Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
Welcome to the Therapy for a Black Girl's Podcasts, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr joy Hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information, visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. And while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session fifty eight of the podcast. I'm excited today to bring you a conversation I had with an amazing therapist in North Carolina all about creating affirming spaces for sisters who identify as g L B t Q. Today I'm joined by Adrian Michelle. Adrian is a licensed marriage and family therapist and queer person of color therapists specializing and working with youth, adults, families, and couples. She received her Marriage and Family Therapy degree with the specialization in sex therapy from Thomas Jefferson University. After pursuing a passion in sex education, where she found the community's representation was and continues to be very limited, thus creating barriers for the community to craft healthy relationships that mirror their myriad of experiences. She strives to continuously advocate for positive representation in all areas of sexual, racial, and gender diversity and inclusion. Adrian and I chatted about the fears that members of the g LBTQ community may have in reaching out for therapy, tips on how to find a therapist who is affirming, the work that still needs to be done in the Black community to be more affirmative, and some common vocabulary we should all know to create more affirmative spaces and relationships. If you learn something new or here's something you want to share during this episode, please make sure to share it on social media using the hashtag tb G in session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Adrian, Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I would love any opportunity to talk about gener and sexuality, but especially with your podcast and especially how many people it's reaching and definitely reaching a lot of queer films, which is what I identify as, so I definitely appreciate the opportunity to be here and talk today. Yeah, so Adrian, if you could just start, maybe like you already threw out some topics that maybe people are confused about, right, And that's what I really want this to be, like an opportunity for people to learn. You know. I think sometimes it can feel like really difficult or hard to ask questions about what you don't know about. But we do want to make sure that we are being inclusive and being sensitive to everybody. Right, So can you tell me, like, what is the difference between sexual orientation and gender presentation? Yeah, definitely. So your sexual orientation, UM, I like to say that your sexual orientation is who do you go to bed with, and your gender identity or presentation is who you go to bed ass Right, So your gender identity is who you are, who you present yourself to be. Um. Your presentation can include things like how you dress, um, how you wear your makeup, how you wear your hair. Um, obviously I feel like anybody could wear makeup and things like happen in our society. It's definitely seen as a feminine characteristic. And so talking through what gender identity means, gender presentation means, and then talking through sexual orientation. It's all very very different things, and so we do get into a lot of conversations with individuals or parents about how seeing it separately can be really really helpful, got it, And so you know, one of the important things. And of course this entire platform is all about like helping black women to really be okay with therapy, and so taking that first step to find a therapist or to call a therapist can often be a very difficult one. And of course if you are a member of the g l B t q I A community, then it may be even more difficult to find somebody who you feel like it's going to be a good fit. Um. So, do you have um any tips for someone who may be contemplating therapy but are afraid of like what the process might look like? Yes, because, um, you know, I feel like therapy has this connotation that is so scary, right and especially with our one of our community. UM very much is like just pray about it and let it go, you know. And it's so helpful to be able to talk with somebody who doesn't have an investment in your life, doesn't have any bias about the decisions that you're making, but could really, you know, make a decision or help you make a decision based on the goals that you suffer yourself and the things that you want for your life. And so when looking for a therapist, but especially in the LGBTQ community, you want to look for somebody who's not only affirming, but has done some work in the community. UM. I find that I connect more with therapists who work with this population or just lgbt Q HI a therapist in general, and especially people of color, from events, from activism events, from going to your local lgbt Q center, UM, and things like that. And so if you want a therapist that's really affirming and understanding of the community, UM, you want to really go through those avenues of talking to people, talking to people at a center, even talking with your lgbt Q friends about who they might be seeing. I find a lot of times that people are really quiet about being in therapy. And UM, I know we're all watching shows like Insecure now, and you know there's a scene in there where she's talking about where her friends that's in therapy and how helpful and beneficial