With its no-bars-held look into the insidious world of investment banking, many of us fell in love with the HBO MAX series INDUSTRY, and more specifically, its non-traditional lead character, Harper Stern. Harper’s brash and unapologetic maneuvering through the gritty political world set her up as a breakout character for the series and an interesting and unexpected deviation from the strong Black woman trope. Joining me this week for a deeper dive into Harper's character is Organizational Psychologist, Nchopia Nwokoma, who speaks to how relationships with organizations and communities impact how individuals show up in the workplace. During our conversation, we unpack Harper’s journey across three seasons, reflecting on what her victories and challenges at PeerPoint might teach us about our own workplaces.
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The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Y'all. Thanks so much for joining me for this special bonus episode of the Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after a word from our sponsors.
Hi. I'm Chopio Wilcoma, and I'm on the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. Today. I'm in session unpacking the organizational psychology of industries Harper Stern, with.
Its snow bars held look into the insidious world of investment banking. Many of us fell in love with the HBO Max series Industry, and more specifically, its non traditional lead character, Harper Stern. Harper's brash and unapologetic maneuvering through the gritty political world, set her up as a breakout character for the series and an interesting and unexpected deviation from the strong black woman trope. While the chaos of our character keeps our eyes glued for every minute of the show, I wanted to unpack and explore the dynamics that create and enable a person like Harper to exist in the first place. Joining me for this conversation is organizational psychologists Tropia Wacoma, who speaks to how relationships with organizations and communities impact how individuals show up in the workplace. During our conversation, we unpack Harper's journey across three seasons, reflecting on what her victories and challenges at Peerpoint might teach us about our own workplaces. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media using the hashtag TBG in session or join us over in the sister circle to talk more about the episode. You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining me today, Trophia.
Thank you so much for having me, doctor Joy.
Yes, it's exciting to chat with you. I know we're going to get all into one of my new favorite shows, but before that, can we talk a little bit about what exactly is organizational psychology and how how do you use it to assess work environments.
Yes, I'm always happy to talk about industrial organizational psychology, and what iowe psychology is is the study of people in the workplace. So we take a scientific lens to understanding people, problems, organizations, and overall strategy in the workplace, and then using evidence based practices to support hr leaders in the business and overall and achieving what the business sets out to achieve. So that's a lot of business talk for saying we really try to help organizations hire the right people, develop the right people, put the right processes and systems in place so that businesses can do whatever they set out to do originally.
So it's kind of like as individuals and couples and families, maybe we go to a different kind of psychologists with businesses when they are wanting to function healthily, they would go to an industrial organizational psychologist exactly.
So they'll go to an industrial organizational psychologists or have them embedded in their workplace.
Got it? Got it? Okay? And so I know there's been lots of conversations around like employee engagement, employee satisfaction. Can you tell me a little bit about how you all measure and in assess for that.
Yes, okay, this is one of my favorite topics. I started off my career working in employee surveys employee engagement. But what that typically looks like in your workplace is your organization will send out an annual or quarterly or sometimes just on demand survey asking you to share about your experiences in the workplace, and based on those responses, there are measures embedded in that survey that allow the organization to understand how engage employees are. And when we're talking about engagement, we're talking about if an employee likes working there, if they're willing to go above and beyond, if they find meaning in their work, if they feel like they have autonomy and growth opportunities, and if they feel like they're connected to others. Those things drive engagement. So you'll see on employee surveys they'll measure those things to at the overall sentiment of what an employee engagement looks like in the organization, and then based on that you'll see different activities occur focused on closing that gap. You might see new training initiatives, you might see new communication and initiatives, new growth opportunities. The survey reveals what they should do. So this is a plug. If you work for an organization that cares enough to survey, you, please participate in the survey. I know people get nervous about if they're anonymous or not, or if their responses are confidential, or they'll be treated punitively because of the results. I would say typically that's not the case, but your feedback is used to make your organization a better place.
I'm really glad you saying that, because that was definitely gonna be my follow up question, right, especially if there are questions on there where they're supposed to be anonymous. Right, But like, if I'm the only black woman in my unit and there's some conversation or question about like diversity or do you feel like your managers you know, respond to you will. Is it okay to be completely honest, especially if you feel like you're not going to be really anonymous.
