The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
Dr. Donna Oriowo, M.Ed, MSW, CST joins us on the podcast this week to chat all about the season premiere of HBO's Insecure. She and I chatted about all the opportunities that were missed to have some difficult but necessary conversations, how Molly's lack of self-awareness impacts her relationships, why brutal honesty doesn’t work, why it’s important to have tough conversations even if they’re super awkward, and she gives us a beautiful script for anyone who needs to have the “what are we” convers
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And just for y'all, Helix is offering up to two hundred dollars off all mattress orders and two free pillows at helix Sleep dot com slash Therapy for Black Girls. Just go to Helix Sleep dot com slash Therapy for Black Girls, take their two minute sleep quiz and they'll match you to a customize mattress that will give you the best sleep of your life. Now let's jump into the show. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. Finally, the moment that many of us have been waiting for has arrived. Insecure is back for season four, and right out of the gate, they're already giving us tons to talk about. So of course I had to grab my friend in colleague Dr Donna Orio wo to chat all about what we saw in the season premiere. Dr Orio who is an author, international speaker, and certified sex and relationship therapists in the Washington, d c. Man True Area. The owner of a nod Right. Dr Donna specializes in working with black women on issues related to colorism and texturism and its impact on mental and sexual health. She's the author of Cocoa Butter and Hair Grease, a self love Journey through Hair and Skin. She's an advocate for sexual freedom, self love, acceptance, and accomplishment for women of color, especially Black women. She collects inspiring quotes It's Donuts and Love's Pasta. She and I chatted all about the opportunities that were missed to have some difficult but necessary conversations in this episode, why brutal honesty doesn't work, why it's important to have tough conversations even if they're super awkward, and she gives us a beautiful script for anyone who needs to have the what are we conversation. If you hear anything that resonates with you while listening, please be sure to share it with us on social media using the hashtag TBG in session. Here's our conversation. So we're talking about Jesus growth that has seemingly happened even though she has not been in therapy with Molly has been in therapy. Yes, yes, I mean the way that she was able to uh to communicate with T. S A Bay like, all right, this position is not working, this position is not working. Now. I would be remiss if I didn't point out that he definitely kept going for a little bit before he he did what she had to say and switch things up good. But I mean, aside from that whole consent error, because that is an error in constant I would be remiss if I didn't say one of my clients was talking about it about just like how can you keep going if somebody is saying no, that consent is actually a full body Yes, not just all right, we can keep on, but a full body We I'm in this urine, this let's be in this piece together sort of space. But for me, it was more about ease than anything. She was able to open her mouth and say, you know what, this don't work for me? Can we switch? Is not working for me? Like a couple of seasons ago, she might not have had that conversation. Nah, she had kept those feelings to ourselves. Yeah yeah, So okay, so let's let's get into the episode and we would just kind of see how it flows. Right. Um, So, I really they are just so much to unpack. So we have our season premiere, season four premiere of Insecure, which you know we all were waiting for, right, and so I feel like the overarching team for a lot of this episode was really difficult conversations that people either did not have or did not have. Will what are your thoughts? Oh? Yeah, the communication was way off. I was just like some of the stuff was those difficult conversations, those pieces that needed to happen, but happened kind of awkwardly. But at the same time, I was commending on even having an awkward conversation because I feel like Lisa, and in fact, she would have just avoided whatever she could avoid. You would have done that. That is such a good point, doctor Oriole Right, like this idea that conversations aren't always going to be perfect, right, And as much as we script in our own head and think Okay, I'm gonna save this and they're gonna save this, and I'm gonna saying this, and they're gonna say this, and this is how this is going out right and never never actually plays out like that in real life. But an awkward conversation in the interests of getting our feelings heard and being able to put things on the table, it's still better than no conversation at all. Absolutely, And I think that oftentimes we don't we don't necessarily recognize that just because the conversation is difficult, just because it feels awkward, just because it feels a little off, that's an that we are not still doing our stuff to make sure that we're having the conversation in the first place, wherever the conversation comes out, because I'm just like I'm a proponent, or have the conversation and see what happens later, then don't have the conversation at all, as you did. So, what are some things that you think that make it difficult