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Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcasts, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information, visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. And while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session sixty eight of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. I'm excited to share that the TBG store is now officially open for business, so if you've been waiting to get your hands on merch for the podcast as you can find it at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash shop. For today's episode, I'm joined by Jennie Hopgood to discuss healing after a miscarriage. Janet is a couple and family therapists, clinical sexologists, and sexuality educator in the Philadelphia area. She's originally from Brooklyn, New York, and holds two master's degrees. In marriage and family therapy and human sexuality education. She is currently a doctoral candidate at Widener University working on her dissertation for a PhD in Human sexuality studies. Janet is also the founder of the blog black angel Mom dot com, which focuses on parinatal laws in the black community as well as family creation. Her passions include working with lgbt Q plus black couples, in individuals, parenting, family of origin issues, fertility issues, film empowerment, processing, grief and lawss, black feminism, racial justice, and healthy sexuality. Jane and I chatted about some of the common challenges experienced after a miscarriage, how miscarriages impact partnerships, how to support a loved one who's had a miscarriage, and of course, she shared all of her favorite books for you to learn more. If you hear something you think others should hear while you're listening, please share it on social media using the hashtag tv G in Session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Janney, Thank you, thank you for having me. Yeah, so I know you know. We talked about um the statistics right of how often women actually are struggling with miscarriages. So one in four pregnancies you mentioned, actually we do end in miscarre So this is likely an issue that lots of people know about and have experienced, and sometimes even if they didn't know that they were pregnant, right exactly, absolutely. Yeah, the statistics that I mentioned is definitely for people who were aware that they were pregnant, so that's what the reporting is about. But there's all those people who may just have thought that they had a late period um that actually were pregnant but lost the pregnancy. So yeah, yeah, and so can you tell me a little bit about what are some of the common concerns or things that come up for women after a miscarriage. Yeah, So, perinatal mood and anxiety disorders in general, we sometimes refer to them as p mads. Um, they come up for anyone who has um, or can come up for anyone who has had any kind of child or pregnancy or whatever. But definitely when there's a loss involved, it's kind of complicated. Um. So you're looking at the grief stuff right of, like, oh my gosh, what's what's going on with my body? What happened in the situation, All the uh stages of grief as we could go through them if we wanted to. But like, all those same things happen for people who experience paran neatal laws. And then things like anxiety and depression and irritability and anger UM O c D you know, obsessive compulsive types of UM disorders and and just behaviors UM even psychosis. And you know where you're seeing or hearing things or having delusions or just seeming kind of odd and out of it and not like yourself. Um, all those things, all those things show up. Disordered thinking, UM, sometimes people feeling like they want to hurt themselves or other people, suicidal ideation, all that kind of stuff UM comes up. Yeah, and UM, can you talk more about like the O c DPS, Like do you know why like O c D type behaviors might be something that pops up afterwards. Sure it's really about um wanting to be a perfectionist to a degree of p. But who actually people who have more perfectionistic type of characteristics and their regular personality are more likely to developed forms of postpartum depression and perinatal mood and anxiety disorders because things are not especially also if you're related to if you're having a loss, right because things didn't go the way that you wanted them to go. So then you become very hyper vigilant and very focused on making things happen the way that you want them to happen. So that can come out as UM, excessive cleaning that can come out of your space of yourself. That can come out as obsessive thoughts or um, you know, just constantly ruminating over what happened and what you could have done differently, or what you would do next time, and who did what, and and just not being able to get a handle on the impulses or the thoughts that you're actually having UM as a result of feeling really out of control. UM. So then you're trying to kind of make up for that, and your brain is trying to figure out your body too, just trying to figure out, like, what the heck just happened and how can we you know, correct that to get through this distressing period? Right, And I can imagine um, you know, and kind of listening to people's stories and reading one of the common things that come up for people is guilt, like is there something that I could have done to avoid this? Um? So can you talk more about that, because I'm sure you see a lot of that. Yeah, absolutely, I mean, you know there's this though parenthood and motherhood is not for every person with a vagina and a uterus, right, Like every person doesn't want to do that. Our society tells us that that's what a