I would say it depends, of course. Always advocate for protecting yourself. Do what you feel comfortable with. But here's some things you can look for in speaking up on your employee survey. If that survey is coming from a third party, not from your organization, then that means someone else is going to see the results before your organization, so you should feel protected. But typically survey results are not reported unless there's enough people responding to the survey for them to cut the data down so that it cannot isolate one person. So let's say that you are the only person in your organization and you're answering a question about diversity, it shouldn't be able to drill down and isolate your scores. Typically the threshold is we need three or five people to have responded to particular survey item or within a particular demographic in order to report out on it.
Got it, Well, that's super helpful to know. I didn't realize that, So I'm sure that will be helpful to other people. Thank you. So what typical character profiles that you find in any given workplace are, specifically in the world of finance, and which one would you say is harper if so?
Wow? Okay, So there is a multitude of personalities that we see in the workplace, especially in the world of finance. So what you might come across in finance is usually goal oriented people, ambitious people, people who like some clarity, people who are excel who are driven by numbers. Harper stands out to me because she strikes me as a high potential amongst high potential people. If you think about who's drawn to the world of finance, they tend to look for people who can operate in high pressured environments, who are willing to go above and beyond to succeed in the workplace, who are interested in advancing their careers overall. And so we see Harper in her initial season. She brings that to the table. Right, this is a person she hasn't graduated from college, but she's saying, Hey, I want to enter into this world, and I know that I can do it. I'm going to do it. No one has to tell me that indicates this is a high potential person. But Harper's profile overall does mirror what we would expect to see in finance. That goal oriented, ambitious professional.
Got it. So I'm here, Ashpia, what is your initial read of industry? And like the workplace that we see in Peerpoint, so as an inside of looking out, I am not at all connected to finance. Most often, I do not understand anything that they're talking about, but it always feels very dramatic, right like it very dramatic, feels very stressful. This feels like a very toxic workplace to work in. What's your initial read as a professional of the workplace environment we see in Peerpoint?
I do agree it strikes me as a toxic workplace where not all would be able to thrive. There are people who are attracted to that type of workplace where there are some gray lines and there's not so much restrictions in terms of day to day behaviors. You see restrictions and regulation regarding the work that they do, but not in how they work with each other overall. For me, I would say that is not an environment in which I would find enjoyable. I think this is another plug for understanding yourself, understanding what makes you tick, Understanding what you're trying to accomplish in your career and your overall goals and objectives, Understanding the type of people you need to work with to accomplish those goals, in order to understand the culture you're going to best fit in and the type of work you're going to be able to do so that if you're placed in an environment like what we see Harper works in at her workplace, that you're actually able to thrive and excel versus being in that type of an environment and being like, Okay, wait a second, I don't operate like this. I don't show what, I don't talk to people crazy, I don't color in between the lines. This is not for me. It's all about knowing yourself and understanding what you're trying to accomplish, so that you know what makes sense for you to do.
Yeah, and as an organizational psychologist, like, what role could you see yourself or if somebody like you playing enhancing team dynamics kind of like the ones we see with Popper and her teammates at peerpoints, So enhancing team dynamics as well as improving communication.
Yeah, so iopsychologists play a role in those type of environments on a day to day basis. So in terms of team dynamics, that might look like administering some personality assessments to individuals on the team so that we can better understand what drives them, what motivates them, what makes them tick, how they tend to show up bringing the team together so that they're able to get insight into each other's preferred style, each other's preferences, each other's traits, drivers motives, and then using that to help the team understand how to best work with each other. So in thinking about industry, we see there's a point where people push back on Rishi and they're like, you make us uncomfortable, and he's like, oh, I thought I was funny. In a team dynamics setting, where you're looking at actual traits and personality and you're looking at people's preferred style, natural preferences, you're able to dig into that so that the organization or the team can have conversations. They can put everything on the table and say, all right, we get this is how you are. That helps me understand you better. I know how to better relate to you. But now you understand who I am, you understand my boundaries. And then from there, ideally the team establishes ways of working so that they're able to move forward in a healthy manner in pursuit of their overall goals or excellence for the team or organization.
You mentioned the word boundaries, and I think that that is a big one for the environments that we see at Peerpoint right in on industry because it feels like they're just countless boundary violations. That's a large part of what it feels like is going on that even as some of the first years are coming in, it feels like they are being groom to have their boundaries violated in lots of different ways. So how would a professional come in and talk with an organization about helping the team to do a better job of managing boundaries?