for us to even engage in the conversations. Well, one thing that I have noticed, and yeah, my class to be able to test this, is we have so much anxiety about how the other person is going to receive it that instead of saying the thing that we need to say, we say what we think we need to say in order for them to better understand what we are trying to say, which means in reality, we didn't say nothing. And this is where I redirect people. You gotta say it with your inner asshole first, with your inner anshole first, say it in an asshole. In our asshole is gonna say it exactly the way that it needs to be saved. Same so like and sometimes when saying it to the person, sometimes we were just like, all right, what is the what is my main thing here? My main thing here is that you're hurtful? Harmful and I don't like that. So instead, well, you know when you say this, you know um. And then I was just thinking like, oh that could be no, no, no no, say it with your in an asshole. Write it down. What was the thing that you really needed to say? You harm me with your words, that's what you really needed to say, So write that down, like your asshole when you talk to me, now, flip it, make it cleaner, make it something that if someone told you you could hear it. Use your eye statements wherever possible. I feel like this when this happens, it gives you an opportunity to say what you actually need to say, is that are trying to interpret for your friend how they're gonna take what you've got to say. So see, I definitely want us to stay here from moment because I feel like this is what especially when we look at this episode, right, I think this is kind of what a part of Molly's issue is, right, like this whole inner asshole, so the asshole, right, it's not speaking from no place but her own insecurity. So you're advocating though, maybe getting some of those thoughts out on paper before you actually have the conversation to make sure that it is in its purest form, but that there is still a way to communicate with people that does not necessarily come across abrasive exactly honestly saying it with your an asshole, it's really about even more than being about having the conversation that needs to be had. Just like that, it's also about a certain level of self awareness. Molly lacks software because if she was self aware, especially towards the end of the episode, talking about some of your life is messy, Who does that, sir? How does that serve? It doesn't? I'm just like, that's not constructing of criticism, that's not constructed feedback. Your life is messy. You know, life doesn't have to be this messy. I'm just like, and and where in here did you think this was supposed to be something that was helpful? Right? And I think the other piece of that that, of course was concerning, was the timing, right, Like, even if that was a conversation that you feelt like you needed to have with Lisa, did it need to be this night where she's like on a cloud and she's really proud of herself for you know, pulling off the mixer and you know, feeling like, Okay, I'm really stepping into this thing and now you have this conversation with her that completely like dims her life. Yep. That's one of those moments where I'm like, you gotta possible. Who does this serve? Because honestly, Molly, it's funny because I listen to Jesus sent you off and uh, they talk who love Jay and and yvon Orthy. They both talk about like how Nigerians could be so brutal in their honesty and I'm just like, you know what, it's true, and it's problematic as a as a fellow Nigerian, I can say that if that stuff is problem matic because brutal honesty doesn't actually serve anybody. Brutal honesty, honestly, it seems to be more about one person's her ego, pride, or the need to feel better than somebody else by bringing them down by telling the truth as harshly as possible. Right, there is a way to be honest with your loved ones and people that you care about that does not have to be brutal exactly, because brutality does not necessarily bring growth, but it does brain is defensiveness, but it can't bring is distance And if those are not the things that you are trying to achieve with the type of conversation that you're having, but I'm gonna go out on a limit and say that your brutal honesty is unnecessary and probably needs to be more like compassionate honesty, loving honesty, friendship based honestly, and none of those things would be brutal. Right. It seems like it's the perspective Molly had right, because she said, you know, like, oh, life doesn't have to be this messy. It feels like you like this kind of thing, And she said, I'm just trying to help you be accountable, right, It's something that they discussed earlier in the episode, and so it feels like in her mind she is that is that brutal honesty, Like I'm gonna say this to you, even though it may be hurtful, the truth maybe her harmful. It can it can definitely shake somebody up, but it's also gonna be about your timing and about what else is going for you at the time that you decided that someone needs to hear what you got to say. I'm like, were you feeling a little jealous that Condola was seemingly taking your shine, taking your place as somebody that she said is was really hopeful for her in that moment? Is it because Andrew decided to tell you that he was seeing other people because y'all are just having fun? Is it because Esa told you that, Hey, if you like this dude, you should