woman's role is. So there's all this messaging that we get around. If you have these body parts, then that means that you should be making babies, and when you don't do that, it makes you question. Or when you're not able to, or something comes up and and you're able to maybe get pregnant, but then you lose it, or you're able to go through almost your entire pregnancy and the baby passes away or there's a placental abruption or there's something that goes on with your body. You then start to blame yourself, right, And that's again part of like stages of grief and laws where you're trying to figure out what happened, and you're trying to bargain and you're trying and you're always thinking about what did I do? Or what if I had called the doctor sooner, What if I had not lifted that heavy thing, what if I hadn't had sex that day, or what if I didn't eat that spicy tune a roll or something, you know what I mean, Like whatever, you start to think about all these different things that you should have, could have, would have done, and hopes that that would make it different, that make the outcome different. So it's kind of like, you know what happened, but you're struggling with accepting that reality. And then you're feeling guilty because in our messaging, our body is supposed to be able. Our bodies are supposed to be be able to hold and create life. So when it doesn't happen, it's kind of throws everything off and you feel like it's something that I did right, because like guilt is like I did something bad, and shame is like I am bad. So sometimes those two things interlock and overlap and all that, but definitely people experience that, like I did something that caused this thing to happen. And people also say horrible things to people who have lost children. That don't think that they always mean to say not so great things, But people are always trying. Everyone's always trying to figure out the why, and a lot of some of the time you don't actually have a clear reason for what occurred, right, I think probably the majority of time you don't. Yeah, yeah, yeah, unless you get some extra testing or whatever, Like, you're not necessarily gonna know what happened that resulted in this loss. But people are always asking why, And there's all these wives sales about what, um, you know, what you could have done or didn't do, donate that spicy thing makes don't lift that case of water is in your miscare, Like, there's all these messages that come around that. So it makes you feel again, how we're socialized is that I must have caused this in some way because I should have been able to do this, and the fact that I wasn't or I'm not able to, or I lost this pregnancy or whatever indicates that then I must be I must have done something to make that happen. And it's disordered thinking, but it's also you feel responsible, you know. And I think you bring up a good point in day about you know, like how society kind of grooms us to believe that if you have these parts, that this is what your body should be doing. Um. And I'm curious to know if there are any like cultural kind of nuance that you want to add to the conversation just related to black women, right, Like, does that take the conversation even in a different direction because of some of the cultural pieces of being black women. Absolutely, I mean if you even I mean goodness, we have been as black women. We have been mothering and raising everyone forever, you know what I mean. Like, so that's kind of, um, it's ingrained in us from the from the womb almost. It's ingrained in us in the way that we socialize our female body children, you know, like we we socialize them to do things that are more along the lines of homemaking and um, mothering and parenting and things like that. So there's again there's all these messages around this is what we do. We're about family, We're about creating life. We're about taking care of little people and raising them up. So I think that we we we get that, um, we get that in generalised women, but we definitely get that from a cultural perspective. UM. And we get more questions sometimes about why we don't have kids if we are older, or if we haven't if we're in a relationship and we haven't created children or whatever. We get a lot of that that line of questioning like, well, what's what's going on? Then people start with the other questions that are offensive, is heck, you know, are you are you a lesbian? Are you this? Are you that? Or you know? Whatever? That is not asked from actually a place of curiosity, it's acts from a place of shame. Right, So what kinds of strategies or things do you do with your clients who are struggling, maybe with a miscarriage or a steal birth? Um? And and actually, let's back up, because are there some differences like the healing process if it's a miscarriage versus a loss later in pregnancy. UM, I mean there there's differences in the sense that frankly, of what you might have going out of the experience. So if you have an early term miscarriage, then you're not gonna necessarily have ashes or a funeral or you know, things like that. So the tangible tangibility of what you might have is um can be different, right, So you might be able to do more things with a person who lost a child or children later on in their pregnancy. UM. Like you can do cremation, jewelry, you can have a memorial service or a funeral, you can um, you know, visit grave sites and things like that that you're not gonna necessarily be able to do if if you had a miscarriage at eight weeks or ten weeks or something like that. UM. But in terms of the overall like healing process and and care and the work that you do, it's not, um, it's not entirely different given