Well, Number one, in an organization like Peerpoint, they have certain guidelines established and you see throughout the series when Eric will pull them into a room for and he was like, oh, we have to be here for fifteen minutes to talk about this. Right. So they're good about like, let's look to policy to determine what we're going to do, but to actually live that on a day to day basis and say all right, no, we're not going to push ethical guidelines, We're not going to push ethic lines. We're not going to tiptoe through the lines and demand that that happens. We don't see We see Eric say things like oh no, we got to know where the red line is. But when people tiptoe on it, he cares for some people, he doesn't care for others, So it's really holding true to that, recognizing people who uphold the behavior. So we know this is a goal oriented organization where people like to be celebrated and they want to be known for the best, holding up those individuals who exhibit the right behaviors, rewarding them, compensating them from exhibiting those behaviors, doing things like hiring people who are going to promote living or operating, or not pushing back against boundaries. There's just certain things organizations can do to support creating intentional environments around things like not tiptoeing the lines on boundaries.
So something else sopia that we hear in common language, I think is being your authentic self in the workplace, right, and I think there's less of discussion around what that looks like and depending on your background, how yourself can you be? Can you say something about how organizational psychology informs people about how to show up in their workplaces?
Yes, okay, so there's been a great deal of research done around this. Myself and a friend did some research around being authentic in the workplace, and our research found that at the director plus level underrepresentative groups feel comfortable showing up exactly as who they are. They're no longer masking earlier in your career. It's all about assimulating. I have a good friend who just wrote an amazing book on this topic, and it's about how we tend to learn how to navigate the unwritten rules of the workplace. Organizational psychology tells us right that there is the need to do both. There's the need to be authentic, understand who you are, Understand what you're trying to accomplish. But organizations do have a coolture that require understanding and navigating in order to achieve your overall goals. In our work that we've done, the research we've done around authenticity, what we've actually been trying to land at is perhaps when organizations say be authentic, that's not the word that they're supposed to be using, or that's not the word that they mean to use. Because is the American workplace truly ready for all individuals to show up as their authentic self in the workplace? I would wager not. But what we are told is yes, kind of exactly as who you fully are, and you're going to be embraced. We see even in industry how there is pushback against that, Like people show up as who they are and it doesn't work, Reashie, he's just being who he is, but it does not work for good or bad.
So what word do you think they mean to use or what would be a better word in your mind for what people are really meaning when they say, come and be your authentic self?
Now that I am still toying around with, still trying to determine what that word is, but I think what they're saying, really there's an asterisk. Show up as your best self for work, Show up as authentically you are as appropriate for work.
M right, right, but still fit in kind of with the culture here.
M so just fit in be you, but not too much but not too much of you?
Right right, right right. More from our conversation after the break. So, in many ways we see Harper's journey is one of isolation. She's a double minority in her field, living in a foreign country and competing at a high level, with a considerable disadvantage in not having her degree. As you mentioned earlier, from this angle, do you feel like Harper faced challenges in terms of diversity and inclusion? And how have these experiences affected her professional growth.
Harper definitely faced challenges in terms of diversity and inclusion. Some of those you see had to do with her mindset around not having that degree and what she was willing to do to prove herself as worthy due to not having that degree or not necessarily being similar to the others in her class that she came in with. In terms of diversity inclusion, you do see it. It's a very subtle undertone where people are willing to take her under their wing, and sometimes you're like, all right, some of that has to do with Harper her personality, but then you also understand that might have to do with some inclusion efforts. But you also see in later seasons Harper's demographics comes into play where it's like, all right, she's been taken under people's wings, she's been coached, she's been mentored, but now she's become who they've mentored her to be, and that's not really received well.
It kind of reminds me of conversations we've had on the podcast with another organizational psychologist, doctor Keisha Thomas, about pets a threat, right, and so we will groom you and you're a golden child for a little while until it seems as though you're a threat now to others in the organizations. What would you say there, Yes.
And I absolutely adore doctor Keisha Thompson, so shouts out to her. But yes, it's exactly that, right. Someone takes you under your wing. They want to develop you, they want to mentor you. They want to say they played a role in your development, but not too much. Don't go past your mentor, don't exceed your mentor until their demise. And where we saw some conflict between Harper and Eric was she grew up too fast, too soon, too early, and Eric was not having that, although it seemed to be masked under oh no, she's doing these unethical things. But we do see that Eric tends to promote that in some cases, although in other cases he slaps wrists.
