Session 60: Colorism & Texturism

Published Jun 6, 2018, 7:00 AM
Unpacking the issues in our community related to skin color and hair texture can be difficult, but it's necessary. Today's episode features my conversation with Dr. Donna Oriowo, LICSW, M.Ed. Dr. Donna and I discussed the definitions of colorism and texturism, ideas about having more effective conversations about these issues, how these issues impact our mental health as Black women, and strategies for working through some of these concerns.

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Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcasts, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr joy Hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information, visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. And while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session sixty of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcasts. The conversation I'm bringing to you today is one that is often very difficult to have in our community, but so very necessary to They were going to be talking about colorism and texturism and how they impact our mental health. But this conversation I'm joined by Dr Donna Orio Wo. Doctor Donna is an international speaker, sex and relationship educator, and therapists located in the Washington, D C. Metro area. She went to undergrad at the Morgan State University, earning her bachelors in psychology before moving to Widener University, where she earned her pH d, M s W and m e d. In Human Sexuality, social work, and education, respectively. She is the owner and lead therapist of a nod Right, whose mission it is to help others reclaim their sexuality, identity, and self love by being their most wise, free, and authentic selves. In addressing intersectionality, culture, and race in both educational and therapeutic settings with a focus on developing healthy Black female sexuality, Dr Donna and I discussed the definitions of colorism and texturism, ideas about how to have more effective conversations about these topics, how these issues impact our mental health as black women, and strategies for working through some of these concerns. If you hear something that you think others should know, be sure to share it on social media using the hashtag tb G. In session, here's our conversation. Thanks so much for joining us today, Donna, thank you for having me so. I'm very excited you were able to join us for the podcast today because I think the topics will be discussing today are very important for us as black women to continue having conversations about um things related to both skin color and hair texture. So can you talk to us a little bit about how issues related to colorism and texturism impact black women's health or mental health. Funnily enough, that actually impacts both the mental health and the physical health um black women. You know, like the stories are out and abound that you know, black women, we don't exercise the fear of you know, sweating out oye hair and all that other stuff. But that mental health piece is it really impacts self esteem, sexual self esteem, and really just general self efficacy. So just the whole self esteem spectrum. It impacts our relationships and it repacts it impacts them on so many different levels. And as I know that a lot of people say, oh, well, you know it's only hair, but hair and skin definitely have a huge impact. It even impacts us financially. You know, they say the lighter you are with the you know, better hair, so to speak, that you're more likely to get chosen for areas jobs and be paid more because they say that white people feel a little bit more comfortable with someone who is lighter skinned with better hair than someone that is darker skinned with you know, my type of kinky hair. Yeah, I mean, and we continue to see like these studies and things come out. They talk about like the differences in terms of like paygrades and privileges that people have depending on their skin color or hair texture. Yeah, and you know as a sex and relationship therapist here in the Washington, d C. Area, that those impacts on relationships, That's what I end up saying the most. So you're more likely to get in and stay in an unhealthy relationship when you have lower esteem about yourself. You're willing to settle for less, and you ignore the warning signs of a bad relationship. And it hurts harder when you get out of those relationships because you know here you are already maybe feeling at maybe a five out of your self esteem. You get into this relationship where they basically say you're lucky to have them, and so you continue to settle for basic humanity things as opposed to a partner who is your equal and willing to go above and beyond. So you you're in this relationship and when they say, oh no, I'm done, it hurts more because it's like, oh, man, I wasn't worth anything before and the person that saw some worth in me left me, so I must be worth less than what I thought, mm hmmm, So that's that's really kind of what you're seeing in your practice in relation to maybe some of them, like colorism stuff is like the impact that it has had on relationships. Yes, definitely a relationship with self, relationship with family and friends, and especially romantic relationships. Those are the three major ones that I end up um having more conversations about. Mm hmm. Okay, And what do you think we can do Donna as a community to begin or continue to change the conversation around um like light skin and pretty hair so to speak, being the only things that are deemed attractive. What you're what you said is so true. We definitely started UM. So he'sa raised and secure shows us a different spectrum of beauty. The black Panther, of course, showed a completely different spectrum of beauty. Um. But some of that is what we are going to do for ourselves as individuals as well as how we're going to relate to one another. So number one, you know, like this judgment of someone's character based on their hair has got to stop, because what was often is happening is someone is seeing someone with