it is, and just talking to your friends simply if you are in therapy, or talking about it or even thinking about it. That is the perfect way to start UM. And then looking for a therapist. You could go on a website very simply, but just checking in those boxes to make sure, hey, does this person you know? Is this person affirming? Because a big fear people have within the community is gosh, I don't want to go to a therapist and they don't know how you know my sexuality or they don't agree with it, right, And so I even find myself as things as simple is going to the kind of colleges, right, my kind of conscious constantly asked me, Hey, do you want birth control? Hey? Are you on birth control? Do you want birth control? All these questions without asking you know, hey, what's your gender identity? Hey what's your partner's gender identity? Do you need birth control? And so just asking those questions, you know, can be really helpful, but specifically finding somebody who wants to ask those questions, and so those fifteen constants for fifteen minute consultations that sometimes people will offer. Take that opportunity to ask the questions that you need to feel comfortable in this space. Have you worked with LGBTQ people before UM? Are you understanding of trans identities. Are you understanding of some of the terms that I might use within my community, what are your thoughts about it? And so making sure that your therapist has that information. But also if your therapist doesn't, it gives them the opportunity to say, hey, you know what, I haven't worked with the community before, I would love to, or haven't worked with the community before, and I'm not sure if i'd be a good fit for you, because again, sometimes that's an option, and you don't want to be with someone who isn't gonna be the best of help for you. Such a good idea, Adrian, And you mentioned something UM that I think sometimes is debated, like when we're in our graduate program to become therapists, like this whole idea of like being a part of the community that you're wanting to serve UM. So you mentioned like finding people who have done like maybe activists work in this space. And so I find that sometimes when you are working with more marginalized groups in therapy, it is important to be showing up in places outside of the therapy office so that people do get a feel for you and so that people know who you are. UM. I find that just working within the community. And I'm originally from New Jersey and Philadelphia and so now living in North Carolina, it's the South, which is completely different from me. And rebuilding that community is something that I really still have to do of going out and showing my face because as not just a queer therapist, but as a black therapist, there aren't very many and so making sure that not only are you being seen, but you're leaving some room in your caseload for the community that you really want to serve. And I find that that is really really important. And so Andrean, what are some of the concerns facing the g l B t q I community that might make them turn to therapy or that they might find therapy helpful for? I mean, I think we often hear like, the only reason you might be coming into therapy is because you need to come out or something like that, which is the cour It's not the truth. So what are what are some of the other issues that may come up for people in this community that that therapy could be really helpful for. Yes, oh my god, I get that so much because people are like, oh, you know, if the gay person or a lesbian or transperson is coming to therapy, they've got to be talking about that, and most often they're actually not. You know, we're working on anxiety depression, and if it's around their identity, it's mostly around family work, right. And so what I do is a lot of family attached the UM family attachment therapy, which helps bring a family back together through psycho education, which is helping them understand. Right. If I have a young African American transwoman in my offic this and I'm working with them to help not only them understand and accept themselves, but to feel comfortable in themselves, I have to also look at working with their family as well, right, and helping them understand UM. Something I say really really often UM. And my mom is such an amazing advocate UM and a supporter of the community. But when she was in high school, the truly in skirts were down to her ankles. And so when I think about that, I know that she really didn't get any type of sex education, let a learn gender education. And that's what I tell the youth and the young adults that I work with all the time is be patient with your parents too, because they haven't gotten this information. And so sometimes it is just a smack in the face for them, and they are not understanding, not wanting to be unsupportive, but just not being understanding. And so there's a lot of family work that goes into it. Something else I talk a lot about is when you're working with this community, you have to think about the seas that they're in. Right. I worked in Philadelphia, where the streets are rainbow and there's a gayborhood, and it's very welcoming in some areas, right in other areas, you think about how affirming the spaces are. Are there lgbt Q centers in this space? Are there places for people to seek help or to be around people who look like you, love like you, and act like you, And that's really important for a community. But the first space that usually pops