Yeah, and how would you say you've seen Harper's leadership style really develop throughout the seasons of Industry?
Ah? Yes, that's one of my favorite parts. You saw Harper not being able to necessarily command respect or have people do what she wants them to do in earlier seasons, and by the end of it, she's calling the shots. What comes to mind is that scene with Harper and Eric where they're sitting in the restaurants and she tells Eric, look at me in my face, like you're going to answer all of my calls, and now that he's her client, he has to. Or when she's hiring for Levia than Alpha, and she's able to have the conversation with Rishi and Sweetpea, and you see her taking a more command control, authoritarian style about what's going to happen while still be inflexible. We definitely see growth in there versus the more passive, unsure approach that we may have seen in earlier seasons, or even at the beginning of season three when she's first working at her new firm and she wants to be promoted from answering the phones and managing her boss's diaries to actually trading, and at that time she's just there to do the bidding and she's like, Hey, I'm here to do whatever for you. Towards the end of the season, she's calling the shots.
Something that I think could be interesting and if you'll engage me in like a bit of a thought exercise for this. So, like you said, sometimes io psychologists are embedded within the organization and I feel like they even played with that a little bit at peer Point, though you didn't really see like a full session with gun in house psychologists. But if you were like embedded in a system like Peerpoint and somebody like Harper came to you with the story she has around, like the relationship she's burned with her mentor Eric we see with Petra with Jesse, like she has a lot of relationships that were once very significant and solid and then somehow she ends up torching. It feels like the relationships. If she came to you and you were embedded in a peer Point, what kind of things might you talk with her about the way she might advance up a corporate latter in a place like Peerpoint.
Well, I would have Harper do some self exploration exercises to understand what motivates her and understand who she is, because Harper strikes me as the type to like to take risks and call her outside the line. I would tell her, let's create a plan for having you succeed at peer Point, but let's create an exit strategy for you to find an organization that's better suited for you. Because the hierarchical nature of a place like peerpoint, it may not work best for someone with Harper's style. Even at the end of season three with her working with Petra and she's excited about collaborating and having someone to bounce things off of. I kept thinking to myself, that might be great for Harper to do. She probably needs that. But there are just certain personality types, and we look for this when we're assessing leaders and we're looking for who has the potential to succeed at higher levels. We look for individuals who are high on what we call like independence, and they are risk takers and they're willing to blaze the trail for others, and they're comfortable being the only people. They don't need the support of others. They are fine operating solo. They don't need to the crowd to be excited with them or to be thrilled with them. They are driven by their passions and their convictions and they're going to pursue it at all costs, and that's okay to be. We see those people tend to struggle earlier in their careers, like we see with Harper, where there is that tension around all right, I like to do my own thing. I like to take risk. I'm rewarded for it, sometimes I'm punished for it. What do I do? I think the coaching around Harper is, what is it you're trying to accomplish with your career. Let's map out the experiences you need to have to get there, and then let's find the best place for you to be in order to have the career experience you want and mitigate those low points that we see with you.
I really appreciate you sharing some of these scholarship around leadership because I can imagine there may be people enjoying this conversation now who find themselves in a particular place right like, maybe they are struggling earlier in their career because there is this leadership potential. Can you say a little bit more about how someone might identify whether they have some of these leadership skills and how they can navigate their career until maybe they're ready for an exit.
Yeah, I mean it's going to vary from organization. Organization research around potential is not quite clear yet, where we don't have a uniform or a universal model for determining who has potential to succeed at higher levels. So right now it's done for each organization. But if you're interested in that, I would ask their a leader, ask hr you could do some research around what we look like or what we tend to look for potential. But it does involve doing things like individuals raising their hand to take on more work, which I know in our community we say only take the work on that you have been assigned, that you're paid for. When we're looking for individuals who have the potential to seceed at higher levels, it's hey, they're aspirations. Are they raising their hands to do things that they're not asked to do. We also look at things like is this an individual that likes to get things done themselves or do they bring others on to do it? Are they comfortable delegating to others or do they want to be the best subject matter expert doing all the things or are they the person that bring the people together to do the things. They'll look at like political savviness. Does this person know how to navigate the organization, Do they know how to connect with others in the organization and across the enterprise so that they can get things done effectively, or do they stick to a small group. There's are certain things that indicate that the person will be able to get things done more broadly for the organization, and it usually has to do with taking risks, raising their hands to take on work, having a broad network of people to go to to get things done, being a visionary inspiring person, like how are you going to communicate what it is that you want to get done and get others behind it. So some things in the relationship and interpersonal space and communication space also shows up.