tell him. Yeah? I mean, even going back to the beginning of the mixer, right, like Molly came into the situation like Okay, yeah, this is going on for you, but can we talk about like my dating issue right now? And so yeah, of course that comes late after she was late and all frisday. I was like, Okay, serving drinks over here and willing to take one for the team. You got the other one whole pregnant self, having full on conversations with people trying to get this money. I'm like, you know, airport by t s a by outside trying to hype people up before they even get in. I'm just like, Molly, where were you? Yeah, and even on the way, you know, it feels like she was throwing shade, telling Andrew like, oh, this might be a little homegrown. Yeah, yeah, I mean so it just feels like you're right, Like, I feel like one of the major issues are the major things that Molly really needs to kind of look at is her self awareness. Like it just feels like she is very unaware of how she comes across in situations and really just doesn't have insight into herself about like the kinds of things that makes her tick and why she didn't acts out in the ways that she does. Oh, she is wearing the sunglasses of her insecurity, and that is how she sees the world around her. The second that Pisa is want to come up, does not necessarily need her to bolster her in the same way she gotta smack her down. Mm hmmm, like that speaks more to Molly's insecurity than it does to anybody else's, right, right, Yeah, And so you know, it feels like it's very difficult because I do also think that there are some loving pieces, right, Like I do honestly think that she cares about Issa, but I think her lack of self awareness makes it difficult for her to realize how she's not really being a friend in this relationship. Oh, I'm glad dude said that. He It's funny because, um, I talked about love all the time, right, Um, sex and relationship stuff. Everybody wants to talk about the love peace when I find my love or when I'm gonna get this, when I'm gonna get that. But and and I'm always like, well, how much how well do you love you? How well do you love on yourself? And I'm not one of those people that believe that if you don't love yourself, then you can't find somebody that's gonna love you to it, because I do believe that it's a harmful statement. However, if you love yourself at a teaspoon level, and you've got friends that love you on a teaspoon level, you will always feel ful. But when you upgrade to loving yourself at a tablespoon or a cup, that teaspoon is not doing anything for you. You are now going to start noticing where it falls short. And the thing is, we always have the ability to upgrade the level of love that we give ourselves else. But part of it is also how is it yo with the people around us? See nothing like one thing that has come up consistently en up in therapy, whether it's romantic relationships or friendships or family relationships. When someone loves themselves on a one cup because they change, they've grown, they learn more about themselves, and they appreciate those things and they love those things deeply and fully. Those relationships where somebody has been loving them on a teaspoon level, it doesn't hit quite the same, and they recognize that that friend, that lover, that family member cannot receive their love the same either, because when you have a cup of love to give and somebody only has the capacity for a teaspoon, you can only give so much before they're full. M But that thing works in the reverse, so they can't feel you upping. You are overflowing into them, and that's what it feels like half and when you saw that look on Issa's face when she felt really cut. I think by the statement that Molly said about you know you love miss Um, I think that that was her recognizing that her capacity had grown and that something about this felt really all. They were no longer equally yoke. Yeah. I know, we only people only talk about being equally yoked where it comes to lovers, where it comes to potential lifelong mates, but friendships are also potential lifelong mates. And making sure that we're remembering that even our friendships, we are looking for people that are equally yoke. I think that that is also important to remember. And I'm not saying that everybody is gonna be exactly in the same place as you. That's not that's not even necessary. But if you're Ace Boom Coom came, love you right, hurt your feelings, acts like Molly, what are you gonna do about that? Yeah? I think that leads into another important conversation, right, And we talked about this a little bit on the episode with Dr Franco, just about the ways that we also need to nurture our friendships, like we pour so much into our romantic relationships, and I think We've seen that with Molly, right Like, when we did see her going to therapy, though she was not being honest, what we did see her talking a lot about was her romantic relationships, right, Like, a lot of it was centered around the relationship with Dreux and stuff like that. And so again, her lack of self awareness I think doesn't even allow her to see the way that she operates in her friendships. Yeah, because she operates in the space of secrecy almost and like unstated expectations. She knows what she wants in a sense, but then she don't tell nobody, but they're supposed to know what she wants and be on the exact same page as her, even though there's been no communication about