the time that you lost your your little one. So you can do everything from ultrasound pictures two UM, to visiting a grave site or having a balloon release, which is not that great for the environment, but you know, it happens, um doing a balloon release or a lantern. You can do cremation jewelry. You can do memorial tattoos, which is really really popular. You can also do walks that are during perinatal Lost Month or Infant Lost Month, which is in October, so it's called one of them. In particular, it's called the Walk to Remember, But it's basically, you know, a walk. Look at any other walk like the March of Dimes or whatever that is done to raise money for awareness around perinatal loss. But basically, at seven pm across the world, everyone likes a candle for their lost little one or someone that they know who lost a child. So basically it creates a continuous wave of light for twenty four hours because it's done around the world. So little things like that you can do to help memorialize and honor your little one and and engage in rituals to remember them, like maybe you want to remember their birthday, or maybe you want to remember the day that you found out that you were pregnant. You want to name them if you haven't named them, giving your little one a name is really important. In saying that out loud is really important, and having people use that name when they address your child is really important as well. It sounds like rituals would be a part of your work, like helping your clients maybe develop some kinds of rituals to memorialize and remember in those kinds of things. What kinds of things might you do specifically around some of the guilt or some of the anxiety that might pop up after a miscarriage. Yeah, reality testing, um, reality testing is really important, so you know, asking is there evidence of this thing? So if you say that you know, I'm a horrible person, my body is dysfunctional or malfunctioning or whatever, which is something that I've heard, you know, is how much evidence do you have to support that? And you know, if you just have this one thing that happened, even though it was a huge thing. But if this is one thing that happens, then you can't necessarily make a blanket statement about something. So I do a lot of that kind of reframing and um reality testing. Is there evidence of support that this thing is going on in your life? Um? And consistent evidence again, not just like one thing. Um. Also just allowing space for people to say what they feel right, because you can't. Everyone wants to fix everything, and it's really it's not easy as a clinician or even as a friend or whatever. It's to always hold space for someone who is hurting because you don't want them to be hurting. You want them to feel better. You want to see what you can do to make it better. UM. But sometimes, especially in circumstances like this, you just can't. You can't change what happened. It happened, right, So but I can sit here with you in this space. I can acknowledge that that's how you're feeling about it, and that your feelings are valid, and UM, you know I'm gonna help you work through those feelings because it might not necessarily be helpful for you to stay in that place for a long time. But sometimes people just need to get that out because nobody lets them say it, right, Like nobody lets them be UM in that that space. People always want to rush them to feeling better, and it's it's a process, and there's no time limit on your grief, like it's gonna it'll move. You'll move through it when you're able to move through it. So allowing space doing some you know, is there evidence of this thing that is happening or is it just this one instance that came up. Also self care, you know, self care is very very very very important. Being kind to yourself is also part of self care obviously, but actually like using kind words and kind language towards yourself, So saying things that are disparaging about your body and um, about your abilities or whatever, in the long run, that does a number on your self esteem and your self worth. So doing a lot of reframing work and self care work and positive affirmation work where we can is definitely something I also do in session. And I think another thing that likely comes up is UM probably some trepidation and anxiety about like even trying to get pregnant again. That's something that you see with your clients. Absolutely, people are terrified. They're terrified because you've had now this horrible experience, right, and then you're also like, so for some people it's extremely painful. For some people maybe not as much. Some people it's simply it's not simply, but for some people it's just blood. For other people, they've gone through a whole birth experience where maybe they needed an epidural, maybe they needed for steps, maybe they had some kind of traumatic birth situation. Um and so the trauma of the loss is there, but then also the trauma of that birth experience. And in some instances, some of these hospitals in places they send you home. They'll say, okay, well just go home and wait until you start to miscarry, which is horrifying, right, Like, how like that's ter They told they told me that, they said you can go home if you want, And I was like, oh no, I'm not. I'm not going home, Like I'm terrified to do that and be experiencing that on my own. Um. So, yeah, people have had this horrifying thing happened. This very traumatic event, maybe multiple traumas that have happened. The trauma of finding out that you're gonna lose the pregnancy or the baby's heart stop, or you had a placental abruption or you're going into labor too soon or whatever, like you had that that informational