Session 155: Can Issa & Molly Recover?

Published May 13, 2020, 7:00 AM

The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.

By popular demand, Dr. Donna Oriowo, M.Ed, MSW, CST is back to chat about the latest episode of Insecure. She and I chatted about the continuing tension in Molly and Issa’s relationship, steps you can try to be less defensive when someone calls you out or in, questions to ask yourself about the health of your friendships, and our thoughts about where Molly & Issa go from this point forward.

 

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Phew. It was a lot this week, a whole lot. I was like whoa. Yeah to me. By surprise, I was like, whoa, I'm about the Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for relationship up with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session of the Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. I want you to know that when y'all talk, I listened, several of you send us messages asking for Dr Donna orio Will to come back to do another Insecure debriefing episode, and clearly this week's episode was one that needed discussing. If you've missed our first conversation about this season of Insecure, go back and check out session one of the podcasts, and for those of you who haven't been introduced to Dr Orio Wo, let me tell you a little bit about her. Dr Orio Wi is an author, international speaker, and certified sex and relationship therapist in the Washington, d C. Metro area. She's the owner of a nod Right and specializes in working with black women on issues related to colorism and tech tourism and its impact on mental and sexual health. She's the author of Cocoa Butter and Hair Grease, a self love journey through hair and skin. She and I chatted about the continuing tension and Molly and ESA's relationship steps. You can try to be less defensive when someone calls you out. Are in questions to ask yourself about the health of your friendships and our thoughts about where Molly and Issa go from this point on. We definitely want you to weigh in with your thoughts as well, so be sure to share them with us on social media using the hashtag TBG in session. Here's our conversation. So they definitely gave us a lot. Pew, it was a lot this week, a whole lot. I was like, whoa yeah, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa. Um, I was like, whoa I mean about the So I definitely was taken by surprise also, so I think what happened is well, first of all, like very early in the episode, we realized that the conversation that we saw in the beginning of the season happened even before the blow up. Yeah, I was like, oh, yes, I'll be honest. I was actually relieved because I was like, Okay, this time for them to fix this the season. So that's what you thought was gonna happen. I mean I still think that could happen, Yes, yes, like maybe hopefully. I was like, well, that would have been a horrible season ending. Yeah, just don't funk with Molly no more, Like what is she not coming back to the next season, Like, what's gonna happen? Right, So we see that she's having this conversation with Nathan um presumably you know, after uh certain Molly has you know, said she's not gonna help her try to find a new headliner for the block party. So we don't know necessarily how she and Nathan started talking again, although we did see last episode that he called and said, hey, I heard the block party, is you know coming along? Congratulations kind of thing. So we knew he was kind of, you know, eking back into the picture, but didn't necessarily know that he was gonna show up again and be such a central figure. Obviously, it was like, huh, the original ghost shows up after the other chick ghost. It isn't that something like Condola and this guy in the same at the same day time. Yeah, so, now that you have brought Condola into the conversation, what do we think about that? Honestly, I felt like, what was the purpose of her coming coming to the block party? Yeah? I was like, Okay, so she's here, but she's we don't watch her do anything. It's not that she an't used to have like some real conversation. As a matter of fact, I'm just like, okay, so did you really just come here to be like, yeah, me and Lawrence broke up. Well, I feel like a part of her coming was to try to make sure she was salvaging her professional relationships, right, So it sounds like she was the one who brought Spotify on board and maybe some other people, and so it feels like maybe she was doing some damage control to make sure, you know, like, hey, I was the one who signed you up for this and given right, and given that she doesn't know how so you know, faired after she dropped her, she probably was coming to see like, okay, is everything gonna be good so that I can maintain these professional relationships? True, I mean it was it all happened so fast. I was like, you know what, I almost forgott Yeah. Yeah, So she just pops back up after ghosting Easter. Yeah, so, like you said, kind of a continuation of the ghost I mean, this kind of goes back to our previous conversation from a few episodes ago, just about the importance of have any difficult conversations, even if you don't want to have them. So yeah, so now we've seen that Issa has had to try to manage and scramble to replace her headliner and to kind of get all of this stuff taken care of after Condola just drops out on her, and boy would a scramble. It was just like the whole thing. I mean, it really does those whole season for me is you know, communication, But my partner and I was just just just looking at some of those season one, season two, season three recaps because I'm looking like, well, let me refresh some things, because I do see some comments on the internet that I simply do not agree with m But I was just like, oh my goodness, Like season one, Issa confronted Molly about some of her foolishness. What did she confront her? And see, I should have watched the recap too, what did she confront her? Because I definitely have been seeing conversations around like, well, Issa hasn't been that great of a friend either, and so I been trying to remember, like, well, what has Issa done that has kind of painted her as not a great friend? So did you see some of that in the rehabs? We not actually not what I saw, and you know, the memories that it's pract As far as what I, you know, watched for the other three seasons was mostly that both of them had foolishness with one another, both of them had expectations that were unstated for one another, and that at times that ended up getting in the way of how they wanted to do their friendship. Um, at the end of season you know, I can't even lie and say it was at the end, but in season I think it was one or two. That was when um, when when Issa was still at We got y'all, she confronted Molly like, yeah, what's up with you? You you're talking all while to the people I work with, I mean you trip them. What's up? She asked her. I think looked at that, not avoiding actually wanting to have a conversation ship and then just how that whole conversation was so left because Molly was hurt that Easter said maybe you could benefit from therapy. M So that's when we saw that conversation and uh, you know, and Easta reminded her, like, you know, you the common denominator and all your messed up relationships