where they're what they're doing, where they're going, and how they're supposed to be. So like Molly changed her mind about when the night she was serious about Andrew, and when Andrew says, yeah, I am dating other people, then it's like, oh, I'm like, well, did you have a conversation? Right, So this brings us to the next difficult conversation that it feels like there was a missed opportunity, right, And I think that there is a bigger conversation to be had, because I know lots of us struggle with this idea of a conversation about what are we right? So you see people all the time having real difficulty when they've kind of had this situation or whatever with somebody and now they're, you know, feelings have gotten a little stronger, and so then there's all this difficulty around how do I have this conversation? Honestly, the whole thing is just it's almost so childish, like no tea, no shay, no leminade. Because I know some of the people out here live there life just like this. But if you're not willing to have a conversation with a person that you're interested, it about the fact that you are interested. That's number one, and then number two about what your expectations are, and ask them what their expectations are. Then what are you doing? Because if you live your life at like this in one area, I am inclined to believe that you live your life like that in other areas, which means that the communication gotta be off at word, the communication gotta be off at family gatherings and functions, because you can't even be bothered lest somebody know exactly what's going on for you and with you that you're trying to carry on an intimate relationship with. I'm like that whole lack of conversation. I'm looking like, you know what, if you don't have orgasms, that's why you keep your communication to yourself, if you have boo boo boo boo boo boo boo relationships, and that's why you keep hath the you keep all your secrets to yourself, but want people to just sort of fill in the blake but not have no information. Yeah, and it and it really feels like, especially in this example, it feels like it could have been an easy end for her to say, you know not maybe not at the time where they were driving, right, Like that might not have because they were on their way so they probably wouldn't have had enough time. But instead of having the conversation, not only did she not have the conversation, then her attitude got all off, right, So now she's right, yeah, they and people too, right, Instead of you know, saying like, okay, clearly my feelings have changed. Obviously we need to have a conversation about that. Now she's you know, doing the molly thing of self sadvertaging what we've seen her do before, you know. So it wasn't even about not just having the conversation. It was also about now the dynamic has shifted in the other person has no idea what's even going on? Yeah, but he's supposed to guess yeah, yeah. And I was just like, wow, Molly, this was your moment, This was your moment to be like because you're right, it's definitely not necessarily the right time to be having the conversation because they're on their way somewhere, and that means it's a limited conversation. It doesn't have enough time for both parties get all the points that come from each other, time to breathe, to let expectations be known, and maybe even to think about it further. But that was a great That would have been a great opportunity to just begin to just say, you know what, I actually would like to talk to you more about that. Maybe we could talk about it a little bit more after the party, because my feelings about that has changed and I don't know that. Um I want to be open. So if you're open to having that conversation, can we have it after the party? Right? I'm not when I look at that no funky attitude, expectation about what the conversation is going to entail, and some truth to about exactly what it is that she's looking for as opposed to, oh yeah, i'm dating people too, right, because it looks like it looked like she was surprised by her own feelings of even hearing him say that he was seeing other people. Right, So I think up until that point she may have kind of been playing into it, like, oh, this is not that serious, you know, we're having fun. And then when she recognized like, okay, there may be other people in the picture, then she realized it's like, oh I might be a little more attached and not what's just fair, like that's okay. But again, if there had been enough time before she reacted, she could have you know, leaned into those feelings to think about like, Okay, what is coming up for me here? Am I really wanting to be more serious with him? Or am I just feeling threatened about the idea of other people? Like what's happening? And then had a conversation with him. But now she has reacted, Yeah, now she had no she's her whole, but so avoided him at this function that she invited him to then ditched them at the end, right, like, I know that somebody somewhere is gonna be like now she was just trying to help EASA clean up. Now she was using EASA as an excuse not to talk to him. Good point, very good point. And then I just you know, like, oh, I don't need to think I'm gonna talk to him anymore. I'm like, wow, yeah, we got all the way thereination as to what happened here. Yeah, But I think that's also a good example of her um Like we talked about this, the lack of self awareness that she wasn't even aware