trauma. Then you've had the physical trauma of whatever is happen, and then you have the actual loss, like Okay, now this thing is, this period of my life is over. So people are terrified, like it's it's absolutely like it can absolutely be a post traumatic stress type of situation where anything that comes up that is related to that event is going to trigger you and can cause all kinds of things grief, birst, anxiety, um, grief versus just kind of like out of the blue. Sometimes there's a cause for there's a trigger like something happened and then you just burst out in the tears. And sometimes it's not. You could be just kind of walking down the street and then all of a sudden you're flooded with emotions and you break down. That is very really common in people who have experienced peranatal loss. So yeah, all these things can can show up at any given time. And then unlike some other traumatic situations that where someone might develop something like post traumatic stress disorder, they they may not have the exact experience again, right, so they it might be certain things that trigger a person feeling a stress response. In a normal situation dealing with pardonato loss, you're literally doing the same things that you just did, right, You're literally going to the same maybe the same doctor. And even if you're not going to the same doctor, you're doing the same type of things. Your feet are still in the stirrups, you're still getting your checks, you're still getting ultrasound pictures, you're still getting blood work, you're still so you have all these constant environmental and physical triggers that make it really hard for you to to even say, yeah, let me go down that road again, exactly exactly. It's horrifying for folks. It's horrifying for folks. And then sometimes they're really weighing out what what wighs more, what's more important to me, me trying to achieve this goal of being a parent, or like my sanity, because I'm tripping right now, like trying to go to this doctor, I'm tripping going past this hospital where I know I gave birth and where I had to leave my my my kids or whatever like that. That's horrifying. So people definitely have some trouble um making the decision to to try again and to continue again, and also as disappointment, like you had this thing and maybe you've maybe you've done a lot of work. A lot of people there's a lot of people who need assistance with fertility who do assistant reproductive technologies a r T. Like there's a lot of people who need a little help in that area. So if you've done all of this stuff where you feel like you've done all the right things, You've seen the right doctors, you have the right blood work, you may have maybe you change your diet, maybe you started working out more, maybe you decrease your stress level, whatever. You try to do all these things to prepare your body for this experience and then came crashing down. That's like, hella disappointing, and do I want to experience that level of disappointment again. And and on top of that, the recognition that and a lot of instances people people barely make it out of that. A lot of relationships fail. Question like what is the impact on you know, like relationships exactly, a lot of relationships fail as a result of a child dying. And that's even for you know, later in life. I'm not even talking about perinatal loss, but just in general, like the loss of a child, A lot of relationships don't survive that because you have well I'll come back to that. There's there's a lot of things around that. But um, and also like individually, you may not like you may have been at a place where you didn't want to continue living, and that may have been the lowest point that you've ever had in your life. Right, and like I'm terrified to even go back there because what if, you know, God forbid this happens again? Then what? Right? Yeah, so what kinds of things could you possibly do? I mean, and you've already said right, like even as therapist, you know, no matter your level of skill or whatever, like, some stuff is just really rough and your only job is to really be able to sit with a client through some of this. Um, But what kinds of strategies are things might you be able to do? Too? You know? So let's say somebody says this was awful, but I know in my heart that I really want to be a parent, So I want to get to a place where I can't try again. UM, what kinds of things might you be able to do with them to kind of work through the anxiety of like doctor's business and all of this stuff to help them get in a better place to be able to try again. UM, A few things, So naming it right, like actually saying I'm scared, Like it's okay for me to say that, for people to say, like I'm I am nervous, as how about going back to disappointment or trying this thing again, So putting words to the feelings so that they're not just kind of bottled up or boiling up and you and festering and then you know, creating other problems down the line with stress and and indigestion and whatever other things can come up from holding things in. So actually like using your words and saying this is this is really scary for me. UM, taking a support person with you. Try as often as you can to like bring bring your partner two appointments, Bring a friend, bring a parent or um, you know, just someone that you feel very loved and supported by, bring them with you to the appointment so that you're not doing it alone, and sometimes that's challenging because you know when appointments are or how often you may need to go, especially if you're doing fertility treatments. But as often as you can, try not to be in the spaces by yourself. UM. Also thinking literally, which