Session 160: A Not So Happy Ending

Published Jun 17, 2020, 7:00 AM
Dr. Donna Oriowo, M.Ed, MSW, CST is back to debrief on the season 4 finale of Insecure. This week, she and I chatted about what happened between Molly & Andrew, Tiffany’s struggles with postpartum depression and how we might support friends who are struggling, the giant reveal from Condola, what’s next for Issa & Lawrence, and what we might expect from Season 5.

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Support for today's podcast comes from HBO's new series I May Destroy You, a fearless, frank, and provocative show written by and starring MICHAELA. Cole that explores the question of sexual consent in contemporary life and how in the new landscape of dating and relationships we make the distinction between liberation and exploitation. The Atlantic calls it a brilliant, explosive consideration of modern sexual mores. Decider described it as an ode to the black female artists. Be sure to watch new episodes of I May Destroy You on Monday's at nine pm Eastern on HBO and stream it on HBO Max. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girl's podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session one sixty of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. We're back this week to say goodbye to season four of Insecure, and while they sure gave us a finale, joining me for another week of debriefing is my friend and colleague, Dr Donald Orio Will, who was an author, international speaker, and certified sex and relationship therapists in the Washington, d C. Metro area. She's the owner of a nod Right and specializes in working with black women on issues related to colorism and texturism and its impact on mental and sexual health. She's also the author of Cocoa Butter and Hair Grease, a self love journey through hair and skin. This week, she and I chatted about what happened between Molly and Andrew, Tiffany struggles with postpartum depression, and how we might support friends who are struggling, the giant reveal from Gondola, what's next for Eastan Lawrence, and what we might expect from season five. This episode does include spoilers. Here's our conversation. So we are back. So we've come so far down this road we have it feels like it took a long time to get here, and it also was way too quick. Absolutely, you know, I mean, I think that we should get another potition going. Maybe we can get a forty minute episode. I'm just saying I'm okay with the unconventional. It doesn't have to be an hour. I mean, we at this point just have to be hopeful that we can get another season within the next year or so. Cod act right, So, well, they're just gonna have to act via zoom and we get up all old new version of insecutive. So the title of this week's episode is low key lost, and I feel like that is a great description of how they knew we would all be feeling at the end of this episode. I was just like man lost in two senses, were not lost it all? We lost out here, just lost, just lost all over the place. So we see opens up this This episode opens up with Molly and Andrew, Yeah, at a work event. Right. They are at a work event, Molly's work event, and he has tagged along, and so they're having conversations and somebody approaches them about like an after hour spot, right, and so it's clear that Andrew is not really interested in going, but Molly, you know, commences him like, Okay, I'll make it a work thing for you too, I'll have them play some of your artists or something like that. Right. So, I feel like this was a continuation of what we saw last week, right, like some cracks in the foundation of the relationship. I'm just saying that predictions were made and then they happened. Um m hmm. It's like, okay, Andrew, tell me how you fail finally. But it also seems like he then just went along with it, right, Like he you know, he didn't really want to go, but then she kind of convinced him and then he went along with it. Yeah. Yeah, but I felt like he was a little bit more resistant to it this time around, and he was just like you could tell that he was just it sort of deflated him a little bit, like he's making that sound like all right, like I'm gonna I'm giving you this thing, but I feel it. I feel that I'm giving you this thing and I don't want to pass. It was not as obvious exactly. I felt like he made it very obvious that he was not happy about making this concession this time. And yeah, yeah, well we see very shortly after right that there is a continuation. So they've gone to this afterwork thing and now they get back to the apartment and they want to watch Up and Neally, I'm looking for LaToya because he we have avoided all the spoilers, and he's like, Okay, we're finally we can watch this because now we're you know, not on your time, we can do it now. And she doesn't want to watch it because she's still tired. So I feel like this was clearly like the last draw for him. I think that, you know, like there was no more strong to be given that day at all. And it's funny to me because it sort of got me going back to the previous episode with the block party and just how it's just that that space of like are you are you here? Are you paying attention to what's going on? Like are you here with me in this moment, because it doesn't feel like you're here, like you're seeing, like you're able to take in what is right here right now. She wasn't taking in that. He was not like he's like, come on, Like even like before the block party when she was telling Issa, I'm not I'm not going to ask him to do nothing because I was like, all right, look, she knows she on some shaky ground. You gotta put in deposits before you can make a withdrawal. And she didn't recognize that she didn't have no withdrawal power in that moment. Yeah, And so now we see it has come full circle and it's obvious to her only when he for her. And I think this is what happens a lot of times when we are like not necessarily all the way tuned in in our relationships. So there is this thing, right, So, in the absence of everything else going on in the relationship, us not watching the finale of Looking for LaToya, You're blowing up about that would seem like what in the world is happening? Right, But because we know that there have been this these frustrations that she hasn't really been paying attention to, now it feels like he's overreacting. Context is everything. Yeah, So she even asked him like, Okay, what is this really about? And he tells her. I'm glad that she had the wherewithal to ask what it was really about. And I'm glad that he was finally able to speak up about what it was really about. I feel like he's been trying to drop hence almost all season, Like, you know, this thing is a problem, of this thing is a problem, but I'm in the end of the day that the whole thing for me, for both of them, both of them are faults. I know that some people are gonna you know, a lot of people really mad at Molly right now. Nobody seems to ability be team Molly. I'm team fix It. But but when I'm looking at this Molly Andrew piece, I'm like, part of the issue here is that Angel was being very subtle in the beginning about what what his needs were about being able to set boundaries and expectations and hold her to them. And now it's almost like he'd been building this cache as nonsense and it just sort of erupted in that moment. Now, granted it was the most gentle eruption that I ever did see, but it was still it was still an eruption nonetheless, where you know, it's like all this stuff has come to a head and it's like, look, I can't keep on with this. Yeah, And it's interesting that you say you feel like he's been dropping hints all season. I feel like we have been seeing it, but I don't know that, like it would be something that Molly would really see. Do you have examples of when he's dropped hints that you think all right? Like when she kept choosing work over him and they went to dinner and I felt like he dropped the hint. Then like number one, he made it he made other plans for after dinner because oh, I thought you would be busy, as you have always been busy, so trying to make sure that he's living and leading a life outside of her. So I'm like, all right, to me, that was a hint, And even the conversation that ensued thereafter, I'm like, I thought that that was him letting his thoughts and feelings about the whole situation be known. I felt like he got really very quiet for me after she had that blow up and showed