how like her stuff with Andrew then was impacting her stuff with Issa and vice versa. Right, so she has all of these feelings involved related to the both of them, and it just kind of combusted, and she is not even aware that things have kind of gone down the way they have. And you know what, she's one of the prime people that would be like, oh, I'm my baby, you are well. She even said that, right. She even said when she told Issa that she was no longer talking to Andrew, she said, I'm no longer entertaining things that don't serve me, and I want to spend some time here because I feel like this is something that a lot of people see, right like, and there is some truth to this, right Like, you do want to be again self aware enough to know when things are like in your life in a way that is no longer good for you. But I think that has to come after there has been some tough conversation sometimes when you've really been honest with yourself and other people in your life. What she was doing, it feels like was just cutting him off. Yep, that was avoidance at the highest highest level. Yeah, and I hear that stuff all the time. Oh, I'm just I'm not entertaining that type of thing anymore. I'm not doing things that don't serve me. I'm like, you sound so cute, you do. I just feel like, you know what, that sounds so cute. It sounds great in theory, except what I'm really hearing you say is that you want to avoid having the conversation altogether and just want to go somebody or just not engage in the conversation. That may be too difficult for you, So instead you get to say something cavalier like I'm not doing things that don't serve me anymore without ever having opened up your mouth and talk about what the issue has been, what you would like to see happened, and give the person a moment to even try to respond, but instead, you know, we leave. We're good. When I had in that conversation, And I think it's funny because you know, last season when dude goes to Issa, everybody was up in that feelings like, yo, he's just gonna disappear. None of us have ever called Molly out on doing the same thing. Very good point, So what do you think the difference is there? We like Molly, it has been around longer, right, Like Nathan just breathed in in season three and we hadn't gotten necessarily very attached to him. But I also feel we're showing that threw him out when yeah, we was like, oh no, you can't come fide back in here. What I do. The presentation is also a little different, right, you know, it really seems like there had been so much build up between Nathan and Issa, then it felt very like whoa where did that come from? That he just kind of fell off, right mm hmm. Yeah, So the presentation did feel a little different, but You're right. In in action, they are basically both doing the same thing. They're ghosters, and I think that sometimes we can relate to the one that we know, right, so we get more of Molly. We've seen more of Molly, so it doesn't feel like ghosts, And when Molly does it, it feels like, yeah, that's the same thing I do. And I'm like, yeah, that's a problem. We're ghosting people because we don't want to have difficult conversations. We're saying that the thing doesn't serve me and then refusing to have a conversation about the thing that doesn't serve us. We're not ready to do that work, to put in the labor that we want someone to put in with us. And I'm like, well, we can't. We can't do things halfway like that. We make excuses for us, but we'll never allow people to bring forth their own concerns and their own history and how they interact with us. We only let ourselves have our history, and everyone else's history be damned. So is there a line, doctor Oriole about when it's okay to have a conversation about things and when maybe a conversation really isn't necessary. I think yes and no, it's it's odd. I'm a person that more times than not believe that conversation is probably going to be worn. But if there was a line, I would say, are you bothered? That's the line. How are you feeling about how this thing went down? Is this a person that is in your life and has been in your life for a while and it's something that continually comes up? Versus is this a person that is this the guy at Jeffy Lou They you're only gonna be talking to them? Put up next five minutes? Good point. Good point. I think I guess the level of the relationship, your investment in the thing, and how much you're like, are you willing to continue to deal with the same thing time after time after time? Or is this something that I can no longer continue to do on this towort of behavior in you towards me. I think the line also happens at abuse, right. You know, so if somebody has been physically or emotionally abusive for you, that is not necessarily a time where we're talking about having a conversation, because that is very clear that that is like aligne in the sand. So you are not necessarily going to them and saying like, hey, can we talk about this thing because we know how the cycle little abuse worked, right, Um, So we're definitely not advocating for that. We're talking about things that maybe can be changed, right, things that you know, like like we see with Molly and Andrew, like okay, can you give him an opportunity to say, Okay, I'm interested in you and I'd like to see how this plays out exclusively. Yeah, everything doesn't necessarily need that conversation, right, Although I do also recognize that