Session 138: Being Introverted vs. Social Anxiety

Published Jan 15, 2020, 8:00 AM

The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.

Today, Janaya Sadler, LCSW joins us to chat about the distinct differences between someone who is introverted vs someone struggling with social anxiety. Janaya and I chatted about the differences between being introverted and social anxiety, how you might know if you’re introverted, how social anxiety impacts people’s lives and what kinds of treatments are used to help those who struggle with social anxiety.

 

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Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session one of the Feed for Black Girl's podcasts. Oftentimes I hear people talking about someone struggling with social anxiety, and it's clear that what they're really talking about is that person being introverted. They're definitely not the same thing, and I wanted to be sure we spent some time chatting about the differences. This week. For this conversation, I was joined by Jenea Sadler. Janeta is a licensed clinical social worker in Raleigh, North Carolina. She's the owner of Urban Healing Counseling, a group psychotherapy office, and founder and co owner of Introverted Girlfriends, a safe space for introverted women to promote and uplift each other. Janette and I chatted about the differences between being introverted and struggling with social anxiety, how you might know if you're introverted, how social anxiety impacts people's lives, and what kinds of treatments are used to help those who struggle with social anxiety. If you hear something that resonates with you while listening, please be sure to share it with us on social media using the hashtag TVG in Session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Jania, Thank you so much for having me today. Dr Joy So I'm happy that you were able to join us because I think what we're gonna get into today is something a lot of people have been confused about. So we're gonna start our conversation talking about the difference between being introverted and struggling with social anxiety, because I think sometimes people think that those are the same thing, and of course they're not. So can you tell me a little bit about what introversion is. Yes, yes, having social anxiety does not mean that you're an introvert and social anxiety and introversion is not the same thing. So let me I'm pat introversion is a characteristic of someone's personality, and social anxiety and more of a mental health condition. Let me define what an introvert is is someone who prefers calm, less stimulating environments. Introverts tend to be drained after socializing and regain their energy by spending time alone. A quote that I've read online and that I really do love it's introversion is your way and social anxiety can get in your way. Mmmmm, I like that quote. I think that does help to explain what that is. Yeah, and there's some common traits that people that are introvert have, and then we can talk about some traits of social anxiety too. And I just want to help other people understand also that this personality traite kind of exists on the spectrum, right. So you often hear people talk about introverted versus extroverted. I mean it's important to note that most of us are a little bit of both of them. Yes, absolutely, and some falls on a different realm of the continuum. So I am on the extreme introvert continuum and some maybe what we call now am Inverton, So that's like in the middle m M got you. Okay, that doesn't mean that introverts don't like people or don't like social situations. Many introverts actually enjoy spending time around others. They just prefer smaller crowds and a more intimate setting so kind of less straining. Mm hmmm. Yeah, And I do think that that's an important distinction. I'm glad you shared that because I think there is often so many there are so many misconceptions about what it means to be introverted, like does that mean you never want to talk to people? Does that mean you know, you don't want to be invited out right? When really it is more about where your energy comes from, and that after spending time and like a large social situation, somebody who is more introverted will probably sometimes to kind of unwind with themselves. Yes, I sometimes feel exhausted at the end of the day, you know, seeing a lot of clients, interact on a lot of people, and I just need a quiet time to reflect, to reach treat because like spend so much energy and social situations. Yeah, and I don't think especially people who maybe are more extroverted. I don't think that people often think about the amount of emotional energy and sometimes takes to kind of be in a group to kind of manage everybody, you know, everybody's stuff and everything that's going on. And so, you know, people who are more introverted do sometimes need at times to kind of just unwine and like take a deep breath and take a step back after kind of interacting with people. Just give me a moment or two, you know, And sometimes too much simulation can just make you feel drained. So are there some kind of tell tale ways for somebody to tell kind of where they fall on the spectrum. Yeah, So, as an introvert, sometimes we tend to enjoy more quiet time, so we spend time reading a good book or retreating to a quiet space and utilizing that time to recharge. So that may be a sign that you are introvert, that you just need downtime. Another sign is that you have a small group of friends, you know, rather than a large extended network. You really do enjoy socializing, but it's just on a smaller scale, more intimate setting. Another telltale sign sometimes is if you do not enjoy small talk, you know, you tend to just get right into the deep discussions of things. That's a good one. I think that most