I think I mentioned a little bit earlier, but about what is kind of what's in your area of control, like what can soil, really being very concrete about what you can control and what you can't. Ultimately, none of us can control the outcome of a pregnancy. We don't know whether it's gonna stay or it's gonna not, like you don't know. But what you can control is making sure that you're getting two appointments, making sure you're doing the right lietary things that you need to do, UM just for health for yourself and for your child. UM. Making sure that you have access to whatever support lines are available. Some some doctors offices actually have or even migwiffery services have UM like almost like a crisis call line where you can call and just ask a quick question or be seen very quickly, so like if you just need if you're having some anxiety or something and you are feeling like I don't know, it's too long until my next ultrasound appointment or whatever. You can go in and get a quick ultrasound like immediately. So finding out what those what those services are that your particular physician offers is also really helpful because again that's like something that you can control. So then you know that you have the supportive services in place. Thinking about what what areas you may um sometimes you can actually use the negative thoughts and the guilty thoughts that you were having afore to inform what you do moving forward. Right, So if if I felt that I had that something was going wrong or whatever, and maybe I called the doctor and maybe they dismissed me, well then you know that moving forward, you might be a little bit more adamant, right, Like you will say like I'm not no, you will not dismiss me. I need to come in immediately. And even if you come in and they're like, oh my god, she's back again, back and back again, and everything's fine whatever, but you know you went, you know what I mean? Like, So just thinking about what is in your looks of control too to address and to support and to help reduce some anxiety. Also, self care of course is important recognizing where some of your UM, some of your responses are coming from. Like there, it's trauma related. So seek support. Support groups, their support groups for people who are pregnant with their rainbow babies, which rainbow is just the baby that you have after the baby that you lost. There's plenty of support groups that are out there for free for that type of service. Finding out what supports exist through your physicians office and UM, going to therapy, listening to podcasts, you know, stuff like that that helps to give you some information but also gives you some support and a space for you to talk. Going on some of the forums. There are forums particularly for people who have UM, who's going through fertility issues UM, and they're topics about everything pretty much. So Yeah, And I think that's one of the like beauties and maybe sometimes curses of the Internet, right because I think you can find incredible spaces of support like the baby center boards and all of those are incredible, UM, but I think they can also increase anxiety sometimes, So I do want people to be careful, like, yes, it can be support, but also know your limits when you're kind of participating in the forums. Yes, absolutely, because you will get a lot of information and even just in general being in like as a lost parent or angel parent myself. You know, you I've experienced or heard or read or whatever people's stories and I'm like, oh my god, like you know this, like that didn't happen to me, but it's like wow, there's so many things that can happen. And then of course that also can raise your anxiety, so you know, instead of you know, I think, use it for what it's worth. Like you said, you know when to such your limits and know when to you know, take a break and consult with your actual physician about your situation, not everything else that could possibly be great. That's a great point. Yeah, And when you mentioned the whole thing of like using your negative thoughts from the previous times to kind of inform future decisions, it made me think about like all the research and um stuff that we probably already knew what was going on, but now their numbers to support our experiences. UM in terms of you know, like black women not being listened to by their doctors, you know, sometimes having to be more forceful and assertive and saying, you know, like I know that this is going on, this is my body. I want to be checked out kind of thing. So I think that adds to like some of the cultural since we were talking about earlier to the Yeah. Absolutely, and have those conversations upfront when you go see if you go to the same doctor that you were seeing when you were pregnant before, or if you choose someone new, be sure to have that consultation and say like, hey, this is what happened before, and this is what I did not appreciate. So I'm looking for a practitioner or someone who's gonna be a little more responsive. I mean I I changed doctors and I had to say that to them, Like I was like, okay, listen, here's the deal about what occurred. This is not what I want. And that's how I found out about the kind of the emergency um center where you can get extra ultrasounds in between your appointments if you need to check on things or whatever. Um so yeah, advocate for yourself. Yeah. So I do want to go back to the relationship piece that we touched on a little bit, because I do think that will be important, um like just the experience or the impact that this kind of experience has on a couple or partnership. Yeah. So loss is hard, man, I mean, loss is hard for for everyone, but and lass is different for