I'm glad you brought up the conversations around is it okay to raise your hands to take on extra work? Because I definitely think I see a lot of TikTok in particular conversations around like doing the bare minimum network, like you don't want to be doing too much. You don't want a girl boss too close to the sun, right, Like it's a joke win I see often, And I wonder if there is a balance, because it does feel like sometimes companies take advantage of this idea of people who want to strive for leadership, right, So is there a balance of raising your hand enough to show potential without a company exploiting that interest.
Absolutely there is a balance, and I would say this advice is not for all organizations right, This tends to be for your larger global organizations in which there are truly growth and development opportunities. There are organizations I've seen who take advantage of a person who raises their hands and wants to put more on their plate without getting paid for it, and organizations will do that if you're not clear on what you're trying to accomplish. To mitigate that occurring, I would say again, understand what you're trying to accomplish when you're raising your hand to do things, and make sure the things you're raising your hand to do are in support of a larger vision, of a larger picture. What you're trying to do when you are raising your hand to take on additional work is you're trying to demonstrate skill set or expertise beyond your that your role may not allow you to showcase. So when they are considering promotion or leadership opportunities, they're able to say, oh, this person has that, because we've seen them do it in these other spaces. You also want to be clear as you're doing it. You want to be communicating with your leader or hr or mentors or coaches a little bit about your why behind some of the things you're chasing after and what you're learning from these experiences. So you're doing it in a very strategical way. It's not just raising your hand and putting everything on your plate because you're wanting to show that you're a good go to person for everything. You're being strategic about your approach and determining all right, I one day want to be a CEO. I know right now I'm an IT expert. In order to be CEO, I need to have experience in finance. I need to have experience leading a budget. So let me go lead this ERG that has this big budget. Let me make sure I'm in charge of the budget so I can say I oversaw a P and L and I'm able to get ex experience in it before I move on to whatever else that it is that I'm trying to do.
So the plan behind the why it sounds like it's really.
Important, very important.
Got it more from our conversation after the break. So something else that we hear about is emotional intelligence, And I'd love to hear your thoughts about the role maybe emotional intelligence please for Harper and her ability to navigate a workspace.
Harper and emotional intelligence. She's interesting because I feel like she's got a good read on people. She knows when to pull back, but then she also sometimes just takes decision to not necessarily pay attention to it. We see and how she's able to interact with her clients and just get what she wants done. We see her lean into her ability to understand what motivates people. Harper can do nothing else well. She knows how to align her agenda with the agenda of others, and that involves really understanding them. I think Harper does a good job of knowing more about people than she might reveal about herself, which allows her to understand how to navigate, and that involves emotional intelligence.
I really agree with that assessment because it does feel like she is a bit of a chameleon, right Like it feels like she can become whoever she needs depending on who the client is. What suggestions would you have for people about how to develop their own emotional intelligence.
It's being clear on what emotional intelligence is and understanding how it applies to you and the work that you're doing. I think for all people, you can never go wrong with emotional intelligence. There are assessments out there that can allow you to understand where you're sitting with emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence is one of those things that we're not a good judge of ourselves about. So what will involve asking people when we're talking about emotional intelligence, it's how do you read the room? When you walk into a room? How do you understand stand how you need to show up given the situation? What is your read on how you might need to adjust? Are you understanding where others are coming from? And you're only going to know that about asking others. So it involves asking your friends, your family, your peers to give you feedback and how you're showing up. So it's asking, hey, in given situations, what might have helped me better help you? What might have helped me better show up in that situation? And you're gonna get feedback. The key there is not to just adjust all the way and lose yourself and not be authentic to who you are, and as you're developing, it's also being keenly aware of who you are, but understanding where you might need to give and where you might need to take in order to achieve your goals given a situation, so.