her whole ass at the at the block party. I was like, oh, Okay, now I'm wondering because now his conversation with her changed to I'm on your side and having to reiterate that I'm on your side, which sounds like I don't want you to jump down my throw and treat me the way that you treat the person that you call your best friend. Yeah, you said that in one of the other episodes. Yeah, so I'm wondering like if at this point it's just like, you know what, I don't have nothing else to lose because this is not working for me, and I can't keep going like this. I can maintain my silence and be upset and uncomfortable and resentful, or I can speak my piece and know that maybe that's the end of this relationship. Yeah. So, I see what you mean, and that he had been voicing like some of his concerns and while it may have seemed like there maybe was progress being made, clearly there was not a lot of progress being made. Nah. Yeah. Yeah. So we see this conversation that Molly and Andrew are having is interrupted because Kelly is calling several times, and so once Kelly calls for like the third time, right, Molly is like, Okay, this is clearly an issue. She picks up the phone and the scene right right, because clearly she's in the middle trying to figure out what's happening with Andrew. And the next scene, we see them all at Tiffany and what's her partner's name, dere Derek, We see them at we see them at their apartment, and Tiffany has clearly been has clearly gone missing. Yes, yeah, so he's on the phone with somebody. In the background, we can there is Tiffany. So we see that. Uh, he says, already there and Kelly, And I'm guessing, are these Tiffany's family member Derek's family members? I couldn't. I didn't quite know the relationship between who the other two women were. Yeah, nor did I. So I just want with family. There's somebody's family, there's somebody's family. So we see there. You know, of course, everybody is upset and trying to figure out what's happening. And so I know early on, you know, we saw some hints that there may be some hostpartum stuff going on with Tiffany in the early episode where we saw them bring the baby home. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, But then we didn't see anymore really about it until this until the season finally, and um, at first, I was just like, this to me felt sloppy. That was my initial thing that like, oh, this is kind of sloppy. Forgot to start it and then just leave it. Except that, you know, the things that you learn when you're in therapy with others. There's this idea of this theory that was talking about like they did that on purpose, that it was background, because that's how it got me thinking about like when when you have in the baby shower where everybody is present, when the baby first comes, everybody is present, but after after a while, everybody start falling off, fading back, and you sort of are in the background, dealing with the stuff on your own, and it's another it's not forefront and sent her in that moment and that this you know, this this postpartum depression works in much the same way as just like it was just like a fallback, like because she was very present at the beginning of the season and then became less so as we moved through the season and just like, oh, she's sort of left by herself to sort of deal with this thing. Oh that is a very interesting parallel. That is, yeah, I mean because we saw in the beginning of the season she was still pregnant right when he said was still trying to get her funding for the block party. And we saw her block party and she had already had the baby, and and it was and she was drinking, right, so it was clear that she needed some time. You know, she was really appreciating because Derek had come to the block party with her at first, and then the baby was crying, so she was like, can you just go home and do it? So she clearly still wanted to have some of their time to kind of be with her friends, and you know, kind of I think that that is something that happens a lot, especially with new moms, right, is that there is a real struggle between who you were before the baby and who you are now and somebody's mom and really struggling with like that identity piece. So I think we saw a little there too. Yeah, I feel like there's just like a general lack of awareness that just because you've got something new and precious that you may have wanted doesn't mean that there's not also still grief, because I'm like, you're still grieving that old life like this was, you know, grieving when you get married, You're grieving that single life when you when you have a child, you're grieving the time when you did not have a child and that, and it's just it's just letting go of the one thing in order to embrace the other, but you still have to go through your grieving process whatever that looks like. It sort of reminded me of one of your previous episodes. I don't have episode numbers because you do. But the more where you talk about graduating and that, yes, there's you know, the fun and excitement of oh my gosh, I'm a graduate, I'm done with school, but there's also the loss of the identity of being a student in the traditional sense of the word, as opposed to you know, I am a student of mm hmm. But you know, it don't cost nobody, right. But I think if we go back to your theory about how much of the season related to her and the baby mimics like real life, we also saw that there was so much energy around what was happening with Molly and Issa that it did feel difficult for other people's stories to to be able to shine through. Exactly gets me thinking about like how we can make something the center of our worlds. Like you see people who are breaking up with somebody, or you know, they're going through a relationship transition. I see people who are like, Okay, we're not having sex. They are so focused on this one thing that they're not necessarily able to take a step back and see how all there's still a bunch of stuff happening in their worlds that also may have compounded this particular issue. So I'm just like thinking about, like, Okay, there's all this stuff going on in the background of their relationship, and if Tiffany were more present, if she was not dealing with what she's been dealing with, what might have been different? Could anything have been different? Yeah? Well, I think that that's a really good conversation, right, like some ideas about what it does mean to to kind of maybe be the first mom in the group, because that's another dynamic, right that she had already first about how she was feeling separated, right, and she felt like she needs to go get her some mommy friends. M m m m. Yeah, So I wonder if that may be a conversation to have around like, how do you, as the non mom friends continue to be able to support and show up for your friend who is a new mom? Exactly? Do you have thoughts that's how do you show up for your friend who is a new mom? Um? Well, number one, make sure that it doesn't stop right after the baby stops being a new more like, don't stop showing up, don't stop doing things and giving things and being present. So I'm saying, like, make a standing appointment once a month at the very least, or get a rotation of friends together that somebody is always gonna be there to, you know, give her mommy relief time. Maybe two of you go together, one of you get the baby and the other one of you get mom. M hmm, Like let her have some adult time. Let's let's let's reconnect, let's not feel disconnected. Let's create some things that we can do all together around the schedule that you know is now happening because someone is a new mom. Yeah, and we saw some of that in this and not in this episode, but in the previous episode where they were there like folding baby, laundry and cooking and stuff like that. Like those are definitely very concrete things that you want to do. Um, because I think I've heard people and even from my own experience, right like everybody wants to come and like hold the baby, But that isn't always the helpful thing that new moms need you to do, Like come over here, laundry, you help me clean the bathroom. Like what you like, what you're been to brain, what you're gonna help me with and just making sure that we're thinking a little bit more beyond that. So like I know, for me, I get a lot of piece of mine when the when our space is clean and clear. So I'm just like, well, if you cannot physically show up