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Welcome to the Therapy for a Black Girls podcasts, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr joy Hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information, visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. And while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session seventy four of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. Since we spent so much time this week talking about black women athletes, it felt like a great time to share the conversation I had with Natalie Graves all about black women athletes and body image. Natalie is a certified school social worker, licensed Clinical social worker, and certified Alcohol and Drug counselor in Michigan. In her practice, she specializes in athletes, mental health and wellness. She received her master's degree from the University of Chicago School of Social Service Administration and her bachelor's degree from Chicago State University. Natalie is a member of the University of Michigan Social Worker and Sports Association and serves as a guest lecturer for the University of Michigan's School of Social Work. She has also spent time working with the NBA to provide mental wellness presentations for players and participated in their Rookie Transition program, offering information on mental health, self care, and goal setting. Natalie and I discuss some of the common concerns the black women athletes face, how black women's bodies are seen and critiqued in sports, and we discussed body image issues as it relates to athletes, but also to black women generally. If you hear something you enjoy while listening, please be sure to share it with us on social media using the hashtag tv G in Session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Natalie Joy, Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I'm very excited to have you joined us today to talk about black women athletes because I definitely think, you know, we see a lot in the news, we see in a lot in the media, but I think it will be an interesting perspective to kind of hear about some of the struggles and some of the challenges they often have. Because I know you work with a lot of black women athletes, so can you share a little bit about some of the common things that your athletes struggle with. Literally, when we're talking about female athletes, we look at different sports and there are different issues. So, for an example, sports that are judged like swimming, or gymnastics or ice skating, I find that there's more body issues, eating disorders. So I take a lot of interest in addressing that with the athletes that I work with. Obviously, confidence and athletic stress are big issues struggles with performance, But I think one of the things that concerns me greatly with our female athletes is some of the challenges they have as it relates to their physical bodies. There. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because I do think that there are some sports that, like size and build are more important than others. Right, Like, you know, something like gymnastics, you do have to it feels like have a certain type of to v successful ed gymnastics. That's exactly right. When you're looking at sports that you actually dressed less like volleyball, gymnastic, ice skating, with the short outfits, addresses. So you are perceived in that sport to have a certain body type. And what we find is athletes who pursue those sports and don't have the traditional body type of those sports expects athletes to have. Those particular athletes run into a lot of challenges as it relates to self image. Can you say more about that? For sure? A perfect example is an athlete who just physically looks different than the majority of all the other athletes that play in their sport. So if you think about someone like a Serena Williams for an example, she is at the pinnacle, has been at the pinnacle of her sport, multi gold medalists, mall high titles, and championships, but she is really criticized on how she looks physically, not about her achievements on the court, but how she actually looks. And she has been criticized on how she looks, uh, if she's overweight, if she's too muscular, She's been criticized and looking like a man. And if we look at what's going on here, it is directly about how she physically looks and her race, and so she has been met with a lot of body shaming throughout her career, starting when she was about sixteen years old entering the work, and a lot of women can relate to that. It's just with public athletes. We see it, you know, every day, and it's played out very publicly. But a lot of women struggle with how they look, how they perceive themselves, and there's a lot of struggles around the perception of how they think they should look, and it plays a lot on how your self esteem and how you feel about yourself. I'm glad you brought up the race piece, Natalie, because even recently Serena has talked about how she continues to get tested for like for drugs in her system, right, like even more than other people. And you you have to believe, I think that that is connected to race in some ways, you know, like what other reason is there that she's getting tested at the rate at which she is other than race And because she's so that's exactly right. It's one because she's so good, But I think there's also a bias in how she physically looks, so she looked a certain way, so there is a conclusion that she must be doing something that is some drug enhancement or from the steroids are doing something illegal instead of acknowledging the greatness that she has, the abilities that she has, and what we look at other tennis players, and Serena has talked about this, when we look at a player like Maria Sharapova, who is blonde, looks like a model, she spends and she tested positive for drugs, and you compare that to Serena how much she's been tested versus how Maria Sharapola has been tested and one who has been tested positive. You know, you see there from serious discrepancies there and you can't ignore the fact that Serena is black. I'm wondering if there are other ways that you feel like some of these microaggressions show up with athletes. Do you have any thoughts about other things that have kind of popped up that you've may be seen with clients are heard of. Yeah, for sure. A lot of times there's kind of this otherness that goes on if you are the only African American on your team, until you're perceived different even though you're playing the same team as your teammates, and that plays out a lot. We see that with soccer teams, we see that and individual sports I see it a lot in golf, where golf is a predominantly white sport, but when we have black