everyone, So everyone has a different response to this kind of trauma. The person who was pregnant has the physical body trauma response and of course the grief and loss around that, and and they may manifest that in a variety of ways. People who have a uterus usually are a little bit more um emotional and that they may cry more, they may go to more places of depression UM and anxiety UM and sometimes some irritability as well. But those are kind of like the typical things that show up in response to laws. But if you are in a heterosexual relationship, though, sometimes the male partner does not UM emote in the same way UM. And so there's sometimes this discrepancy where people are like, he doesn't care. It didn't affect him as much as it affected me. Um, He's just focused on work, or on hanging out with his friends, or on whatever else. Besides whatever. The emotional piece is that the that the female partner is experiencing UM. So sometimes well a lot of times at least to a lot of fights, and in my experience, UM, it's a lot of like you don't love the baby as much as I love them, You didn't miss them. You don't miss them as much as I miss them. You don't you don't really care, or you just want to replace, you want you wanted me to just get pregnant again, like right away, and I'm still dealing with the grief and loss around that. So there's this kind of comparison and you know, who loves the baby more kind of thing, which just breeds a lot more fights and a lot more lack of communication and misunderstandings and things like that. Um. Also, the losses so can be so challenging that sometimes people just don't talk about it period, right, Like they don't really want to address it. So they're either going on about their day as though it didn't really happen, or maybe they are really emotional and having like emotional experiences, but they're not actually communicating about like, man, like this just happened to us, Like are you okay? Are you okay? Like what do you what do you need? How can we help? Um? Trying to find a sense of normalcy after a loss is really challenging. And the fact is like people try and get back to normal quote unquote, but you you got a new normal now, like it's not. Your life is not gonna look how it looked before because you've had this traumatic event that has happened. And I will put a caveat that. Everybody doesn't see a miscarriage or a stillborn or a neon nate death as um something traumatic. Actually, I will say more so for a miscarriage. Sometimes people have them and it's not that big a deal for them, just like anything else, you know what I mean. Sometimes people have a trauma response and sometimes people don't, but usually or more often than not, people have some feelings about it when it occurs UM, and it's it's important to acknowledge those feelings and to talk about those feelings and to get some support um from a therapist or a counselor or if you know your spiritual leader that's where you feel like going, like whatever, it's important for you to have that extra level of support and communication about it because you can't brush it under the rug. So when couples decide to either turn on each other because they're angry and don't know what to do with that part of their grief, or they turn away from each other in distress, instead of turning towards each other's support, they turn away and they seek support from outside sources, whether that's their friends or their job or whatever, something to distract them from whatever happens um or or they just become like really really contentious with each other in their home environment. All those things put a significant strain on their really aation ship. So you got the person like that said, that has been pregnant, that has the body trauma and the emotional response to it. And then you as a person who witnessed all of that, right, like the person who was there in the delivery room, the person who was in the bathroom and saw all the blood or saw you in so much pain, the person who loves you and couldn't help you, and like what that brings up for them in terms of their own feelings of guilt and feelings of incompetence. I've heard that so many times, and I feel like I couldn't like I'm incompetent, I couldn't do anything to stop this, So I didn't make a different decision earlier on that maybe would have not had us be in this particular situation. There's often uh, the person who is not pregnant is often in a position of support and they want to support and protect the person who is and when they can't and they see the dismantling that occurs as a result of paranatal loss, they are lost. They don't know what to do and they don't know what to do with the feelings around it because people also, um, I have a one of my black posts earlier on was about this, like, are they are they asking how you are? Are they just asking you about how your partner is? People always do that too. They totally dismissed that this other partner has had an experience too, and though it may look a little different, they were there, they had the experience, They had a loss as well. They may have had these dreams and hopes for their new identity as a parent that now they don't have access to that, and then they are It's disenfranchised in a way because then people aren't even checking on them. They're just like, oh, how so and so doing? I know you got, I'm sorry for your loss. How she doing? And it's like, okay, she's gonna through her stuff, but what about me? Like I'm telling stuff too, So I'm glad you brought that up, because I do think that that is often lost in the conversations, right because so much of the focus is on whoever was actually, you know, pregnant, UM, that we