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Hyay, Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session one forty three of the Arapy for Black Girls podcast. In today's session, we're talking all about phobias. And joining us for this conversation is Mandesa Jones man Diesa is a licensed clinical social worker and founder of our Shake Counseling and Coaching LLC, which is a group practice with locations in Chicago, Illinois. She's passionate about helping individuals overcome their fears and live life to the fullest. Mandese and I chatted about what phobias are and how they're different from our everyday fears. Some common misconceptions about phobias, how they impact multiple areas of a person's life, and how phobias are treated. If you hear something that resonates with you while listening, please share with us on social media using the hashtag tb G in session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Man Diesa, Oh, thank you so much for having me. This is such an incredible opportunity. I'm a member of the Therapy for Black Girl's community, and I'm just so grateful for this platform and all that you're doing well. I am grateful for all of you who are members of the community and makes the work so incredibly rewarding. So I'm grateful for you. So I'm happy to have you here to talk with us today about phobias. There are lots of questions typically in the community about anxiety and all of the different ways that anxiety presents, and we have not touched on phobias specifically, so I'm really happy to have you here to talk more about that. Is this is one of your specialty areas, so can you start by just telling us what a phobia is and how it might be different than our like everyday worries and fears. Yeah, I'm just really happy to talk about this topic because actually, before I sat down to this interview, one of the receptionists in my workspace, she was talking about her phobia of dogs and how it has impacted her career. So just to talk about phobias. It's a diagnosable to disorder is a type of anxiety disorder that causes an individual to experience extreme irrational fear about a situation, living, creature, place, or object. The person will experience intense distress when their face with the source of their phobia. It's so funny that you mentioned the reception just with the dog phobia. So I had a pretty intense dog phobia when I was younger. It could not be around dogs, and had never had a bad experience or anything with dogs until one of my friends during our first job together, she had two dogs that I fell in love with, and so that kind of cured me of a phobia, and now I have two dogs of my own. I'm glad you brought that up because I had that on my list to chat with you about, because I think that that is one of the ones that we often see and that it feels like people are very dismissive of it, right, Like it's like, oh, it's not it's just a dog. It's not gonna do anything. My dog is not gonna do anything. Yes, you're right, people are very dismissive. But if this is a diagnosable mental disorder, because for people who have phobias, it really impacts their lives. I have a phobia as well, So I say it's four legged animals, but particularly cats, where I will avoid places where I believe that there is a cat or if I see a cat. And it's very very common in the black community, specifically related to animals. You mean specifically, well, just phobias in general. Got it. So they say they don't know exactly how phobias are CAUs I mean, sometimes we do have experiences where we are, you know, maybe attacked by animal or have had a traumatic experience like in water or something like that. But a lot of times the phobia is genetic and passed through mm. Okay. So it makes sense that if we've seen, like parents are loved ones kind of be struggling with phobias, that it's something that we might struggle with as well. Right, because our parents sometimes will reinforce that phobia. So if you have a parent that's afraid of dogs for whatever reason, you might hear or witness your your parents afraid and therefore you take on that fear yourself. Mm hmmmmm, got it. Okay, So are there things that you feel like are commonly misunderstood about phobia? So we've already touched a little bit about how people sometimes will minimize it, like, oh, that's not a big deal, But are there other things that are commonly misunderstood? Well understanding the difference between a normal fear and a phobia. You know, we all have fears and some anxieties, but a phobia is when we actually rearrange our lives to avoid that phobia. So, for example, you know, we all may feel a little nervous or anxious when we're flying, especially if the weather is bad and there's turbulets. You know, our stomachs may drop and it may be uncomfortable. But a phobia are somewhat the fear of flying. A phobia flying wouldn't go to their best friend's wedding on the island because they're afraid to fly there. So that is the difference, and that people, I think you know, having a phobia myself. People not understanding that we don't want to be afraid and we don't want to avoid these situations, but the fear in our minds outweighs the benefit of going to the wedding or going to someone's house with a cat, or swimming in the ocean, right, M. Yeah, And I think that that's a great example, right because I think if you don't struggle with a phobia, or you know, if you're not really kind of up on like what it means to have a phobia, and you don't understand how this can impact someone's life. So a decision about whether I'm going to travel to a friend's wedding, but I would imagine that even more everyday occurrences may be impacted because of phobias. Can you talk more about maybe some of those things that people might not even recognize that they're doing, because well, one thing is job opportunity. So