light skin and this you know, the silkier hair, and they're saying, oh, well, they're stuck up. I'm like, well, you don't know them, you haven't had a conversation with them. You're already assuming a character trait based on what you see. Just like there's an assumption that if you are dark skinned with kinky hair that somehow you are lazy and not willing to take pride in your appearance. So that judgment of character based on our hair and our skin tone, that's part of what needs to sort of stop. We need to, you know, take stock of why we are feeling and thinking this way and figure out whether or not this thought even originated with us, because what I'm finding is that for most people is not what they think first, it's what someone else thought that they have adapted as their own. M m m mmm. And where are those messages primarily coming from? Oh, it's this is so pervasive in American society that I'm not even sure. You know. It's one of those like we'll started fresh the chicken or the eggs sort of conversations. So you know, of course we have to talk about slavery, and to deny slaveries impact on texturism and colorism is to deny a huge part of black culture here in America. So they already were grading us based on our skin tone and our hair texture. Then so those that were closer and looks to them, you know, through rape and all this all that other stuff that was going on, they they're like, oh, well, I like this child. I'll take better care of this child. So lighter skin slaves with good hair got better privileges. Now that's not to say that it didn't suck all around, because it did. It's still slavery, but more likely to be freed, more likely to be taught to read and write, and more likely to have other privileges like oh, you get the bathe more often, you get to wash your hair, your hair more often, like yeah you. But so, like, we have to understand the impact that slavery has had. And I know that a lot of people want to say, but slavery was so long ago, And to that, I say, let's go back to what they already said in The Lion King when Rafiki hit symbol on the head, he said, it's in the past, but it's still hurt. And I want us to remember that just because something happened in the past doesn't mean it doesn't still hurt. That definitely is a great example of good ways to kind of illustrate, you know, things from the past do still impact us in lots of different ways. And something else I thought about downing while you were talking, um, it also seems like there is this tension around you know, like in many ways, it definitely does feel like hair is political. But I think for a lot of people, it's just hair, right, like you know, And so it feels like there is a lot kind of place upon our hair about whether we decide to wear it natural or straight, or do we want to wear a perm or a weave or a wig. And I think a lot of people just enjoy like doing different things, like it's just like an accessory or just something fun to do different. But there are all these judgments and like assumptions made based on how a black woman decides to wear her hair. That is so true. And what's what's funny about that is that because some people have politicized our hair, it is still going to be political. It is still going to be an act of radicalism to wear your hair naturally, I mean, and I know it doesn't make any sense, but the idea, I mean, the idea that the way you that you are going to wear your hair, the way it grows out of your head as being radical seems completely ridiculous. But the beauty standard and norm has been blue eyes like skin, or white skin with long blonde hair. So every single deviation you are from that, you are considered to be someone that is less beautiful in society standards and eurocentric beauty ideal stand dirds. So if you are dark skin with kinky hair, brown eyes, shapely, then you are are you are very several standard deviations are away from what they have already said is beautiful. So when you when someone comes up to you and they're like, hey, you're pretty, it's it's almost like an accusation and a statement made in surprise that how could you this dark skinned person with this type of hair be considered beautiful. UM. One example that I often use in UM what I'm doing talks or conferences is Lupeta because people look at her and they're like, I don't understand how she you're You know, it turns into that you're pretty to be dark skinned, and it's because you're supposed to be seen as some type of an anomaly that you cannot have both dark skin and nappy hair and be pretty. So a dark skinned woman, for example, with good hair, she would be seen as someone that has her hair has saved her from the darkness of her skin. A light skinned woman with kinkier hair, her light skin has saved her from her nappier hair. And then of course the epitome that you can reach for in blackness would be to be light skinned with good hair. And we sort of have created this hierarchy that we've maintained that is still based on Eurocentric standards, which really doesn't serve anybody. Everybody's feelings get hurt on that standard. All in the name of the cis gender hetero normative male gaze, because that's what we're when we're talking about the male gate. And I say male gaze, and I know that everyone is not straight. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that most corporations, large and small, are ran by white men, and they have dictated what the standard of beauty is and at the same time dictate the dress code and the way that they how you're going to look for their brand. So now it's almost become a requirement to have a certain type of hair and to present yourself in a certain way just so that you can have a job. Yeah, Donna, And it does definitely feel like there is a lot to unpack there, and you know, it does feel like there have has been a lot of movement, especially towards like younger children, about making sure that they are a variety of like shapes and colors and hair textures and children's books and dolls, and you know, it does feel like that they were doing more in terms of that, though, I think we could definitely be doing a lot more, um. But I'm wondering, like, you know, for clients that you see, you know, probably eighteen and older, like what kinds of strategies are you using with them to help them unpack some of this and to really heal some of the trauma that has likely um come about related to either hair texture or skin color. I can talk about that all day, but where I end up starting number one is some people won't even acknowledge that that is the problem. So first, you know, like I'm I'm trying to unpack about why they're there, and they don't want to bring it up in that way because they don't want to seem like they're hating on themselves, but they're hating on themselves. So I try to, number one, help them to even see that this is an issue that they have been having and that they like to talk around that issue. So what I like to do is really get people from a place that talking around it to talking about it specifically and being real about it and knowing and also talking about the origins of where this came from, because unfortunately, a lot of us got these hurts from our parents, from our mothers, from our grandmothers, and we don't want to talk badly about them because they did so much for us, which and and you know, I'm not denying what they have done for us or the great things that they have instilled within us, but that doesn't mean that we cannot also acknowledge the bad with the good. So being able to sort of separate the things that we didn't like from the things that we did like about growing up and how those messages continue to show themselves in our everyday life, So trying to make it, trying to make sure that we are bringing that up and that we're actually talking about that, and really also examining the difference between how they think about themselves and how they think other people think about them, sort of getting to that intrinsic versus extrinsic value and you know, getting those baseline assessments. I need to understand where they are and where they're trying to go and their reasoning for getting there. It also seems like this would be like a great conversation. And I don't know if you've in this, Donna like had like either an outreach presentation where there was an opportunity for like group discussion or just like a therapy group or some kind of like group related to these kinds of issues. I think would like provide a lot of different information and allow people to have exchanges with one another that could be really healthy. Actually, I was recently invited to the University of California, Riverside, and that was one of the talks that I gave. We were exploring sexuality through hair texture and colorism, and I mean it was a great talk. It was. I was there early February or so, and just being able to have that conversation with you know, those students there. They they didn't even think about some of the things that I was saying and the way that I was saying. They was just like Oh wow. I never thought about it in this way, and I never thought about how how deeply ingrained all these things go, and how I have to do a lot more work on my own self as well as making sure I'm uplifting my friends to make sure that we can get out of this, because that's what we are saying. We're definitely saying that people are wanting to get out of it and are actively moving in that direction, which is wonderful. Um. You know the people that are coming up now, we're you know, we're having kids, and we're telling our children, you should love yourself as you are. You're beautiful as you are. And then that's when people are sort of taking stock and it's like, oh, I'm going to tell my kids that they should love themselves as they are. But here I am doing X, Y and Z, So do I love myself as I am? And that's sort of what's bringing up those conversations a little bit more, getting people to dig deeper. Yeah, I mean, because you know what you said. I think a lot of this does operate very subconsciously, right, Like we just sometimes don't even realize like how many images and how media in a lot of ways, Um, just continue to perpetuate this idea that this is what is acceptable so exactly, and a lot of people will say all day it's a preference, just like is it your preference or preference that has been given to you that you have now adapted? Yeah. Yeah, And it is interesting too to think about, um, you know, like how maybe the process of like having a child of your own that has like some kind of issues or feelings about their hair or skin color. How that then also forces you to have to do some work sometimes because you don't realize, like how you may be passing on some of those maybe negative ideas or thoughts related to skin color and hair to your children. And it's so easy to do it, especially when you're not really actively examining it in that way. And that's the thing that I'm most excited about. I'm excited that I'm getting these clients who are They're coming to me and they're saying, I think I have, you know, self esteem issues, and I'm just like, well, leus, let's talk about that. Let's work on those things, and let's not trivialize the importance of hair and black community. It's not called our crowning glory for nothing. M Yeah, I mean, Dada, you definitely are bringing on bringing in all of these different elements that are such an important part of the conversation but that we don't typically think about together. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard to think about feelings. It brings up, it brings up ugly past because when I did um my dissertation, I specifically studied natural textured hair and black women and how it impacts their sexuality and so many things that came up in the results. I mean, we're even talking about people admitting to sort of scratching up their skin, you know, getting ashy so that they could feel whider, wearing t shirts on their hair when they were younger so they could pretend they had long hair, and even what you know, like some people are talking about it now and they're saying, oh, is the weeds and wig movement um also just another way of people trying to gain the length so that they can have some level of acceptance with their hair texture. And you know that's a whole different kind of worms. But you know, just trying to examine all these various portions of it, because just because you straighten your hair doesn't mean you have self hate or that you don't love your black, your black self or your black nest, because some people do get beyond. And part of what I do in session and in group settings is trying to get people to examine where they actually are by sort of going through this UM. I forgot what I call it, like the hair identity development model. UM created that bad boy from a dissertation, but sort of you. I use that as a way to help people understand where they are with their relationship that they have to their hair, and how that relationship impacts their sexuality, their self view, and how they interact with people overall. Because you know that hair envy, that texture envy, the skin tone envy, and feeling some type of way about someone that you don't know. Usually it's coming from a place of what you already have going on with you. It can't be about somebody else if you don't know them. But we're always bringing forth our own baggage. So I said it once before, So it's people have. Everyone has baggage, is whether or not they have a steamer trunk or they have a small purse. So what tips might you have for listeners who might be struggling with some of these issues? Any like places for them to start. I would say first the first step is always to me acknowledgement, stop holding onto that pain and to your silence. It's way past time to speak out. Talk to your mother, your grandmother, family, your romant to partner, talk to the people that are in your life that you love but have hurt you in some way, shape or form. And also that means you have to talk to yourself. You have to acknowledge the way you also hurt you. And just having that first step of acknowledgement is I mean really it does wonders in and of itself, acknowledgement and then thinking of your what next, what do I want to do next? How do I want to proceed with this? And of course making sure that we're not trivializing it, that we're not saying that you know, hair, hair texture, and skin tone are frivolous, because they're not. Just like we wouldn't say that racism is frivolous, we should not be saying that colorism and texturism, which are derivatives of racism, are frivolous. It doesn't make any sense to say that. So as a community, we need to be able to be you're willing to have this conversation, and that means that I like skin divas have to check themselves and their privilege and listen to our doctor skinned people and vice versa, because everybody is having some level of hurt. It's just that some hurt is more systematic and and sort of follow mimics the way that racism has been mimicked. So it's like, yes, you can hurt a white person's feelings, but that doesn't mean that you you reversed racism them. And it's the same thing with colorism and texturism. Just understanding power and the power dynamics and how those things sort of come together. Those are really gonna help with being able to move forward in a positive direction where we can all heal collectively. Yeah, Danna, you really touched on something that I do think is important for us to talk a little bit more about, because it does feel like whenever I see these conversations, and of course, like online is not necessarily the best place to maybe have some of these conversations, um, but but it does feel like the conversation frequently like goes off the rails when there is like this whole discussion about colorism and of course, you know, even light skinned black people have likely been discriminated against in some ways. But it does feel like there is like this very difficult tension to kind of cut through when then you also hear darker skin sisters saying, yeah, but maybe that's not the issue right now. Yeah. And and the thing is it hasn't even stopped coming up. You would think that, like with the coming of black the Black Panther, I like to believe that everything great came with the Black Panther, but but look at what has already happened. We're already dividing our light skinned brothers and sisters from being a part of Wakanda and saying that they're going to well kinda And that's and that's part of the hurt from that. You know that I hear from our light skinned women, the ones, you know, the light skin with the with the hair texture that is more acceptable. You know, they're seen as not being as black. And then you've got the you know, the darker skin with the kinkier, coilier hair textures, and they're like, oh, well, they're too black. So you have these two complete spectrums and it's just like, oh, well, I don't want to be too black, like I want to be black, but I don't want to be too black, And then that sort of keeps coming up and how we're having these conversations and no one, it seems like no one is really willing to put aside their privilege or their hurt in any given moment to acknowledge the privilege and hurt of others. Yeah, and that's it sounds like what it's really about in like really trying to traverse those conversations is you know, being able to hold onto your opain, but also to be able to make space for other people into here their pain as well, into realize how you embody some privileges that may have in some ways caused pain for somebody else. Mm hmmm. Yeah. And really I do hope that we can get to that point because no one is I know that for me personally, I know, I'm not trying to discount the hurts and pains that you know that light skin and you know, with the specific hair texture people have gone through. No one is trying to say that you're not black, or at least I'm not trying to say that they are not black and that they have not gone through hurts and pains at the hands of racism. What I am saying, though, is that there are levels to this, and that when you are not to the top of that pyramid as far as you know, this beauty hierarchy, it hurts a little bit more, and it hurts a little bit differently, and it