yourself, can you send a cleaning crow? Good point? Can you hire uh somebody to go make some meals? Like if that's something that you have the financial means to do, maybe do something like that. Maybe send the food along eat that thing. Yeah, And I wonder that you gotta do. I also think that it's important for us to make sure that we um kind of verse ourselves in post part of symptoms. So I know, I did an episode with Dr Christie Christopher Holloway and I will link it in the show notes all about postpartum. That's her specialty, not at all mine. So I will not, you know, even try to go to in depth with this, right, but I think it is important for us to know some of the symptoms so that when we do have new moms in our circle, we can ask about this because it does happen far more often than we I think like to think. And so I think again, with everything going on with Molly and Issa. They may not have been taking the time to like really check in, like, hey, how are you really feeling and what does this experience really look like? And again, not that you can necessarily make an intervention, but if you are noticing some things like her being more withdrawn or whatever, then you can have a conversation. They're like, oh, you will be here drinking after the back party. They did they have a conversation about it. I want to say that it was like maybe a quick one line I like, and I want to say that maybe there was something about a pump and dump or something along those lines, And I'm just like, Okay, so we're seeing something, seeing some stuff for her, but at the same time we're not in the space to really address it. Yeah. So I think as the audience we were kind of picking up on some clues. But of course, you know that style the show is designed, right, but your life, you know, maybe it felt more like kind of scattered moments. But I think when you again have a new mom in your circle, it's important to kind of be at least a little well versed on, you know, some of the symptoms, maybe something to ask so that if there is a need for her to maybe start talking with the therapist or to get some additional support. Then you have already had that conversation with them, absolutely, and even just even then, you know the person, so remembering that you know them and like, hey, this thing feels a little off, a little different from who I know you to be. It seems like a little bit more stressed out. Um. I think that sometimes you can ask how can I help? But I think they also just taking the reins because if and the idea of someone having to think up what you can do to help them and how they can delegate that task to you now becomes additional work for them. So making sure that we're thinking about, like all right, out of the list of things that you know are usually needed, how can I be of service and take it over instead of trying to have this new mama who's already arranging so much now have to arrange how you're gonna help them. That's too much. It might end up being one thing too many, sort of like uh, now it's like I can't watch looking for LaToya right right, So we see them. Of course, after Derry King's up the phone with whoever he's talking to, I think maybe the police department or somebody. Um, they are like, okay, we're just gonna set out to find her. So they go to the movie theater um. And I think, of course that this uh plot of having Tiffany missing is also a great way to make sure that Molly and Issa have to be in contact one another. Yeah, so when we see that there's still this tension um with Molly and Issa, but of course for the greater good, they are talking with one another and you know, trying to have a game plan about how we're gonna find her. I felt like it also served the ulterior motive of opening Molly up a little bit more um well number when she's just coming off this conversation half a conversation with Andrew where he's just like, Yo, everything is about you. Everything like I've been for you, I break for you, I do this for you. You say, don't do this. I do it this way. Like everything is about you, even down to the food we eat. We make one arrangement, you Decivy eating something else. So it's like, okay, everything is always about you. You are at its center and you know best. And in this situation, it was like everybody has some thing to contribute to finding Tiffany, and the I felt like that there was that one sequence of conversation about oh, there's a bar here, and then it was like, okay, oh yeah, Issa did this. You know what was that sinco day drink of whatever they called it, whatever they called it, but you know, like, oh, we're gonna go to a bunch of these restaurant. We're gonna go to these restaurants. And I felt like that was a moment for Molly to recognize that actually, Issa does do things for you. Um that she coordinated this thing and she you know, she put our money on it, she put her time on it, and she was there for you. So I felt like, Okay, now it's like, oh I see Issa black and white, and now here goes a shade of gray like let me, oh, I need to reevaluate some things. But then there's also watching how Issa had a knowledge that that nobody else had and coming especially when we're thinking about Molly saying things like oh, she ran from me, like ran from a real job, and the work that she did is actually something that was very integral, and they're being able to find her at all because she's able to say, oh, how much was that fair? Okay, she had this one over here, like being able to to use her knowledge base in order to help. And I felt like that also was something that helped Molly to continue to take step backs to skill bigger picture. Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. I appreciate their perspective. So we see them, they get on the bus, they figure out, okay, she's probably on the bus route somewhere, um, and there's all these you know, random kind of conversations on the bus. But I think a prominent piece of their bus trip is, um, we see Derek doing a lot of like blaming himself. So you know, on the conversation, I was like, this is the entire season. So yeah, we see him doing a lot of blaming himself thinking and like I knew she was unhappy, but I didn't think it was this serious and all of these things, and so easily you're trying to comfort him, like we're all is kind of doing the best that we can. But what I feel like that was also a parallel to like her and Molly absolutely like he was just like I knew she wasn't happy, And then it went straight into I thought time would help, and I was just like the lie that we continue to tell ourselves about what time thing to do heals all wounds. Time don't heal ship well. I think the other piece of it is that how you use the time right, So we can't just think what we appeared before weeks and this should be healed when we haven't actually done any healing work in those exactly, it's the application. What do you what do you apply for time to help with the healing? Time does nothing but move forward. What are you doing to help it to be something that will now bring healing? Because if you get a cut on your arm, you know, and nothing deep enough, I mean, you can get what necurtizing fasciitis you know, um, you know, flash eating disease. So I mean you can your your arm caball off from not taking care of it, or you can apply something to it, you can clean it, you can do something, and time will help you to heal that wound. So time will either help your arm fall off because you get a blood infection and now's the end, or time can help you to actually heal it. But people think that because oh well, time will move forward and things will get better, I'm like, well, what did you do for time for things to get better? What did you apply? Like time, time don't heal nothing if you don't remember nothing else, I say, remember I said that, right, not time alone. But now thinking about it, it feels like that was kind of an analogy for multiple relationships, right, so from both Molly and but also Molly and Andrew. Right, so he has given this time, right, and clearly time has not healed it. Nope, none of them are applying the thing that they need to apply. They need to apply conversations and change or a plan of action, and none of them have actually done that. But I would also say that you know, you're talking about Molly and Andrew or Molly and Issa common denominated here being Molly, Well, that means you said that last week, do Molly has kind of been like the common