just using a dog example, We've had gifted my husband with the Peloton bike for Christmas, and they come in and they set that up. One of the women who were setting up the bike before she entered the home asked if there were any pet and of course there we don't have any pets that so she felt comfortable and I thought about her later, I said, well, what does she do? You know she and she just described her her phobia of dogs and and all of that, and I thought about, well, what does she do when she goes to someone's home and that have a pet. And some people are very protective of their pets and feel that their pets are part of the household and do not want to put them up. And so what happens to her and her job opportunity? You know, does she quit? Does she avoid going to work that day? Or if you you know, keeping on the employment. Uh, you know what if you have a fear of elevators or heights and you're offered opportunity in a building, you know, in the office is on the tail floor, and sometimes people will avoid that or not take the job. So it really impacts people, you know, every day, you know, on bisnesses and such as their jobs. But then you know, I think about myself, you know, the fear my daughter's school there was a cat, a little neighborhood cat that the kids were feeding, and I dreaded taking her to school because the cat and everyone would say oh that cat. You know, the cats are not gonna bother you. Um, and I really had to. I had to stand across the street and have someone else walk her in the building because I was terrified. Yeah. So even everyday things like that, like you mentioned that you just might not even think about, but that takes so much of your like emotional energy, and really, I would imagine can it also impact your mood for the rest of the day, right, yes, And just the thought of having to face this, you know, once I realized, like with the cat, that Okay, this cat is gonna be around and they're feeding the cat. Every morning, I woke up with this dread of taking my daughter to school because I'm thinking about this cat. You know, that's the thing about phobia is that it overtakes our thoughts and we're constantly, you know, thinking about it and worrying about it, and like you said, you know, expanding that emotional energy on something that really, when we think about it, is anything that we really shouldn't be afraid of. Mm hmm. I mean, but of course that's the way that anxiety works, right, is that even though if you are not struggling with anxiety, the threat may look like it's not an actual threat, but in your mind it feels very much like a real threat exactly. Yeah. Yeah, And that's the part I think that is often misunderstood. If you're not somebody who has struggled with anxiety in one way or another. It may feel like, oh, just go bring your daughter to school, right, like the cat is not gonna bother you, but in your mind it feels like a very real kind of a risk and a threat situation. Yes, that's from our flight and flight response is that we feel we're in danger and we will have physical symptoms. Well we are experiencing or exposed to that threat of the phobia. You know, we may feel our heart rate elevated, we may sweat, we may you know, have all types of physical symptoms because of it. Mm hmmm. Yeah. And going back to the conversation around how this can impact, you know, just your daily living and employment opportunities, one of the more commonly discussed I think phobias is a gore or phobia, right, so people who have a fear of just leaving their homes, and so you can imagine how that impacts people's ability to kind of just even take care of themselves. Right now. Thankfully, we have like lots of delivery options and you know, all of those things that technology has probably needed year to kind of deal with, but in terms of like employment opportunities and those kinds of things that can be significantly limited by somebody's fear of leaving their home. And that is also you know, and I wonder, you know what these options of delivery. You know, I had something delivered not too long ago, and I was laughing, like anything could be delivered this day of age. But people who are dealing with the gore phobia having that avoidance. When we have these options, we don't have the opportunity to test out what we're afraid of. And I think, you know, thinking about what helps with phobias is to expose yourself to some degree, and with the delivery options, we kind of perpetuate that that fear. Mm hmmm. Yeah, I mean, and I'm glad you mentioned that, and I know we're gonna get into it also. But the idea around anything that makes you anxious, and every time we talked about anxiety on the podcast, y'all have heard me say this or I guests say this, that the key to working through anxiety is to go towards the thing that you're afraid of, right, So, of course, I mean it is kind of like a double edged sword, right. So you know, somebody who might be struggling with a gooraphobia, they may feel less emotionally overwhelmed because so much can be delivered, but in terms of working through their fear, having things delivered may not be the best option, right exactly. Yeah. And our friends and our family will help us if they understand that we are afraid of, for example, afraid of flying, they will help us figure out a way to avoid that to keep us safe because they don't want us to be scared. But sometimes we need, like you said, to go towards that fear, even if it's just a little bit at a time, so we can get used to it and get used to being uncomfortable. M hmm. Yeah. And I think that that's the key, right man, D say, is that we're not wanting you to hear us say like, oh, go full force towards the thing. Right. It is incremental, you know, so when we talk about like anxiety, hierarchies and those kinds of things, we're not saying like, Okay, if