is you this one? Is this one too thirsty? This wee not thirsty enough, this wee not you not educated the way you need him to be educated, Like the common denominator is useless? What are you gonna do about that? Right? And even then that conversation really only came up because Molly was, you know, deflecting mm hmm. Yeah, we're sady to be confronted on her poor behavior by Issa and instead took it as an opportunity of well, well what about what you do? And I'm just like, you know, that's the type of stuff that we people do. We do that very often when we're not ready to be confronted. We want to throw it back to something else that happened. And I was just like, well, all of these things they collalesque. Like looking back from season one, it makes sense exactly why they're here where they are in season four because I'm just like, I'm astounded at both of them. So, I mean, I know that some people are taking side, they're like, nam, i'll e gont messed up and set it out out. I'm just like, you know what, both of them messed up for real, for real. But even but beyond all that, I'm just like, neither one of them are seeing the growth in the other, so they are still treating each other like season one instead of season four. Mm hmmm. So I want to go back to something you said because I think that this could be helpful to kind of think through a little the idea of when we are challenged by someone, and I think for a lot of people it comes from trying to protect yourself and like your defensiveness gets raised as opposed to you really being able to hear with the other us and said, a lot of a lot of what happens is someone will say, well, I don't like the way that you do x y Z, or it offends me such and such, and then your immediate responses, well, you do ABC as opposed to hearing what the other person said. And so it's not about the fact that you both might not have valid agreements. It's about the fact that now is not the time for you to talk about the thing that you had never put on the table, because now they have called you out on something exactly like we never heard nothing about no toxic women until somebody said that men are toxic. I'm like, Okay, now that we talk about racism, we hear reverse racism. I'm looking like you you had no problem. Your problem is with the fact that you got confronted on your nonsense in the first place, and now is the moment that you choose to have the conversation about the other things, which means that you're not going to be in a space for neither of you are being heard period, because you're choosing now, when someone is confronting you about the thing that is bothering them, to be like, well, you know when you bother me last week Tuesday, you remember when you said you remember, and it's just like, nah, I don't want can't we what can we do instead, because again, I think it is a very kind of like natural thing to go into defending yourself. So what can we do in those moments when maybe we are confronted or someone calls us out, hopefully with love about our stuff. How can we not have that kind of split judgment reaction of defending ourselves and try to actually listen. I know for me what I do, like the second that it bubbles up in me, I throw up the time out. Signed Usually people are really good about trying to call me out or call me in on my stuff while we're face to face or while we can see each other. So I'll call up the time out, and I'm just like, you know what, I'm in a space. I don't know if I'm in a space to really receive it right now. Can we talk about it later? And we will actually make a moment to talk about it later. Otherwise I'm just like I'm going to be silent. I try to warrant them ahead of time, like I hear that you have something to tell me about myself, and I'm gonna be silent. But the differences between me and I would say other people that I'm generally very open to people's feedback, even to a well to a fault, because my partner is just like, yo, it's not every every person's feedback that you gotta say, but when people have feedback for me, Like there was a time where I did a speaking engagement and someone pulled me to the side after Basically she was just like in militant rude. White people are not gonna hire you. And she she was just like, I just want to give you feel you need to hear this feedback. So I gave her space to give me whatever feedback she felt was necessary. Um, but just because someone gives you feedback doesn't mean it belongs to you either. So I took a feedback, and for me, when I take the feedback, I just work on remaining silent, and if I must, I take notes. Let me hear what it is that you have to say. And I know that I'm gonna pay the best attention like I did back when I was in school when I was taking notes, So I will let somebody know, like, Hey, I'm about to take some notes based on what you're saying. Is that cool? I don't want you to feel like I'm not paying attention, So let me let me take these notes and I do that. One of my other friends, you know, she likes to call me out pre she does a pre call out where she texts me first, I got a problem with this thing that you did, and I want to talk to you about it. And I'm like, okay, um, let's talk lovely when we When do you want to talk about it? M hm. So I think that that is Yeah, I agree with you. Like, it's not easy to hear some maybe very difficult information about yourself, but I think the way that it's presented can soften the blow, right, And I think a lot of times what happens is that you don't get this feedback until somebody has become resentful, and that is because likely they have been avoiding having the difficult conversation, right. Like. Meanwhile, I mean, you can also always do a ship sandwich. Here's the thing I like, here's the thing I don't like, here's the thing I like. Now the feedback that you have for them is now sandwiched, and you you soften the blows. Now, Personally, I'm not a fan of the ship sandwich. I like my I like my ship to stand on its own in the corner. I don't want to touch my bread. But I recognize that for some people that the ship sandwich is actually what they need. So like a moment of really great feedback in this episode was when Andrew pointed out to Molly, like, look at all this hard work that he'sa put in to make this happen, Snow wonders she's been absent, much like how you were absent with Memm. I was like, go ahead, man, this is what I call using the opportunity as it presents itself able to say, look at this thing, this thing that we're experiencing right now, this is similar to this other time when this thing happened. Can't you see that? So they're in the space where they're not sensitive about it. You're not sensitive about it, but you're able to have that conversation and really point out the parallels. Now, the sad part is that Molly needed those parallels pointed out because she was so invested and just not really being there at all. M hmm. Yeah, And that's the thing I have been kind of trying to think through, like what actually happened with them this season. So it feels, yeah, it feels like we went from zero to sixty real quick, right, Like, it feels like there wasn't a lot of build up for like how we get to where we got to at the end of this episode. And so but even but as I hear you talk back now about you know, the ways that