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If you're looking for an upgrade to the way you sleep, I'd encourage you to check out Helix for a mattress shift straight to your door with free no contact delivery, completely free returns and a one night sleep trial. And just for y'all, Helix is offering up to two hundred dollars off all mattress orders and two free pillows at Helix Sleep dot com slash Therapy for Black Girls. Just go to Helix Sleep dot com slash Therapy for Black Girls, take their two minute sleep quiz and they'll match you to a customize mattress that will give you the best sleep of your life. Now let's get into the show. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session one sixty nine of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. We know that our experiences of sexuality are as varied as we are, and wanted to spend some time today digging into what it means to affirm your identity as a queer person. For this conversation, I was joined by Michelle Williams. Michelle is a Fellow's avir Right, earning her bachelor's in psychology as Zavia University of a Look, Indiana and her Masters and Counseling Psychology at the Chicago School of Professional Psychology. She's a licensed professional counselor in Washington, d C. She has had experience serving and settings such as the prison system, public and charter elementary and middle schools, and universities, all before founding Therapy to a T, where she combined trauma informed care, mindfulness, and advocacy for those that have marginalized identities. She's passionate about making mental health services safe and accessible to individuals and couples within the lgbt Q plus and disabled community, and has launched a therapy fund to help subsidize the cost of care and supporting resources for clients interested in receiving services. At her practice, she also co facilitates the Healing Circle, a trauma informed grief group that promotes healing via mind, body communication, mindfulness, and community building. Michelle and I chatted about what it looks like to explore your sexuality, some of the challenges queer Black women experience in relationships, and how to find or cultivate spaces that are affirming of your identity. If there's something that resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media using the hashtag TBG in session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining me today, Michelle, Thank you for having me. I'm so excited, always happy to have a fellow Xavier right with us in the guest chair. So I'm excited you're here. Yes, So can you tell us a little bit about your practice, Michelle, So you specialize in working with queer individuals and couples. Can you tell us a little bit how you got into that. Yes. What really catapulted me into this practice was I was working in diversity and inclusion at a university in and I was an advisor of some of the student organizations. Their needs were overlapping, but they weren't able to access like mental health care in a way that was like accessible, and that was going to help them navigate their graduate programs, and I was like, what a niche. So I was like, well, maybe I should go into, you know, working at a university setting. But I didn't want to be limited to the university setting just because of funding and things like that. I really was kind of over the whole higher ed setting. And so my therapist actually encouraged me to open my own practice and I was floored, like, wow, you think I don't want practice? So I started marketing to initially graduate students who had like a queer identity, who were individuals and couples, and it just grew from there, like, they give me the referrals, and it's been really fruitful so far. Yeah, it sounds very needed, and I love that that. It is how a lot of successful practices kind of start, right, is that you see the need and then you work to try to feel it. So a question that often comes up in our community is people who are kind of questioning their sexual identity or gender identity and not being sure like where do you even start? So we know that we don't always get a lot of information about this from school or from loved ones, and so people I think are often very confused about like how do I even know? So, do you have some suggestions about how you might even start that conversation with yourself? Yes, that's actually a really good question. So for people who might be questioning or even questioning, if they're questioning, I would encourage them to examine their like close intimate connections that they already have and also the ones that they're yearning for. A lot of people find themselves like, Oh, I just really want to be in the company of this type of person or I'm yearning for this type of connection, but they feel limited on like how to pursue that or what it might mean for them. So I would encourage them to think about, like, you know, what kind of communities are you craving, what kind of connections are you craving? And if you feel any personal judgment around yourself around that, that might be a really great place to start, Like when might you know that working with a therapist to help you explore this might be helpful if you are like questioning, like if your identity or your sexuality and it's distrusting to you, or you feel like you don't have anyone to process this way, or you don't know where to start or you've had experiences you want to go about it in the like, I guess, like the safest way or the most productive way. I would encourage them to reach out to a therapist just so they can kind of get to know, like what are their needs, where are they trying to accomplish, what relationships do they already have that might be safe or unsafe, so that they can practice navigating their identity in places that's going to be encouraging them forward. I appreciate that you share the spectrum of why you might reach out for a therapist, right because again, I think a common misconception is that you only go to a therapist in crisis. But I appreciate you that you share that if you don't feel like you have other people in your life that you can talk about this with, a therapist might be a good place to start. YEA. So how might you identify a therapist who is going to be a good fit for you, especially to talk about some queer issues. Yes, So, actually, as I was thinking about this, I realized that my clients really taught me how to find how what type of questions to ask, And so the first is just to look for a therapist that like outwardly names that they are queer firming in their bios or their website. That's a really great place to start. But in that initial phone conversation, if they do offer like a free phone concertation or like a free first visit, so really ax them about their politics and their frameworks. You know, have they treated anybody who has a queer identity before, Like what's their mindset or approach towards pharing for queer people? If they have, if they employ anybody that's queer, do they have any queer identities? Those are like some great places to start. And then also what really might help move the conversation a little bit further is asking the perspective therapist, like if they're trauma informed, because a lot of the trauma informed theories and modalities really helped set the therapist for success to be able to care for somebody who does have a queer identity. Can you say a little bit more about what trauma informed means? Yes, So, trauma informed care really lends itself to the way you engage with a person. It really takes away from like demonizing any part of you, any thought of you, any experience of you. It really is an integrative whole body in my experience and approach to therapy, And so it kind of has the framework where anything that we could have experienced could be