I'm afraid of cats. I didn't adopt podcasts into my house. It's mean, you know, passing by a window where Caddy is or you know something like that. Um so that you gradually kind of build up to becoming more okay with your discovered right. Yeah, and that's exposure therapy, which is the most effective way to treat phobias is to focus on it on small, gradual changes and exposures to that fear. Can you walk us through what that might look like me and diesus. So let's take the example of somebody who is afraid to fly. Right, what might like an exposure therapy type of treatment look like for somebody who's struggling with that. Well, first, I always recommend to first do it in your mind and then to try it into the real world. So, if you did do it in your mind and have that image, just picture yourself and set your goal of what you would want this to look like like after your treatment. What do you want to be able to do. And so you said a fear of flying, right, maybe that would be traveling across the globe, maybe going to Europe where it's a you know, twelve hour flight. That might be your end goal. And so to visualize yourself in the steps it will take to get there. That would be the first thing. Then the second thing it would be the actual exposure therapy as you mentioned, the hierarchy and listening out from you know, at least eight to ten steps to get you to that final goal. So if your final goal is to get on a plane and to go to Italy, then that would be the most feared object of that scenario, and so what steps will it take to get you there? So working from the most feared and starting smaller, so it might be just reading about airplanes, right or reading about people who fly, and then the next step would be maybe you know, going to an air for it and just watching the planes take off, you know, just you know, small incremental steps to get you too to that final goal. N decent. I'm not sure because this is not an area of practice that I specialize in. But are there um like airports and things that will work with therapists and their clients on some of this, like in vivo exposure therapy, so like, because I know a lot of therapists will like go with their client to an airport and let's practice sitting on the plane and that kind of thing or their special airports that like participating that, Like how would you say something like that up? You know, you know what, I'm not sure I haven't heard of anything because of the security of airpist that it might not be as easy as if we were like working for someone who's afraid of snakes and you know, working with the you know, local pet store that will help someone with that fear. But I'm sure you know that they're you know, maybe the therapists would be interested in and because if you want, one of the steps will be maybe just going to a gate, so maybe the therapists can write the airline. I'm sure there's something that we were used pretty resourceful, Yeah, I mean, and I would imagine like more regional airports, right or people who have private planes, like you might be able to set up something with somebody who has a private plane. And I've also heard, though I've not used, people having really good results with like virtual reality kinds of things. Have you used any of that in your practice, like you took it right out of my bath thing that the virtual reality that is a big, big area that there's some organizations here in Chicago that used those VR like those occulusts where I don't know, have you ever used one of those things just for fun? Yes, I haven't. It is a very trippy experience, like it really feels like you I don't think I've done a flight one. I can't remember exactly what the setting was, but you feel like you're in the experience. Yes, So that's an option for people as well. M m m m. Yeah. And I think you know, the whole idea around exposure therapy, right, is that we just want to mimic as closely as possible what the real experience feels like. And so even though the VR experience might not be exactly the same, it can bring up enough of the emotion where you and the therapists can work on like, Okay, how do we practice breathing in this moment when it feels like your heart is raising and those kinds of things. And that's another point of using those relaxation techniques because sometimes, you know, depending on how severe the phobia is, we may experience panic symptoms just thinking about it or just seeing a picture of our trigger. And so to learn, like you said, when you're in that situation, because you will have, you know, some setbacks. So you will feel that fear creeping up, you know, even if you work through the exposure therapy, And what do you do when you feel that fear? And that's first to recognize when it comes, because you know, we all feel fear and anxiety differently. So to know that are like, Okay, you know, I'm feeling a little nervous, I'm feeling a little anxious. And what to do such as breathing techniques and mindful techniques and grounding techniques to help you center yourself. And so how does the exposure therapy work man decent? Because I would imagine it is first kind of coming up with this hierarchy, right, so the thing that you're at least afraid of related to the situation versus the thing you're most afraid of. And then at each step or you maybe visualizing and then accompanying that with some of these skills like the breathing and the mindfulness to kind of help manage the emotions with every step of the hierarchy. That's exactly it. Okay, you do the hierarchy and you imagine each step. It's important also to have a support partner if you know, unfortunately you know, therapist we're not available twenty four seven. But you want to have someone that you can also work do these things with. And you know, if you know, using the flying example, someone that can also go with you when