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M K. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y'all, thanks so much for joining me for such an one eleven of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. Today we're digging into co parenting relationships. My line sister, Dr Audrey Tounsil is back to chat all about the things you need to consider to effectively co parent. But first, let's show some love to our spot before for today's episode comes from Natural Sious. 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You can find the Naturalisious products and over twelve d Sally stores nationwide, or you can buy them online at Sally Beauty dot com. Use our exclusive promo code five five five five five five at checkout to save ten off of your purchase. Now let's get back to the episode. As a reminder, if you didn't hear Dr rg Tounseil on her last visit with us. She earned an undergraduate degree in psychology from Xavier University of Louisiana. She went on to complete her master's degree in healthcare administration at two Lane University and a mass is in Doctor degree in clinical psychology at Nova Southeastern University in South Florida. Doctor Tunsel returned to Tennessee in two to become the director of Psychology at Western Mental Health Institute. Shortly after, she began her career with Shelby County Jails as the director of Mental Health in twenty eleven, overseeing mental health services provided to be incarcerated throughout Memphis, Tennessee. Inspired by the obvious lack of psychological resources, doctor Tunsel established Kaelic Psychological Services to meet the needs of the community and to continue educating an attempt to reduce the stigma of mental illness. Doctor Tunsel and I chatted about the different possibilities for co parenting relationships, some of the main concerns that get in the way of being able to co parent, how therapy can be helpful in developing a healthy co parenting relationship, and the importance of making sure you're clear in your communication with your children about what the co parenting relationship will look like. If you hear something while listening that really resonates with you. Please share with us on social media using the hashtag tv G in session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for being back with us today, Dr Counsel. Thank you for in fining me. Yes, I'm very happy to have you back. So, you know, people have not listened and they definitely need to go back and listen to your episode that was all about how social media impacts our mental health. We are still getting comments and emails about that episode, so yeah, so definitely that's want to check out if you haven't. But we want to talk today about co parenting. And you know, we've seen more in the news about people and what they're co parenting relationships look like. So I really wanted to dig into this. You know, it was also requested by people because this is sometimes a very difficult thing for people to navigate. Once a relationship as ended and children are involved, you know, it can become difficult. So I want to first start by hearing, like what kinds of different types of co parenting arrangements can people try? Like what are even the options for cool parenting? Okay, well, just self disclosure. I haven't been a co parent for seven years, and I would say we've had a very successful co parenting relationship. And I think we've gone through a lot of different stages and a lot of different styles of co parent and finally found the one that works for us and our son. So when we talk about the different types of co parents and relationships, there are typically three common types. The first one is the high conflict co parent and style, and usually this is one that is high an emotions. Of course, the less a favorable one. The communication is usually often done through court systems, lawyers, family members, and when the co parents have to interact it can become very toxic. And so research is shown like this is the co parent and style where you see mostly of high depression, some learning disabilities can have a poor ability to resolve conflict. So the next one is the parents who use a parallel coping stiles. So parallel means that they have very minimal contact. So this is I'm in my house, you're in your house. We agree to exchange our child, but there's very little communication on how the child is raised. There's no personal exchanges, almost like a business arrangement, and effects on the chower a similar to the ones of the high conflict comparing in style, and we've talked about earlier that the last one is one of a collaborative co parent and style, and that's the one that's kind of been in the media lately about, you know, with Will Smith, j The Pinkett, with bes Alicia Keys. This is a type of parents style where there is a collaboration and things are talked through and there is a very open type of communication between the parents to anyone else who's involved. And this is the type of parents that will re see the more positive effects on a child. The child is less anxious, less depressed, they are engaged in social activities, they know how to resolve conflicts easily, and their communistication styles are more productive. Got you, Okay, So I think that that's great information for us to know. And I'm sure you know people are thinking, like, of course, ideally you would want to have this collaborative parenting style, but depending on whatever the situation was that ended the relationship, you know, like there could be lots of reasons why you might not immediately be able to get to this collaborative police right, So what are some of the things you think, you know that you kind of want to think about it. What kind of work do you want to be doing to maybe move towards where you could be in a more collaborative place of co