for some people, you know, when we talk about the wheel of power and control and what actually entails abuse, a lot of people don't recognize that they have been abusive as well as they have been abused. So talking about the financial ways that it comes off, the gaslighting that people go through minimizing as well as the emotional and mental and even physical components. So a lot of us are not necessarily recognizing that some of the behaviors that we have engaged in our abusive, especially since sometimes TV will have us believing that those are romantic gestures. Good points, very good points. I think the other thing about having difficult conversations is that we can't necessarily be super invested in like the outcome of the conversation, because the conversation is more about you just making your feelings known and heard right now? Yes, yes, yeah, so like going back to your earlier comment about you know, a lot of times we avoid these conversations because we're so anxious about how the other person is going to respond that we don't even have the conversation. But really trying to bring some of the anxiety down by saying, no, I deserve to have my thoughts and feelings heard and validated, and that's why I'm engaging in the conversation exactly. I mean, for some of my clients, I'll have nothing think about, like, what is the worst case scenario if you have this conversation. The worst case scenario is that maybe this person stopped talking to you, but you are already there at a place where you don't want to talk to them. Okay, what's the best case scenario? The best cases that they listen to you, that they hear you, that they apologize for their wrong doings, that actually make strikes to change. Is the best case scenario worth the possibility of the worst case scenario when you already got one foot out of that door, like the little cost benefit analysis, the termine isn't even worth it for you to do this thing. And I think that most people find that for the relationship that they're really thinking about, it actually is worth having that conversation because they do want to continue quite desperately. They just don't know how to have the conversation right. And I think going back to the conversation around what are we right? Like when you're in a romantic relationship, I think sometimes we are so afraid that if we introduce the conversation it will like run the other person away, and so we often avoid difficult conversations because we think that's going to make the relationship fractured in some way, when a lot of times it actually brings the relationship closer. Yep. And on top of that, I'm like half the people I know are trying to be on there Beyonce in some way, shape or form. I'm looking like I have that conversation because they could be the best thing you never had. You can waste a whole year being in somebody's situation ship, or you can have a conversation with them, what are we? What are we doing? These are the things that I'm looking for within the context of a relationship, and it seems like this is where we're going, but I'm not your so I wanted to check in with you about what we're doing. Yes, that way, you don't waste a gear, like wasting a couple of months versus wasting a whole year. You know that's just a little bit different. Yeah, it's a big difference. And you're right, And I love the way that you just phrase that, right, because I think the other thing that happens is that we get really in our heads about how we're gonna say it, and you just gave us a beautiful example, like, Hey, I just want to check in, right, So it's no pressure, I'm just checking in with you so I know how I feel. I'm checking in on what are your thoughts, And then that allows you to make a decision about whether this is something you want to continue with or whether you don't exactly And sometimes it's just like, oh, I didn't know that you were daming other people. Thank you for letting me know, Well, do you wanna do you want to be exclusive with me? Or like, what's what are you thinking about that? Because I was thinking that I do kind of like you, So I would. I would love to explore what we've got going, But if you're also going to continue to date, then I just want to make sure that we're clear that I'm also going to do the same until we both get into a place where we feel that we can be exclusive. Right, And it's okay to say that it doesn't have to be seen as like an ultimatum, right Again, it is really just a checking in to see where this other person is. Yeah, I'm like, an ultimatum is that stuff where it's like you have a choice, you can do this or you can do that. But I'm not saying ultimatum. I'm saying, what are your choices for you? What are the things that will make you feel okay and comfortable. You get to choose for you and inform that person about what your choice is gonna be and then move in that energy. You have to move in a way that does serve you. But you can't be like, oh well I'm gonna do me or I'm not entertaining things that don't serve me with no communication. Right, those are not the same thing. Yeah. The other difficult conversation that I feel like, um was very, very awkward. Was this whole situation between Issa, Candola, and Laurence. So now Issa finds out that Candola is actually dating her ex um and in the most awkward situation that that could be found out, right, Like, Tiffany comes into the office and she's like, oh, yeah, we met at the baby shower too, But