denominated this whole season is kind of what it feels like, Yeah, because I'm just like everyone else is sort of applying certain lessons, applying certain things that they've learned in previous seasons or whenever. But you know, time has moved forward in such a way that it allows us to see the fruits of the labor that they put in at the start, Molly has not necessarily she doesn't think that she hadn't anything to change. And if you don't think you have anything to change, you're not applying anything. You're just watching things sort of fall apart around with you, and that can feel frustrating and anxiety provoking and make you feel like you got to clutch at these draws just a little bit tighter, but at the same time, still not going to apply to things that need to be applied, Like we're just watching a thing fall apart. You do. It's like there's one episode of Grace Anatomy. See I told you look at all these green There's a guy who had a cut on his foot and diabetes and it got so bad it got to the point that his foot needed to be cut off, and all he's doing is mourning when he could have done something different. He's mourning was falling apart in front of him. But it's like, dude, then it can't be solved now it should have been worked out. Then Now we have to have a new course of action. We have to consider a new a new destination of what your new normal is gonna look like. Because you've known about this for weeks and did nothing. That is an example of time didn't heal nothing. It just made it worse because you didn't apply anything. So I was looking that like this, this conversation, this admission of I saw it, and I just thought time would heal it, and that this piece of I just didn't think it would get this bad and I could have done more. I was just like, yeah, if this is not the entire season, very good points. Points were made as the kids sage, right, But I also think that it it kind of speaks to just having again the general education. So just like we talked about, you know, like how you might have some of those conversations with the new moms in your circle. I also think, as a partner of a new mom, right, that there are some things that you I think should be reading up on and you know, being aware of so that if you see certain signs, then you know that there's some action that needs to happen. Right. But again back to your point about all of the excitement about baby showers and decorating the nursery and all of these things, right, and I think the same can be said about like weddings, right, Like we do a lot of excitement about the actual wedding and not so much preparation for the actual marriage. And I think the same thing sometimes happens with babies is that there's the excitement of it, but not also thinking about there are some very real consequences that can happen and things that you want to be paying attention to related to mom um so that we make sure that she's okay too, because I'm just like, I feel like all of us have a collective responsibility. We shower someone with attention and love and gifts and well wishes when they're getting married, when they're having a baby, but then when it's in the process of now they have the baby, now they're in the marriage, everyone is gone. Yeah, And it's almost like we revert right back to what happens in my house stays in my house. So we're unable to get the help that we need from the people who were there to celebrate us in the first place. Yeah. Yeah, And I think it's actually as the mom, you know, your emotions and everything are so all over the place, so that even sometimes I think if you have the knowledge, you are not always able to kind of recognize for yourself, like this is something that I need to reach out about, you know. So that's why do you think it is important for our you know, support system to make sure that they are also armed with that information. And on top of that, I mean, I feel like we cannot have this conversation without also keeping in mind the strong black woman narrative that you're supposed to do all things and look good while you do it. Yes, Yes, that motherhood just comes naturally and you just know all the answers. Yeah, that's not It can be hard for us to be in a space where we're admitting that there's a lack of knowledge or a lack of no heart where that we're struggling and that we do need help, let alone knowing how to even ask for it. So if we're not practicing asking for help, we're also not necessarily practice and knowing what we would need help to do. Right. So for me, this is, you know, of course, multi fold, and that this means that there are multiple types of conversations that need to be had as well as a system in place for how things are gonna go there after m Yeah, So we finally see that they have been able to track down which hotel Tiffany is at and they are trying to get off the bus. They have this whole thing with the bus driver and what's her name, not Natasha's Kelly, Yes, Kelly's like, well, what's gonna happen if I press the button? She's like, I'm pressing the button. We're getting off the bus. And so we see them now. See now is where my heart race because the bus driver then flag down police officers. The police officers then confront the gang of friends, and so I'm like, oh my goodness, like what, oh my god, especially given like where we are just in the world right now, it just felt like, oh, this is bad timing for this so and like how much you know like that and that white guy from the bus also getting involved and all that talking to my son, My black woman looks just like you. I'm looking like it looks just like her, and now you you ready for her and a black woman? And right right? Yeah, So that that that scene in particular, definitely raised my heart rate, like I said, because you just didn't know like how it was going to play out. I didn't know if there would be some something that happens, you know, And again, given where we are in the world right now, it just felt like, oh, that felt very sensitive. Absolutely, yeah, but we see that it thankfully goes well. They're just like, okay, we're not gonna do this, and they go into the hotel, they find Tiffany, and now we see that she is in the room. Now I am I'm the only one that thought that maybe it was somebody else in the room. What I'm trying to cream my neck around the door. I'm like, oh my god, because you know that had also had also been all these rumors about like was the baby actually Derrick's like, is that a thing? But we of course see that she is in the room by herself and has showered, and just his crying and saying, you know, I didn't know what else to do. And so we see that Derek is the only one who really has any interaction with her, like the the friends don't actually talk to her at least that we see in that scene. Yea, And I would say that was also very appropriate help him find her and then allow him some space, but still be there in the background, because I'm just like, well, that's how it should go with the marriage with the children, with everything. Yes, it is you and your your spouse, you and your person, but it should also be that your friends, your family, your loved ones are there in the background to sure you want to give your shoulder, to give you whatever it is that you need in those moments when you like, I'm getting a divorce, so whatever it is allowing them to still be in space even if they're not going to be all up in the space the central part of the of the scene exactly. Yeah, so we see now that you know, now that she has been found safely, now it is time for all of the rest of the episode. So I think we see we go back to Molly and Andrew. Correct, Okay, yes, so we go back to Molly and Andrew. You know, Molly wants to have the conversation. Let's just pick up where we left off. You know, it ain't no no time, the ways, and so he tries not to go there with her because he understands that she likely is tired. They've been up all night, you know, that kind of thing. But she's like, yeah, emotional roller coaster. But I can also understand it from her perspective as well, where it's like I was in this upheaval and I need I need some I need some stability. Across the board, and this is the place where I don't have stability right now. Yes, you're having a very difficult conversation, and I would like us to finish that conversation so I can start to reach a resolution. Yeah, I can imagine that I would not have let that conversation go either, Like I would