people would not necessarily pay attention to that idea. I have heard less of people talk about the fact that they just don't enjoy small talk. Can you talk about like, what about that makes it difficult for introvert? Yes, I think it's the fluff, the fluff of it, maybe not knowing what to say. I'm always getting around, but I cannot talk about the weather for an hour, you know, so you're gonna get deeper into the conversation. And so I think that it may just be like uncomfortable, you know, or maybe not knowing how we're to start. I find that many introverts, you know, described themselves sometimes that's socially awkward. Not that they have to be socially awkward, but they may feel that way. Sometimes they just don't know how to fit it in, you know, that small talk. Mm hmmm. Yeah. And I think if we think about it in terms of like energy, like we talked about, if I already feel like my energy is going to be low for this social situation, I probably want to conserve it and not use it on small dog. Yeah. Absolutely, great point. Dr Joy. Yeah, and so some of those highlights that you mentioned, I think maybe where some of the confusion comes from in terms of comparing introversion to social anxiety, because you mentioned things like maybe they do feel a little socially awkward or that kind of stuff, and so I think that is sometimes where people think, oh, this means social anxiety, when of course it doesn't. It doesn't, it doesn't at all. And so can you share them more about the distinction between introversion and social anxiety. So we talked a little bit about like what introversion looks like, but can you share more about the social anxiety piece and how you might be able to tell the difference. Oh. Absolutely, it's normal to feel nervous and certain situations. So certain social situations, for example, I'm nervous right now being on your podcast. But in social anxiety disorder, social interactions may cause the intense fear. They may fear that they're gonna embarrass themselves or fear being criticized or judge. So I think that that's the distinction, is that is a fear component when introversion is more of who you are. I mean, I can talk about a little bit of some of the symptoms of social anxiety, which is like very different than personality traits. You know, so one may fear social situations. They may worry about again embarrassing themselves or humiliating themselves. They have an intense fear of phobia of talking to strangers. Other fears may include like not wanting to use public rushrooms and not wanting to eat in front of people, make Tello calls, make an eye contact. So those are some of the cognitive symptoms of anxiety, and some of the physical symptoms can be trembling, sweating, that's heartbeat. So those always that we can define you know exactly, you know what it is. And so someone with social anxiety may start getting anxious before a social interaction, you know that anticipate tory anxiety, and others may spend a lot of time ruminating after the event. They may spend days, months, or even doctor joining some cases years focusing on what went wrong and what mistakes they may have made. It is really hard for them to let go because they feel judged or they feel as if someone will reject them. Another key component of social anxiety is avoidance. You know, we avoid the things that do not feel good to us. And if you have social anxiety, those are social situations and in the long term, if we avoid things, it in turns increase our fear, right. I mean, we often talk about the fact that, you know, the more that you don't approach the thing that you're afraid of, you never actually learned the lesson that it's not as bad as it seems in your head. Yeah. Yeah, And I can take that example of public speaking you know today, if you always avoid it, your fear will never diminish. So sometimes you have to push past your comfort zone and do it um and not hold yourself back. At least that's what I told myself today, you know. And it's even better when you're able to do that in a safe place like a therapy office. M And you mentioned Jania. You know, like most of us are a little anxious probably about like public speaking or going to a party where there's nobody there. We're gonna know, like most people probably feel a little nervous about that. But it sounds like the hallmark where you really want to make sure like you're paying attention to you know, regular everyday kind of shyness or anxiety versus like a social anxiety disorder. It sounds like it's the intensity of the feelings that you're having, yes, yes, the intensity, and also whether or not it is impacting your functioning. So that is key functional impairment. So it's how does it interfere with your life? So if I was to pull your audience, dock the joy and have them right down things that matter most of them in life, I suspect that they will come up with four to five commonalities. In the end, some things on the list would be our work, you know, our career, romance, friendships, and relationships with our family. And you see, with social anxiety, it may affect these areas that are important to us. So let's look at work. Work. It may keep you from finding a job if you're anxious, if you're too shots to even go on an interview because you're fearful. That affects your money, you know. So people are fearful in the phase of going to the interview or even when they have the job. They are frequently calling out to avoid social situations. Maybe on meeting day, you know, every Friday, at one o'clock, you're calling out because you know that's the time that you're gonna be around other people. And it also can stop you from advancing in your career, you know, going to those trainings and conferences. Most jobs for a lot on some type of social capability. Let's examine the romance department. Social