The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
For this conversation I was joined by Licensed Psychologist, Dr. Mishelle Rodriguez. Dr. Mishelle and I chatted about what kinds of things we might address if Nova came into therapy following the release of her book, the way that we have seen many of the characters deal with big emotions this season, our thoughts about Darla and Ralph Angel seemingly reconnecting and what we’d love to see as this season wraps up.
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Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session once we need two of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. In today's episode, we're digging into this season of Queen Sugar. If you're a fan of the show, then you know that they've given us a lots of drama this season, and we've really seen lots of ups and downs in the relationships between the characters. So we'll be digging into all of that this conversation. But before we do, let's show some love to our sponsors. If you have been a part of the Therapy for Black Girls community for some time, you've likely heard me talk about the fact that I started Therapy for Black Girls as a blog in September after watching the Black Girls Rock awar show on b ET that year. The energy in that room was then and continues to be the kind of energy that Black girl magic is made of. So I'm thrilled that one of my favorite times of the year is here again. Black Girls Rock airs on BT this Sunday, September eight at eight pm seven pm Central. Former supermodel, activist and Black Girls Rock founder DJ Beverley Bond understands the need for spaces that celebrate and affirm Black women and girls. Black Girls Rock is truly that kind of space. This year's theme is our Legacy is Now. I mean every day we see examples of this, from Coco Golf to Congresswoman Ayana Presley too newly minted New York Times bestselling author Bossy Ickpy, Black women and girls continue to do the work of creating and securing a legacy. The always fierce and now Emmy nominating niece Nash is our host as Black Girls Rock Awards the excellence of brilliant actors Angela Bassett and Regina King, music and fashion superstar Sierra. The activists known as the mothers of the movement, Powerhouse producer Deborah Morton, Chase, and musical phenom Her Plus Monica, Erico Vadou, Ari Lennox, l Varner and Common are performing Black Girls Rock can't be missed, so be sure to be tuned in this Sunday, September eight at eight pm seventh Central on b ET and follow me at Hello Dr Joy on Twitter and join me as I live tweet about all of the looks and moments using the hashtag black Girls Rock. Now back to our episode for this deep dive into this season of Queen Sugar, I was joined by Dr Michelle Rodriguez. Dr Michelle has a group practice called Collaborative Change Makers. Her work focus is on helping people break patterns and create change in themselves, their relationships, and their communities. Her areas of specialization include relationship concerns, perfectionism, sports psychology, multicultural issues, and trauma. She's also the founder of the Melanin Collective, an online psycho educational resource and host of local events for black mental health. Through the Melano Collective, she's able to utilize her passion for incorporating black art and pop culture as a tool to start important conversations about black mental health and to bring the black community together to use its internal strengths and wisdom for healing and growth. Dr Michelle and I chatted about what kinds of things we might address if Novah came into therapy following the release of her book, the way that we've seen many of the characters deal with big emotions this season, our thoughts about Darla and Ralph Angel seemingly reconnecting, and what we love to see as this season wraps up. We love for you to join the conversation and share your thoughts with us as you listened, so please do so using the hashtag tpg in session on social media. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr Michelle, no problem. I'm excited to be here. Yeah, so I am excited for you to join us. So I'm sure that a lot of you knew that this episode was coming. We have got to do some catching up on Queen Sugar, right. So, there has been so much going on this season and it almost feels like where do you even start? But I think we have to start with the biggest kind of you know, storyline. I think that we've seen this season is Nova and this book. Yes, so you know, for those of you have been paying attention, Nova kind of wrote this memoir slash tell all that feels like it told everybody's business, it scept her own, and the fallout of that has been, of course tremendous. So I am curious to hear Dr Michelle your thoughts about what you think Nova was thinking with releasing this book. Well, it's funny because to me when I saw Nova, it just is like this thread to me throughout the brothers and sisters is that first of all, they want to do big things, They want to make a difference, They want to shine light on problems and fixed problems, and often just completely loose sight of what's happening along the way to achieving whatever the end goal is. And so to me, she just seemed like she was onto something kind of like her magic, her vision, her passion, and like she's done other times before, she just set a lot of things on fire, burnt a lot of bridges, and really wasn't being honest with herself