trauma doesn't have to be anything big. And like, how do we use language, tone, the relationship, the setting to care for the person as a whole. Got it? Okay? And I want to go back a little bit because something you mentioned about like wanting to make sure that the therapist is queer affirmative, right, and I feel like that is only recently has the field really moves towards the language that stresses affirmative as opposed to supportive or tolerant, because we know that that is not enough, right, yes, yes, yes, the supportive and the tolerant. It really kind of stops right when you are a queer affirming. What it means is that you have taken the time to invest in that community, learn about the language that's specific to that community, that's going to be supportive, that's going to encourage them and empower them, that's specific to them. So it's really important that the queer affirming part is really uh kind of like named and in the front. Mm hmmmmm. Got it. So something else that comes up quite often for members of our community is reconciling faith and religious practices with a queer identity. And so that seems to be a place where a lot of people are struggling. Can talk a little bit about, you know, maybe how you've worked with clients or some things for people to kind of keep in mind if that is something they're struggling with. Yes, this is a really big one. So with people who are navigating their faith and their identity, sometimes they stray away from their faith or they feel like both of them can't exist in the same place, and so I would encourage them to really examine who they are and what their connection is to their faith practice. And again, it's going to be so important to have safe people around them, people who they can ask questions and explore with, because a lot of the barrier is not even feeling comfortable even exploring these questions that they may have. And so there are actually some therapists, which I think is a huge beautiful niche that are faith based, like trained, specialized and also queer firming, so that they can have really in depth discussions about like faith, maybe texts, maybe literature. But if they are navigating that particular question. I would encourage them to read, to find safe people that they can ask these questions with, and to engage in their identity in a way that is curious but also really compassionate, and to focus their relationship with like their higher power so that they can take, you know, I guess, like glean from the practice what's helpful and not harmful for them, so that they can move forward in a way that might feel a little bit more meaningful. Mm hmmm. Yeah. And I have also been encouraged to see now I know that this doesn't exist on a huge scale, but I have been encouraged to see either new faith practices being developed or like separate congregations being developed, so that the space already feels affirming, right, so that you don't even have to question, like am I gonna be looked at weird here? Or is this gonna be a space where people are gonna demonize me and who I love? Yes, And there's a lot of like ministers or religious leaders that are decolonizing the faith that they are working within. And I think that that's amazing because it really is a decolonization around like the religion and how it may be against or speak down on queer identities and sexuality. M yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. Do you know of any resources off hand, like for people who might be looking for like different congregations like that. Do you know of any like centralized resource. Oh, my goodness, not a centralized resource. But just this weekend I started a healing circle for grief. One of the members is a de colonized minister, and so actually I've jumped at the chance to grab their information so that I could share it. But I'll definitely send you the resource so the community can have it available to them. Oh. Perfect, We'll include that in the show notes. Then after we wrap up. Perfect. So, can you talk a little bit about some of the maybe relationship dynamics that may be specific to queer relationships that you work with in your practice. Yes. So, one of the relationship dynamics that is pretty prevalent and challenging to navigate is the heteronormativity. It's everywhere, It's in the movies, it's in songs, and so when people are in queer relationships, and I want to clarify, like a queer relationship can be defined as anything that does not fall within like the hetero normative expectation. So it's a really really broad way to describe the relationships. But anything that's not heteronormative, like male female, straight monogamous, it can be defined as a queer relationship. After that, the hetero normativity is a barrier in the relationship sometimes because it is you know, how do we show up? What's our role? How do I find meaning? You know, what do I think my worth is in this relationship? How do I show up to society? What do I think I need to do versus what I need to do or what I want to do in this relationship. That's a really really big one. It's just like how do we share the gender roles? And if they do a spouse to us, how do we reconcile them without feeling like we are buying into some type of patriarchal system. Yeah, and I would imagine that that is so difficult. I mean because so much of what we like see in TV and reading news and those kinds of things is heteronormative, right, And so if that's the only model you have about what a relationship looks like, then it may be really difficult to figure out, Like, well, how can I deconstruct that and make my own idea of what a relationship is, right, I mean down to like, you know, how are we splitting up the bills? How are we caring for that household? You know, like who's treating for dinner? And you know, like what are these conversations look like? Who should be leading in certain types of activities? All of those things that I guess are seemingly innocuous, which I really would encourage people who are in sins hetero normative relationships to consider. It's just like, you know, what do these different roles mean to me? And how do I want to show up? Yeah? That sounds like something for everybody to explore. Yeah, yeah, So I'm also curious, and again this has come up all out in the community, is how do you deal with the relationship if you are maybe in a relationship or interested in a partner who might not be out, Like, how do you navigate that? Yeah? So that's a really, really, really good question when you are even thinking about answering in a relationship and this person may or may not be out. You know, as we know, people may not be out for a lot of different reasons, and namely most of those are safety and so we really have to be having open and honest and transparent conversations around like do we have a game plan for how do we access safety? What does being out mean for me? What would my partner coming out? What would that mean for us? And like how does that How do I get to show up in the world if you're not out, Like having those explicit conversations and being able to hold space for your partner if they're not out but they have a plan or they want to be out in safety is a barrier. And then being honest about your limitations, like if you want to be like out and open and on so media and doing these outward facing things, but your partner is not ready to yet, you have to be honest about like what your limits are and what your needs are. And maybe you all may not be a good fit at that moment, or maybe it is a matter of okay, Like how do I navigate my personal needs for the greater needs of this relationship if it means that my partner is going to be saved? Mm hmmm, yeah, And I think backing up a little bit, you know, we already talked briefly about like how do you even begin to