don't often pay attention to the partners experience of the loss as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So it sounds like in addition to individual therapy, sometimes couples therapy would be a good option after a loss, as will. And it's like, I think that is actually what you should be doing because and people may need, you know, extra breakout sessions or maybe want to continue ongoing individual But this happened to the two of you if you're in a couple, It didn't just happen to the person who was pregnant, right, So like, yeah, both should be in here, like you to be in here talking about this and figuring out how you can support each other and move forward, and also allowing space for everyone to have their feelings, because even though some of the feelings come from other people, like people kind of invalidating the partner's experience, sometimes that also comes from UM. Sometimes it also comes from the partner, like the person who was pregnant, where they are just like, oh, I'm feeling this thing, this is horrible, This happened to me, and they're ignoring that their partner had variance, right, And so you have the process and work through some of that stuff is important. And I think the other thing that people often UM. I know I've had listeners to ask questions about like, Okay, one of my best friends just had a miscarriage and I don't know what to do or I don't know what to say. So what suggestion would you have for like family and friends outside of the partnership. Who wants to offer a supporter to do something to be helpful? Listen? Listen, be willing to hear the story. Um. There's a lot of healing and people telling their story, so there's gotta be people to who are willing to witness your grief is really what it's It's called the term for it UM. So being in a position where you're willing to hear what the person has to say and all their feelings and not being in the space of trying to correct it or provide some saying that you think is helpful that might not be. You know, Like one of the things I've I've heard so many times is UM and I think it means well, And of course the image is sweet. But like when they're like, oh that baby is Jesus needed a baby for his garden, or that baby sitting on Jesus. Laugh until you get it, Like that's that's not helpful. I know you think it is, but it's not because the people, I guarantee you, they prefer that baby to be with them right right, like not picking flowers in the garden in heaven somewhere, you know what I'm saying. Like that's so I think, like being trying, Like there's a reason that we have two ears in one mouth, so like listen more than you speak. It's like really really really important. UM, be willing to be part of rituals if you if you need to, you know, if they if that person asks you to be there to hold their hand while they light their candles or to um release a balloon for them, or to to light a candle during the wave of light or whatever like, be open to receive that um and to participate in that um. Small things like well this is not small, actually it's actually kind of big. But um, make dinner, make dinner for somebody, bring go to the supermarket and bring some groceries over the like the two days after we had our loss, one of our one of my friends, Um, I went to the supermarket and just like came to our house with like ten bags of groceries. And it was extreme, Like it wasn't something that I would have asked for, because people kept saying, do you need anything? Let me know if you need anything, and I had had no words like I don't know what I need, you know, um, But not having to worry about food was an extremely, extremely helpful thing. Do somebody's laundry, come wash some dishes, you know what I mean? Like I don't, I don't know. Say say the child's name right, asked, asked them about them, asked if you're comfortable, and if you don't put yourself in situations where you're not comfortable, But if you are, let them show you pictures if they want to, because that even though it may look strange to you, because people are not used to seeing children who are deceased or very early babies who are born. UM, to them, that's beautiful. And they stare at those pictures all time, probably and they look at them and they want to show people, but they're scared because they don't people to be offended their own people will be grossed out. They don't want people to be you know, offensive UM in their response and in their language, so they hide and they keep that part very separate. But they want to show you most of the time, and they would love for someone to say, do you have pictures? Or tell me about them, or tell me tell me what what their names were, or you know, when's their birthday? So if you can even this is kind of a bigger thing, but in the age of social media you might be able to do it very easily. But UM, try and remember their birthday and just say, hey, I was thinking of you. I know what's on those birthday today? You know they that's that's important. UM. Holding space, holding space being part of rituals, being a support person, offer to to do something that helps memorialize their lost one. Right like someone UM donated two trees in honor of our girls we had twins, Like a year ago, someone had two trees planet for them, beautiful, beautiful. Somebody else got us cremation jewelry. So some of our of their ashes are in UM two necklaces that I have in a bracelet that my partner has, showing that you care and that you understand that this was important to the person and that you didn't forget. That's like the biggest thing. People are so worried. Lost parents are so worried that people will forget that this happened to them and they'll forget