not have wanted to sleep on it, because I probably wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that we were in the middle of this like difficult conversation. I'd be like, we could talk now, I'm good, I can sleep later, I'll be all right. So we see. So he's like, okay, if you want to go there, and then he's like, I just don't feel like we're on the same page, Like it just kind of feels like I'm the one that's always giving, and what if we're not on the same page, And so she immediately jumps in with, you know, like what do we need to do this? Yes, I can fix this. I know I was wrong for going for not going with your brother, which was shocking to me because I did not ever think that she would kind of come off of that one. But I think that that also shows like, yes, like we are just now putting all the cards on the table because he has said, you know, like maybe this is not the right thing to do. And so she say us all of this stuff and he's like, what are you even fighting for right now? And so we see her has to take a pause, and rightfully, so right because I think this goes back to our early conversations and the comment from her therapist like do you want to be right or do you want to be in relationship? And so is this really about her wanting to just kind of say, okay, we can fix this versus I really want to be in relationship with this person. I feel like being with Andrew gave her things. Specifically, it met what she thought that she should have even from season one, that she should be with somebody by now yeah, and that that should be a serious something with someone. And in some ways it felt like he was just there, so you here, so I'm gonna make it work with you. And then it's the the piece for me of Issa basically like look, it's something I don't say like I work out with nobody you with And now it ends up being like, oh, I'm watched me, watch me, I'm approve to you. I can make it work, and and I'm of course also thinking about what the world tells dark skin black women, and the world tells dark skin black women that you don't you ain't nobody, that your value is less than everybody else's. And if you want to show us that you have value, that you need to get yourself a partner, specifically a male partner, and that if a man should choose you, well, now you're fixed. Now you have some value, but only as long as he wants you. So that grasping to stay in a relationship while being confronted with like, what are you frightening for? I felt like to me that was such an important piece of the conversation because I'm I'm looking at all the things I'm looking at. This is an interracial relationship I'm looking at and no t no shape, and nobody. But some people pick people outside of the black the black community because they're also trying to show others that they have more value, and that more value means I can pull somebody who's lighter, who's not black or whatever, and that this shows that I had even more value than if I would have pulled somebody else. And I don't want to be let go by this person that I've already deemed has more value. Yes, yes, yeah, there was just so much there, right because in a part of that conversation was also her like when he asked, like, okay, maybe we aren't on the same page, her first comment is not about anything about him or her or them together. Her first comment is neither of us have been in anything this long. Right, So so again, going back to your comment of this thing to check off off of her list, it really feels like it was much more about like just being in a relationship than it was about this specific really relationship. I mean, let's be real, she was in a lot of times, and what we saw was her almost being in a relationship by herself. She wasn't considering him his needs, his wants, his desires, what he wanted to eat that day. These are not things that crossed Molly's mind. And for me, I'm just like, from the first time they had the conversation about how work ends up being the focus, for me, I was like, this is the space to pause. This was a moment to sit in the discomfort of being told about yourself just a little bit. And I know that no one likes to be in discomfort. We all love lemonade, we all hate lemons that make no sense, but that being in that space of lemons of like, Okay, this feels uncomfortable. Let me take a full look at this. Let me let me notice where else in my life does this thing apply? Before I try to make lemonade, that was the work that was not done. So she just kept on doing. She just did things. She she moved so quickly into eliminated of Oh, I'm gonna fix it. It's funny one of my clients. You know, we've been talking about masculine and feminine energy, and that masculine energy, especially as it relates to the US, I would say, is about doing things productivity as a way to show that you have worth and value. And she immediately moved into masculine energy and let me do things to show you that this is worth it and this has value, and thereby I have worth and I have value. Yeah, he went immediately into fix it mode instead of let me sit here, let's let's explore a little bit more about what is here right now and what how this might be happening in other places of my life, and how now I can with thoughtfulness, with having experienced this fully, Now, how can we move forward to get it? Because she thought, how can I fix it? Not now, how can we fix it? So it's even in the context of that conversation of of you know, what are you fighting for and this is not really working, it is well, I can do this stuff. Yeah, I'm like immediately jumping in on herself and not being I'm like, you're not here with him? You yeah? With you? Yeah. And I also feel like a part of what raised her desperation was the fact that just last week she's had this fallout with Issa, right, So I think this is also her feeling like I cannot lose another important relationship because then I really have to look at myself lose an important relationship. She tossed that one away from pride because we did not. Desperation's exactly exactly, where's your willingness to work? Now? You know, like you're talking about time that you spent with Andrew. I'm like, what about time you spent with Issa? Right? Right? Yeah, I mean, and now that I think about it, basically, he basically used the same line on her that she used with Easa, like, well, I just remember that. Wow, It's just like man, this whole episode is nothing but an echo chambers. I'm like, girl, you said the same thing to Easta not last week, right, Like you're talking about what serves and what doesn't serve. I mean, but she was on I think from a petty place, I'm going to win and this is an extension of punishment and I'm expecting you to beg into brovel, Whereas he was actually at the point of I'm okay to let this go, like I don't I don't need I don't need this, and I'm okay to let it go. Whereas you know, she she frying, she act. This is to me that that thing people be like, oh, yeah, I'm un bothered. I was like, baby, just the fact that you told me you unbothered, let's me know just how bothered you are. Us Bothered is an action, It's a way of life, it is a way of movement. It is not a word, and it is certainly not something you get to say to somebody else, Oh I'm un bothered, Like you are bothered just because you told me, right, Yeah. So we see this scene in with her trying to, you know, ponder on the question. He's asked, like, what are you even fighting for and then we move on over we move on over to esis h all right, we just take a deep breath here. I just want to just say, you know, you was right, Oh my gosh. But listen, this is like, I think, the first time in my life where I have like not even wanted to be right, Like I'm like being wrong right right, I cannot. I mean even though I predicted it, there was still a piece to me that was shocked at what we saw unfolding this scene. So we see Lawrence comes over. You know, he's again happy that Tippany's okay, um, but we can clearly tell like something's going on with you. So he says, Condola came over last night, and here we go, right, first of all, the last night, I know what's talking? No more like what's what's happened here? Oh my gosh. So first of all we got to talk about though, how this entire scene was so beautifully shot, like we keep seeing back and forth to the conversation between East and Lawrence and the conversation between Condola and Lawrence, like beautiful masterful cinematography as