explore queer identity. But even after, like there is the exploration phase if you do decide to come out, what is that process even, like and we know sometimes people are out in certain circumstances and not in others. So what are some of the things to even think about if you're thinking about having to come out? Yeah, so the coming out process is often continual, and I think that that's something important to highlight. So, like you may come out to your friends, but if you have a new set of friends or old friends, work friends, you have to consistently like come out to these people that you're meeting. If it's family and people maybe are like distant family members or maybe they're not accepting, then it's like the process of them coming to face to face with your identity is a new coming out process all over again. So just to think about that that it's an ongoing process. You you're kind of like constantly coming out and that's kind of you know, that's exhausting for some people, that's daunt think for some people. And so when you think about that, like what the coming out processes of just naming like hey I'm queer, or hey I'm Leslie and I'm bisexual, I'm paying sexual, I'm trans, whatever those things are that you are experiencing, you gotta think about, like what do I know about this person who I'm trying to share this with or who I want to share this with? What do I know about their ideals or values? Again, this comes back to safety, And I say safety a lot, but it comes back to like how has this person handled like personal matters before? And also I would say, like, you know, if you don't want to, I don't think you necessarily like have to write like I think it's amount a matter of privilege because that's the very personal pieces. Yeah, And even as you're talking, Michelle, I'm thinking, you know, because even this idea of like having to come out right, like, we don't have that expectation for since hetero normative people, right, and so there you just show up at the company picnic with your partner, right, So there is not this this expectation that there's all this work that has to be done. But to your point related to safety, we do know why that can't always be as easy. But I'm wondering if there is even some conversation around how we can begin to even deconstruct that whole process. Of like having to come out. Yes, you know, I think that the conversation. Of course, like people who are like queer and trans, we have to come and face to face with this every single day. But for people who aren't, like the allies, the people who are sins hetero normative and monogamous relationships, how are they creating that space for like us to come in so you know, making sure that they're leading a conversation with like gender pronouns, you know, making sure that they are having inclusive conversations about non federal normative you know, like type of relationships so that the person who is queer doesn't have to be the one to break the ice or test the waters and see if it's safe or not. Mm yeah, So very much like when we are having these conversations around racial justice, right, how we are asking people who want to support us as black people around them having to do some of the work. It's the same expectation for those of us who do not identify as queer. Absolutely, it would be so helpful to just walk into a space and you know, someone comes up and they addressed like, hey, you know, like this is my name, these are my pronouns, this is the type of relationship I'm in, so that that conversation has already started and it's not so much news when someone else comes up and they're like, hey, this is my name, these are my pronouns. They them and you know this type of relationship I'm in, And that's the first time that we're even having to think about our relationship type. And m m hmmm. Yeah. And something that is such a small gesture I think goes a very long way because it is not putting the burden on the queer person. So something else that again comes up in the community last. So this is why I'm so glad you were able to talk with us today because there have been lots of questions about people who are exploring a queer identity and just not quite sure where to start. So something else that has come up is people may be wanting to like date a same sex person or being open to maybe having an intimate experience with somebody and feeling really nervous and not sure where to start. So what suggestions would you have for that? Yeah, you know, I think that well, but right, the dating apps are really a great place to start to build community, get curious and connect with people. And start having those conversations. I think at the dating naps are are fun for that in light of COVID. But I know that once we get through this and past this, there are certain spaces in different cities where you know, like they have like day parties, Like I know in Chicago there's this collective called Party Noir and they have day parties for like queer people, and it's just a really good time for you to just go and just you know, see meet people, look around, see what the scene is like, see if you can make any friends. And then you know, also that's a great place to know that, Okay, the majority of people here are probably queer questioning, so this is a safe space for me to kind of fill it out, maybe even try to flirt or meet somebody, make a new friend. And in the meantime, right before we are able to gather safely, do you know of online communities are resources that are helpful, particularly for queer black women to gather and like do some exploration and be in community with one another. Yes, so I'm not paid by a part now air, but they they have transitioned their platform to a digit the platform and have been having events pretty regularly being room and all these other platforms where they are you know, like building community where you can have conversations and talk about like self care and connect with the community, talk about identities, even do something like dance stuff and just really have a really good time. And they have a lot of events. So that's a really great place, especially if you are a black queer woman. That's a really great place this in the digital space to kind of like you know, like get out there and meet people, find your community and start having those conversations. And then outside of that, what some of my clients and I have really found helpful is following some of the hashtags that queer black women were using like their posts and so there's like this instagram called me and Somebody's queer can And actually that's like a beautiful place to just kind of like one, fill your feet up with affirming images, but also to build community. They often have like questions in their captions that in another page that's called mrs and mrs and mars and us and they do the same type of thing online. So those are three places that you can really get started and start building community around there. Yeah, I appreciate that, she said, filling your feed with like going back to that word affirming, right, because I think when you are kind of especially if you're in the early stages of exploring and not feeling quite sure, it can be really helpful to kind of see people who are, you know, affirming their lives and kind of existing in the world as who you think that you are as well, so that it makes it feel a little bit easier for you to kind of step into your truth as well. Yes, so that you don't feel isolated or alone. Yeah, And I think some of that goes to like really making sure that you have to kind of unlearned some of the maybe internalized homophobia and stuff that you have picked up just because we live in they had a real normative world. Like you said, are there some things that you think people should be thinking about just in terms