you already make that flight. M mmmmm. And would the support person kind of be a part of the therapy also or would you kind of be talking to the client about how to talk to the support person about supporting them. You know what, it would be helpful if that support person could come in on a session just to give some tips on how to support the personal what the phobia, what to do, what not to do, and explain the process of what that person would need. M got it, okay? And so you know, the flight phobia again, like we talked about, like there are ways people can avoid it, but you know, depending on what you do for work and whether you want to travel and you know, vacations and stuff like that, it might be something difficult. But if we think about something that is more easily avoided, right, so maybe like the cat or dog phobia, right, Like you can easy enough probably arrange your life to not have to deal with any pits. So what would be like the reason somebody might want to come in for treatment for something that they could very easily avoid. Well, you know, I mean, and that depends on how you want to live your life. You know, some things we may not ever know that we're afraid of, right and then you know, I'm in Chicago and I may not come into you know, contact with a lion or something like that, right, And so that's one thing to think about. But if it's something that you may come into contact with and that you realize that this is a fear, you want to address that. Even if it doesn't affect your day to day life, this is something to consider because you may want to travel, you may want to experience something later on in light. Yeah, and kind of going back to your earlier comment about how so much of this can kind of be passed on to our kids. Um, so that's something I think about two with my little ones, right leg about how do I manage my ownings so that I don't like model for them being anxious of things that you know they want to do, Like I don't know how to swim, but they are like water babies, right, and so you know, trying to manage my own anxiety about them swimming because I knew it's a skill that will be important for them to have, and they're watching you. They're they're watching you. And even if you do have a phobia and watching how you handle it. You know, my daughter does recognize that, you know that I do have this fear, and she, of course she's not thinking therapeutically, oh just get all rich. She does want a dog and evention, I am working through that to get a dog. And I think that's also important to show that, hey, yes, the spear did show up for me, and this is something that I've experienced. But then you could also see how I overcome that. Mm hmmm. Yeah. So it's okay to model anxiety because they will be anxious about things and they're life too, but also really good to model how we can overcome anxiety and overcome other challenges. Yes, yeah, yeah, are there are some other pretty common phobias that people might struggle with, as you kind of see a lot like in your practice or in your work. Yeah. So some of the most common ones would be the cost of phobia, just being restricted from confined space nets. The aerophobia, which is the fear of flying. Arachnophobia is very common, and it's interesting because I think I read a fact that we're always at least five feet away from a spider. What yes, Like I'm looking around now, like where is it that we're we're always at least five feet away from a spider? So tight this is are pretty hard to avoid. Also, seeing as we get older, there's a lot of people with driving phobias, you know, just the fear of driving and not that there was anything particularly that happened to them, like an accident, you know, and it could be when we hear about accidents, so see accidents that gets to to our subconscious. So there's fears of that. And then what other common fear that I'm you know, worked with a lot of my clients with is the blood injury and injection phobia. Have you heard of that? What is that? So just it's more than just fear of needles, you know, having that fear of needles is one thing, but then there's this fear of being injected by the needle and being affected with maybe an affection such as HIV oh okay, okay, yeah, And I would imagine that that is similar to the driving thing. When you talked about like us, you know, I think social media and things have just made it so much easier to share stories, right, So some of this probably was always going on, but we didn't hear about it as easily. And now that we hear and see more of these stories, it is becoming a part of like what's happening in our subconscious, you know. And I and I see this a lot of blood injury and injection phobia a lot with healthcare workers. Um, that's you know, one way that that can impact their everyday existence. So what happens if they are nurses or they you know, just hospital employees and they you know, as a hospital employ you you do have to get shots and and things like that, the flu shot when you work in the hospital. And how can that impact your employment? Mm hmmmmm yeah. Yeah. So there feels like are some kind of specific types of phobias that are much more specifically related to like certain jobs and careers that we might have. Yeah, and then there's the aquaphobia m m water m hmmm. Yeah. So one of the interesting ones. So this kind of came up around um, and I'm sure that you've seen this is this is your work. When the newest iPhone was released and it has those three circles and people who struggle with is it tripped to phobia? You know what, I don't know the exact name of that. Yeah, I heard a little bit about this. So is this the fear of waiting for the response? No? I think it is something about like the way it is designed, right, So, like the three circles somehow just feels very distressing for people. And you see