athletes, particularly female athletes, there's a lot of challenges around that. Some of the challenges that some of the young doctor's experience is low self esteem because there's a comparison not feeling confident within their own abilities because they look and feel different. There's a culture around that, and there's an environment that feeds into that, and so we have to really be mindful how we're we're training our girls, and how we're talking to our girls, and how we're talking about our girls so that we can really strengthen them and give them the confidence they need to thrive in sports or in everyday life, whatever that may be, whether it's at a job, at college, in school. Because if we don't have that self worth and that belief, it plays out in a lot of ways in our lives. And how would you suggest we start having some of those conversations like where do you feel like we could be doing a better job at helping girls have better self worth and better self esteem. One of the things that I think really important that as parents and caregivers and family members were very mindful how we speak to and about our children. You know, how many times have you heard something like, girl, take those tans off, they're too tight. That comment right there put negative connotation on that young girl's body. Or when we say things like all these boys looking at you, and if this young girl did something wrong because she's getting attention from the young man. And so those type of comments where we don't mean anything harmful when we say them, but they have a great effect. So I I want us to really be mindful how we talk to our young girls and children. We also have to pay attention to how we talk about ourselves in front of our daughters. You know, when we say, oh, I look so sad as mistress, Oh this topic makes my breast look so big, and we're saying that in front of our daughters. What do our daughters think about themselves when they hear their mothers talk like that. Words are so powerful, and when you're growing up in a home and you're hearing negative comments indirectly and directly, that can only have a negative effect on how you feel about yourself. So if we can be careful and be aware and actually refrain from having those comments in front of our children. It would make a huge difference in how young girls think about themselves. I think another thing is to really surround yourself with people who appreciate you. You know, look at the environment. Is it an environment where is very critical, where you're always being criticized for the way you look, the way you dress, where you wear your hair. You know, is that's the kind of environment that you want to be in? And we also have some look at culturally. Are we creating environments that body shaming is acceptable? So what do I mean by that? So? Are we at work and part of the work activities is to just talk about how someone dresses every day and we make fun of that, or we have comments that are negative about that. And what we're doing is we're saying in our workplace, or in our organizations, or in our school groups or in school classes that talking this way about women is okay. And women contribute to this quite often. A lot of times you think, you know, as men objesting women and being sexist and disrespectful, But as women, we have to look at our behavior too. Are we making negative comments about another woman's body or or a dress she's wearing. Are we saying that with other people and having a discussion about that. We're creating a very toxic environment that says talking about the woman's body is okay to do, so we really need to be careful about that. And I think another thing is revaluing ourselves really not allowing negative thoughts, whether it's stereotypes, direct comments, self doubt, to really inform who we really are, you know, really focusing on the value of who you are and who you believe you are, who you want to be, building yourself up, and really just confronting poor behavior. I was on Facebook the other day and it was a post about someone commenting on someone's body part, and there was a long thread of it and it was so funny and people are just comment on this and that. I was reading this and it happened to be about a mail, but I was reading this and I was thinking, this is so unacceptable. This post is about a physical feature about someone and we're just going to publicly talk negatively about it. And what I posted was, you know, I'm just not into shaming bodies, whether they're men or women. That's just me. And that was my way of just pushing back. So I think we just have to kind of confront and behavior when we see it as well, because it can be very detrimental and it's very toxic. So I'm glad that you said that, Natalie, because I think we saw a lot of this um and I guess it would still be considered body shaming, though not necessarily around a body part, but related to Gabby Douglas and her hair um. When she was in the Olympics, right, like, it felt like there were a lot of like jokes and memes and you know, kind of like rude comments made about her hair. And then you know, years later when she was interviewed, she talked about how hurtful that had been. Absolutely and let's look at that joy. You know, we're talking about twenty twelve and the London Olympics and we're facing history as African Americans, the first black woman to win gold individually end all around competition history lawless on the floor, and the focus was her hair being flipped back with clips in it, I mean, and that has to have been very hurtful for Gabby as she is trying to first off, the only African American on the team, so there's a lot of pressure just to deal with that and to hear all of this criticism about how she is wearing her hair and if that is the thing she needs to be worrying about. And you know, I found that really interesting. And I was sitting by a lot of the criticism what's coming from our own community, and where it was focus was about, you know, how her hair looks, and you know it's unkept and it's unneed and it's unsanitary. So I read something like that and I have to question, like, what is happening within us that, Wow, history is being made. He act the Olympics were worried about how Gabby's hair looks. I was worried about it. She's gonna stick the landing, That's what I was worried about. But you know, it's very interesting and and it's truly sad, and I think we have to really live deeper in some of the self hatreot that we can have in community, in our community particularly, And where do you think some of that comes from? Can you talk more about that? Well, some of it is being uncomfortable with people in different spaces. I think there's a lack of connection within ourselves. And I