up, if it's not a center, it's a gay bar, right, And so thinking about substance abuse and how that is really inbredded in the community, because before there's an lgbt Q center, there's definitely a bar to hang out with, and so you're developing these habits of oh, these are the small spaces I can be within my community. But it's also centered around alcohol or substance abuse and things that may not be helpful, and so you're learning these habits that, oh, I'm using this to cope. Being around my community feels good. Alcohol also feels good, and we do a lot of substance abuse work. Um and the rates are really high within the community, But there's also got to be an understanding of it. Right. It's like it didn't just pop out of nowhere. It's because we're not invested in the community in certain ways. UM and I find that something else that uh, people might be coming in with our couples therapy. Right. I work a lot with couples because I am a marriage and family therapist, and for couples who are identifying as queer and trans and non binary, there is really not a blueprint for our relationships and so really understanding the basics of your expectations of your partner, your sexual expectations of your partner. UM. I find that that is a huge part of the conversation as well, and that's what a lot of people are coming to therapy for communication with their family and communication with their partner, understanding their relationship. Um And since the only model that's really out there is this heteronormative way of thinking and way of being in a relationship is breaking through those roles, right, And so I find a lot of people who still identify within our community using these heteronormative ways of thinking and their relationship. And so if it's everything from generals from picking up the check to uh, you know, who's taking the trash out and who's cooking the food and things like that, there's more of a conversation to be had. It doesn't mean that a masculine person or a feminine person needs to do that. And a lot of the times those are not the identities. And so where do we talk or where do we start the conversation about what your relationship looks like? And so that's with friends, that's with family, um And one other thing I do want to mention is that sometimes the family won't be in therapy, they won't be supportive, and they don't want to talk through some of these issues. But my clients still have to have that understanding and to get through the pain and the hurt and the attachment injuries that have occurred. And so something we use a lot is that empty chair method, right where you kind of write a letter or you talk through something as if that person is there who has had such a huge impact in your life. And so family therapy or systemic therapy without the system UM is something that I find really helpful with the community. So, I know that was a mouthful, but there's so many things that might be different that that person is coming to therapy for. Yeah, but also a lot of similarities, right, Like a lot of things that you know, other people who are not a part of the community are coming to therapy for. Also, yeah, yeah, definitely, And so it's like therapists don't have to be scared. It's mostly the same thing, but it might be you know, some different terms in there, but everybody's coming to therapy for issues with family or partners or friends or understanding themselves, and it's really, you know, it's kind of the same work. And so my part of my job is making sure therapists really realized that as well. Yeah, so I'm glad you mentioned the whole issue with family, because I definitely have seen that come up a lot, like in conversations and the Thrived Tribe and just you know, in the responses I get to UM like some of the episodes and people are sending me questions. It does feel like that there are a lot of questions around families not accepting people, or you know, like just a lot of tension in the family because they don't want to allow this person to be who they are. UM. So you've already kind of talked about like maybe using the empty chairs technique in therapy, But do you have other ideas or strategies you could offer people who are struggling in some ways with their family. Yeah, definitely, and so UM, something we have in our community is called chosen family, right, And I know as African Americans, we're so used to having our play cousins and whomever around us, but specifically in our community, we have you know, your game mom or your gay dad or something like that, where you can build your own community and always encourage people who are in this space with their family not being supportive, because I think that UM, from a very young age, a lot of people have realized that they're family is not going to be their main support system and it's not going to be as emotionally supportive as they want. And so you can spend a huge amount of your time worrying and stressing and being really upset with them, or you can fill your life with people who make it worthwhile. And so although you can never replace your birth mother, or you can never replace someone who holds such a significant place in your life, you can't surround yourself with friends and people who love you and support you and even using that time to bring them into therapy to help you understand yourself. UM. Something I do I as UM for people within the community is as your therapist. If you can bring your best friend and or your gay mom and or something like that to