anxiety can keep you from dating, you know, finding your significant other if you have the desire to get married and you're fearful of dating. Um, so I see that a lot as well. The other thing is that it may affect your friendships and relationships with your family, so you know, hanging out, going to that concept, you are so fearful of going to social events. So you're so you're so fearful about going to social events that you likely frequently turned down opportunities and invitations because you just get so anxious about going to the event. Yeah. Yeah, And so that's how it can affect those different domains in your life, so you know, making friends, having a relationship with your family, romance, also in work, in your career. Yeah. I think that that's a pretty neat exercise today. I'm glad you shared that because I don't know that I've ever thought about just how it impacts like those different things that are often so important to us, right, like and so if you're struggling with something like social anxiety, it does cut across these domains that typically are very important in our lives. Oh absolutely, Dr Joy, And I find that it is often misdiagnosed and under diagnosos as well. M In what ways can you say more about that? Yeah? Absolutely. Oftentimes I get clients who come into the office and they feel anxious in social situations or it's a new situation, and I'm like, you don't have social anxiety. You are human. You know, we all tend to get anxious in social situations. So I kind of normalize it. And then on the other realm, I have people that may come in with symptoms of depression or had issues with alcohol use. So when we peel back the layers, we can understand um that it's maybe something deeper. So let's examine how this can happen. So, you know, you want friends, you want to engage with others, you want to go out, but social interactions may scare you. That may lead you to avoiding, and avoidance may lead to isolation, and isolation may lead to sadness. It can have a domino effect. And again, as we peel back the layers, we discover that the root cause can be social anxiety and not necessarily the sadness. Another thing that I see common that comes into the room is over indulging in alcohol. You know, the liquid courage is needed to function and social situations, So one glass of wine can turn into a whole bottle and a shot on the side, you know, just so that you can relax and you know, go to that networking of them per se. I'm glad you share that because I know, I mean, of course, we know that anxiety and depression often occurred together, but I don't think we always hear enough about how being anxious can actually lead to the depressive symptoms because of this isolation piece. Oh absolutely, I hear that very often about isolation, loneliness, some sadness, and so I like to peel back the layers to see what it's really going on. Yeah, and I can see how it would be easily missed if you really just focused on the sadness, right, it didn't focus on the fact that what led to some of that is the isolation they did because they felt anxious, Oh absolutely. And I don't get many people coming into office saying that they have social anxiety. So having social anxiety, you are often fearful of judgment, so that may stop you from making that telephone call to go see a therapist, you know, because it is essentially to them like an evaluation, and so we don't get it in the beginning. I guess I want to say that the diagnosis, we get it when something happens, and so when they have those intense feelings of sadness, that is when they may come into the room. And something else that you mentioned that I think is something that I've heard much more often lately, is the anxiety related to like making phone calls. Oh absolutely, Um, that is the case. And it can impact you know, calling a therapist you know. Um. Yeah, And I had to really sit with myself with this one to modify some of the ways that I do things and getting clients in and so they may do online scheduling rather than making a telephone call because they are so fearful down the numbers, you know. Um. And we live in a culture where texting and social media may allow us not to talk verbally with one another as often as we once did. M yeah, So in some ways it does kind of make it easier for you to actually avoid, Like we already talked about the thing that is making you anxious. Yeah, definitely, Yeah, but I think that is important to think about, right, like, just in terms of how we even make our services more accessible, right Like, if they're already struggling with anxiety, yes, of course we don't want you to continue to avoid, but in the interests of actually getting them in for help, we may want to think about different ways that we can make scheduling easier as opposed to like just talking on the phone. Yes, And I've had clients that comment in on that, you know, um, so if we can, yeah, that would be helpful. And this can impete like also go into the medical doctor as well, you know, calling about your bills, you know, calling people in what they perceived to be authority, you know, handling some things that you have to handle. You know, it's just a lot that it may impact, right, right, And again, I think you know, we often hear social anxiety kind of thrown around. I think so you're saying that you hear that people actually miss it a lot, but I think we kind of hear us just very colloquially, right like, oh, I'm socially anxious, kind of thing, and of course they wouldn't necessarily always meet the criteria for that, but I think, you know, paying attention to the multiple ways that this really does impair functioning is important for us to all keep in mind. Yes, And so that brings me to like how it is diagnosed, and we talked about the misdiagnosed and under diagnose, and so sometimes I have