maybe Issa has you know, tried to call out Molly or have difficult conversations with her in the past, it really does seem like Molly has difficulty hearing things about herself in a way that she really needs to. Yeah, I mean, let's remember that Thanksgiving that episode. Yes, but it does seem like she can do that with Andrew. So I do find that interesting that she's vested in doing it with Andrew because she remember, she was desperate for probably not the right word, but it feels right, so I'm going with it. She was desperate for a relationship. Season one, we saw her day and every time they can hearry they came her way right worthy of her time or not worthy of her time, whether or not she was gonna make it work or not make it work. She was desperate to be in a relationship, so desperate that she would have told East so, and she did tell Easa that she should have just stayed with Lawrence, who sat on the couch for as many years as he did not do not a dang thing. But that's besides the point. The point here is that you know, she wanted a relationship anyway that she could get it, and now that she's got a relationship, she's fighting tooth their nail to make sure that she keeps it, which is great and it's it's great to see that growth, that work, that that spacebook. She's able to listen to what the other person has to say, and yeah, maybe she initially gets defensive, because we all do when somebody calls us out whether or not we like them, And but she's still able to go back and be like, all right, look I was wrong. Can we talk about this thing that happened last night, like like what she did in UM episode four, like going back at the end of the episode talking to Andrew, just like, look, I messed up. I didn't realize how badly, you know, my own stuff was being reflected here. And I could really appreciate that she was willing to have that conversation. Yeah, and so see, for me, this is when I start thinking about, like, Okay, if Molly were one of my clients, now, of course we are watching this on the screen, right, so we have a view that of course we never do as a therapist. But if I knew some of this information, that would be the piece I would want to tap into. Is this transferable skill? Because we see that you are able to have difficult conversations, You're able to hear difficult feedback from Andrew in a way that you cannot with Pisa. Help me understand what you see the difference is here? Uh, she doesn't think Hess on her level. So that's what you think is at the core of this. Yeah, I think that that Molly is in a space where she's used to being the successful friend, the together friend together ish, and she does not see Issa in that same space. She does not see Issa as a person who lives out her dreams or does the work. I mean, let's you know episode one that's gonna be home grown, m and now episode five not home grown, that's tall, full of sponsors and a lot of work that went into it. She did not expect for it to look that because she was surprised. So what do you think that's about? Then? Do you think that she is threatened a buy Issa's success? Like do you feel like, do you think that she thinks like there can't be more than one successful one in the group. I mean, it could be that it could be that it could be that she's feeling insecure herself about her place, her standing, and Issa's life. If Issa glows up, what is her relationship now to Molly? Now? I know that people have said that Issa is a user and that she uses the people around her, and I disagree. I think that number one, to be a user requires the act of participation of the other person. If I'm gonna use you, you have to allow me to use you. So we have to also ask ourselves what is the dynamic of Issa and Molly's relationship? Issa isn't a one down and Molly gets to hear Issa's problems and offer feedback and tell her she's messy and on occasion bail her out. What happens when the person that you're used to um needing something from you because they can't get it together because you know they're messy. What happens when they clean up? Who are you now in relation to that person? Yeah, So it definitely feels like this is speaking to the danger that can happen when your identity becomes wrapped up in being the one that everybody goes to. Yeah yeah, and being like, oh, I'm the successful one, I'm the smart one on this one, I'm that one and the thing that happens every day, right, So it's not like it's not like it's just something that happened on TV the other day. I mean, I remember growing up, I was, you know, one of my best friends. She was always the smart friend and I was not. I was the mouthy friend, but certainly not the smart friend. You know, she's the Ivy League educated, great job, great benefits, great, you know, she's amazing. I was not a smart friend, and I internalized that. So then when we get back together and we're adults, despite the fact that I have a whole pH D, I don't feel like the smart friend in her presence. And that was some of my own ship that I had to work out. That wasn't on her, not her alone. Certainly he was on me because I internalized that, and that means I have been her experience at all. I know how other people treated me based off the relationship that I was in, and the relationship was that she was a smart when and I was not. M hm. So then what does that do? How do you then act in that? In that respect, you can resent the person that feels like they put you back in the position that they know you as. And right now, both of them put each other back in the position of who they knew each other as. And I'm not seeing the growth that changed the work that either one of them have made us far. Molly is more mature in her relationships and Lisa can't see that, is she? Oh, you're saying she is. Now you're saying you're you're seeing that she has he growth in her I love to say, I don't know if we like, because clearly there is no lack of maturity in this relationship. Here, you're saying that we've seen Molly grow and that she is more mature in relationships than she used to be. Yes, got it, got it. We're seeing that she is on occasion, she is definitely willing to go have some humble pie. And that's not the same as though, that she is really willing to invest the same level of humbleness within the context of the relationship with Easta because she sees Easa in a very specific way. I mean, let's be real, I mean, wasn't It was that episode for where Issa is talking to Lawrence outside and East and Molly is making the assumption that Issa is gonna have sex for Lawrence. Right. She she made an assumption about the type of block party that she was gonna put on, about the behavior that she is engaging in. Now she's acting as though EASA in season four is still having Easter season one and two behaviors. They're not being fair to each other, they're not seeing the growth. So I don't remember, and I don't know if they explore this fully in season one. Do we really know the backstory of how Issa and Molly became friends? Uh, they were college friends. They were college friends. So this I think brings up God, okay, got it? Um, this brings up I think another point of the idea of do you continue in friendships just because they have some longevity? Right? Because I think, of course, when you're in college, you know, you're you make friends