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Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Hart and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist, visit our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. And while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. In today's episode, we'll be chatting about how we can become more vulnerable in multiple areas of our lives. Chastity Chain and Ler joined me for this conversation and shared all kinds of goodies that I knew you will love. Why is it so hard for us to actually be vulnerable? I think a lot of that goes back to the myths in our messaging that we received as it relates to vulnerability. You know, lots of people tend to think that vulnerability is a sign of weakness and that there's a way to do life without being vulnerable. But before we jump into the conversation, I want to show some love to our sponsor for today's episode, natural Sious. Natural Sious is the world's first vegan, high performance hair care line that delivers the results of twelve products and only three. It's designed to reduce time spent on hair care and it's proven to save up to eighty percent of time on wash day. Natural Sious was founded by innovator Gwen Jamir, who is the first and only African American woman to hold a pattern on a natural hair care product. These products are great specifically for busy women with curly and eily hair also known as four sea hair, and they are all natural, their sulfate, parabin mineral oil, petroleum, gluten and cruelty free. 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Chastity Chandler is a licensed Mental health counselor, Master's level certified Addictions professional, internationally certified Alcohol and Drug counselor, Certified Sex Therapists e m d R trained clinician, Certified daring Way Facilitator, qualified supervisor for Mental health Counselors, and a certified Prepare Enriched Facilitator for Dating, marital and pre marital couples, and soon to be licensed Marriage and Family Therapists and qualified supervisor for m f t S. She is clearly doing a lot. Chastity currently has a private practice in Florida called Center for Sexual Health and Wellness LLC, where the primary focus is to create an environment that promotes emotional, physical, mental, and sexual health for all. Chastity and I chatted about what makes it so difficult for us to be vulnerable, how to be more vulnerable when you have no idea where to start vulnerability in the workplace, and what vulnerability might look like in romantic relationships. If you hear something that resonates with you while listening, be sure to share it with us on social media using the hashtag TBG in session, and don't forget to share your takeaways from the episode with us in your I G stories or on Twitter. Here's our conversation. Thanks so much for joining us today's Chastity, Yes, thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm excited because this is a hot topic. So we are going to be talking all about vulnerability. So I want to start with perhaps maybe what is like the biggest question that people have, Why is it so hard for us to actually be vulnerable? I think a lot of that goes back to the myths in our messaging that we received, as it relates to vulnerability. You know, lots of people tend to think that vulnerability is a sign of weakness and that there's a way to do life without being vulnerable. Mm hmmm. And what should we actually believe about vulnerability? Well, to be vulnerable is actually it's a strength. And then to be vulnerable is to be alive. Everything, every decision, every turn we take day in and day out, is a sign of vulnerability. Us getting into our car to go to our destination, we're being vulnerable. Us coming to work and doing what we do as helpers, we have to be vulnerable. Putting ourselves out there for others to see is vulnerable. To breathe basically is to be vulnerable. And let's we're not living right right. So what kinds of things do you think make it difficult for us to be vulnerable, especially like in relationships. Well, I always say that in today's society, we're very quick to get physically naked, and we're not quick to get emotionally naked. And I think people are fearful of being vulnerable in relationships because they don't want to get hurt. Mm hmmmm. And I mean that's understandable. You know. Burnet defines vulnerability as emotional exposure, uncertainty, and risk. And I always say that that's not dating. Marriages are relationships. I don't know what is right. That kind of sums it up. And of course we're talking about Brinde Brown, who if you've been following the podcast for Sometimes, you know we have frequently recommended her books here. You know you mentioned that sometimes we are quick to be physically naked. Why do you think we perceive less of a risk kind of being physically naked as opposed to emostly naked. I think because with the physical piece, for certain people and certain mindsets, it's not that exposure. I mean, like physically we're exposed, possibly, but it's not as much risk. You know, I'm having this encounter with you. Maybe you're my partner, maybe you're not. Maybe you're someone that I want to go further with, Maybe you're not. If I tell you about what I perceived to be my weaknesses, the things that make me feel feeling such a shame and guilt, then you have a piece of me that I possibly wasn't ready to share. Whereas to be giving my physical self to some has nothing to do with emotional connection. And so how do you think we can start to do a better job at that, Because I think there's a responsibility of us kind of making sure we're putting ourselves out there to be vulnerable. But I also think that we have to do a better job of like accepting people's vulnerabilities and getting better at holding that. So how can we do a better job of that? I think a big, huge part of that is being authentic? Burn says, if our vulnerability is the first thing I want to see from you, but the last thing I want to show of myself, we have to ask ourselves are our daily interactions actually authentic? Are we keeping it real with our partners, our perspective partners are in our everyday interactions as far as like interpersonal reactions, you know, are we truly being who we are? You know? Am I comfortable with who I am? Because I first have to be comfortab with me before I can be comfortable enough or vulnerable enough to share that part of me with someone else. Okay, So