climent to help fill out of social anxiety scale, you know, ask some questions, a lot of questions about what their reactions would be in social situations, and then of course the clinical assessment helps us come with that diagnosis. So something else that I wanted to go back in your conversation, you mentioned how this impacts work. And I know last year there was a lot of talk about Summer Walker, and she isn't the only one. I think she may just be the latest one that has kind of been openly sharing about her struggles with social anxiety. And it just seemed like there was a lot of conversation around her struggles with social anxiety that did not seem the same as we saw with like Sia, so the other artists who has also been open about struggling with social anxiety, and like would frequently style her hair so that she wasn't actually making eye contact, or would perform with her back to the crowd, And it just seems like there were some very strong differences to me in the way that we talked about summer struggling versus CIA. Yes, definitely, I think it is can be a cultural thing. Else sometimes it is not understood, and it's that cultural component. I think that there's a lot of misconceptions in our community about what social anxiety is. People often don't realize, you know, what's happening, so they may have the misconception that that person is stuck up or rude or bougie, you know. But yeah, I think that it can impact, you know, work and what took a lot of amount of courage for her to come to terms with that. Mm hmmm. Yeah. And I think the other thing we have to think about is that, you know, much of the conversation was around, well, why would she choose to be in a career like this, right if she struggles with social anxiety. But the truth is that no matter what career you pick, if you struggle with social anxiety, you will struggle, right, you know. So I think we have to be careful and kind of making that kind of an assumption that, oh, because you're struggling this way, maybe this is not the career for you. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So let's talk a little bit of genia about like true eatment. So what does treatment actually look like for somebody struggling with social anxiety? Treatment can look like a couple of different things. And so we can do you know, CBT therapy and that helps you become aware of your negative thinking patterns. Another thing that we do in the room sometimes teach relaxation techniques we discussed and practice breathing. U'se got an imagery, bringing meditation or mindfulness. I may even suggest yoga or other body based interventions, especially if the anxiety is manifesting like somatically or physically. I would suggest that we may also teach social skills. So one reason that someone may be anxious is that they may be socially awkward or not confident in their social skills. And um, if that is the case, we would assess it and we'll teach social skills like effective communication, conflict resolution, empathy, active listening. I like to think about it is if you don't use it, you lose it. And sometimes people with social anxiety don't interact socially because of their avoidance, you know. I mean we live in a culture that you don't really have to interact with other people. Sometimes you do find that job that speaks to your social anxiety and your behind a computer all day, you know. Then we can get our groceries delivered, we can get our food delivered. So we're not engaging, you know, on a one on one basis. So that is why sometimes those social skills may lack. Another one about go to therapies Dr Joy is exposure therapy, and the goal of exposure therapy is to reduce anxiety, reduce the avoidance of the dreaded situation and so um, if they're fearful of let's say speaking, you know, maybe in the office, we'll start with, you know, exercise of just thinking about you know, getting on stage, thinking about going to that conference and being in of those people. You know, so we're just thinking about it, then we may push it a little further, you know. So they're thinking about it, they're preparing for their experience and the feelings that they may feel like when they're on the stage. And then the hopes is is that you know, eventually they may even try it, so it takes time. Um, we suggest that you do these type of therapy with a professional. And is there a reason why you might choose like one modality over the other, Like are there some things that you would want to like rule out before you started, like exposure therapy with someone? Oh? Yes, Um, definitely, we want to rule out any trauma. And so that brings me to like the why you know, why do I have it? We'll come back to that, but yes, that's a great point. Um. So if they have a trauma history, we may rule out exposure therapy because we don't want to read traumatize, or it may take some time to get there. We may start off with some CBD techniques and start off with relaxation so we can and age and exposure and they can be more calmer. Um. So we really kind of meet the client where they are. So let's jump into the way because I feel like we probably should have covered that before. I missed that. Yeah, so you know, and I know that this could be different for everybody, right, Like there's no one reason why anybody develops any kind of illness, right, but what are some of the reasons behind other things that might lead to somebody struggling with social anxiety disorder. Great question, and I get this question a lot because I tend to treat introverts and remember that having social anxiety does not equate to introversion and vice versa. You know, I do have extroverts that have social anxiety too, but you know, we tend to be introspective when we want to know why. My extroverts kind of it is like Janeta, just fix it. They don't want to know