talk through some of the issues that you have, because family therapy doesn't always have to be with those that are biologically given to you, because sometimes at the end of the day, you may not have a relationship with them and you may not want a relationship with them, and so really come into peace with that and understanding that we can do as much family work as we want. But if this person is going to be like this and be a disruption in your life, then let's look at some other options, because you don't have to have negativity in your life. And someone who isn't affirming and won't else they won't understand. I won't say uh, doesn't make an effort, but someone who is just willfully not open to understanding you and that's just the unhealthy person in your life. And so I'm treating family that same way, and so building that chosen family is something that is truly, truly important. So something else that you mentioned, Adrian was, you know a lot of the work that you do is related to working with therapists to kind of make sure that they get it. And I think that there is still a great deal of work for us to do as black therapists UM in terms of really checking ourselves to make sure that we are not perpetrating some of these same microaggressions UM in an effort to help you know, the queer and people, the queer and trans people of color who may be coming to us for a therapy. So do you have any ideas about like how we can like internally check ourselves or be you know, making sure that we're checking our colleagues to push, you know, to make sure that we're doing the correct thing and being very sensitive in these spaces. Yes, definitely. So the first thing I will always suggest is doing training open in your mind to help yourself really understand the community and what I say when I leave my trainings UM a lot of times and I've worked with Duke University, I've worked with Jefferson University. I've worked with so many organizations and their counseling departments UM and talking with them about how important training is and to understand. And I'm not asking you to change your views. I'm just asking you to respect the community and understand them in ways that will help them. I mean, we've all taken this oath as healthcare professionals, and so you wanted you no harm and to make sure that you're doing that. And so the first thing would be trainings. Another thing UM that is really important is like a personal bias UM kind of training and activity and I also offer that in my five part series as well. And it is really about looking at your life and how you would respond if your gender was questioned, if your identity was questioned, or even if your identity was taken from you. And so it's about having that real life experience of oh, my gosh, you know, I don't know what would happen without let's say my mom, right, but in the community, somebody might have to move forward without their mom, and getting them to think, wow, you know, if my mom didn't support me, how would my life look different? Depression would look different, anxiety would look different, so many things would be heightened. And so this community is also really plagued with a lot of high diagnoses, you know, like UM, bipolar disorder or even borderline personality disorder for being angry or having these outbursts without really taking an intersectional perspective of their entire life. You know, someone who's angry, what's going on in their life? Oh, their mom isn't supportive, they don't have financial support. You know, their living situation is out of black. Well, of course that person is going to go through a higher level of depression UM. And so something for providers is to UM, I have this worksheet and I like to call it nosy or necessary right to help you figure out what is making you, what's really driving these questions. And some things I would say is when discussing identities, be mindful of the systems of oppression that may affect your client. Right. And so something as simple as going out with friends, which bathroom they're using, UM, how they are presenting that day, will it be UM? Will it be okay? You know? Will violence occur in this moment? And so really recognize the systems of oppression that your client might be going through UM. If you have a client who comes into your office and it's talking about their identity and really questioning it UM or identifying as trams, and don't just bring up all the things that you feel it would be helpful for your client. I have some therapists that are like, oh, yeah, if my client is trans I have a full list to give them surgeries and all of this stuff. And being mindful that every person who identifies a certain way is going to transition or move through their journey differently. And just because you identify as lesbians doesn't mean you need to go out and get a female identified partner right now. Just because you identifies trance doesn't mean you need to lay down how you're going to transition. And being mindful of that UM. When talking about family, I really tell therapists to expire your view of family. And that's what I was talking about earlier. You know, what if what if it's not about their parents or their siblings, What if their conflict or their attachment injuries are wrapped in friendships? Right and being open to see how family and friends are really causing a lot of that UM. Something else again when talking about sexual orientation. You want to forego a heteronormative thinking, right, and so UM. I remember