Tiffany, I just say nothing. It feels like there has been some conversation on Aline about whether Tiffany actually knew. I'm gonna give her the benefit of the doubt and say she did think that it was only like the one date that never turned into anything, but that she didn't actually know, right, Like, I would hope that she's not like withholding this information from Issa in that kind of way. We will stay tuned to see if we are correct about that. So when Issa finds out, of course she's like, oh no, it's not a big deal kind of thing, right, which is it feels like typical Issa. But as the episode continues and we see them kind of again have these awkward interactions at the mixer, it does feel like she doesn't fully awkward so awkward. I mean, we're definitely giving back to our awkward black girl days. Here right, you know, So they have these awkward interactions at the mixer, but it does feel like she gets to a place where she is genuinely feeling like, Okay, you know, this person has been incredibly helpful to me. You really enjoy each other's company. Maybe I can be okay with this. So what are your thoughts about, Like, could that conversation have gone differently? How do you handle a very awkward situation like this? Probably just like she did. Like, honestly, I wasn't that mad at how she handled it in that moment, and I wasn't because I know that it came as a surprise. She was clearly so processing the information and at the same time trying to inject some level of humor to sort of bring down that tension. So I could appreciate those those efforts that he's to put in toward it. But I'm also happy that she got to a place I felt like she took a step back and thought about for herself, is this something that I can deal with? And how am I gonna make this work? As opposed to I've got to make this thing work because she helps me so much. I think it came full circle to a I can make this thing work because I am going to miss her if I don't right right, And I think that for me that I was like, oh, snap, who are improressive? Yeah? I mean, and again, you know it's okay for things to be awkward, right, and while we're figuring it out, but that you stay in it. I think that's what we saw illustrated here really nicely, was that they both stayed in it and figured it out. Like even Condola took some time with Lawrence right, like, Hey, I was surprised by this situation. I feel like I need a rain check to kind of see how I'm feeling about this. Is this something I want to continue with? Condola is a model citizen. Abrilever Candola Abriel. It's just like, go, hey, like you went there, you had the conversation. You wanted to make sure that he knew that you know that this this is this is the thing, this is the situation. I'm feeling awkward about it. I know that. I mean five years right, true, So well, I'm gonna go home now. I forgot the thing. She took that time to be like, you know what I need I need some space. I need some space to think for some folks, they just be like, they take the space, but they don't say anything. You go. The other person has no idea what is going on. But Lawrence is not in the dark. He knows. He's like, Okay, I recognize that this thing may be difficult because you're becoming very close friends with someone that I was with five years. So I think that this will be interesting as we continue throughout the season. So we didn't mention this in the beginning, but the episode actually opens with a flash forward, right, so this is four months, yes, four months past the Black Party, and we're here E's on the phone saying like she doesn't mess with Molly anymore, and then there's a flashback to four months ago when the Black Party was still being playing. So we know that likely we will end up somewhere in this season where there has been a serious rupture in the relationship between Molly and I don't know how much more serious doesn't have to get Yeah, I'm right, what is going to be the thing? I mean, because it seems like you know, and in terms of looking at like the little sneak peek they gave us for like the next episode, Um, it doesn't seem like just that conversation at the mixer is what does it? Um? We see there's a little tension between her when Gondola is at the table with with pizza, um, and she's like, Oh, I thought it was just gonna be us um. So I'm curious to know also, like is there going to be like a singular event that makes Eisa realize like, Okay, this is just not cool anymore. I'm like, math, take it back, take it back, add it up. Yeah, it does feel like there have been lots of you know, situations kind of growing that got us to this place. Um. And so I guess we will see, uh as the season continues, you know, what is the thing that kind of pushes it over the edge. Yes, I am definitely excited to see what that is. Any other predictions for season four? Honestly, I'm just in a state of just glued, just wanting to know exactly how do these things go down, how does the things come to pass? What is it that for like, especially from Issa, like what happens for Easa that she can no longer take but she has, as far as I can tell, already been taken Molly. So I'm definitely excited to see how this plays out. And I'm also hoping that the ease with which the multitude of people on black Twitter were able to say that Molly is an issue or has an issue, that they were able to talk about how she just needs somebody to be in a one dawn position. I'm hoping that they recognize