the why. They're like, just fix it. But there's no one thing that caused social anxiety. So it can be genetics. You know, if your mama had it, if your grandmama had it, you may have it. It also may be the way that you were rared. So I may have a client that had an anxious mother who had a lot of fears, and because of that reason, she didn't trust people. So you know, the client did not go out often. It kept her secluded and she was not exposed to adequate social situations. So those are some reasons on why. You know, we have a trauma informed practice and so we do trauma assessments because social anxiety can be linked to a history of abuse, bullying, or teasing. I often find that shy kids are also more likely to become socially anxious adults, and so that's why I like to address this issue in children. Sometimes it's more than just shyness, you know, and it also it's prevalent in people who have overbearing and controlling parents. Can you say more about why that is? Yeah, because sometimes they are not allowed I guess I want to say, to be free and know a lot of their behaviors may be restricted and they're not engaging with people. Like I mentioned before. You know, if you have a mom that has anxiety, maybe she's not letting you go out to you know, parties or have sleepovers, or she doesn't have people over because she's fearful of people, or you know, or something traumatic may have happened to her, so that perpetuates maybe um apparent being overbearing and causing a client or the person to not develop those skills needed to be okay in social situations. Very good points. So going back to some of the skills building stuff that you were talking about, Yeah, yeah, So what are some of your favorite resources in there for people who maybe want to learn more about social anxiety or introversion. Yes, yes, and so as you mentioned, it's been in the news a lot lately. Um you see it in Facebook groups. Actually you post a question on World's Introverts Day, and yes, we have a day, and it was a lot of feedback about you know, what you want other people to know about introverts. So I think through like social media, you can get the level of awareness. So that's resources. Susan Kane has a book called Quiet. I also recommend her ted talk on the Powers of Introverts, so it talks more about introverts and social anxiety, and one of my favorite quotes from her is that there is a zero correlation between being the best talker and having the best ideas. Sometimes I use workbooks with clients in the office, so the Anxiety and Phobio workbook talks a lot about social anxiety. Another resource is a website, the Quiet Revolution. There's a lot of blogs and self help tips on being introvert. And another book is Self Compassion by Dr Kristin Neff, because treating yourself more gently and saw their as if you would treat a friend may help you reduce some of the issues that you have with social anxiety. Because people can be so hard on themselves. Yeah, and I'm glad you brought up us because in King's book. I don't know if other therapists have suggested it maybe has come up at a time or two, but it definitely felt very revolutionary I think when she published that book, because I think before then people had not been forced to think about how the world really is not set up for introverts to sometimes be successful, Like the world is just very noisy, it just requires a lot of energy. So I think her book coming out really was revolutionary. Yes, And if you don't have time to read that book, check out that Ted talk, you know. And it's really the way that we socialize is where sometimes in an extroverted world, you know. So she really brought light to that and really brought lights to some of the advantages of being an introvert. And so, you know, some things that she highlighted. And in that book, you know that independent, you know, we're private, we're more inclined to the autonomousts and self sufficient, you know, we're creatives, were deep thinkers. So it's just an excellent book and I definitely would encourage people to read that. And where can people find out more information about you June or your practice, as well as any social media handles you'd like to share. Yes, my practice is Urban Healing Counseling located in Raleigh, North Carolina. You can find us at www dot Urban Healing Counseling dot com and that is the same for us Facebook and Instagram. You can find me Jane and Statler lcs W online and that's my Instagram as well as my website. I am also an Introvert Powerhouse coach at Introvert Powerhouse University with Introverted Girlfriends in which I'm the founder and co owner Perfect And of course all of that will be included in the show notes for anybody who wants to look up with those incredible resources. Well, thank you so much for sharing with us a a day. I really appreciate it. Well, thank you so much for having me, Dr Joy. I'm so glad Ena was able to share her expertise with us today. To find out more information about her and her practice and the resources she shared, check out the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session one. Please remember to share this episode with two people in your circle, and don't forget to share your takeaways with us either on Twitter or in your I G stories using the hashtag tv G in session. If you're searching for a therapist in your area, be sure to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into this topic and meet some other sisters in your area, come on over and join us in the Yellow Couch Collective, where we take a deeper dive into the topics from the podcast and just about everything else. You can join us at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash y c C. Thank you all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.

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