parenting. Yeah. One, you have to always make sure that you compartmentalize your partner's ability to be a parent is their ability to be a partner in the relationship, So once the relationship is resolved, you have to deal with that separately from their ability to be a parent. So really compartmentalizing to a certain extent your emotions about how the relationship ended and really focusing on the child, because now at this point in the relationship, the goal is to raise a healthy child and not to kind of rehash certain things about the relationship. But simultaneously you probably need to resolve those issues, whether that be in therapy, doing some self reflection, and sometimes I've known couples to comparing and go to therapy together, and so that's always upponents, But there has to be some separation between the ending of the intimate relationship and the beginning of a co parents in relationship so that it can be productive and healthy for the child. Yeah, and I want to hear a little bit more about like what compartmentalizing you know looks like because of course, when you're dealing with something like a breakup or a divorce or you know, something has happened, a lot of that bleeds into the rest of your life, right, and so what would it even look like to compartmentalize that so that you can of course focus on, you know, the parenting piece. Okay, compartmentalizing is really being able to separate your personal emotions about the breakup and how you want to co parent moving forward. So that means that you will have to make a conscious effort to separate your partner in an intimate situation and what works or didn't work from their ability to be a co parent. So basically really resolving or trying to resolve your feelings about them and their involvement in the relationship and what that will look like with them just being apparent. I advise my clients, um most of my clients to go on the State website and print out their States co parent and plan. And what that plan does is just lays out basically everything that will involve off your co parent and situation, and that will be how many days you know each parent will have parent time, who get the child on holidays, for all of those things are included on that parent plan. I advise that we do that before emotions get involved. And when that's done and you want to change after the breakup, then there's a question, am I doing this out of the best interests of my child? Or am I doing this because I'm having some emotional response because of breakup? But if the plan is already established and laid out, there is no question as to were we're focusing on the best care for our child. And so that's really what compartmentalizing looks like, is you're dealing with your emotions separate and apart from what it looks like for you to be a co parent in in a situation where you're no longer with the other parent in a relationship. God to you, indri Town. So does every state have this like on their website. I'm not sure if every state has one, but there are templates stuff how to navigate that conversation of developing what the co parent and relationship will look like moving forward. Okay, so even if your state doesn't have a formal one, you can just google co parenting templates and it will give you an idea of what kinds of kinds of topics. Okay, there's there are tons of templates out there online. Okay, okay, So you mentioned in town so also that some co parents will go to therapy to figure out how to negotiate this. Can you talk a little bit more about like what that might look like to work with the therapist to effectively co parents. Absolutely, so. Um. Usually when I'm working with co parents, I make sure that we have a clear objective of therapy, so the therapy is not for for the goal of therapy is not to reconcile the relationship or for the parents to get back together. If we're there just for co parenting. So I highly recommend to not muddy the water that there'll be a decision made early on to stop all intimacy, because that makes the co parents and relationship very confusing. Of course, we kind of get into some things about their feelings about how the relationship ended. Some sometimes they're the other parents wants to feel that they are heard or that their feelings are validated, and so we try as much as we can to resolve some of those lingering emotional issues. But for the most part, we work on communication and setting goals for what positive co parents and will look like as we transition from an intimate relationship to strictly a co parents and relationship. Now it will be completely up to the parents if they want to reconcile their relationship at the end of therapy. But for me, that's not the goal if we're only there just to improve the co parents and relationship. God, and I love what you said about making sure that that is clear from the front end, because of course there would be lots of confusion if one part of the things we're coming in to try to like figure out how we're gonna get back together, and the other person understands that we are really just figuring out how to parent together. Absolutely, and that's one of the first questions that I that I asked when they arrived, is what are your views on while you're here? And I asked them individuals just to make sure that we're all on the same page. And you know, one parent is um not thinking that they're there for couple therapy, while the other just strictly I'm here to be a better co parent. So that's something that we addressed early on in the session, just to make sure that we're all on the same page and there's no confusion moving forward? Got it? Got it? So what are some of the topics where you find co parents get stuck? Like, what are some of the things that kind of keep people having difficulty kind of moving forward in their co parenting relationships. To