of un learning some of that. Yes, And that's really the biggest part of all of this. A lot of us do have like the internalized homophobia, biphobia, transphobia, and it's everywhere, and so to begin to start to address that, it would be really helpful to just be honest about where it is, like where does it exist for us, like and really be honest around like, Okay, well this is how I feel, this is some of the language I've been using. These are some of the people I've been hanging around, the kind of conversations I've been having, and this is biphobic and naming it without the shame and without the judgment, because you know, when you know better, you do better. And there we're in a place of knowing and having more information. So one just starting to be really honest about like, Okay, what parts of me or what parts of conversations in my participating in that have been influenced by those phobias, And then how can I begin to educate myself and surround myself with people who are doing the work so that I can be constantly learning and replacing that harmful language and those limiting beliefs with some that are more they're paying a fuller picture, that are more clues to better safer, so that we can one just like start with us, but also like educate others, check ourselves and become more open to those opportunities, because a lot of barriers to even pursuing your identity or your sexuality is that internalized phobias and how we feel, how we may have judged or dismissed someone else for the same identity. Then now we find ourselves exploring or being curious about and feeling like we might not have even the right to explore it because of those ideas that we previously had. Mm hmmm. Yeah. And is there any one place in particular that you feel like a lots of people get stuck when they're trying to unlearn some of this. Yes, I think that a lot of people get stuck at the biphobia m m M. Can you say more about that? Yeah, So, and this is for people who are like federal normative, and also people who are like maybe just lesbians are just gay, Like, the bi phobia is a place that people really get stuck because there's so much negative stigma about what it means for someone to be bisexual. M And there's just so much, just so many harmful narratives about promiscuity and decisiveness and selfishness that it is, and it's still to this day, even while information is still so pervasive, that it's hard for people to like shed those ideas and beliefs around people who might identify bisexual. And so a lot of people don't they don't even name it because they don't want to have to defend themselves and that, you know, like defend that part of their sexuality. And some people are scared to explore their sexuality excuse me, or their identity because of how biphobia is really just like pervasive. I think that that's a really big one. M m m mmm. So any suggestions for somebody who might find themselves there. Yeah, So when you think about the bi phobia, along with the other phobias, but especially the biphobia, really think about like what where did this come from? Like getting curious about like where did this information come from? And how have I engaged with it, maybe even passively or actively and really putting yourself in those shoes. So if I was bisexual, what would this mean for me? Like would this be true? Am I proriscuous? Like, No, I'm not promiscuous? Maybe I just have like an interest or an attraction in different ways, And of course there's a lot of different ways that you can even be attracted to somebody. So really just for once, you know, putting yourself in the shoe of those people and really think about like, Okay, these are the negative stigmas that have been attached to this, But where is this coming from? How harmful has it been? And would it be true for me if I was standing right there in those shoes. That's a really helpful place to start. And I do think that once people start to explore, or even be open to exploring their identity, they'll realize like, oh, I really just mothered this these group of people, when if it was me, I would want to be nuanced if I am promiscuous or and I really hate the word promiscuous, you know, but if I am out here doing whatever I'm doing and being really sexually liberated, then would that make me so bad? Like? Why do I think that this is such a bad label? And who am I hanging around that's informing this or reinforcing this label? Mm hmmm yeah. And I think when you get to the bottom of all of those questions that you've encourage people to be curious about, so much of it is just what society has told us is the right way quote unquote yes, yes, I think like another question to really ask yourself is do I think that this is true for one group of people and not true for another group of people? Right? So, like a common misconception is that like men can't be bisexual and it's so harmful because I can't man be bisexual? Why can't men be curious about their identities and you know, and about their sexuality. It's it's so limiting for that area that I really, I really encourage people to this really question, like, you know, why do I think that? What? What have I learned? Where did I get this information from? And how come? It's so easy for me to accept that this group of people can explore their sexual qality and get to know for certain and other people cannot. So we talked a little bit earlier. Michelle is just about you know, like how do you even learn what a relationship looks like if you don't have any models for it? And so I'm curious to hear from you if you feel like there are any portrayals in like modern media that do a good job of like representing queer people and queer relationships. Oh my goodness, that's a good one. So I attentionally seek out this type of content, which is kind of difficult to find. Yeah, but there is a show on Netflix called Black Mirror, and they have this episode it's called Saying Junior peril, I think, and they portray like a queer relationship and that was a really interesting one. It was an interracial one, but that was a really interesting one. I think like YouTube series have a lot of great examples on like just different stories being told on like queer people just having regular relationships and it's not really centered around their queerness, but it's just a centered around them being humans and also being queer. And so YouTube had a lot of different series, like Between Women TV was a really good one. And then I just watched Tinder. Oh my goodness, it was so good. I wish it was an hour. I know, right, What did you find so affirming about Tinder? I just thought it was so intimate. I thought it was so intimate because it wasn't really like sexual lives, even though that's okay, yeah, were about like the connection. And I think that they did a really good job at just portraying like, Okay, I'm internally processed and you can see my wheels turn it, but I'm not really expressing everything. I'm still trying to figure out what just happened? What am I doing here? Just having to be really curious with each other and encourage each other. It was easy for them to encourage each other before they kind of took that into their own, like how they were navigating their different ages in life. M h yeah, And I feel like it was like a balance of them kind of exploring like a queer relationship or at least a queer interaction and just like queer people living their lives, yes, like the navigated career in dreams and stability and you know, like past betrayals and all those things you know, are super relatable. And then they were able to just really find like comfort and connection with each other. And I thought that was just so beautiful. Yea. So did you get a chance to watch The L Word? You know? I never I have only seen this and pieces of the L where I'm so