Early in the conversation. You identified Harper and others who might be drawn to Finance as high potential, and I think what we also maybe see with that is definitely present in Peerpoint is like high stress, high pressure. Can you talk a little bit about how how all people who may be high potential might be able to manage their stress and really have outlets for coping given that they are maybe attracted to these kinds of environments.
I want to use the term goal oriented individuals, individuals who are attracted to those high stress environments with quick wins is to me what strikes me as an ideal like Peerpoint finance individual and your question was around managing stress, be well rounded, have outlets outside of work so that you can remember who you are and so that you can manage the stress in environments like that, metrics driven environments where they're arguing about sales credit, where it's very clear on who's performing, and how it can easily become your entire world. We saw in season one there is a person who worked himself into his unfortunate demise. What you'll have to do in those type of environments is have clear boundaries, know when to unplug. Environments like that will often require you to work nights and weekends, but put some parameters around it. Maybe it's only work late nights twice a week, only, work weekends every other weekend. Put some boundaries around it, and then have non work related outlets. Join extracurricular activities. Make sure you have friend groups. Make sure you have things like a therapist on call or a life coach, or a safe place to process your feelings and emotions so that you're thinking about life outside of your work, so that you are able to show up the best version of you in the workplace. Your goal here is to get outside of the bubble of work because research has shown us that the individuals who perform the best it's not just being heads down, tunnel vision focused on your work. To be most effective in your work, you do have to come up for air, breathe a little bit, speak to others, take stock of the landscape around you, and then that'll open the doors for better ideas, better thinking, better strategy around your day to day work, no matter what your data day work. Maybe you know.
The other thing it feels like it would be important to set some boundaries around is substance use. Because of course, an industry. I mean, this is a dramaticize show, right, but it does feel like there was a lot of substance use in the workplace and outside you know ed client dinners and all of these other things, and so it feels like that's something to pay attention to as well.
That is definitely something to pay attention to. So let me put an asterisk beside outlets outside of work, let's say healthy coping mechanisms. In an industry you see a prevalence of alcohol usage, substance abuse, gambling, things like that to manage the stress, which, again, in this type of workplace, people are chasing those quick fixes rather than the things that we know will support you long term, and those are those agil things nobody likes to hear. Drink your water, go out for a run, sit in the sun, journal, Those things go a long way. And if you put those practices in place early on and make them routine, you hopefully won't get to a point where you're having to turn to other mechanisms to cope. And of course there's all sorts of nuances with this, with different health issues or different genetic factors and traits. But ideally, doing things like working out, running, journaling, getting in some sun, having loved ones, whatever that might look like for you around you will provide healthy outlets for you to manage stress in the workplace.
Tobya, how would you say you've seen Harper's sense of belonging and identity shift throughout the seasons of industry.
So throughout industry when we saw her season one, she was just hoping to make it right. And then you put her against someone like Yasmin, who seems like she belongs in a way, which is interesting because Yasmin two didn't necessarily belong. You see, Harper's just looking for her place or a sense of belonging in season one, by the in a sense, in season Threepper is running the thing and facilitating belonging for others. I particularly like how she brought sweet Pea in at the end. So where sweet Pea was this person? When we first see Sweetpea, she just seems as out of place as anyone else here. She is on the floor trying to record content and they're like, we don't do this here. You even see in that conversation with Rishi, He's like she has an OnlyFans account, and Harper's like the times have changed, and I think something that is a pertinent call out for all of us is the times are changing. Whereas initially Harper was trying to assimilate into a white, male predominated field where it was encouraged to be like them, towards the end of season three, it's like, all right, the times are changing, and what has worked in the past is not going to work in the future. We're shifting with the times. Harper's facilitating that for others rather than standing up age old stereotypes and saying, no, this is how we all need to look like or show up in order to be people in finance.
M You know, I appreciate you saying that, because it does feel like in season one, like it does not feel like racial solidarity is very important to Harper at all, right, Like we see Gus is the other, very obvious other black person in the workplace. I mean, it doesn't feel like there's much of a kinship necessarily, right, like I think that you would expect if there are only a couple of you rights we tend to find one another in the workplace. It doesn't feel at all that Harper is interested in it. But we do see in later seasons that she and Gus do develop more of a relationship and have kind of private jokes that like even Rob is left out of. What does organizational psychology have to say about interracial workplace dynamics?