be honest with you, the number one issue that I see is unforgiveness and hurt about how the relationship ended and feeling that they were not heard or their feelings have been or just generally they've been violated it. So to resolve those feelings, I think it's best to resolve them individually before we start to work on a co parents and relationships because usually there's one parent who is more upset than the other, and so that's kind of the person or the parent that we want to target first so that we can resolve some of those emotional hurts that they have so that we can move forward in a positive co parent relationship. Again, the number one issue that I see is unresolved hurt. And I'm gonna say this all cases, but generally the mother has an unrealistic expectation of what the relationship should be once they have a child. And I think it goes back to when we were little girls that we had. We see, you know, we play with Ken and Barbie, and they have a car and they you know, they have a house. But sometimes every relationship doesn't end that way, and so to almost have the mother and and sometimes the farthest well, but generally is most moms never see themselves as single moms or having to raise a ailes in a situation where they co parent. So it's really difficult for some people to accept the reality that the image that they have about what their life should be is not the reality of what's going on now. And so just having to resolve their conflict about their image of being a parent or being in a relationship with the father of their child and the reality that there will be in a co parent relationship is something that that I address often in therapy. So those are the most common things that I encounter in coparent a situation. Okay, got you. Of course, you know, a mom and dad is kind of most commonly what we hear in terms of co parenting situation after a relationship ends. But of course we know families can look lots of different ways, so cooparient could also be you know, partners of the same sex who you know, have ended a relationship, they created their families through other means besides just a man and a woman. Um, So, so are there are things that you think we need to pay attention to related to that. I would imagine some of it is the same, but there probably are some unique differences. Now, yeah, really will use the same tactic because, um, everyone has some feelings about the ending of a relationship. It doesn't matter if you know your heterosexual couple or the same sex couple. You still go through the same grief of a relationship, having unresolved feelings about a relationship, and then learning to transition into co parent and so a lot of the things that are pretty much the same, especially when they have you know, move beyond you know, UM societal to expectations of quote unquote a typical UM co parent and relationship looks like with man versus woman when it becomes the same sex relationships. So it's really pretty much, um, the same trends and the same things that we will talk about in a heterosexual couple. Got you, Okay? So I am curious to hear because I know another hot button topic becomes when um, one of the parents starts dating again, right, Yes, it grows a whole new dynamic into the situation. So what kinds of things, um, what kinds of conversations maybe should you be having or how do you even negotiate the whole topic of dating again when you're co parenting m I really think that once we've removed ourselves from that very tense emotional stage of co parent and we're able to communicate. I think the reality is that when you found your your partner attract if there's a likelihood that other people will also in life, those on and everyone wants to be in a relationship, So one accepting the reality that there that your partner or your ex partner will or may move on, I think is key, but also communicating what that will look like for the both of you. I can tell you just from my experience, just having to have a conversation about what that would look like for us, meaning that you know, we probably won't go to dinner as much as we do now, or we probably won't you know, take family photos so often now. But just respecting the boundaries of the new partner I think is really important, and to know what that will look like for the child. Just going ahead and having that proactive conversation with your partner and what their wishes will be is paramount to moving past the difficult conversations of what it will look like when you add another co parent into that um and just listening to the other co parent. Everyone does not want the same thing. There are some situations where they don't want to meet the new partners um, but it's really up to the co parent and that parents being able to communicate what their wishes it needs are and have them respected by everyone. So I think that's really important. But secondly, also communicating with the child as to what it means to add another comparent to the city situation and making sure that they understand that this new relationship does not eliminate the relationship be established co parents and relationship that's already ongoing. But this is just another person that's entering the situation that also has to respect the boundaries that have been set between the co parents. And what are your suggestions I can counsel for when you even introduce a new person to your child, Like, do you have thoughts about that? Our recommendations just my personal opinion. I am against parents introducing children to every partner that they need that can lead to some confusion as to what relationships look like moving forward for that child, but also just wanting to protect the child from a lot of different energies, a lot of different people, their their beliefs and their experiences that I mean, you bring that into your