late to the L word, like it's so many seasons, but a lot of my friends who are like queer and who are lesbians recommend that I watch it, and I just have been like this in piece in the series, some of the clips that I've seen that really helped me understand, like this, the intimacy, especially as we talk about like queer relationships and women, is the friendship aspect of like how intimate and close to friendships can be and how that can be even a gateway to like women feel uncomfortable about exploring their sexuality because they've already had a strong level of intimate see established with the woman they know they can have it. And I thought that that was really important in all of the shows that I mentioned or I'm curious about, I know that there has been like a component of all of them. M So do you think that that's necessary or is that like a hallmark maybe of queer relationships, like this intimacy that maybe looks different than like hetero Norman relationships. I do think the intimacy looks different in queer relationships. As people have described it. There is a level of openness and safety that a lot of people have been able to establish in queer relationships. I'm not sure what that common threat is. If it is, like, you know, we have to be this intimate because this part of our identity is very vulnerable and it's often attacked or intolerant in other places in the world. I'm not really sure, but I have noticed that across my practice and my experiences the shows I've watched, the intimacy is it's so high, it's it's such a high level of intimacy, like emotional intimacy, intellectual intimacy, like really just and curious about, like how do I define intimacy? Yeah? Yeah, and I wonder too if it is because you don't have these like ideas about who you're supposed to be in relationship based on the media and stuff. It allows you to be different, right, which maybe opens up a different level of vulnerability that doesn't exist in non queer relationships. Yeah, and that's what brings me back to friendship, because you know what, your friendships. If you are fortunate and blessed enough to have like a really really really really close friend, then you get to be like you and you guys are closed and maybe not even a lot of things in common, but you have enough that you can share openly and freely. And that's a really important aspect of all relationships, but in the queer relationships especially, it's important to have those types of connections. So something else that has come up, and we've already talked about the importance of you know, having queer farming spaces and getting a support system to be curious about some of these things, But something that has come up is what happens when you maybe start dating within your queer support system and then maybe there's a breakup or things get a little weird. What kinds of suggestions do you maybe have for navigating that. Yes, one of the things that I would this is for people who haven't yet had to navigate this, but who might. Being very candid about what the outcomes could look like and having that conversation in the beginning will be so helpful, right, like, Okay, what if this doesn't work out? What does that mean for us? How important is our friendship? How do we prioritize it? What does it mean for the other people in our friend group? And havn't that be an ongoing conversation because as time progresses, our feelings towards that could change, and we want to be able to allow space for that. But for the people who are currently navigating that, or have navigated that, and they have dated within the friend group, or somebody dated within the friend group and Nail maybe there's a breakup or maybe there's friction, I would encourage them to connect with people within the French group that are safe, you know, to be able to like process how they interpret it, what happened and then if it's a matter of safety, then of course I want them to prioritize their safety, but to really be able to prioritize like what what really happened? Why did this end? And is it something that could be solvageable so that we can keep in community or at least be cordial, and then stating your boundaries with the remaining friend group around which your expectations are, and see if that's something that they can adhere to or honor. M M. Yeah. And it feels like that maybe a little different than what happens in you know, non queer like breakups, right, I mean, because that is my specialty is work on people have to breakups. And usually it's like, Okay, you gotta find a new support group and that kind of thing. But in these kinds of circumstances where we know it can be really difficult to find support, it sounds like there may need to be some additional conversations about like how can we work through this? Yes, you know, I'm sitting here and I really wish that I could say, like find a different group of right, but it's so difficult yea to even find you know, like quote a quote like your people, especially because you can't just look at somebody and just be like, oh, like you're queer and they could be a friend of mine and so you know, that's just like my soapbox that I just hopped on. But with navigating those friendships, just really being clear about like, am I honoring my boundaries by staying within this particular aspect of our community. H I love that. I think that would be something we kind of continue to explore Baby in the community or in future episodes, because I think there is something there. Yeah. Yeah, So I'm curious, Michelle if there are any other resources. So you've already given us some great ideas for communities people might be interested in getting involved with, but are there other like books or podcasts or things that you think would be really helpful for people to connect with. Honestly, one of my favorite books that I think helps open people up to the conversation is Pleasure Activism by Adrian Mury Brown. Just to be able to to interact with women and films that are queer and that shares spacebook, queer people and trans people. That book really just prioritizes pleasure and I do think that being able to connect with pleasure in a different way helps us really be a lot more open to any identity that we might have. And then the books that I found really helpful to help my clients are not around sexuality, but they're more about like shame and and so there's a book called The Gift of Imperfection. Yes, yes, yes, those two books have really been helpful to just kind of like examine shame and what that might mean for us. This book might feel random. But there's this book called The Woman Who Run with Wolves? Oh? Yes, have you finished that one? Yes? I have tried to get into it like twice, and for some reason I just cannot. I feel like I need to try again because I have heard such great things about it, but I have not been able to really get into it for some reason. Yes, And you know the reason why I was able to even get into it is because I did it in a book club. I get it in a book club, so we broke it up into chunks and we're able to like talk through it. It wasn't difficult for me to do it the first time. So maybe that's the key. So what do you love about that one in particular? Um, just examining the different archetypes that might like that make that that contribute to our identity. I think that is really important to just get curious around, like you know, you don't have to fit into again, kind of like deconstructing the binaries, like what do we think feminine even means? What do we think womanhood even means? And she has these stories like this collection of like poems in there um and short stories that really help you understand like, oh, this is how this type of archetype or this type of personality type might like show up cannot connect with it, and like how do I