with the with the people who live next door to you, to the people who are you see in your major classes, like those kinds of things out of convenience, and it feels really okay because that's the space you are in in your life, and sometimes those relationships can transition with us throughout life and grow, and then sometimes they can't, right, And so I wonder if that is a part of what's happening is that they've been friends for so long that it feels like, okay, we just will continue in this friendship. But have they stopped to ask, like, do I really even still like this person? Like is this something that even feels like a good fit exactly? And And the thing is, I'm definitely a person that believes that any relationship you want to keep, you can keep as long as all people involved in that relationship are also invested in keeping it. But to do that, that requires you to grow, to know yourself, to to fall in, but it also requires them to be falling in as well. When one person starts to grow, change and do different things, it can greatly impact everybody else in that friendship situation because now it's like, well, dang, I saw that I grew you, how do I grow with you? Does the other person even have a willingness to do that with you? Are they really are they really willing to rock with you? And sometimes what we do need is a fresh start with people who don't know this history of us and thus can see us for exactly what and who we are in the moment as opposed to what they knew about us back then. Mmmm. That was a word, Anna, That was a word, right, because it does feel like that is a part of what's happening in the relationship is that they cannot see each other for who they might be in the moment. They are so caught up in the idea, in the narrative of who they scripted of one another exactly. I like that who they script who the sc and that I think to me, when you think about it, I think it still feels sad, right, because you don't ever want to necessarily lose relationships that have meant something to you. But sometimes that happens through no fault of your own, right, If it's that I don't know how to let go of this idea who I thought you were, to see who you are. That doesn't feel intentional, That doesn't feel as messy as what I feel like we are seeing play out now. Yeah, I mean, and the main thing here is it it's all we're gonna come back to this, that gonna community make communication. But it does come back to the communication. They aren't. They don't know each other and they think they do. They they're not talking to each other. They're not having the type of in depth conversations. What you're trying to do with your life, What's what's up with you? Tell me about how you're liking a new position, Molly, tell me about how you're trying to build things in your life. East So that I having the conversations in a way and at the same time respecting what the other person is saying. Because let's be clear, everyone in that friend group knew Easta was gonna do this block party, and everyone in the friend group, with the exception of Molly, showed up before the party. M m. I mean we even saw that at the sponsor event earlier this season, right that people were there helping to set up in Molly, you didn't get there until later, yea. And can you imagine the person who is like, Nah, she she's gonna land on me. And that's my role. My role is to be there for Issa because she you know, she a funk up and I'm gonna have to fix it. And now she's not sucking up and she doesn't need you to fix it. And as a matter of fact the other friends and even a new face is coming front and sent her to be of support in a way that I'm not, which is to me, made the whole argument even more ugly because I saw that some people just was like, yeah, it'sa just violated Molly's boundary, and I'm just like, Issa doesn't. I mean, Molly does not own Andrew. It's not a boundary violation. Yeah, we're definitely gonna get into that. The other part that I think, you know, related to your comments about like not being able to see one another as who they are, It does feel like though they are very tied to this idea of our best friend, right, Like you saw them play with that a little bit. This of course, I'm going that's my best friend, right, and so friend just like where's the word? Right? It feels very much something like I can say this on my Instagram caption that we are bfls, right, But what does that even mean now that we are twenty somethings. You know, like that may have been fun when we were eighteen nineteen in college and you just kind of throw that around Kevin lially, but what does that mean now that we are you know, professional women in and kind of growing in our lives. What does that even mean for me to call you my best friend? And you can really think that y'all have been acting as the best friends to one another. Thank you, thank you, because I'm looking like, oh, Molly is Issa's best friend, but Issa is not Molly's best friend. I'm like. Issa basically was like oh really, Like they just see her whole her whole face, said nasense, we like, you know, my best friend. You can't be my best friend. You don't show up for me like the best friend. Yeah, and that es friendially, especially after she just said like, no, I'm not I'm not asking Andrew for this favor for you. But then we see on the next episode like you're calling yourself her best friend. So I was just like, oh, okay, we're best friends. Like I definitely can respect that. You know, Molly said a boundary and was just like, no, I'm I don't feel comfortable asking you know, this relationship is important to me. I want to protect that and I'm not I'm not gonna do it. That piece though, when she was like, you know in that last episode was that I want these parts of my life separate, and it was my partner that pointed it out and said it in so many words, but you know that stuff was like, oh, um, you don't want him involved in what you believe would be Issa's messy stuff. You already believe her to be messy. You already believe that you're not gonna have it together, and you don't want him involved in it. And you don't even know what level of work Issa has been putting, so you just feel like she's been absent from you for no reason because you don't see the block party and something that's important. You don't see it as something that takes time to develop that you know it's gonna require attention and work, and you don't want your relationship to be tainted by Issa's messiness. And I'm just like see the then go that that assumption you have no clue what's going on because you have been absent and if you had been there, you would have you would have known, just like Kelly, just like Tiffany, that yeah, like here's all the work that has actually been put in. They are aware of the work because they've been there, they've been doing like oh, let me talk, let me talk to this person for you, let me hook you up with this person. Well, I don't know nobody, but let me hook you. I can do drinks, I can, I can show up here. I will show up and I will show out for you. And Molly just arrives to partake, begrudgingly, after she has had this conversation with Answer about not even to go. But I think you're right though, and I think when we see after she has After Molly has this conversation with Andrew and he