it also with like other designs, right, Like you would just see these random images and people talk about like how these activates their trip to phobia. I think that's the name of it. I may be wrong about that, but you know, it's it's just interesting how different things, you know, kind of come up like that. And I would imagine, you know, as technology continues to advance, there will be additional things that we develop phobias too, And that could go two ways. Because one technology, like you said, as friends new, so we become fearful of things that we weren't even aware of, right, and so so technology in that way can help perpetuate phobias. But then also the technology itself can can perpetuate phobias or costs phobias. So it's interesting to see down the line how much technology will impact phobias. M. I mean, and we've already talked about how it can help, right, like just using something like a virtual reality. But of course the other side of that is that it also me introduce additional things for us to help phobias about. Yes, yeah, So what are some of your favorite resources me and DECA for anybody who may want to learn more or who might need some additional support around phobias. So there's this excellent book that I use. M's called the Anxiety and Phobia work Book. So you can find this. It's published by New Harbinger and it's a self health work book, but I worked with it with my clients. You can get this on Amazon. It's very very informative about a describing phobious what you can do about phobias. One of my clients that has a phobia that we're working through it and she just really gets a lot from the information and learned exactly about anxiety and phobias and you know, how do they start and you know with it being hereditary and things like that, and she really sees herself in that. So that's also a good resource. Of course, reaching out to a psychotherapist in your area that specializes and anxiety and phobias is also another great option. Mm hmm. Yeah, And I'm glad you mentioned that right because you know, like you heard me say earlier, anxiety treatment is not a specialty area for me. And so you know, it is important that you find therapists who like specialized in these kinds of things, because you've already heard of talk about exposure therapy kind of being the gold standard in terms of working through things like phobias, and so if you go to a therapist who is not trained in how did you expose your therapy, it might either be more harmful or at the very least, it really won't be effective. Exactly because I tried to go to a therapist when we were going to a friend's wedding in Jamaica, and I read on the trip advisor reviews that it was a lot of cats on the end, and you know, so I did seek out therapy and the person that you know that I went to was just not very effective in helping me. We did not do and I brought this stuff up because I was aware of it, but you know, we didn't do exposure therapy. We did some guided imagery, but that wasn't you know, very helpful and I really needed to get out there and really work through this fear. Um. So yes, So finding someone that is comfortable and is knowledgeable about exposure therapy and knowledgeable about PHOBIAUS and anxiety is very important because there's also some land mines in that because if you really want to, you know, stay away from flooding, and that is where we just like you said about the cats. You know, walking into a room with ten cats that can set you back um with your fear and make it even worse. So you want to have someone that is knowledgeable about this. Yeah, very good pointment needs something glad as you shared that. So where can people find you online? What's your website as well as any social media handles you'd like to share? Okay, So I do own group practice here in Chicago, and our website is I Shame A s H E c C dot com. And then you can find me on Instagram or Facebook. So it's under m J. Jones. That's what my handle is on Instagram. That's what I like to use the most. I love followers and welcome followers, and we're at I Shake Counseling on Instagram. So it's all one word, so that's a s H E counselors c O U N s E l I n G perfect. And of course we will have all of that in the show notes and the Anxiety in Phobia work book will also be linked in our show notes in case anybody wants to grab a copy of that. Well, thank you so much, man, I appreciate you sharing with us today. Thank you so much for having me. This is so much fun. I love it, I love it. Thank you. I'm so glad Man Diese was able to share her expertise with us today. To learn more about her and her practice and to check out the resources she shared, be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session one, and please remember to share this episode with two people in your circle, and don't forget to share your takeaways with us either on Twitter or in your I G stories using the hashtag tb G in session. In case you missed it, last week, I dropped a bonus episode of the podcast featuring my conversation with Dr Key Hallman discussing sisterhood in business. It was the first part of a three part series I'm doing with the support of Fiser as we count down to the Black Enterprise Women of Power Summit. Part two of the series drops this Friday, so be sure to be on the lookout for that one as well. If you're searching for a therapist in your area, be sure to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slack directory. And if you want to continue digging into this topic and meet some other sisters in your area, come on over and join us in the Yellow Couch Collective, where we take a deeper dive into the topics from the podcast and just about everything else. You can join us at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash y c C. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take it care,