going to a therapist very very early on my partner and I and the therapist said, oh, so you're more of the man, and that was like, ah, you know, I'm just so angry because I was just like, why why keep um perpetuating these views of this heteronormative relationship as two women are sitting in front of you, and so really being mindful of not mentioning or not moving towards that heteronormative thinking. UM. Something that is really helpful too is talking about pronouns. And I think that in the community, you know, we don't talk enough about what that means when you hear a sheet or a heat or a they. And so I find that even if you know, if you want to do something really really interesting, go home to whomever your partner is, right and tell them a story about someone who's female identified, and then tell them a story about somebody's whose male identified. And it could be the same exact story. You get totally different connotations from it. And so you want to ask about pronouns. You want to ask how people UM want to be you know, respected, in the space. And so something I do when I introduced myself to people within the community or clients is I say, Hi, my name is Adrian Michelle. I use she and her pronouns right, And so that doesn't put my client on the spot to share their pronouns. If they want to, they can and that would be great, UM. But it opens up this space for them to know that they can share their pronouns and to open up a conversation about gender that they may not have been expecting. Something also I want to add to that list is I've been talking about relationships. So when you're talking about somebody's parents, you know, just a parent, you know, saying mom or dad, um. I find it's really triggering for some people, even not people in the LGBTQ community. If you know one of your parents have passed away or one of your parents wasn't in your life, it becomes a harder conversation. And so just asking about someone's parents or their siblings kind of opens the door for them to share more about them than you're asking UM. And also when talking about gender expression, discussed with them how they see themselves UM, and been discussing things like hormones or something about body image. Be mindful about why you're asking those questions. I always say this the therapist. You know, are you asking because you feel like it's really gonna help the client or are you asking because you feel like you want to know like it's going to create a fuller story for you. And so just being mindful and being able to check yourself. But again, trainings. But those things that I list there are something that I find really really helpful. So are you being nosy or is it necessary information there? That sounds like an amazing work sheet, Adrian, Maybe we can add that or add a link to that in the show notes if you're wanting to share that, because it does sound like that is a very good conversation for people to have and to be able to check in with themselves. Yeah, definitely, I will definitely go ahead and send that to you. Yeah, So something else that you mentioned, and it sounds like there are a lot of very small things that we can do that actually make a very big impact for our clients, like opening the door to talk about what your pronouns are and just letting them know that that kind of conversation is okay to have in this space. So I do know that you know the terminology and like making sure that we are like using correct phrases and things. It's really important. Again, very small touches that I think can make a very big difference. So can you give us a little like crash course in like what kinds of terminology is appropriate to use and maybe some things that are not appropriate to use? Yes, definitely. UM. So I also will send you something I have which is called the trans umbrella, and it has all different kinds of um just length of that the community uses in terms that can be really helpful. But there are really five terms that will really be beneficial in your practice if you learn them and have a great understanding of them. And those are sis gender, transgender, gender, nonconforming, sis, sexism, and transphobia. Right, and so since gender is when you are um, what I'll say is when you're born. People say biological sex all the time. And biological sex is actually another one of the terms that are really helpful, right, because biological sex makes it seem like the doctor has done some type of biological tests to make sure of your gender. When an actuality, we know that that doesn't happen. So something that we like to say, is a signed male at birth or as signed female at birth. So that would be a map or a fab that your clients are saying, a map or a fab, that's what they're talking about as signed female or as signed male at birth. And that just tells you what society has labeled your biological gender. Something else cis gender, that would mean that you still identify with what you were assigned at birth. So for example, I was assigned female at birth. I identify as female now, so I would be cis gender someone who's transgender. And again that's an umbrella term, but that basically means somebody who does not identify as the gender that they were given at birth. So if I was assigned female at birth and I grow up to learn that I don't identify with that, I don't see myself as female feminine at all, and identify more with male pronouns or identify as not binary, then that would be transgender gender nonconforming. That means that you're not conforming