helps her to get a little bit of perspective, like, wow, look how big this thing is, Like can you imagine how much work? And she then tries to go and offer each of the chicken wings. That's my love language. We fix three big style like you ill ma food? We go together? Right? Was a bid? Which was a bid? Right? Again? Did except that? Right? I was like, Okay, I see she looks so apologetic when she had to go and work, right, and see that's the thing though to me, in that moment, it seemed like Molly almost felt as if like, oh man, she gotta go run again, not considering that this is like Issa's job, like this is her time time, this is we're not we're not attending the block party. Like I have a moment, but I'm in charge of the block party, Like, yeah, I give you. I don't know if you noticed, but I'm hosting this, right, this is kind of my thing here, you know, like welcome, I'm glad they're having a good time, and d I P. I don't get to be a v I P. I get to be in run around. That's a different that's a whole different world, right, right, it's very different. But I think in that moment, it felt like to me again was not considering how big of a thing this was, and that Issa was actually the one in charge of the actual black party. Yeah, she forgot just for a moment. I think that she was really ready to talk. And that would have been you know, it would have been great if it wasn't for the fact that Issa was at work. Right, So it still ends up being Molly not recognizing that Issa is doing work and that this work requires time and attention, and that it's not about you in this moment. M h. Those small bids, right, So her offering the wings and then them doing the wobble together, I'm telling you, mus say baby love languages six and seven, food and right, So those made me feel a little hopeful, right. They made me feel like, okay, now I was. I was kind of giving aside because I was like, I hope they're not going to leave this as this is what mends them, right, like you just got to offer some food and bobble together and then we're best friends again. But I was hopeful that Okay, this showed enough of a connection still being there that maybe next episode we will see them finally have the conversation that I see they set us up. This was like one of them Scandal episodes where you hang on to the last two minutes and your whole world is totally crash crash. I was just like, you know what, it was completely uncalled for because I was like, I got in a place where I was relaxed. I was on the right, right right, because I think we all had been kind of building up to like, oh my god, she's finally the block party was gonna happen, you know anything. You know, we saw them connecting a little and I had relaxed. I had kind of you know, like, okay, they're gonna he I literally let out a brush. I didn't even know I was holding it, and when the thing went sideways. I was like, wait, happen? Wait, yes, I legit. I legit tiered up, Donna. I legit heared up because I think I was just so taken off guard by it, so I wasn't expecting it. And the things that they said to one another world so hurt, horrible, Oh my gosh, so hurt. You forgotten you were Actually what's what you do when you're trying to viscerate someone? The words that you use when you are purposefully trying to be hurtful and harmful. And I'm just like, you know what, you can't take back those worlds. So I really don't know where we go from here. I don't know because get to that, right, you can't take them back. Before we wrap it all up with where do we go from here, let's go back to this whole idea of you know, So, we see Molly and Andrew having the conversation with Vince Staples manager like, hey, thanks for hooking this up. And so in that moment, Molly finds out that Andrew is the one who connected EASA to Vince Staples through Nathan. So Molly clearly has a reaction. She doesn't even respond to Andrew's question. She goes storming over to EASA and I feel and I feel like that question is the crux that can very easily be missed, like what's this really about? Or something like that. It was I feel like it was something along those lines. But it was just like, she's your best friend. I'm not supposed to help your best friend, yeah, he said. I think he said something like, you know, I thought you'd be fine with me helping your best friend out. What's this really about? I'm looking like you came for your so called best friend, you when you said it grudgingly at home, and then you said it again when you got there, but you're the best friend and wouldn't want her to be supported. Yeah, but she couldn't stop. She couldn't. You're right, she she couldn't stop and answer that question at that moment. It's like she would have had to confront her own ship. So this is that thing happening again where someone confronts me and I am going to avoid the conversation by deflecting and having a complete different fight with somebody else or with the same person. Interesting, tell me this is not the same. Well, that's a great perspective you have there, because see, I think she was already so heated. She probably didn't even hear Andrew asked that question. I mean, of course she heard him, but she was she had already made it up in her mind that he Sai has respected a boundary. With that, I felt like I was firm and setting and so now I gotta go off it. No, let me very clear, because I know that everybody's like, oh, boundary, boundary, boundary. I'm like, that's a buzzword. And yes, y'all know, y'all know I rocked hard with boundaries, right, But this was I did not see this. Yes, I saw her setting the boundary of I am not going to ask Andrew to do this thing for you because I don't feel comfortable with it. So, yes, the boundary. She had no emotional capital in that bank to withdraw. Let's be clear, Molly had fucked up with Andrew, so it would have looked good when I'm coming back to make up with this person to now be requesting anything. Now, that's the backstory we have. That is not what she told Issa. All she said to Issa was that the relationship is important to me, and I want to protect that and I want these parts of my life separate, which sounded and you know he's to ask of what it, Matt, but Molly was not going to offer that. What she meant to say, or the way that I'm interpreted is you messy Issa, and you're gonna do some homegrown ship that I don't want my name, my man's name anywhere near. That's what I interpreted. Now, maybe that's an unfair interpretation, so you can go ahead and take it to leave it if you know whatever you want to do with it. But she said I'm not gonna ask. She didn't say that no one can ask. So there's that, But also the fact that Molly continues to display this idea of ownership of people who she has a relationship with. It there's a running problem with her. So she owns Andrew and now owns all of his resources and has the right to deny them to other people. Put me on because I'm not I don't understand, but you know, this kind of feels like the same kind of thing that was happening with her mom and dad after she found out that her dad was unfaithful, right, so so she kind of owned this, like feeling like she needed to protect her mom even though her mom had clearly made peace with the situation exactly like some of the like yes you have hurts, but stand in your place with your