even hide behind some of these identities that might hold valuable I thought was so fascinating, especially when she talked about how important creativity is in our self care and our well being. M hm dope, Like, Okay, maybe I will try to arrange a little mini group to try to explore some of this stuff. Yes, I would read it again, I would. I would. Okay, I might be emailing you about that, feeling out my notes again because I have a couple more. There is this therapist that I follow and they have this blog called Queering Psychology. Oh yeah, and it is so good. I think that that would be a really helpful resource for anybody that's like wanting wanting to learn more, that's wanting to connect with your identity more Like they really go into how to like decolonize, like our thoughts and our approach to this. The language is so affirmative, the tone just feels really really compassionate. Called queerying psychology. And where can we find you online? Michelle? What is your website it as well as any social media handles you want to share? Yes, so my website is Therapy to a T dot com. And you can find me on Instagram at Queer Black Therapists, and you can find me at Therapy for Black Girls. Perfect. Well, Thank you so much, Michelle. I really appreciate you sharing with us today. Thank you. I love talking to you. During the course of my conversation with Michelle, a few themes kept coming up, but particularly the ways in which media helps to shape our models of relationships and the importance of seeking out queer media and affirming images to assist in exploring identity and relationships. It felt like the perfect way to round out this conversation was by bringing in someone who has been intentional in creating these types of affirming images. So I'm pleased to have Felicia Pride join us to chat about her new short film, Tender. Felicia is a ball some More native and a film and TV writer and director. She was a writer for two seasons on Ava Duvernaise Queen Sugar, and has sold a drama pilot book adaptation to NBC's Universal Cable Productions. She sold the feature Deeper to Universal Pictures and is the co writer and executive producer of the film Really Love, produced by Macro, which won a special jewelry prize at south By Southwest. Felicia was a Film Independent Screenwriting Lab Fellow and a graduate of NBC's Writers on the Verge program as a comedy writer. Prior to she worked as a film distribution executive and an impact producer, and is the author of six books, including The Message one hundred Life Lessons from Hip Hop's Greatest Songs. Felicia holds an m A and writing from Emerson College and runs the Create Daily, a resource for underrepresent the storytellers that she found it in twenty twelve. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for being with us today, Felicia, Thank you for having me. Yes, I am a longtime fan, so I am very excited that we'll have a chance to chat today about your first short film. Well, I'm not sure is it your first? This is my first that I directed, Yes, that you directed, Okay, Tinder. So for those of you who have not had a chance to watch Tender, definitely check it out when we are done with this conversation. But I want to hear Felicia, what was your inspiration behind Tender? Yeah? I mean it was twofold. I am primarily a writer, and directing was all the ways something that seemed out of reach for me. But then I learned quickly long in the business that film is a director's medium, and I realized that I had stories that I wanted to tell that I really needed to be a part of the vision from start to finish. Like, for instance, I'm working on a story now that's inspired by my mother, my sister, my niece, for three generations of black women, and I'm like, I the director, Like who else is going to direct that? So I had to get my directing skills up, took a bunch of classes, and then I was like you know what, I'm ready to kind of get my feet wet but in order to do that, I wanted to do it with a story that was simple in terms of like two actors, one location, one day, but also impactful. And I also wanted the film to really represent the things that I'm interested in exploring. And so, interestingly enough, with Tender, two of the characters, Keiana Lulu come from a pilot, a longer piece that I've written, and I just fell in love with those characters, mainly because a lot of me is in them. And so I wanted to explore Black women's sexuality and desire. I wanted to explore desire from professional means, the things that we desire professionally, the things that we desire personally. I wanted to show shades of sexuality that we don't see enough on screen. I wanted to show our queerness, our our our passion, but also our vulnerability and our scars, and and then do it in fifteen minutes. So, like these two characters, I felt like I had a dynamic that I could be able to explore a lot with a little mm hmmm, so much of what you're talking about. It sounds like such a big test to take on to do in fifteen minutes. Yeah, I mean, but luckily, you know, when the whole package comes together. I think the great thing that I love about filmmaking is how collaborative it is. So when you have amazing actors Pharrell Walker and Trishanna Clark, you have amazing cinematographer Ludovica is a Dory, and you have amazing crew, and the package comes together, the music that was provided by Asha Sante and Boom Scat, when it all comes together, it just I think the layers help, right, So you have a very sort of simple story to women who have a one night stand in the morning after, But then when you add all the layers on top of it, the performances, the cinematography, the music, productions and all that, I think that's when you have something that can be really lush. So I I thought it was interesting that so much of the story takes place the morning after. Can you tell me what was significant about having it be set then? Yeah, I mean, I was definitely interested in the idea of emotional intimacy, right, so what does that look like, especially after you've had physical intimacy? And I imagine that like it was on and popping and between Kiana and Lilo, like the night before the one night stand. I think it was hot and like you know, on and popping, but I was really really interested in the idea of emotional intimacy between two black women. And I think it's also because it's aspirational. Like number one, I've never had a one night stand that the next morning it's beautiful and we have this beautiful day that we spent another So I think it was aspirational for me, but also just to show the ways that black women can be vulnerable with each other, the ways that we can share an intimacy that I think it's hard to find between other groups of people, at least for me. I just I feel like I can be my most vulnerable with black women, and I wanted to show that on screen. I felt. I also found it interesting that a part of what you did was allowed us to explore something. So I don't quite remember, if you say it, what age the characters were, but I assume that they are maybe early thirties, and so the idea that you know, society kind of tells us we should have all of this stuff figured out by the time we're like early thirties, but clearly there's this exploration that these characters are sharing later in life. Yeah. And and also actually I've had a little bit of an age difference between them, you know. One of the things I was interested in and someone picked this up that it. She asked me, is this a conversation between you and your younger self? And I was like, yeah, Like, I think that there's something interesting between you know, a woman who we have Keana, who's an older character who just had this sort of very very extensive surgery that has impacted her. She's very stable, maybe also like sexually in a rut, you