always beautiful seeing was I was like, Yeah, what's the list is? I feel like I need to get on you to me or something and take a like beginner cinematography class to see how you even do any of this stuff, because it's just so master I mean, I think you got it itself the TV show. I'm still mastering myselfie. So we're not gonna go there for So we see him tell her um what we see Condola tell Lawrence in like that flashback that she's pregnant. Mm hmm listen, wow, So the chickens have come home to roost um and so he's of course is looking like what in the world, and so he shares, this is not anything that has happened since they've been together, right, So I think that's where her mind initially went, was you know, we just kind of got this thing started and now you are ready with her. But it sounds like this is from when Condola and Lawrence were actually together. Yeah, but why yes? And so we also see that Lawrence is, you know, kind of struggling with this information, and he asked her is this mine? And of course she was offended. Absolutely here if it wasn't ya, she be talking to your Wow. But still, hey, we ain't got jumped to conclusions. Right, all right, Clearly she has you know, done the math, I'm sure, and and you know may not have even been with anybody else. Um, So clearly it is she suspects that it is Lawrence's child or she knows that it's Lawrence's child. And so then we see you know him, did we see cut back to Issa and Lawrence like is she gonna have the baby? And then we see a cut back to Candola saying, yes, she just going to have the baby and that he can be he can be as involved as he would like to. Now, I feel like, you know, I can understand like where that maybe was coming from, but I also don't really feel like she meant that, And I really wish that people will stop saying that, Like almost nobody means that be as involved as you want to, Like we both made this, yeah, And I also don't feel like, you know, Lawrence definitely has had his moments, but I don't nothing that has happened in the course of these four seasons has made me suspect that he would not like want to be an involved child. I mean not ch'all father, right, But I also thought so maybe I am not remembering correctly, but wasn't. A part of what happened between Lawrence and Condola that led to like them basically breaking up was that she wasn't sure she wanted to have kids, and like thinking through like in the future, like that Lawrence wanted a family, and that maybe she didn't like that was part of it. In addition to like marriage. He was he was ready, he was ready to jump on in, and she was not ready. And I can definitely understand his confusion here is like, wait, you ain't any one, but you won't have my okay, yeah, so what do you I haven't quite been able to kind of make sense of that. She who can? I mean, it is a TV show. We ain't got all the answers, right, But but I did think, like, oh, okay, I thought she wasn't quite sure. Now. Of course, when we talk about things hypothetically, right, when we try to predict how we might feel in the future, that is not always a match for how we feel in reality. So it's very possible that at the time she was having that conversation she did not want to have kids, and then when she was pregnant then her mind change exactly because I mean, circumstances emotions, hormones, all these things will flood you and tell you what it is that you really want to do. It's easy to speak from the comfort of a couch without having to actually make any sort of decision. Uh, that type of mac it too, But when you're in it, you're in it, and that is that's a different space to be. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And of course you know there have been all this conversation online related to you, Well, if she was going to have the baby herself, why even tell Lawrence? And I don't I don't know that that's really an option. Um Like, even if you do ultimately end up, you know, parenting the child alone, I don't know that it's ever a good idea to not tell the other parents that the child exist. I think that fact, to me, is entirely unfair to decide unilaterally that you are going to keep the information about this being that this person helped to create from the other person. To me, I'm just like, nah, that's not cool to keep it a secret. Even if you are willing to raise the child on on your own, you are robbing somebody of a choice. Yeah, So I definitely would not agree with those those sentiments of her just like and even if she decided that she was going to rear the child on her own, Lawrence definitely should still know exactly. Yeah. Yeah, so we see he says like, oh, this is too much, which is interesting, right, But I also feel like it is a continuation of the growth that we feel like we've seen in her this season. Yeah, because she used to be willing to just okay m hm, and I was just like all right, asa being able to say like, this is too much, like asking the questions that she felt that she needed the answers to and then being able to say like, this is too much. Yeah, and you know whether or not this is too much, let me I need to I need space and time to think and allow me to come to a conclusion on my own or this is too much and this is over whatever that is just being in that space of I can't with this, and certainly can't with this right now. I think that for me, I'm just like number one way to speak up about what it is that you need in that moment and being able to say that this is too much and giving yourself whatever time and space that you need, and accident left from the conversation. So that you can consider what's next. Yeah. And I think we also see her have a moment before she says it's too much, where she says like just when I thought it was, and she doesn't finish the sentence, right, But I think in that moment she's grappling with, like you talked earlier, um, the grief of what this could have been. Right. So, even if we see them still together next season, it is not going to look like what she expected it would look like before she knew all of this information. Yeah, Because I mean, and this was pointed out. That's where all I do is talk about, is you, Um, but this has pointed out that it's just like we remember that when they were you know, I guess more broken up, in a better space, when she had that entire life dream sequence like together, if she thought that she was going to get that now that now that dream in some ways is gone because she's not going to be the first. She will never give him his first child, because that honor has already been it's already been taken. Yeah, So just there is going to be even if they get together, even if they're able to work it out, there's still the loss of what she thought could have been, and the fact that she's likely not going to be number one. Ye, his child is now going to be number one in theory. In theory, yeah, because we know that doesn't always happen. But yes, you're right, yeah, that there would be lots more energy related to, you know, helping to take care of the baby. M hmm. Yeah, yeah, I mean so, I definitely feel like she would be she would feel some type of way if he was not doing what she feels, right, Yeah, that's what I'm supping to. I don't don't feel like at him differently. Yeah, I don't feel like we've seen any signs again that he would not be involved, but of course you never know, but I don't think we've seen any signs really that he wouldn't. Yeah. So we see the sunset kind of on her and on the balcony on the day, and you know, she's kind of just like, oh, I'm just gonna smoke this away for a moment because let me take Although I was also in that same moment I was thinking about like I was thinking about Lawrence because now it's like, can he still be in San Francisco Tree, Well, I feel like that drastically changes, right, I mean because he in Condola are not together, so it's not like he she probably is not gonna be interested in packing up her life to move to San Francisco just because he got a new job. So I wonder what that means, Like does he still move or or does he stay stay now? Because I'm like a forty five minute flight might be okay for some by this relationship, but required times more immediate attention exactly, So um, like, well, and does this then and some will this revert him back some ways to season one? Him staying in a space where he doesn't like it, he's unfulfilled, so that he can show commitment or you know, be responsible in