child's like when you bring it into yours. So I think for me, you know, I recommend and for myself, if you know that there is um, this is a very serious relationship. UM. And you've already said if this person, you know about this person, you've you've met each other's families, and you're talking about the next step in life together as a couple. I think then we start to slowly integrate introducing the children to your partner. Again, that takes time, and you know, and it will take a lot of explaining to the child that this partner is not going to replace your parents. This is just who mommy or daddy are choosing to have an intimate relationship with. Got you and you already kind of mentioned earlier about you know, the situation that Will and Jada and Sherry and Swiss Beads and Alicia Keys and Mashanda like they seem to have at least what they're sharing kind of going a step even beyond like collaborative co parenting, where like it's you know, everybody is together and we're gonna be keation together and all of that kind of thing. Do you think that that is what couples or co parents should be striving to achieve or is that just another way that the co parenting relationship can look. I think that's just another way that they can look. I don't think that that is for everyone, nor does everyone want that type of relationship. So again, it's really up to the partners as to what they want their relationship to look like. This is a very individualized choice, and I admire their relationship, but I'm not sure that everyone would be able to maintain or even thrive in that type of situation. And if you hear their stories, they will tell you that it wasn't always that way. It sounds like they started off in a high conflict on co parent and situation and they had to navigate through their emotions for them to get to a place where they are now. Again, it's not instantaneous, but it requires a lot of attention to your own personal emotions, reflection, working together through you know, some issues that have been unresolved. But most importantly, I think that you know, the key to their situations is they always keep the children first, UM thriving those situations and you know some may not, but that works well for them, and you just have to choose what situations works best for you. I really appreciate you sharing that because I think sometimes you can have an internal sense of shame or other people try to shame you for maybe not having these idealistic ideas or idealistic pictures of what a co parenting relationship should be. And I think it's okay, like you said, to have the relationship look like whatever works for your family. Correct, correct, and and and one thing, you know, you have to make sure that you're not listening to either family, friends, or even media social media as to what works best for you, you know, so you know, again those are all opinions, but they're not in the situation and they may not have the same emotional investment that you have to make sure that your child is thriving. So just making sure that if you would like to receive some feedback, that's that's awesome, but making sure that you don't internalize that UM in a way that makes you feel like you should be making a different decision than what you know you've already established as a good co parent a situation for yourself. Yeah, and I do think that that brings up an interesting conversation about how to get your community, like your families and friends, Your family members and friends kind of brought into the idea of whatever you and your parents your comparent decide the relationship will look like. Are the special considerations or things people should keep in mind about, like how to get the rest of the community on board. Um? Yeah, I think you have to set boundaries. As for me, you know, I make it very clear when people give me their opinions, I say thank you, but that's not what I choose to do in this situation. So one, you have to know exactly what you want and how you it to look and communicate that to your partner. Again, this is a co parent and situation, not a village situation. Um, So just making sure that you and your co parent are on the same page before other people's opinions and feedback start to kind of taint that because again they're not privy to the information that has been disseminated between you and your co parents, and and most of the time people have, you know, good intentions, but they're not you. So setting those boundaries are pretty important. Um and so when someone starts to kind of comment on your situation, you being very assertive and saying, you know, thank you, but this is kind of how we choose to parent our child. So are there particular resources that you found really helpful for co parents to either read or videos to wich like, what kinds of things that you think could be helpful for somebody navigating a co parent in situation. There's a blog called a Single Mother Survival Guide that I find and really helpful, some very helpful tips on that blog. But as far as books, I really really recommend a book called co Parenting The Black Girl's Guide to co Parenting by Azetta Joel. I think this book is very well written. It's a very short read, but it gets down to the point. Also, we don't want to leave out the parents who or the co parent in relationships where we have one partner who wants to have a positive co parent relationship and then the other partner who isn't invested that invested in creating that type of relationship, and some of those situations do exist um. And so there is a book called co Parenting with the Toxic X that I find somewhat helpful to help the parents who really want to create a positive relationship to navigate and really take control of how to manage a co parent and relationship when the other parent is not as involved or invested. And that