know what I mean, but has a certain level of confidence. And then you have Lulu who's younger, who has all this energy and light, queer out and proud, very confident in her sexuality, but not confident in other areas of her life. And how can they pour into each other? How can they learn from each other? Yeah, So I think that had a lot to do with it, and also just looking at my younger self and my older self and the things that I can still get from each of them. M hmmm. So what is it that you hope that people leave feeling after they watched Tender? That's a good question. I don't know. If it's about feeling. I do know that I want more of us to tell our stories. I think because we weren't going to release Tender online when we did, but because of the pandemic, it just felt right. And so the reception to the film has been amazing, and just like see reception and the field reception in real time, I've never really had that with my work. And what it showed me too is that woe. Like we know theoretically that we need more Black women stories. We need more and all types of Black women right, queer black women, oh to black women, younger black women, different levels of ability. But this project really showed me that we really really made that. I just hope that it continues to encourage those of us with stories inside of us who maybe been holding back telling ourselves reasons why we can. I told myself for many years I couldn't direct and getting past that and telling these stories because we need more stories about our vulnerability. We need more stories about our pain, more stories about our joy from our lens and from our perspective. Because this is just one story, this is my perspective, This is one slice, but there's so many more that need to be told. I I completely agree. Do you have any suggestions for people who are not quite sure where to even store it, like to start telling their story? Yeah, I mean, I think there's a range of because there's so many ways that we can be storytellers, you know, whether we do it through you know, writing, whether we do it through visual, whether we do it through or like find art. I think it's like finding a medium that works for you in this moment, because you can always expand mediums. Finding a medium that works and also that may be accessible and quick, Like I'm all about what's the quickest way to get something Now. It might be on your Instagram where you're telling stories, you know, But I think that finding a medium and doing it, I think the challenge often is that we just don't take that step, and that's fear. And I think that's where therapy comes in. I am a huge proponent of therapy. I found my therapist on therapy for Black girls because sometimes it's blocks that we have that we have to work through and and also ideas that we need to hide and shrink ourselves. But one thing my therapist told me is that when you hide, you deny your brilliant to the world. And I think a lot of us are doing just that, but the world needs are brilliant Me. No, I would say whatever it takes to get started, and even if it's not in a public form, maybe it's just you in a diary, you taping thoughts and ideas on your phone and sharing it with the small group of people, but just taking a step. And I know it sounds like cliche, but literally that's kind of what it is. Yeah, what kind of work did you feel like you had to do personally just in preparation to give this to the world? Who I had? Interesting enough, I had to do self worth work because again I had I had all these narratives in my head about what I couldn't do, and that was a combination of you know, what the world has told us what we can't do, and how I internalized that. And I also had to work through the idea that being scared of what people think. But working through that is big because and that's always from an artists. I mean, it is very very vulnerable state to be in to release art to the world. So that's something I think I'll just have to continue working through. And then also I think what helped with like the quote unquote like imposter syndrome um or I can't be a director. Was taking classes and learning what the director does and trying it out and going through that process. The practicality of that was very very helpful. Yeah, and then I and I also just surrounded myself with black women. My producer, Regina Halls was just like, we don't set a date for you to shoot this, and I was like wow, but she was right. So also having people accountability partners in that way who kind of push you and challenge you so m so you share that you feel like that we need just all kinds more black women's stories. I'm curious if you have any suggestions for non queer creators who maybe want to expand the narratives but include queer characters. Yeah. I mean, I think I've had like fears around that because I don't identify as queer of is this a story I should be telling for me? It is my story in a lot of ways, So that's where the permission I've given myself to do that. But I also think then it's it's it's talking with those who you want to center and actually centering them. But you know what I mean, because I think sometimes when we want to center characters who are not us, we actually end up centering ourselves. So being really clear about those distinctions and centering them in your collaborative process. So that's something that I'm looking to do, because I'm going to be expanding Tender into a feature is really making sure that, however far I take the narrative, that I'm including the voices and the collaboration of queer black women. So I think that's important. Have you seen other good examples or things that you have really enjoyed in terms of queer representation in media. Yeah, I mean, well, mm hmm. I think we're seeing a lot more queer representation. I think there's definitely space for more. One documentary that I've recently watched that I thought was really really eye opening and that was informative was Disclosure about you know, just trans representation in media and entertainment. I thought that was really really eye opening and important and also shows that we need more trans people telling their stories, and we need more trans people who are centered, and then also when we are writing trans stories, that we need to be collaborative with trans people. So that was really really eye opening and something that that was really important and really well done. Yeah, I found myself really struck by the title of your film, tender, because I don't know that that it's always are often a word we here connected to black women. Can you share just a little bit about like the significance of even the title. Yeah, it's interesting because I'm not good at titles. Number one, so we had a working title called Couci that I actually was gonna go with it, and I was like, Okay, it might be too much. But I just remember being like, how to describe what this movie is, how to describe what we're going for in this film, and just working through tons and tons and tons and tons of titles with my home girl, and then I remember and our producer and I just remember coming across Tender, and I was just like, you know, I think titles sometimes it's one of those things where when you finally come across it, you're like, that's it, that's for one. Uh, and it just it It just I just felt like it captured what we were going for, you know. I also wanted to show like our hardness, right, but how we are defenses come down when we feel safe, um, and how our tenderness can come out when we feel safe. So yeah, that was that was, Oh, it was. I didn't think we were gonna get it because I remember just like coming down to the wires, I wanted to like launch the crowd funding campaign and still didn't have a title, and um, then it just came. It came. Yeah, were you worried at all about