their little one, and that's terrifying and infuriating, right, So, like, if you can show that you didn't forget and that you care about them and you care about what happened and you care about the story, that's always really helpful. Yeah, lots of suggestions, they are, Jenny, So, what are some of your favorite resources for people who want to read more or learn more or find out where they can get to support. What are some of your favorite resources for that? Sure? So UM in terms of like infertility and UM some laws related to that. I know I use Resolve a lot UM. So resolved dot com is like a forum place and like I said, it's a topic for pretty much anything that you could ever think of. UM. They have spaces there for people to to look things up. UM Postpartum Support International so p s I is the organization, but their website is Postpartum dot net. They have a lot of resources UM for supportive services in whatever community. Like there's a map so you can pick your state, in your city or whatever and see who's available in your area that specializes in this type of thing. UM. The Pregnancy Loss Directory UM that's from the is created by the woman who did UM Return to Zero, which is a film. It's on it's on Netflix if you haven't seen it, but it's about UM. It's about paranatal loss and it's about a still birth and her experience. But anyway, she has a directory of clinicians UM again by state that you can go to. UM. Two people I met this week and or two works that I've seen this this past UM. I was just at a conference for paranatal um mood and anxiety disorders. But one book is called A Dark Secret and it's about women of colors experiences with perinatal mood and anxiety disorders UM. Sometimes related to law, sometimes just related to postpartum stuff. But that's really helpful UM written by a woman of color. So great book. UM, check that out. UM. There's a journal I also got that it's called Recovery State of Mind and that UM. That is a journal also done by a woman of color, that is is sponsored by a project that deals with paranatal loss for women called Shades Are Blue. UM. The this is a book that is not done by people by a person of color, but I found it really helpful in working with people around grief and laws. There's a book called on Grief and Grieving and it's UM It's by the author David Kessler, but UM it really goes through grief and grieving in the inner world of grief and the outer world of grief, and it just really kind of helps you get a better handle understanding on on what's happening for you in terms of any kind of loss really, but it's obviously applicable to paranatal loss as well. UM, so really helpful. UM. I had the Black Angel Mom blog and I also have a closed Facebook support group called Black Angel Moms. You can access that by clicking on the Facebook icon on the blog. You'll take you right to the group and you have to answer some questions in order to get in. But that's a group that's exclusively for black moms who have experienced pernato loss. The Paranatal Mental Health Alliance for Women of Color it's a division of p s I to Postponed Support International, but they it's it's all women of color UM support people and professionals who deal with paranortial laws, paranorial mood and anxiety disorders. UM. There'll be a directory coming soon. So just some great great stuff to find support UM in general and then also some support like for us black women. Yeah, and where can we find out more information about you and your practice? Jenny sure? So my personal website is j h J Therapy dot com. So it's just my initials UM. So on their kind of talks about what what I do, and you know, people wanted to contact me regarding working together or coming to see me for session or whatever. That adds all that information there. UM. And then you can also contact me through the Black angel Mom dot com blog. There's a contact me page. But if you're not really sure about whether you want to see someone yet, but you really want to, like, just have some material to read about this stuff, have some things to share with your family and friends, because I tend to do some posts about UM what's helpful and what's not? You know, with some information that you you should know it could be helpful for you in addition to just like process in general feelings. But that's UM that's available as well, so you can just browse and see what your life show some people some stuff or comments or share or whatever. Um So either j h J therapy dot com or Black angel Mom dot com. Either way people can reach me sounds great. Well, Thank you so much for all of this information, Janie. I know it will be really helpful for people. Yes, I am hoping so that is why I did it. It was so great to chat with Jennie. One of the things I love most about the podcast is learning new things from my colleagues. Be sure to check out the books she mentioned as well as her blog. You can find this information in the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session, and make sure to share this episode with two new people in your life or share your takeaways in your i G stories. Make sure to use the hashtag TBG in session. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to visit the therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue this conversation and join a community of other sisters who listen to the podcast, join us over in the thrive tribe at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash tribe, make sure you answer the three questions that are asked to gain entry. Thanks again for joining me this week, and I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take get care, p oftor, p oftor, p hotter, I, oft oftor p OFTTI