to the gender norms. Right, and so as we see a female is supposed to be dressed a certain way, act a certain way, look a certain way in society. That means that this person is not going to conform towards what is acceptable for female or what is acceptable as male. And that bring me to talking about binary, right, and so the binary is this idea that there are only male and female, when in actuality we believe in more of a spectrum and so um. Something also that's really helpful when talking about that is the gender unicorn because it really separates things in terms of your gender identity, your presentation, your romantic attraction and all of that. And so it's very all encompassing, but gender not conforming again, meaning you're not conforming to either gender. CIS sexism is really important because of transphobia, right, and of gender phobia. The thing is, sis sexism does exist, right. I do have a privilege as being a CIS gender person, and so I'm very mindful too in those spaces that I talked through because I'm a CIS gender person and I don't want to take up too much space. But I do this work constantly for the community and working for about ten years, and so talking about sis sexism is really important because we do have certain privileges that's the one who is transgender does not have, and so that access to jobs, that access to healthcare, UM, finding a therapist, being understood, even young kids going to school and realizing this to sexism there um, and so that's really important. And again transphobia. UM, people are not understanding of transpeople. And I've learned that being in the South. It's a completely different conversation. And so some people are not open to understanding hiring, standing next to, or walking through life with people who identify differently than them, and so realizing and respecting your client when they're sharing with you this oppressive identity. Similarly as you would listen to someone talking about their race and so just being clear about that. Another one that I would say that's important to understand is the term queer. And so as a black person, as an African American person, I have a very sticky relation ship with that word. Being from Jersey and New York, we really didn't use that word and cleer was seen, um, just as more of a derogatory term. But I find that in the South and even more often now, the term queer is used really positively and it can describe your sexual orientation, it can describe your gender identity in terms of saying I'm gender queer, very similar to gender not conforming or gender non binary, right, and so those, uh, those you want to be mindful of. So if your client comes in you don't want to say, hey, you identify it as queer, maybe just ask the terms that they use. And so another term within the community that people use will be cut POC and so that is q T p o C and that's queer trans people of color, right, and so some of your clients might use that term or even just use que pop to describe themselves. And those are really really important, just small terms to use, and of course there are so many, but just for the sake of time, I'll go through that those terms and then um, one more term that is really really important to learn as intersex. And that is a term for people who have a combination of chromosomes, going ads, hormones, um, just inter internal sex organs and generitals that may differ from what you're expecting. And so people say intersex all the time. And of course we know the derogatory term for that used to be hermaphrodite. But in reality, there are more intersex people in this world than there are redheads. And so really thinking through, wow, what does that mean? That means that we have had a lot of people who have been born intersex, but we are still using this binary and being mindful that we might have to change our way of thinking as we learn more of the truth of what's um, what's going on in terms of a gender spectrum. But it's definitely all about understanding. And if you find that your therapist or as a thing because you don't understand something, just ask your client, because they're more than happy to, you know, help explain it. The worst thing you could do is have someone talking to you about these terms or about their identity and you not have a clue about what they're talking about, and UM for them also to have to um have to wonder if you if you understand, and so taking that one down approach is really helpful as well. Yeah, that definitely would be a situation where it would be necessary as opposed to know to ask a question. Yeah, I mean, and I do think you know, you mentioned the importance of training, and I just want to underscore that because I do think, you know, we are always learning more UM and it really is important to kind of make sure that we're kind of getting the latest information so that we are able to kind of assist as many clients as possible. Yeah, and I find that, you know, trainings are hard to come by, even UM I used to work in Philadelphia and so the trainers were pretty much mandatory for a lot of nonprofit organised stations UM and even moving down to North Carolina, UM I started working for this program and developing something that was really geared towards education, but not just in a health care field, but in a corporate field as well, because what you have is a lot of people identifying differently in the workplace and then not being respected, and we know there aren't a lot of laws that are really helpful with that