like some of the stigma really added to One night Stand? I think a lot of times there's a lot of shame around black women's sexuality. There's a lot of exploitation around our sexuality. So I just want to stab agency, you know. And yeah, I wanted us to have the agency and that and One night Stand and sort of normalizing that being something that black women can engage in, you know what I mean, because we do, yes, yes, yeah, And I know that you have ideas for expanding. But I also appreciated, at least in this short film version of it, that it really was just them, right, So it wasn't anybody else's opinions. There was no talking to the best friend the next day about what happened, and like it really was just their little world. Yeah, yeah, thank you. So can you give us any ideas or steak in terms of what you're thinking in terms of expansion. I wish I could, because I don't even know. I am circling around this film. I'm like, what is the feature? I just know I have to do it, Like it feels like I'm like called to do this, jerk. This was going to be a standalone project. Tender was going to be its own little thing. But just the reception of the project and people like we need to see more, we need to see more, I'm like, Okay, I need to expand it. So I'm circling around it. I mean, there are some things from the pilot that I think could be interesting for the future, like seeing them in the workplace because they work together, so actually seeing the lead up to the one that I stand, seeing the one night stand, seeing the more. So that's kind of where I'm at right now. But I don't know, it could completely be different. I'm in the writing stage where I'm thinking, I'm not writing nothing. It's just like my head is like, where what is the what is the story? Yeah? And I've heard other writers talk about, you know, like how they like will sometimes live with the characters and the characters will just you know, speak to them. And kind of lead you in terms of where the story will go. Can you tell us a little bit about your process. Yeah, I'm hoping they will talk to me. You know, I definitely have a more I think practical process because Tender doesn't have a deadline and attached to it, right, because you know a lot of my work has deadlines attached to it, so I have to kind of systematize it. Because Tedder doesn't have a deadline attached to what even though I have thoughts around when I would love to shoot it, I do have some time to be in my head more and to kind of find the story. And then what I've started is just like what I call a beat sheet is plot points that are really interesting to me. And then I also have like a character sheet, like what what do I want these characters too experience and go through? What do they want that will color what they go through and experience? And what do they need? What do I kind of see as their arc and where do they start and where do they end? And that really helps a lot. And then what do I want to really hone in as a theme. Those are the things that I started start with because the theme helps me to map out the emotional journey of the characters and as well as like the plot points of that. So that usually how I start from a thinking standpoint. I put that down on paper. Then I go into a bee sheet, which is just the major plot points, and then I expand that beach sheet into an outline. And I tend to spend the most of my time and outlining because I like to work out story problems, and I get feedback on my outline, and then I go to draft because I try to write that draft as fast as humanly possible, because I think a lot of us get stuck in the writing process and we don't finish. So I try to write that as fast as possible so I can get into rewriting, which is our friend, and that's where I spent a lot of my time as well as getting it right. But at least I have the bones there. Yeah, so I would imagine that again. You know we I think we already talked about how parts can be sensitive about their stuff. How do you manage like the idea of needing to get feedback but also not you know, maybe internalizing some of the feedback. Yeah, Well, I have trusted people that I go to, so I'm in two writer's groups right now, So I have a writer's group, but I trust and even sometimes then depending on the project, I picked the people who I want to get feedback from, and I just don't go wide with feedback. I have friends who get a lot a lot of feedback For me, it then starts to just become too much and overwhelming and confusing. So I keep my feedback circle pretty small for projects. Even for tender like the rough Cut, I sent it to like three friends and then like you know, key crew, but I kept it really really small. So yeah, I just go to trusted people, so I don't internalize that when you get notes from other people, like when you're working on you know, studio jobs, that can be a little bit more challenging. And so what I do is I let myself just like be mad at the notes for a day and be like, they don't know what they're talking about, and then you know, get over it and get back to my job. Of my job and you know, is addressing their notes and then finding a way creatively to do that and also again realizing and affirming my creativity and my power as a writer. And reason why they chose me was because I'll be able to pull this off. So I just kind of affirmed that for myself. M So, what else can we look forward to from you, Felicia besides the longer version of Tinder and maybe a year or so. Yeah, that's not funny for the years, so thank you for that. Yeah. Well, I'm currently working on Erotic Romance with Bill Pack of Productions producing that we sold to Universal, so I'm really excited about that. I also have the Indie feature, another indie feature that I hope to direct that is inspired by my mother, my sister, and my niece, so I'm really excited about that. And then I just have some other things that are kind of cooking, so we'll see where they go. Very exciting. When where can we stick in it with you so we can find out about all the updates. Absolutely, you can follow me on Instagram and Twitter at Felicia Pride. You can also watch Tender at Tender movie dot com. We have playlists there if you like the music in there. Asha Santi who was out of the group Boom Scat together they did all the music in the film, so there's a playlist there. There's behind the scenes stuff so everything you can find at tender movie dot com and then my website is Felicia product dot com. Perfect. Well, thank you so much for sharing with us today, Felicia, I appreciate it. Thank you for having me, and thank you for all the work that you do. It is so important and it's it's valuable and also it's it's changing live. So thank you, thank you. I'm so thrilled we got to hear from both Michelle and Felicia today. To learn more about them and their work, be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session one. S don't forget to share your takeaways with us on social media using the hashtag tv G in session, and please text two sisters in your circle right now and encourage them to check out the episode as well. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot calm slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into this topic and connect with some other sisters in your area, come on over and join us in the Yellow College Collective, where we take a deeper dive into the topics from the podcast and just about everything else, you can join us at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash y c C. Don't forget that. If you're looking for a way to end summer on a high note, Cricket Wireless has got just the thing. Get ready for unlimited smiles, unlimited times. For Get four lines of unlimited data for a hundred dollars a month. Thank you all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care,