was reading an article of the other day about how adolescent and teenage girls when they get upset, the first thing they do is attacked their friends physically. You know, you have a big nose, or or that's why you're you're so fat. And what the research was saying is that what happens is instead of dealing with the actual emotions that are happening in that moment, we go on an attack physically because that's the first thing we see. But what's really going on is I'm feeling hurt, you know, I'm hurt that you're not talking to me, or I miss you as a friend, And instead of dealing with those emotions and that and and dealing with being vulnerable and talking about that, we attack person physically. I think also when it relates to athletes on a very public stage, I think it's a lot of racism, and I think people just y into not even realizing that it's sexist and racists and other people of the same communities kind of buy into that thought process. So we really have to be aware of, you know, where are some of these comments and some of the feelings that we are having, where are they coming from, and really need to address that. It definitely sounds like you mentioned before, like the self assessment pizza is really important, but also kind of pushing back and calling other people out, are calling them in when you see other people making comments that are not very healthy or helpful to other people, that's for sure. And you know, I don't I think we really realize the severity of some of the effects of body shaming. Whether it's an athlete or you know, the next person next door. There's a lot of shame, you know, low self esteem and in extreme cases there there are at risk for eating disorders. You know, there are a lot of outcomes as it relates to isolating oneself, not wanting to be social, and when we look at that, you know, that is a real obstacle in your day to day living. If you're if you're not willing to try for that promotion, or you're not willing to speak in a group project where you're not willing to go to that mixer because you know you have in the past felt bad about how you look physically. There's a daily impact that people experience because of the negative effects of talking about how one looks walking around in their body every day. It's very significant, and I don't think we talk about it or we realize it and I appreciate you Joy for really allowing me to talk about it, because it's really serious. When we're talking about our young girls and wanting them to be confident and heard of and wanting them to achieve their goals, it's hard to do that if you don't feel good about yourself. Yeah, I would imagine so, and I would imagine you know, like even more like for you know, your athletes, because they do tend to be so much more visible, you know, like we've talked about Serena and Gabby, but even you know, your high school and college athletes do have some level of visibility you know, typically on their teams. So you're absolutely right, and they feel that pressure and stress too. And a lot of times I do have to do a check in as far as how they're feeling, you know, emotionally as it relates to you know, their way, their body. Uh, there's a lot of pressure in sports, um for young ladies to to have a certain fatique, to weigh a certain amount, you know, to look a certain way. And um, even though there may not be direct pressure sometimes to those athletes, they still feel it because there's a culture in sports around that. And and so you know, when we're talking about thirteen fourteen, you know, fifteen, sixteen years old. It's hard to navigate that space in that way. You know, when we're when we're young, we usually start out is body neutral or body positive. We're not conscious of how we look or anything that might be right or wrong with our bodies. We're just we're just existing. And then when people begin to comment on how we look physically, comment on our our shape or our size, we become aware of our body and this is the time when that negative body image starts to happen, when we start comparing ourselves to others, when we start hearing those comments like you know, if you don't lose the weight, you're not gonna get a date, you know, those kind of things where we work initially thinking about our bodies that way, but then that outside influences affects us and it has a real impact and how we think about ourselves. And then dooy not to mention the media and social media, you know, when we think about how Beyonce's body looks, or how a model looks, or how people put things on on on social media and it's photoshops and our young girls are having these aspirations to look like this when it's not even a real concept, and you know it really it really opened my eyes. This past weekend, I was in Toronto for the Carnival celebration there, and if you're not familiar with Carnival, it's the celebration of the emancipation of Africans enslaved people emancipated. And so they have on the outfit and joy I will tell you, I have never seen anything like this where there were all the body type that had on these any type outfits with the feathers and very little on and I'm saying when I say, the bodies of women that were considered plus size, stretch marks, cell you like rolls, extra skin, and they were out there celebrating the emancipation of African slaves. I had never seen anything in the United States of such pride of women's body. I was all struck. You know, in the States, we are so conditioned to you know, everything less look perfect, and we have to fit this certain body type and we have to lose weight and we have to look like this. And I was over there and I was looking at all these women and they were just regularly looking women like my body in the mirror, which I would be shy to show to anyone, but they were just out there, and it really taught me that, you know, as women, we have this unconscious kind of self shame about how we look if it doesn't fit a certain conception. And I think we see that a lot of the in nine Estates. And and I think that it's really important that we really talk about and emphasized self acceptance. You know, we're so focused on the physical outward look of someone when we're not looking at their abilities and their intellect and their personality and their gifts. And I think it's it's a really miss in our culture today. And and when I was saying that festival, when I was at the parade, you know, it was really an eye opening experience for me to just say, you know, it's okay, it doesn't matter how you look to be who you are. I think we need much more of that here. So how do you suggest we do some of that natally? I mean, given that, you know, our culture is so full of these messages about women's bodies in particular, you