that's where the work really starts, is kind of being comfortable with ourselves? Or how do we start that work taking an honest look in the mirror? You know? Who are? We always ask that question. A lot of times people cannot answer the question of who they are without telling us what they do or some some token title such as a parent, a wife, a husband, a doctor, a lawyer. Who are you outside of all of that? What are your characteristics? What are your attributes? You know, what are your strengths, what are your weaknesses? I think that it's extremely important any relationship, on any level of relationship, that there's a level of transparency and that there's a level of vulnerability, and also keeping it real with ourselves, because again, how can we lend that to somebody else if we're lying, are being dishonest about who we truly are and what we truly desire ourselves. So, are there any kinds of activities or exercises that you may use with your clients to kind of help them to tap into like who they really are? Absolutely well. I'm actually certified Daring Way facilitator, So I actually use Renee Brown's curriculum with my clients, whether it be individual or group, and it takes them through trust, it takes them through spelling the myths of vulnerability, it takes them through what are your values? Our values truly like the way of what we do, and so if we are not in tune with what our values are and if our life is not in alignment with that, we're gonna be missing that ability to be authentic, if that makes sense. Mm hmmm. So we talked about the fact that the first step was kind of doing some of that work for ourselves, maybe kind of getting in touch with our values, really having a good understanding of who we are. So if you kind of get to a place where you feel like, okay, I kind of get a good feel of who I am, what are then maybe some of the next steps of being more vulnerable in relationships well, I think also knowing who your potential partner is, like not like when you meet them, I know who you are, but like writing that down on paper. You know, we're supposed to manifest who it is that we won't have you ever taken the time to write down the characteristics and qualities that you want to partner? And then I also ask yourself, am I exuding these qualities myself? Because the idea there is what that you would not necessarily be able to recognize that if you're not kind of living in that space that could be. But also I think a lot of times we're wanting something and we don't really know what it is that we want, you know what I'm saying, like, we we want this good man, and we want this good woman, and we want them to have this, this, this, and this, and then when we realize that, have you ever really wrote it down? Do you really know what the characteristics and the expectations of a relationship? You know, have you discussed that do you really want a relationship? Do you want a monogamous relationship? Do you want to open relationship? Have you thought about whether you're even ready for a relationship? How do you determine if you're ready for a relationship? You know? Have you healed from past scars, past wounds. Have you dealt with your own baggage or issues from past relationships so that they don't get brought into this relationship? You know? Have you really taken an honest look at where you are as it relates to being a potential partner in a relationship. Yeah, And I mean, I definitely think that there is a lot of work to do, right, And so I think when people are talking about like wanting to start relationships, they don't always understand like all of that stuff that you just listed and how that really impacts how you show up in the relationship. So I think the other point that you want to consider is you know, of course, when you are being vulnerable in a relationship, that doesn't mean that you are not going to get hurt or that your partner won't ever make mistakes. So how do you balance that, Like, how do you balance like wanting to be vulnerable and transparent with the fact that we're human and mistakes will happen and you might get your feelings hurt sometimes. So we want to connect with our partner, we have to be as I like to say, emotionally naked in order to get to that ultimate place in our real lationships. But let's say you're not ready to get to that ultimate place or some see that has married, some see that as commitment. Let's say you're in a dating phase and you want to get to know this person and you want to be vulnerable. Being vulnerable with that person might be sharing a little bit you know, are what you feel they've earned the right here? You know about your childhood, your upbringing. What are your ideals of how relationship is supposed to go? What is your definition of cheating? These are all things that I ask people that I'm dating because I want to know, you know, what are your expectations in a relationship. Are you a faithful person? You know, tell me the truth? Have you cheated the past partners? What was that about? Are you still doing that? Like? I think that those are all important conversations to navigate both from ourselves and from our partners. I think those hard questions, the questions that make people feel uncomfortable, mean you're asking the right question. So something that I think has been coming up. It feels like in a lot of conversations that I've been having recently is around friendships. We have talked a little bit about like vulnerability and you know, maybe romantic partnerships, but what about in friendships because I keep hearing people saying they have a hard time like opening up to new people in terms of friendships because of maybe betrayals in the past. So what kinds of suggestions make you have for that? And I hate to keep going back to quotes, but one of my favorite, favorite favorite Renee Brown quotes, which is also on my website, is if we share our story with someone who responds with empathy and understanding, shame, cannot exist. And I think we kind of set ourselves up for failure when we begin to share our story or tell about ourselves and a person hasn't earned the right to hear our story. M M. So a lot of what Renee's work talks about and the marvel you are friends and things of that nature is people become your friend and stay your friend based on how they're adding to the relationship. It's kind of like a bank account, right. If I continue to withdraw and I don't deposit, I'm gonna have an overdraft. I'm