Yeah, I mean in the workplace, if you feel a sense of connection, if you feel a sense of belonging, you're going to perform better than individuals who don't have that right. If you see yourself in that organization, if you feel connected, if you have a friend at work, you feel like you have an outlet, you're going to perform better than others who are just standing on their own. So organizational psychology tells us that the workplace needs to facilitatennecting individuals, and then individuals in the workplace should seek out that sense of connection. When we see individuals who still connected, like they have a best friend at work, like they see others similar to them in that workplace, that's going to increase their likelihood of staying with that organization. Of feeling excited when they go to work, feeling engaged when they go to work, that feeling of wanting to go above and beyond it shows up more so there than for an individual who feels like they're isolated and no one really cares if they're at work or not. No one really cares about them as individuals.
So it feels like the through line relationship we really see exploited industry is this relationship between Harper and Yasmin. As you've talked about before. Complicated, I think is the best word I could use for the relationship between Yasmin and Harper. And I wonder what were your thoughts on watching it, thinking about it as a professional, What do you feel like it really said about women's relationships in the workplace that we saw through the relationship with Yasmin and Harper.
I thought that just a very interesting dichotomy between Harper and Yasmin. You have two people who are both working in the same place. They have two different backgrounds, two different experiences. Harper's come in and she's driven to excel. She's motivated from getting away from her past and being independent. Yasmin is motivated to prove herself as an independent person. You have Yasmin whose dad is for all intents and purposes, bankrolling her lifestyle or supporting her with connections. You have Harper who's trying to create that that relationship shows us the multitude of experiences women in the workplace have. If you even think about the season finale, we see Yasmin making the decision to marry for a lifestyle and comparison to Harper making the decision to build probably will amount to an empire, which again shows or reflects the decisions women in the workplace often have to make when it comes to their future or what they're trying to accomplish in both their personal and professional wives. Yasmin, she lost her job, she leaned into love, she leaned into romance. She said, I deserve it all, and she's going to get her all through a different mechanism than Harper. Harper too silently, you know, you can see in her actions has decided that she deserves it all, but she's going to go out and create it.
You know, that's interesting because I wonder what all is actually for Harper, because I think in that season, Fanante, we also see what looks like the development of a relatively healthy workspace and then she's like, you know what, I actually don't want this. And now it'll be interesting to see what we see in season four. So, speaking of what do you think we might see As Harper's character continues to develop in her journey continues, what do you think we might see in season four?
I think we're going to see more of Harper becoming who she is. So the whole thing with Harper in that workplace, we see her working in a place that might be singingly healthy, and it's also called Leviathan Alpha. So the whole thing that we hear about Harper is oh my gosh, there's the subtle undertones of Harper might be evil. She toes the line she gets pleasure in just doing the absolute wrong thing. The company that they found in Leviathan Alpha. The term Leviathan comes from demonology and it's the demon of all demons, and then it's called Alpha, so it's like the demon of all demons is the name of their organization. In terms of traditionally how we might look at sin or things that are good or bad. Harper is playing into her strengths with what she proposes to do with Auto, where they're going to go out and work with these organizations who may be unethical, but that might be flying too close to the sun for Harper in terms of how she gets things done. So it will be interesting to see what she decides to do if that will feed her need for operating in the gray space, or she'll go in a different direction. I think Harper will excel in any environment where there's not too many constraints and she's able to run things well.
Either way, we will be tuned in for sure to see what continues to happen with Harper. So Choby and tell us where we can stay connected with you. What is your website as well as any social media handles you'd like to share.
Yes, you can stay connected with me on LinkedIn. You can find me by my name. You can also stay connected with me on Instagram at Eureka Underscore Aha Underscore Moments. The name of my organization is called Eureka Coaching and Assessments. I am happy to continue the conversation online, offline or however others may see fit, but enjoyed my time talking with you here today, doctor Joy.
Absolutely, we will be sure to include all of that in our show notes so that people can find you. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Thank you.
I'm so glad Chope was able to join me for this conversation to learn more about her and her work. We should have visited the show at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash industry, and don't forget to text us episodes to two of your girls right now and tell them to check it out. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into this topic or just be in community with other sisters, come on over and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Zaria Taylor and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me for this conversation. We'll be back with our regular episode next Wednesday. Until then, take good care.
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