know, like, how do we start to break free from some of that? I think that we start with our young girls, for one, UM, to really normalize them as who they are right, UM, to really value them no matter who they are, what they look like, UM, how long their hair is, what color their skin tone is, how their body looks. I think we should just love them the way they are and empower them. I think that's the beginning of that, I think. And then it also seems to really allowing ourselves to be okay with who we are. I mean, there's really no such thing as a perfect body, and when we have that type of construct of an idea, you know, it's a set up for failure. So if we could just be okay with being normal, I think that is a huge concept of you know what. You know, I have a little extra weight, and you know what, I'm still going to wear these shorts because it's hot today, and and that's okay. I think there's too much of criticizing and and we have to call that out and we have to kind of live in our own truth, in our own lives to say I'm not going to buy into that. I'm not going to contribute to it. My goal should not be perfectionist, should be, you know, the best value. So I think changing some of the dialogue, joy is really important and really valuing things more than just the physical cality of of how we look. Got it. I also really like, you know when you said the whole starting with our girls. I'm encouraged that I've seen more of those lists recently. I'm sure you have um of like things to say to a girl besides like that she looks pretty like you know, you can tell them that she is really smarter. I'm really glad that you stuck with that. You know, like all different kinds of compliments you can give to young girls that don't put the focus on their physicality, and just doing that is so impactful in a young girl's life by just saying, you know, you really had a great answer. You know, that was so great. You showed so much courage when you did what you did. You know, looking beyond just how we look is so important. And you know, at the end of the day, our look sadd and and and that is just not the the important things of in life. You know, it really needs to we really need to be focusing on with our girls, you know, encouraging their goals and their aspirations and building up how they feel about themselves as an individual. Not necessarily how they look physically. And that's really important to me when I work with young girls and young women for that matter, is really having them to look at what do they think, what are they feel, and what do they expect? And none of that has anything to do with how they look physically. It's about getting in touch with who they are as an individual. And I think when we do that, we feel better about ourselves internally, and in turn, we feel better about ourselves physically on the outside as well. So what are some of your favorite resources natally? What are your kind of go to books for people who want to learn more or um you know, have more discussions around this topic. I'm actually reading right now a book um Family Joy. There's not a lot to believe it or not, there's not a lot of resources as it relates to UM, the black um female body, and as it relates to athletes, there's not a lot of research out there about it. But there is a book that I found and it's called Recovering the Black Female Body, and it's a book of essays talking about some of the things we talked about today, and it's a collection of essays in theories with the intersection of black fem of bodies and the Western culture. So it's a really interesting and informative read. I would highly recommend that as it relates to this topic today. And I do have some other resources that are just related to, you know, athletes and mental health. I listen to a couple of podcasts I'm really a fan of. One is called UM Sports Psychology Today, and that podcast talks about course psychology as it relates to collegiate athletes and high school athletes, and there's some mental health episodes on this so I'm a big fan of that. I have a couple resources myself and I I have a Pinterest page where I provide a lot of resources for athletes and people who love athletes and they're concerned about maybe mental health or performance challenges. So you could find that on Pinterest under Natalie Grade Athletic Counseling Joy. Just for your listeners, I have a free mental health checklist for athletes. Do you need more information about your athlete you're concerned about maybe some at risk symptoms or behaviors. I have a checklist that you can I can email to you from an athlete in your life. You're an athlete and you you want to know more about mental health as it relates to your sports, I'm happy to send that out to you and always Joy anyone who I know, I always recommend your podcast and then I'm not just saying that, I mean it is like the best thing out here, So I always reference therapi of Black Girls podcasts with those are kind of my top resources that I give to people. Perfect I like that. And what is your website for people who want to be able to get in touch with you or find out more about your services, Natalie Sure, It's Natalie Grades dot com, so you can reach me there. I'm on Facebook. My private practice page is Natalie Grades Athletic Counseling. You could find me there. On Twitter it's Natalie Underscore One. I'm on Instagram Natalie Grad's Athletic Counselor, and you can also email me directly at Natalie Grades LPs W at gmail dot com. Sounds good, and of course we will have all that information in the show notes for people who want to reference it later. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Natalie, I really appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me Joy, It's really great. Absolutely, I'm so thankful Natalie was able to share her expertise with us today. To check out the resources that she shared and to learn more about her practice, visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot Com slash Session seventy four, and please make sure to share your takeaways with us from the episode in your I G stories. Make sure to use the hashtag TVG and session so that we can find them and share them. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to visit the therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot Com slash directory. And if you want to continue this conversation and join a community of other sisters who listen to the podcast, join us over in the Thrive tribe at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash tribe. Make sure you answer the three questions that are asked to gain entry. Thank y'all so much again for joining me this week, and I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take it care. Two