book, again is co Parenting with the Toxic X by Amy Baker and Paul find I think that's a very helpful books that we can use in those particular situations. So let's touch you on that a little bit too, because yeah, I don't want us to leave that out. So that's a great resource. But I also want to hear from you what kinds of suggestions you would have of me, because, like we said, we have kind of spent primarily this time talking about if both people are on board, right, but what if the other partner is not on boards and maybe you are really excited about it and really want to make it work and then the other person is not, So what kinds of suggestions would you have there? One don't get frustrated because the other co parent doesn't want the relationship that you want. And I think that's key because I'm sure, we all want to create a positive experience for our child, but there are some co parents who aren't ready for that. So for you to kind of lead by example. And I know it's always hard for us when we are the more mature one to always take the high road, but again, this is not about us, This is about the child, and so making sure we don't get involved in that trap of kind of confusion and chaos that some co parents create by not wanting to have a positive relationship, but again staying focused on what can I do in this situation to maintain a positive relationship with my child, And again that would probably go back to one of those co parent and styles where you have a parallel co parenting situation where you parent the child on your time and how you fit as long as a healthy and it's not effusive, and I will co parent, you know, the way that I choose on my time. And so maybe having a separate coparentess situation may be the best for you, just to save your sanity and making sure that you don't become emotional at every exchange or every communication that you have with the co parent. Yeah, because I would imagine that that still comes down on the conflict. Right, So even though ideally you may want a situation where both of you are involved in making decisions together in that kind of thing, if that can happen, then, like you said, just making sure that both people are parenting in a way that's not abusive but not harmful maybe better than trying to like work towards getting it where you're on the same page. Absolutely, it goes back to accepting the reality of the situation that you're in. You know, you may want something different, but the reality is, you know, you may be co parent with someone who doesn't want the same coparenting style as you, and that's okay, But how do you make that work with you know, making sure that your child is happy? Perfect? So where can our listeners find you? Again? Dr Town, So what's your website as well as your social media handles? Okay, so my website is www dot k lix and it's c A L y X psychological dot com. And I finally have an Instagram. So if the Instagram Happle is c A L y X Psychological and it's the same on Facebook Psychological Perfect And of course all of that will be in this show notes, so people can find you easily. Well, thank you so much for chatting with us to get into doctor town so I appreciate it. Thank you for inviting me again. I'm so grateful Dr Townson was able to join us again today. To learn more about her or her practice, visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot Com slash Session one eleven, and don't forget to share your takeaways with us either on Twitter or in your I G stories using the hashtag tv G in session. Don't forget to show some support for our sponsor for this episode, natural Licious. Natural Sious is the world's first vegan, high performance hair care line that delivers the results of twelve products and only three. You can find the products and over twelve hundred Sally stores nationwide, and you can also get ten percent off your purchase online by going to Sally Beauty dot com and using the promo code five five five five five five at checkout. Next week, I'm hosting the inaugural Black Girl Clinician Collective or b g c C as it's affectionately known Retreat. Myself and thirty other black women therapists will be heading to South Carolina to learn strategies to take our practices to the next level and to build and strengthen our relationships with one another. I'm super excited as this is my first major event and I wanted to make sure to thank our generous sponsors for making it possible. Our first sponsor is Kelly and Miranda of zenny Me. Kelly and Miranda provide private practice training and coaching by two therapists for heartfelt business owners who care. You can find out more about them in their services at zenny me dot com. Our next sponsor is the Gottman Institute. 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Their mission is no less to revolutionize the way people learn and earn online by giving them the tools they need to turn their expertise into a sustainable business that impacts both them and their audience. You can learn more about their amazing platform at think ifik dot com and of course, all of the information will be shared in our show notes, So if you want to learn more about the sponsors for the retreat, you'll be able to find all of that at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session one eleven. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, don't forget to check out our directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And to continue this conversation with other sisters who listen to the podcast, come on over and join us in the Thrive Tribe, which is the Facebook community for our podcast. You can request to join at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash tribe and be sure to answer the three questions that are asked to gain entry. Thank you all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care. Um um what