this way, So like, does he have to give up on the dream in a sense? Yeah, And I wonder, you know, we're kind of jumping the hands of predictions, but I wonder if we even see very much of Lawrence next season, right, like if he said has made the decision that you know, this feels like too much and it's not something she wants to do. I mean that Lawrence is still connected to the friend group because he's friends with Derek. But I wonder how much we even see of him if he andsa are not together? Who knows. So we closed the season, um with this Sean that we saw last week, the early shot of her walking somewhere saying hey, and we know now that it was Mercado. I don't know how how I missed that background information, but um, so she's walking into the Ethiopian restaurant, and of course once we know where she's going, we know who she's going to be. Like we know who we know now we see that it is Molly who has called. So she walks in, Molly saying, you know, thank you for coming in us to see as I'm glad you called. And I would like to say that is the energy that I needed in the first place. Listen, I needed Molly to make the call because that lets us know that Molly is contrite and that she understands fully the role that she has finally played in all the Shenanni. So what do you feel about Molly making the call? Now? I feel like I feel to me, it's it's almost tainted. Mm hmm um. On the one end, yes, you need to have the conversation, so it's all good. But on the other end of that, I'm just like, are you calling because Andrew's over? And that's what I feel like to me, yeah, right, if her and Andrew had not had this conversation and presumably broke up, I don't feel like she's calling Molly exactly. And Rafael Rafaela Fiallo Um one half of Afro Sexology, she said it might be that they're just drama bond, so not trauma bond, but drama bond that when they're both in the midst of trauma, they are each other's besties. They hold each other down, they support each other, or they have a relationship, but it's based in drama, not just like to me, that's that's kind of sad if that's what it is. Because we haven't seen that Molly knows how to be a friend to Issa on Issa's glow up. We haven't seen that Easa knows how to be a friend to Molly when she's in a real ship and trying to make it work. We have not seen it. And both of these now, both of them are in a space up so much going on, and they come back together it's tainted. Yeah, yeah, it definitely felt difficult, and I agree with a lot of that, right, But I also see how, of course, in the midst of both of these situations, that your best friend or the person who has been your best friend forever is the person you want to call, right Like we saw even some of this with Issa last week when she wanted to reach out to Molly because she wanted to talk through these things, right, So I get it, But like you also feel like, has there really been enough work done for us to be able to come together in this space to really support one another right now? Absolutely? Yeah, And I don't think we've seen that work. So my guests would be maybe that this conversation is like the beginning of them maybe at least trying to put some of that stuff on the table while also sharing the things that they are struggling with in that present moment. But we don't know. I'm hoping that both of them ended up on the doctor's couch. Well, that would see them well, definitely Molly back with Dr with Dr Ronda. Um. I don't know that Eaci would see Doctor Rounda. Maybe she would have a different therapist, but it's even then maybe finding somebody different so that they can both go to Oh yes, friendship there because I know that we don't we Like, there's no, Yeah, friendship therapy is not like a thing thing. I decided that my practice, we're making it a thing. I think it definitely can't be a thing. I mean it's basically like a form of couples therapy. Absolutely to me, I'm like, all these things impact to me sexuality. I mean, there's no there's no there's nothing that you can talk to me about that. I'm not gonna be like, yeah, that impact your sexually out. So I'm just like just the same with that, because i mean I get to thinking about people who come to therapy and you know, they they are the dark skinned friend and they're light skinned friends, don't have an understanding and they feel not seen, not heard by their friend groups. And how we do that work to help to help everybody understand everybody else's perspective and for there to be the appropriate amount of support given. So for me, it's the same sort of thing that I was doing in a couple of therapy, but I have been doing it with friends. And you know, Valerie, the my newest therapist, you know, I'm teaching her how to help to facilitate these conversations between friends because they're just like you know what, Friendship therapy is not a thing, and it should be because we have over prioritized romantic relationships the same way that we watched Molly do all season. She was willing to work on anything with Andrew, but she was not willing to work on anything with Yes. Yeah, so that would be great if we see them in friendship therapy next season. So in addition to them being on a couch with the new therapists, would or your other predictions of w what we might see in season five whenever we get it. I think we're gonna see masks. I see masks. No, you don't see masks. But honestly, I'm hoping that what we do see is maybe the season opener is um, I'm assuming that sometimes will have passed between this and that, but that we're watching continued work between Easta and Molly, that they're trying. That maybe we'll be seeing them use like therapy tools to try. And now I hear what you're saying. What I hear you're saying is this and what I'm and I love you and I want you to know that this is what I'm feeling and thinking. I feel like maybe we'll see some tools or at least some some attempt at trying to make things work a little bit better between them. Um, I'm actually hoping that we see a little bit more of the ex sended friend group. M I felt like for me this season it was missing more and I would like to see more of it. So, um, I'm hoping then that we're seeing that the village in a sense is coming together to really help support each other in different ways, because that is very necessary. We can have a best friend, but we still are part of a friend group, and that they may have and offer different perspectives that we should also value or that we can also value. So I'm hoping to see a little bit more of them. I personally, you know how I feel about Mysa and Lawrence. You know, I prefer Nathan, so we don't talk very much about it. They had that brief interaction. I think we will see more of Nathan next season too. I just I really appreciate it that that naked honesty that you know, like I felt I felt the way when I heard that you was back with him, and I was just like, go ahead, man, you know, speak you're true. If you don't speak that true, I really appreciated that because I'm just like, for me that that's the lesson. The lesson of what they needed all season long was in that one dialogue where he spoke his truth and then was just like, I just needed to put it out there, like, I'm not asking you to take responsibility for it. I'm taking responsibility for it, but I wanted to make sure that I communicated it and that I apologize for how I behaved. The Lasson, Yes, look at that good role modeling he was doing for them, like they Yes, then they'll help them figure out this communication piece. Although that might be kind of weird though right now that um, like, we may see the reverse of what happened when Molly and Andrew were together. Now if you know she and Andrew were broken up, now we see Nathan more in the picture like we saw Andrew Moore in the picture of this season, that might be interesting. Um. So I think that Lisa will be done with Lauren. I feel like her indication that this was too much is probably something that's gonna stick, um and that she will feel like, this is not really what I signed up for. So you're saying you're just gonna see the opposite of messy Issa, right, like we saw Mony call her out earlier this season. Yeah, I don't think. I feel like that is not something that she's gonna feel like it's gonna be a good fit for her life right now. Like she's worked really hard to try to get in this place with her career, um, you know, and was looking forward to, you know, maybe