that they have Molli's in their lives and that for some of them they are the Molly and other people's m hmm. But you know you're not ready for that level of Well, you have brought this awful circle, right, and this is an invitation for us to all look a little deeper. Like, you know, if we look at the numbers, everybody is not an ether. So are very likely at some points in our lives we may have been the monthy right, And so even if you're not necessarily still in that place, Um, at some point you could have been right. And there's no harm in thinking about, Okay, yes, I was in that position, and now this is the work that I've done to not be in that position. To be Um, this is the work that I still have to do, right, But it's never ending, Yeah, it's never ending. So especially recognizing that we can be a strong friend to some friends and be less of a strong friend to other friends, recognizing that like, yeah, you could be the cheerleader Issa or a Condola over here, but be more of a Molly over there, and recognizing well, what's the difference here? Yes, yeah, in different dynamics with different people. Of course, we are different in in certain relationships. So I mean, this is the stuff that we love, right, like the fascinating ways of course which these characters, and we are only seeing them as characters, right. We don't have a full scope of people's lives, but I do think it gives us an opportunity to think about our own behavior and like the relationships we have with other people in our lives, and in assessing are these things that are okay for us? Or they are there ways that we need to improve? Yeah, And honestly, I feel like everybody has space where they can grow and improved. Of course, of course, I mean my partner and now we are constant we have a conversation about what we feel we got from one another and what else we need from each other, because as you go through life, the dynamics are always going to change. Is simply because life is right I mean we are getting a real taste of that right now. Right, you know, a lot of us are sheltering at home, you know, in confined spaces with people for hours. You know that we wouldn't necessarily be right, and so I think that this is giving us an opportunity to renegotiate. Okay, what does this relationship look like? And does it need to look differently right now? Exactly? So, um, if you don't mind, I'd like to offer them something that's free. We love me or some of my clients. You know, this was, like I said, this is a constant, consistent conversation, this piece about communication and the relationships that they have, a family, friends, lovers. So because of them, I created a re anation ship goals. Got it is free. It is available through my Instagram. It is one of the links in there and it says highest tag relationship goals. Got un lets you know that he is free. Okay, so get you that and I'll see if I can have my assistant make it PD affillable so that it's not something that you have the print sins. I know we own a budget. Very good point, very good point. So tell us where we can find you Drrio. I know that people will want to live tweet with you next Sunday as we continue to watch this season, So tell us where we can find you on social On Instagram, you can find me at A nod right, that's my first name backwards A N n O d R I g h T on Twitter at Dr donnad Oreo. Oh no, I'm not gonna tell you nowhere else. That's enough. That's enough, and of course we will include all of that in this show notes. And your website. What's your website? Not right dot com And if you're wanting to talk about colors and textures and stuff, d C B h G dot com, so Cocoa Butter and hair Grease dot com. Yes, that is her amazing workbook and full line of products. At this point we have surpassed just the work book all about colorism and texturism. So if y'all miss Dr oriole will on her previous episode you definitely want to go back and listen to that, will include that in the show notes as well, so you don't miss her other appearance where she gave us lots of great information there as well. Well. Thank you so much for joining me again. I really appreciate it. We will be turning it on always. Like honestly, I finished the episode, my mouth just opened. I was just like, what al right? What happened here? We got to talk about it like Molly's Girls. Thank you. I'm so glad Dr oriole Will was able to join us again this week. Don't forget to check out the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session, to grab your copy of her Relationship Goals worksheet, or to grab your copy of Cocoa Butter and Hair Grease. And please be sure to share your takeaways with us on social media using the hashtag tpg in session and share this episode with the other insecure fans in your life. If you're looking for a virtual therapist, be sure to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue digeting into this topic and meet some other systems in your area, come on over and join us in the Yellow House Collective, where we take a deeper dive into the topics from the podcast and just about everything else. You can join us at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash y c C. Don't forget to show our sponsors Some Love, Going to Hell Makes Sleep dot Com, slash Therapy for Black Girls to get up to two hundred dollars off your mattress orders, and two three pillows. Thank you all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take you care what