in trouble if I didn't ask you about some of your favorite resources people love like books and podcasts and stuff that they can check out to Do you have some favorites that you want to say? Yes. One of my favorite podcasts, it's the one I'm on right now. Black Girl. Another podcast that I love and she's actually not a black woman, but she really gives advice about self love and the journey is the Harsh Shaped podcast of H A R. S. H. E. UM. She's a mom of six and she's a big birth advocate of bursting your way. Um. That's really kind of how I got into this work. I was introduced to her podcast and her work first and said, wait a minute, black women need something. Um. And as far as books go, Lasan Thomas's book UM On Your Glow and I can't think of anything right now, but those are the ones that stick out in my mind. Okay, And we will, of course have all this information in the show knows for people to find it and be able to access you know you by email if they have other questions specific about this. Absolutely, Okay, Well, thank you so much. For spending your time with us today. At least I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me dr join. Much blessing and success to you and your company, and I appreciate the work that you continue to do for us. Thank you so much. I'm so excited about all of the important work Elise is doing in this space and thankful she was able to join us for this conversation. You can find the info about the books and podcast she mentioned, as well as information about her practice in the show notes, which can be found at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session forty three. If you're a mom listening to this episode, then we love to hear how you're taking care of your mental health. Share your thoughts and tips with us on social media, and make sure to use the hashtag TBG in session. If you are looking for a therapist in your area, then make sure that you're looking through our therapist directory. You can find that at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to join us over in the Thrive tribe, where we continue the conversations that we have on the podcast and talk about all kinds of other things, head on over to therapy for Black Girls dot com slash tribe and join us to keep up with important updates and mental health information. Make sure that you're following us across all social media channels. If you're following us on Facebook and Instagram, then you know that I started a new live chat with me last week called three for Thursdays. Every Thursday at noon Eastern Standard time, I'll be live on both Facebook and Instagram to discuss three pieces of information to help you get your life together. Last week, we discussed three ways to take care of yourself after a breakup. If you want to catch that video, it's still up on Facebook, but make sure that you're following us so that you don't miss the future chats. You can find us on Twitter at Therapy for the Number four be Girls, and you can find us on Instagram and Facebook at Therapy for Black Girls. Please make sure to continue to share the podcast with your online and real life friends so that we can keep on growing our community. You can do that by texting them, tweeting them, or sharing your information about the podcast in your instat stories. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week, and I'm looking forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon take good care. Two