hurts, don't stay in someone else's place, because it's almost like she wanted to be upset on behalf of Andrew. And I'm looking like Andrew is telling you it didn't cost him nothing but to eat mail. So calm down stairs, like this is this is not the boundary violation that you think it is. It's the one that you are creating in your head. You do not own Andrew. You cannot keep his resources to yourself, and for what purpose other than to punish Issa, because that's what it seemed like to me. She wanted to punish her, and the way that she was going to punish her was for her entire event to fail. But that would fit her narrative right, like if if Andrew had not been able to save her um now, she might have been able to find someone else. We don't know, but if if Molly's running narrative is I am the one there to pick up the pieces, then it serves her interests and her narrative to let this thing feel, which would be exactly why she would want to be the lynchpin there. Why she wanted to be the gatekeeper to Andrew. She forgot that Nathan exists, and that if anybody's claiming ownership over anyone, and let's be clear, you cannot own a human being, then the only person that would be able to claim that would be Nathan. Nathan would be able to say, but Andrew is my friend, right, because dude, let's not forget that. Issa. I mean, Molly met Andrew through Nathan. So I look like, let's let's let's all the way chill, let's all the way fall back. I'm like you saying that you don't want to ask somebody something. That is setting a boundary, and it's a beautiful, firm boundary, and I'm very proud that Molly was able to set it. She's entitled to that, exactly. Molly is not entitled to saying that Andrew is not allowed to help people that she knows unless they go through her. It is not hers, He is not hers. It cost her a phone call, it costs a phone call to Nathan Nathan, it costs a conversation with Andrew, and Andrew cost the email. The only person mad in any of this is Molly, Molly trying to be like, you used Andrew, you use Nathan, You're a user, and I'm just like, whoa what whoa? Whoa whoa, buddy, Let's slow down. Why are you taking ownership to be upset on behalf of people who are not MAdM And it doesn't even sound like, uh, Lisa set out to ask Nathan to ask Andrew. It's I mean, because we heard Nathan leave the message right, and so it's reasonable. I think the leap that I'm making is that you know, she has this conversation with Molly. She's upset, She's trying to scroll through all of these numbers of old people to try to find somebody. Nathan has reached out, and so, in a moment of weakness or whatever, she wants to feel comforted, she wants to feel supported. She talks with the Nathan, who then says, you know, like, oh, I'll just ask Andrew for you. So we don't know if she shared that. Molly said no, she wasn't gonna ask, Like, we don't know how all of that happened. But it doesn't sound like, yeah, it doesn't sound like she hung up with Molly and then said, well, I know somebody else who knows Andrew. I'm gonna call Nathan, she said. Nathan asked how was things happening for the block party, and she told him that her headliner fell out, so it doesn't even sound like it was. You know, like, I'm going to try to get that Andrew another way. It just kind of happened again that there is this other link to Andrew exactly. And I'm just like, to me, the biggest problem here is how Molly claims ownership over people. And I mean it's it's and how she stopped Nathan from being able to give his apologies to Issa, decided that Issa didn't need to talk to Andrew, to um to Nathan. She decided it for Issa. She did that last season and I'm just like, but you know, she's like constantly speaking for people. So now she's claimed Andrew as her own and she's making herself Jesus in his life. Like no one can get through to Andrew but through me, I am the life of truth in the way, and that's where the buck stops. And I'm just like, you gotta stop, you gotta stop, because he's not yours to dictate what he does. With his resources and clear and this is something that other seasons as well. And what this is, this is Molly's m o of oh Issa is mine, and I will stop people having contact with her as is my choice to do. Mm hmmmm hmmm. Yeah. So I mean, when you think about that is a very different relationship dynamic, right, Like, if I feel like you are mine, then I'm not really in relationship to you. I am in relationship over you exactly. I lord over you. I make the decisions here. And you can still say that in a way that she's working as though Issa in a way still belongs to her and what she wants to do with her. Issa is punished. I want to punish my Issa, so the other people that I own are not allowed to help, are not allowed to help you. I want you to flail and I want you to eventually fail and come crawling back to me. And that is the dynamic of our relationship. Wow. Wow, And of course most of this is likely is not happening on a conscious level, right, But I think you know I want you to right, I'm lord over you kind of thing. Most people do not do that, but it's more loy but like, but let's be were like nicky. Molly has to be aware of some of the stuff that she's doing, or maybe she would have been more aware of she wasn't spending so much timeline to her therapist. Right, That's why I was gonna say, we have not seen the good old therapist with that beautiful office again, and so we don't know. I mean, I think it's reasonable to believe that she's either not seeing the therapist anymore, you know, maybe they're just not you know, sharing that kind of thing. But we've not heard her make any reference to anything with the therapist. So I definitely think that would be key because, like we talked about in our last conversation here on the podcast, they're the lack of awareness and self awareness from Molly is just astounding in continues to get in her way in terms of her relationships exactly. I feel like, and I felt this way for a while. I feel like Issa has been able to see the ways in which she is messy and then makes steps and strives toward fixing whatever the thing is. Right, And I'm not saying that she is always successful. I'm saying that she is generally more aware. I think that Molly sees herself in a certain light, in the same way that she sees Issa in a certain light and thus is unable to see anything else. She does not see her blind spots. So this gets me into thinking about Jahry's window. So the idea is that there are these four pains. So you have your public self, your private self, your blind self, and your undiscovered self. And I think that Molly is most acquainted with her public self. She knows how to put on airs. She keeps whatever pieces of her messiness to herself, but she keeps them very small because she never wants them to speak for her. But she has laring blind spots that she is so unaware of that impact how other people get to experience her. And I'm not saying that she's not an awesome person to be around, but I am saying that she's got a lot of work to do. I mean, looking back, like she thought that the white law firm that she worked that was a problem, and then got to the black law firm and had similar problems. Who is the common denominator here? Yeah, And I feel like that's a part of the work that a lot of us have to