UM. And so I just want to say that the books that I find helpful if you can't find training that is close by or affordable, because again, it can be expensive because it's not mandatory training and it's not something that's typically offered UM in a graduate program. But a book that I always use is trans Bodies, Trans Cells, and it's a resource for the transgender community. But it has a lot of information about mental health resources, about body resources, about depression, about anxiety, about dysphoria as well, and so being sure that you know you have something like that on hand. And for parents there are of books like the Transgender Team or Raising the Transgender Child, or for people who are just understanding their gender, we have the Gender Quest Workbook, and so that's a workbook for like smaller children. But always keep reading and training and understanding and reaching out for supervision, which is also something that we offer. So um, a lot of like hands on deck here to help make sure we're not doing any harm to the community as well. Yeah, that's how You've offered some books that it sounds like maybe helpful for therapists, But do you have books for non therapists that you really enjoyed that you think would be a good resource. Yeah, definitely. UM. So there is a book that's really interesting, UM called Girls Sex one on one and as though it sounds really really binary, I find that it is a very neutral way to talk about sex, to talk about bodies, to talk about yourself, um in terms of um sexuality. Another book that I find helpful, and this is a two part book actually for partners who might be identifying as trans, and one is called Hung in the Middle UM, and the other one is called My husband looks Better in Women's Clothing or in lingerie, and I find that helpful for couples. Again, trans Body trand Selves is really good for individuals, but can also be really good for for therapists. So for clients trans Bodies trans Selves as well, it's a really good book to help them understand themselves. And another plug I would say is YouTube. A lot of people aren't writing that much information about the community and about the intersection of black people and these queer identities or trans identities, and so going on YouTube and researching and really looking at people like take Milan and his wife Kim Could could Trent I believe her name is, and looking at YouTube and looking at people really live in their lives in this way can help you have a better understanding of health. And so I utilize you do as much as possible as well. And even these books, I may make copies for my clients for pages that I feel is helpful for them. But definitely trans Bodies Train Cells for everybody, Okay, I definitely will include all of those in the show notes. So is there any news that you'd like to share, Adrian, any upcoming events are and your trainings that you have, Yeah, definitely on our website um GS diversity dot com. You can see the list of our trainings and opportunities for me to come out and speak with your organization and just to talk through UM some of the the barriers to healthcare and and things like that. So the training dates this year would be we have one in May, one in September, and one in November, and then again we go out and UM if you request to train and we will come out and do that. UM. I also have a website and that's Adrian Michelle Therapy dot com and my Instagram is saying Adrian hell Therapy UM and you can find a lot of information there in terms of upcoming training, by upcoming speaking opportunities UM, and if you would like for me to come out and speak to your organization about gender and sexuality. I definitely love doing that and still half of my time with speaking. Actually it's been really good, very cool. And I will include links to all of your information because I'm sure some people will want to get in touch with you, UM to ask more questions or to schedule you for a training. Yeah, that would be great. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Well, thank you for spending some time with us today. Adrian, I really appreciate it. Yes, of course, thank you for having me. I know I can talk about this first so long and there's so many terms and everything, but I just hope that the audience really leaves with more questions than they had coming and listening to this and continue to reach out and have a better understanding of the community. So thank you so much for having me and giving me the platform to talk about this topic. You're welcome. I'm very grateful that Adrian was able to share her expertise with us today. To check out all the amazing resources she shared, visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session, and please be sure to share your thoughts about the episode with us on social media. You can use the hashtag TBG in session, and you can also tag our accounts. You can find us on Twitter at Therapy for the Number four b Girls, and you can find us on Instagram and Facebook at Therapy for Black Girls. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to visit the therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue this conversation and join a community of other sisters who listen to the podcast. Join us over in the Thrive Tribe at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash tribe. Make sure you answer the three questions that are asked to gain entry. Thank y'all again for joining me this week, and I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take care,