gonna have a negative accoun out. Our friendships and our relationships are the same. It should be a balance. So a lot of times you will have people who are friends and they're the friend that's always calling the check on the person. They're the friend that's always there to lend support. They're the friend that always will have the other person's back. But when they are in need, is that person there for you? And it's not the big things, it's the small things. It's the text good morning, how are you feeling. I know you were sick yesterday. It's the things that don't take a lot of time, don't take a lot of effort, but it shows that that person really truly is vested in the friendship and they genuinely care about you, not what they can't get from you, not what they can get out of you, but they care about you as a human being. Right. And I know chall Tell you kind of talked about the whole idea of a marble jar when we did the Life After Divorce. But for anybody who has not heard that episode, can you share more about this marble jar that you're talking about? Yes, Tell is actually my business bestie. Yeah, she love is the marvel your friends. Renee talks about how her daughter came and was telling her that she told her friend, uh secret, and then that friend told everybody in school. And then she kind of asked her, well, do you have friends that you normally talked to her that you share these things with that haven't shared, you know, things before, And that's when she realized the person that she told the story too wasn't a marble jour friend. It wasn't the person that's been making those small deposits in her life. It wasn't the person who remembered her grandma and Papaul's name at the game. It wasn't the person who called Berne to check on her when she was sick. It wasn't those people, So she told the story to somebody who she didn't really even trust instead of the people that she did trust. If that makes sense. Yeah, And so that's what you kind of want to be paying attention to in your own life, is who is actually adding to your marble joy and not taking away from it? Yeah? Absolutely? And if we're really truly friends, because we all got the friends, we all know, we all know which friends to tell what to know what I'm saying. So you figure out who a person is, you accept the fact that they are who they are, and you govern yourself accordingly. It doesn't mean that I can't be your friend, but you just won't be one of my marb With your friends, you won't know what's going on in my life, and I won't share important facts and topics with you. Got it? So something else I know that you talk about chastity and that you're developing new things is around like being more transparent and vulnerable in business relationships. And I'm wondering what that looks like, especially when you hear about you know, like the hard time that Black women typically have been a workplace right like that. You don't know who you can trust. There are all kinds of microaggressions. What would this look like in the workplace for black women to be more vulnerable? Again, I still think it goes back to evaluating their relationships. You know, who's being vulnerable with you, Who is depositing, uh, those trust factors, Who is putting forth effort to communicate with you, to have conversations with you. I'm an extrovert, so I'm a little bit different. I know I have a lot of business colleagues that are introverts, and so that's a whole another situation. I can easily, you know, start conversation and make friends or make acquaintances. Some have a real hard time with that. Some have a lot of difficulty with that. Outside of just the trust factor, just building up the energy to go speak to someone. I talked to someone. So if we're talking in the business world, are we're talking in the in the office setting? Just being observant, you know, whose energy seems to be more in line with yours, or whose personality seems to be more in line with who you are and what values and qualities actually line up with your values and your qualities, because again, I do think that opposites can attract, But when you genuinely find someone whom you know, although you guys may be different, you have core values that are the same. In insense, you're saying it is not necessarily for used to be like vulnerable with people who you have not kind of done an assessment with. You're talking really more about building more transparent relationships with people who seem like they are worthy of that well, even minor deposits of vulnerability. I'm not gonna just tell somebody about my life, you know, but if this person seems like they're receptive, you can always test the waters with something small, not something huge, you know, and see how that works. Does that person go back and like that commercial? That's not right now? When Sheila, I think the dude names with Steve, she and Steve broke up, and then you hear the little the animals copping up and telling everybody that Steve and Sheila broke up, and it's all over social media within like two seconds. So we have to be careful what we share. You know, you want to be vulnerable, but there's no vulnerability without boundaries that's not vulnerability. So what does that look like? Then? What would be the goal of establishing the relationship in the workplace. Is it just to have a common denominator, somebody that you could talk to to build a friendship on or are you doing it with ulterior motives? Do you have another agenda in mind? Or is it just genuinely you want to get to know this person. How do you approach this person? How do you let them know, like, Hey, I'm interested in getting to know that you outside of work, because you know, some people don't show up at work the same as they show up at home. For me, I am who I am in all aspects of life. Everywhere that I am. You either love it or hate it, But that's what it is. I've learned that I can't be controlled or consumed with what people are going to think about me. I have to genuinely be who I am, and those who see that, and those who are around that, if they can appreciate that, then they earned the right to hear my story and to be a part of my life. You know, those who are genuinely not in connection are not on the same wavelength or the values and characters or morals don't line up with mine. I'm great with being acquaintances, but those who I become vulnerable with are those who I find some sort of similarities and there to go and aspirationous