do. Right, Like, I think there becomes a point at which in your adult life, maybe young adult life, maybe a little later adult life, like you do have to wrestle with those ideas of like who am I you know, to myself, who do other people see it? What's the part of me that I really don't want people to see? Because that's usually where the work is, right, It is not always Prettever you have shame, that is where you have work. That is where it is. And so I think that is the part that we haven't seen Molly do either with a therapist. Are alone, Yeah, And I feel like Molly has done a great job of calling Issa out on the things that Issa knows herself to be shameful for. She she's good at calling people out. And I'm like, that's great. Everyone wants. I think that everyone needs a friend that will see clearly. But that friend also has to be willing to grow with you and see you for where you are and have the gift of timing, because that continues to be a problem, Like now the time for you that you want to start a shouting match at my job, at my work event. What in the world. So back to your earlier statement, you know, we were both just dumbfounded by the things that they said to one another. So where do you think they could even possibly go from here? I mean, if if an apology is not on the table, then the friendship is not either, clearly clearly, because I'm just like, wow, the way they were eveserating each other, the ill, ill begotten timing of wanting to have this conversation. I'm looking like, I get it. Your emotions are running high. Here you are at a successful, non home grown event, so you're probably already feeling a little bit some type of way and enjoying yourself despite yourself because this is the type of environment that she has created. You got called out for not necessarily seeing the work by your partner earlier, and you know you're trying to make amends through food that you feel was rejected because someone is working at a work event. And just so I get it, Like, I'm thinking about all the ways that emotions are running high, and at no point was there I need I need a full time. I need to sit down, And that's usually what I tell people to do. On looking like all those emotions are coming at you all at once, sit down, because those emotions will have you move into doing something that you have no business doing. Sit down on the ground. Actually that's usually what I tell people. And now I'm like, this is a literal grounding technique. Sit your butt on the ground, because do you know how foolish a person whose angry looks trying to yell sitting on the floor. So I just not gonna quite work. It does not work in the same way at all. So that is something that like when for some clients that I've had that have had some anger issues that they were trying to work out, I'm like, well, I need you to sit on the floor. Let's practice that. And how it is has almost immediate calming effect to sit on the floor because when we're angry, the first thing that we do when we get arouses, we get up right and we get bigger, and I'm like, you need to take yourself smaller, and making yourself smaller it also gives you more space because anger takes up a lot of mental space, takes up a lot of emotional space. And I'm not saying that anger is not a fine emotion. It's one of my favorite. Um I believe that emotions. Anger is the emotion of changed More than anything, I am in love with anger. It's one of my favorite emotions. However, sometimes you need to sit down before you do something that is regretful because anger also clouds your one's judgment. And she lost her judgment. She forgot that this is a work event, that this and and now you know, like everything good great, But because they get into this argument, now it's whoa, there's shooting. It's like, come on, now, that's Molly. Yeah, this is the result of your ill, big gotten timing. Yeah, and so you know, I think you're right, Like, it's not that she was not entitled to her feelings, even though we may not agree that this was the boundary that was violated. She's entitled to her feelings and that's how she is. She felt by remind everybody out there that feelings are not facts, right, she felt that way, so she deserved to address it. It just didn't need to be in that moment. She could have at the that it wasn't the right it wasn't the right time. It wasn't the right time. Yeah. So I mean, so, you know, like we talked about on the last episode, timing is a lot of it of you know, that goes into effectively communicating and not in a way that you feel like, Okay, now it's going to be the perfect time to have a difficult conversation, because there usually is not a perfect time, but there can be a better time than at the end of your friends you know, hugely successful work event that she has poured months and you know, lots and lots of time and resources into pulling off that you needed to be told that she poured in time, months, and resources, and and I was like, and at the very least, I'm looking like, you don't even think that's disrespectful to Andrew. Like if you do, you don't disrespectful to Andrew because his name is evolved in this because he sent the email. Yeah. Yeah, So it'll be interesting to kind of see how either of those things resolved. Right. So we saw, you know, a little clip of the next episode where each of them is like, oh, well, have you reached out or have you reached out? You know. So Kelly and Tiffany are kind of you know, refereeing, so to speak, and it sounds like they have been really trying to do a good job. I mean, Tiffany physically was like, hey, guys, we don't have to do this right now. She tried to stop it from escalating, but Molly was not having it. But yeah, so we see in the future clip that you know, they're both maybe not reaching out to one another. So it will be interesting to kind of see who makes that first step, you know, like, at what point do they even try to have a conversation if that happens, we don't even know, So it'll be interesting to see how the rest of the season unfulls I am, oh, I'm definitely interested. I was like, oh oh, but besides an apology, what else do you think would need to happen for them to even be able to reconnect? I mean, for me, number one, it's not a standard apology. It's the fourth step apology. So I'm sorry for next time, and how can I make amends? That is a fourth step apology, So not just apologizing because most people do step one of the steps out of the four steps, and that's not enough in this case. Both of them need to actually recognize how they contributed to this problem, how they can how they both allowed it to to get to a space where they were in that particular space, because they both have a lot of responsibility to to to claim for themselves. So being able to recognize that will even facilitate an apology. They first both got to realize that they both suck up and then be able to put their pride aside. And I don't know if that is a space that either of them are in right now, putting that pride aside. I think that's as well versed than putting her pride aside, because she sucks a lot, right, so easier for her. But for someone who believes themselves to mostly be right, it can be very hard to admit when you're wrong. Yeah, so they're gonna have to put the pride aside and come together and have a conversation