hurts a little bit deeply. That's why the Black Panther mattered to so many people. How many brown and dark skinned men did you see in that thing? I mean there were so many, and you know, all this natural hair, all this stuff being shown right there, and they did not they didn't do it the same way that they did say no shade, no tape. But the Nina Simone story where they chose Zoe Saldanna to play Nina Simona and put there basically in black face, and usually that's what sort of happens. They choose these racially ambiguous black women to represent all black women, but at the same time they're hurting the people that are darker skinned with the kinkier hair because they never see themselves represented. And I just want to make sure that we're recognizing that there are levels while being able to, you know, hold our pain, but recognize that someone else still has pain, right, So what are some of your favorite resources around some of these topics down there? I mean people always want to know, like where they can learn more with books and websites and things they can check out. Where are some of your favorite resources? Oh, I'm books on books on books over here. So um, one of my favorite books, um, I feel like it gives a beautiful overview is hair Story by um this Bird and Tharp's. I think they wrote it back in twenties. I mean they have two copies. I know they updated it, so I want to say that one of Um. Then there's this like anthology so to speak, UM called Tender Headed. Um. Mind you I found all these bad boys on Amazon. I can't always find what I'm looking for in the store. Um. And then uh, last name Prince. She wrote The Politics of Black Women's Hair, which is also a pretty great book. And of course, you know my dissertation is a great place to start as well if you really want to read it. This writing, ever, is it somewhere that is accessible, like by a link? Do you have a link for it? You know what, I'm gonna put a link on my website for it perfectly to my website, so people would go ahead and download and read at they're boring. Leisia Perfect will add a link to that in the show nes Then, So any um news that you want to share it down at any like upcoming events or trainings or talks that you have coming up that you want to share with people, Well, I will be in North Carolina that's coming May um at the ship North Carolina Adolescent Sexuality Conference. Um, that's gonna be fun for me. I don't know if it's gonna be fun for other people, but just for me, it's about people are reaching out now and sort of filling up my calendar. So I feel like I'm gonna be in a couple of different places, but I'm also going to be offering a few things of my own. So I definitely have some webinars that I am planning to come out with, some NaSTA classes and some him deal specifically with hair and skin tone and sort of going on that journey of self love. Okay, so do you have an email list where people can sign up to know when those things come out? Of course? How can we how can we find that a nod right dot com with your weight five seconds the pop up box comes up and says stay in the loop. So too, to stay in the loop, and you will be one of the first to know when those things come out. Cool. Then a N N O, d R I, G H T dot com, my first name backwards right dot com? Got it? And any social media handles you want to share in case people want to connect with you that way, A nod right on everything? Okay, not everything. Let me let me be more specifically on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. And I have a periscope and I do not have a snapchat or anything like that. Got it? So Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Yep. Okay, Well, we will include links to all of those in the show notes as well. Okay, perfect, Well, thank you so much for chatting with us today, Donna. Thank you for having me. I love talking about this. Thank you. I'm so grateful to Dr Donna for sharing her expertise with us. Something that wasn't mentioned in the episode is that she's hosting a webinar on June nine this coming Saturday, called sex Talk Parent Edition. It will be all about how to talk with your kids and teens about sex. So if that's something you're interested in, be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session sixty to get the information about how to register and information about all the other resources that she mentioned, And please be sure to share your thoughts with us about the episode on social media. You can use the hashtag tb G in session, and you can also tag our social media accounts. You can find us on Twitter at Therapy for the Number four be Girls, and you can find us on Instagram and Facebook at Therapy for Black Girls. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, make sure to visit the directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue this conversation and join the community of other sisters who listen to the podcast, join us over in the thrive tribe. You can find it at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash tribe. There are three questions that you have to answer before entry, so please make sure that you answer those. I think it's also important for me to make sure that I pay my respects to the family of Kate Spade, who we lost to suicide yesterday. And of course, whenever there is a high profile suicide, there's a lot of discussion around suicide, and you know, there's a lot of energy around prevention. It feels like for a short time, but I do want to make sure that we are continuing to have these conversations. So this week for three for Thursday, which is a time where I am on both Facebook and i G Live um at twelve noon Eastern, we will be talking about suicide. So if you are available and want to be a part of that conversation, then make sure to join me on either Facebook or Instagram Live at twelve noon Eastern this coming Thursday so we can continue to have some very important conversations. Thank you all again so much for joining me this week, and I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care,

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