or what it is that they're actually doing in life. So I know that a big part of Berne's work, and you've already mentioned that a couple of times, even as we've been chatting, is around shame. So can you talk more about like how shame shows up for us and how it makes it difficult for us to be vulnerable. Well, basically, shame is I am bad? Right, There's difference between guilt, shame, humiliation, embarrassment, and a lot of times people mix those up. Shame basically exists when empathy is not there. So I always say, and a part of who I am as a human being is being empathetic. So if you're around somebody who lacks empathy, or somebody who is always talking about discrimination, you know, being homophobic, you know those types of things, a lot of times shame just kind of sits in that. You know, we have to learn to be open to having discussions about things that maybe we don't understand, how we don't like or that don't make sense to us. But I feel like if we can do that and responding empathy, then shame just doesn't exist. And so how does it sometimes show up? Though? Even in our like interpersonal interactions with other people, Well, could be gossiping, uh, perfectionism, Uh, could be harassment, could be bullying, could be teasing, could be comparison. These are always that shame could show up uh in you know, in the workplace. You know. I think it's just really important to know that shame is a universal feeling, you know, and shame really exudes the sense of not being good enough, that messaging of not being good enough. And I think in my work with clients and with professionals, we just here that constantly. That's the take that that's planning in people's heads. And so if we we are automatically non judgmental, non biased, and empathetic, I think it gives people the opportunity to see that I'm not bad, you know, maybe made a mistake and maybe I screwed up, but I'm not a bad person. And then that allows people to feel more open and want to be more vulnerable because they won't feel judged, are ridiculed, so to speak got you. So what are are there any kind of important pieces that you feel like we may have missed in talking about, you know, like how to be really more transparent and vulnerable in our relationships. I think just put in fear aside, you know it relationships, business relationships, personal relationships, romantic relationships, intimate relationships. Those are all things that can be scary. You know, all have decisions that we have to make, but doing it scared, you know, not letting fear overtake us and keeping a stagnant And I do think it's important for people to remember, you know, like fear is natural, Like we all experience fear, but it's really about can you push past the fear to kind of get to the other side. Absolutely, because everything that we truly want in life is going to require us to be vulnerab bool And obviously there's a risk in every move we make that it might not work out because it's a relationship or business deal. You know, it may not work out. But guess what if it doesn't work out, I conduct myself off and I learned from it, and I'll move forward and understand that that was just a part of the process. So what are some of your favorite resources chastity, Like, and I know we've talked a lot about Bernie Brown's Bruce, So where should people start like with her stuff? Like if they have never heard of her and they're like, oh, this sounds good, I want to hear more about this. What book should they start with? Uh? The Gifts of Imperfection start from the beginning. The Gifts have Imperfection has to go to I almost feel like I should be getting some royalties as much as I refecd that book. But The Gifts of Imperfection is an amazing book. You don't count the credits in the back. It's like a hundred and thirty pages. It's an easy read, and it's one of those if you've ever read it, you'll pick it up again because when things start happening in your life, you have to remind yourself this is just a part of the journey, you know, and not let it break you. So from me, that is always, always, always that go to her book. Rising Strong is another one, because we're gonna fall and we're gonna fail. You know, you can't get to success without failing. But it's about falling forward, you know, how do I use this failed experience or this thing that didn't go the way that I wanted it to. How do I use this and overcome it? How do I use this and come out on the other side? As you were talking about joy and so rising strong would be my next suggestion. And if we're talking about leadership, oh Man Dare the Lead is amazing. That's the latest book, So that's definitely what I would recommend for that. Okay, and any other resources far as relationships, um my go toos are always Dr Gary Chapman, really big on his stuff and the Five Love Languages. If we're talking about business, Brian Tracy is one of my favorites. And where can we find you, Chatity? What is your website as well as any social media handles you want to share? Okay, my practice website is www dot Center for Sexual Health and Wellness dot com. You can find me on social media. I am at chat for Change on Instagram and Twitter on Facebook. I have a professional fan page. It is Chastity Chandler, Elemates, c m C A, p C ST great And of course we will include all of that in the show notes so people can find you really easily. Thank you so much for chatting with us Today's chast Today, I really appreciate it. Thank you. I'm so thankful Chastity was able to share her expertise with us today. To find out more information about her practice and to check out the resources that she shared, visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot Com slash session, and don't forget to show some support for our sponsor for this episode, Natural Licious, the world's first vegan high performance hair care line that delivers the results of twelve products and only three. You can find the products in over twelve hundred Sally stores nationwide or online at save time on washday dot com. Remember that if you're searching for a therapist in your area, check out the directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory, and make sure to visit our online store at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Shop, where you can find our guided affirmation track, break up journal, and your Therapy for Black Girl sweatshirts, t shirts and mugs. Thank you all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care or