that looks a lot like I'm sorry. Here's what I'm sorry for. This is what I can do next time to make sure that this thing does not repeat itself, And I would like to make amends. How can I do that with you? And that is just one part of the conversation, right, because the other part is the conversation that they still had never had, which is what is even happening in this relationship dynamic. So there is the conversation around the apology and then a conversation about like, yo, what happened here? Do we even want to continue in this friendship? Exactly? And to me, I'm just like that, this is why I created that relationship goals guy, because you have to evaluate what it is that you're wanting so that when you do come together, you already have it laid out and you can have that conversation. It's hard to have it if you don't know what it is that you want, or if you don't recognize what it is that you've lost. So it's still for free, It's still on my Instagram page, so people can still get it, but you know, like taking that time to just be like, Okay, this is what where we were, this is how we connected in the first place. Okay, this is where we are. Now what do I want? What do I need? And what do I want? And do I think it can be provided in this relationship? Because even if they do come to a space where they're able to apologize, it does not mean that they have to be friends. I think that the apologies are owed and that they should pay what they owe. They both owe an apology to one another, But it doesn't mean that just because you apologize that now you gotta be cool. It doesn't mean that now you gotta be friends. That's still a discussion that they have to have about whether or not that's even the direction they want to go in, right, because, like we talked about, you know, even before this big blow up, it looked like there needed to be a conversation about whether this is a relationship that we both really want to do the work to continue, even really still like each other. Yeah, and sometimes it's not even like do we even still like each other? Because we can we can still like and adore and love each other and still not be in the space to be in one another's lives as an active participant the work. And it is okay to move into that space where it's like, all right, I love you, I still want what's best for you. I just don't want to be actively here to see it happen or to make it happen. I can't be in that space with you. It is okay to be there to love somebody from a distance. From a distance, it has to be that way sometimes, as difficult as it really really can be. Sometimes that that's what has to happen. Sometimes the roads that were on, they they diverge from one another. Maybe you will intersect again, Maybe one day you will run. Maybe you're gonna run parallel for a while, and maybe one day you come back together and you share the highway together. But until that time, you gotta turn left and they gotta turn right. If you come back together, awesome, and if you don't enjoy your journey, m m. Well, we will wrap up on that note. So I anticipate that we will likely come together at least one more time for the season finale, as we kind of continue to see where this thing winds up at the end of the season. So you've already been excited. So you mentioned your relationship goals, so we will share the link for that. So anybody who wants to worksheet that Dr Orio Will has brilliantly crafted, then we will definitely have that in the show. Notes are there are other resources, are things that you have available that you want to share. But there are a couple of things that like if you're ready to have the conversation with people in your life, there's an ice eatment sheet that I think is just superb. If you put in I statement and Google and put in therapist aid. It's a free it's a free website with free resources. But the I statement sheets. Specifically, it's pretty dope and it really does help you to have that conversation. It might I might have already like put like put it in the relationship goals that I don't know, but there's that there's um what we're here trying to look at my take a little sneak peek at my my my bookshelf. But like anything that you can get your hands on about communication, UM specifically, I think that a lot of the communication that we have is really based on ourselves. So being able to identify what your communication style is. There are you know, for attachment styles, but your communication style can also be very much attached to that. So taking the time to go and look up and look into that so that you can also have some conversations as are definitely going to be needed. UM and these are I think that's another free resource that I'm talking about. So Okay, I mean, I'm gonna see, I'm gonna see, I'm gonna trying to get all the things and I have decided that I'm definitely right. In the next book, Um, it is probably going to be a little bit of a workbook, definitely going to be a little expensive, definitely going to be around communication. It's gonna be called say it what You're in an asshole. As you share with the last episode, I love it, so we will. I admit writing this book. So I love how you come to the podcast to give us breaking news on all of the books. It was the podcast originally where you told us that Cocoa Butter and hair Grease was coming. So now another exclus and we are having said with your internet whole forthcoming and we will be sure to share that with everybody. And you know, I can't wait till you write a book. Oh okay, we're gonna come. We're gonna cut that from those So tell everybody where they can find you. On social they can find me at A NOD right, that's my first name backwards A N N O D R I G h T. On Instagram and Facebook, and on Twitter, you can find me at Dr Donald Orio woh perfect. Well, thank you for joining us again, thank you for having me. Be sure to have all this in the show notes for anybody who wants to connect and check out all those incredible resources all right now, hopefully don't give us some heart poplications and moving forward episodes, we will keep our fingers crossed. I'm so glad Dr Orio Will was able to join us yet again this week. Don't forget to check out the show notes from this episode at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session, to grab your copy of her Relationship Goals Worksheat, or to grab your copy of her book Cocoa Butter and Hair Grease. And don't forget to share your takeaways with us from the episode on social media using the hashtag CBG in session. And please share this episode with all of the other Insecure fans in your life. If you're looking for a virtual therapist in your state, check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into this topic and connect with some other systems in your area, come on over and join us in the Yellow Couch Collective where we take a deeper die from the topics from the podcast and just about everything else. You can join us at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash y c C. Thank you' all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care, can be Witch

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The Therapy for Black Girls podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a license 
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