building this relationship with Lawrence for the second time. And I feel like this is going to be too much of a departure of what she was expecting. Yeah. Yeah, And I'm hoping that Nathan don't try no foolishness and let me just lie back. And I mean sometimes you know, people like, oh, I just I'm okay with just being your friend, but that's not what they mean. They mean, I'm gonna wait in the wings until things turn badly in your life, and then I'm gonna try to slide back up in there. And we don't even want to keep in mind how creepy we are. Yeah, well, I mean I feel like he has already said that he's already kind of set up for that, right, And I don't know that it feels really creepy, Like I feel like he can actually be a good friend to her because we saw him do that really most of this season. So he did still have feelings for her, but wasn't really trying to push up on her. Was really just supporting her by being a good friend. And I'm wondering if he had an agenda with that friendship. Well, I mean back in the day when we used to go to like gas stations and things like somebody might try to come and hit on you and be like you'd be like, oh I got a name, Like, oh, I'm just trying to be your friend. Well, I feel like he showed evidence of actually being a good friend, like the way he helped her with the block party and stuff like that. Um, now he does still have feelings. I mean, I think he's been clear about that, but it does feel like he can set some boundaries around that. So I suspect he will be back next season and that we see none are very little of Lawrence. I'm on when we see a little something something, I feel like we're gonna we're gonna have to know something, right but not because Tiffany works with Condola, right, she was there, Like how did they how did Issa and Condola get together? Tiffany's friend, but I don't know if they work together, if they are just friend some other way. But you might be right about that. You might be right about that. I'm like, well, maybe we see a little bit more up though. I feel like I feel like you feel that is not in the space to have a desire for messin us anymore, not in the same way. At least, I think that she knows what her limits are and it's trying to work within that limit. Mm hmmmmmmm. Yeah. Yeah. The rest I'm not so sure about. I think we will see Molly and Nesa at least trying to work on this friendship. I'm not quite sure how it's gonna go, but I think we will at least see them trying, because you know, that's how it ended, and you know, I think it's been really telling that the cast in every interview you hear them talk about talk about the fact that Molly and ESA's relationship is really the love story of the show. Um So I feel like we are not going to see that go away anytime soon, but we may see them continuing, so hopefully that better friends. I like get that there that their friendship is the love story of the show. I think We're very used to romantic love. We're not really used to seeing platonic love. Yeah, and we need to see that a little bit more. I think that, Yeah, we have some shows where we see that and it's like, okay, whatever, but this one is like the togetherness the partners. For me, that was like the first like seven or eight seasons of however many seasons of Gray's Anatomy, and I was like, man, this show is about the love that Meredith asked for Christina and nothing else. I'm looking like everything else is a side piece. And I feel similarly about this that it is about Molly and Issa specifically and their love and their love and friendship up and how they move apart and come together, that friendships can be problematic and still have longevity, that you can feel like the relationship needs to stop and do stop it, and that you still may come back together at another time. So like, I really I'm appreciating the ebbs and flows. I know that in some ways I was also in my get this limonade like, but I'm also I just love the way that they were able to tell the story and move things forward and through in this way because it felt so lovely yes, this finale definitely didn't give us the one fuzzies like the previous two episodes then, but I feel like it does very much mimic real life, right, that we can't always stay in the warm and fuzzy no, and that we can't that everything is not wrapped up with a pretty both yes, So like we're like, oh, you know, January New Year, knew me, and then come December we're just like, oh, look at all this stuff I did, And I'm just like, no, it's constantly in transition. Just just because you measure your life in years or quarters doesn't mean that that's how things wrap up, right, and that sometimes things just keep going. And this, for me, this entire season felt like real life in in a in a very different way almost just like oh, like that thing that sort of reminded you of whatever friendship that came to mind when you're watching them go through this turmoil. And for me, it was like watching everybody like learn to collectively hate Molly. And I'm just like, y'all half for y'all ar Molley. If y'all are Molly happy, y'all in a friendship with Molly, and y'all can point it out on the TV and talking about oh, used to need to do this and he used to need to do that. I'm looking like, mean, wow, what about your life? Yeah, I don't know about you. But I took this quiz and it said that I'm Kelly. I did not take the quiz. You didn't share that with me now Facebook, I was like, Oh, I'm telling apparently I care about people and I'm slightly inappropriate. Oh goodness, Oh my goodness, describe I mean again like the kids would say, points for me. I took it twice, trying to see if I can change my thing. I was like, no, I feel like a Molly or Issa. Nope, I got Kelly both times. Very fitting, very fitting. Well, this has been a pleasure to debrief on these episodes every week. I feel like this was very timely, gave us a little bit of a reprieve from all of the rest of the madness that feels like it has been happening in the world. And so we will likely be back for a season five whenever we get that to give y'all you asking me out in that he's going to wire you go with me circle yes, yes, box, So y'all stay tuned. And again, you know, we always want to hear the conversation and your thoughts about the season finale, so definitely share that with us on social media. So tell the people where they can find you. Again, Dr Donna, please do find me at a nod right on Instagram A n n O D that's my first name backwards r I G h T. And if you're just looking to get that colorism texturism work, then please come on over to the c B h G dot com and that's the Cocoa, Butter and Hair Grease all of her good stuff there. And you know, we'd be paying people to write, but people don't be wanting to write. So I'm just like, hey, I mean, it's not like we're not giving you like a million dollars a word or nothing like. I mean, we pay a very small but you know we do pay people, So there you go. So if you're interested in writing related to colorism, texturism, everything, cocoa butter, hair Greece world, then definitely hit her up. Yes, well, thank you so much for joining me. It has been a pleasure, it truly has. Thank you for inviting me. It's been such a pleasure to chat with Dr oriole will for these debriefs. Don't forget to check out the show notes that Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session one sixty for links to our previous conversations about Insecure, or to grab your copy of her book Cocoa Butter and Hair Grease. And please share your takeaways with us on social media using the hashtag TVG in session, and don't leave your friends out of the party. Be sure to share this episode with the other Insecure fans in your life. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you're looking for a little bit of extra support right now or needle place to just be, come on over and join us in the Yellow College Collective, where we take a deeper dive into the topics from the podcast and just about everything else. You can join us at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash y c C. Don't forget to check out the new episode of I May Destroy You Monday night at nine pm Eastern or stream it on HBO Max. Thank you all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon Take good care

Therapy for Black Girls

The Therapy for Black Girls podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a license 
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