about the potential impact, obviously not honest with her family about what she was doing and how it was going to impact them, right, And you know. That's the point that I'm kind of really stuck on, I think, and I found myself imagining, like, Okay, if Novadh came into my office, and probably I mean so because she didn't really think this I think was that big of a deal. Like I think she used the words of like I'm trying to like tell the truth and set us free kind of thing. It really feels like she didn't anticipate any real negative consequences from this, So I'm thinking she likely would not have come into the office before of the book release, but it's very likely right then, seeing how this has kind of caused so many negative consequences, she might like seek therapy after the book has been released and you know, knowing what has happened. So what kinds of things that you think you might talk with her about if she were to come into your office, like post book release, now that all of this stuff has happened. I think that the first part would have to be creating enough safe space for her to just talk about her feelings, because we really have seen her experiencing grief, really broken hearted at the estrangement from her family, really shocked and surprised, and so I think initially would just have to be creating enough safety for her to talk about those things and understand that those things are real and that they're valid, and really probably just even getting that experience of feeling her own feelings and getting curious, because I think what I see happen a lot with her and with the family and even with you know, with all of us in real life, is that big ideas, big feelings, um and we had in motion without really unpacking sorting through. And so I think creating that space without judgment, because you know in the book she was judging everybody, and I think when we're in that mode, we're often judging ourselves too, and not just creating space where we can look at what we think and feel and see what's there and what can be gained from it. So I think that would be my first step with her, and then I think asking her to be able to do the same thing for some of the people in her family. So what is she seeing and what has she heard in terms of how it's impacted them, and can she hold that same kind of curiosity and compassion and perspective taking for them? I think one of the other things that would probably be kind of the longer term work is getting her to really dig into Okay, what are your goals? Um, what are your values? And what are the signs when you're off track from that? And how do we anticipate those signs as opposed to just be on the surprised side that we've gotten really disconnected from our values and trying to achieve some in goal. Oh. I like that. I think that that would have been really helpful, right, because, like you said, kind of trying to think through like Okay, what maybe the consequences and what what am I really hoping to be the outcome from this kind of book writing activity, like what am I thinking will happen, and then comparing that, of course versus what has actually happened. Yeah, because I definitely think that she would say family above all are pretty darn close to that, and so to be so and also transparency, I think would be one of her really basic values, and to be so out of line with that without even the awareness that that was happening to me says that there's not kind of a continual checking in with that that she does. Got you, Yeah, And I agree with you. I think family is incredibly important, which is why I think so many people were shocked when and she she seemed to go so off course with this book. I mean, and and again, I think you know, when you're hiding things from like loved ones in your life, I think that is an indication that you are off track. Right, So nobody knew the contents of the book before you know, it was kind of released and kind of it was leaked um to Charlie of course during that meeting. And so I think that could be sometimes a place to spend some time with her incessions to to kind of say, Okay, it looks like you were not wanting to share this before a certain time. I'm wondering what that was about, because it definitely felt like she was keeping secrets from them um and didn't really want them to know the contents of the book. Yeah, And I loved in this last week's episode, like she had that moment of realness where she said, like, I really didn't want anybody to tell me no. And I think sometimes one of the cool things about therapy is that you know that person. You know, the counsel is not going to tell you no, but they're gonna ask you to really sit with like what does it cost of this, you know, and who does an impact and how And if we're okay with that, then yeah, let's let's move forward. But if we're not, let's sit with that tension. M hmm. Yeah. I love that you said that, Dr Michelle, because, like you said, like, we're not going to tell you know, in therapy, right, like, all decisions are your own, um, and we're really just kind of creating a space for you to kind of talk through them and wagh the pros and cons and think about, you know, the consequences. But like you said, she did not want to be told no, which is why even more likely that she would not have sought out the services of a therapist before she released this book. Yeah. Yeah, So something else that I really thought was lovely and I even tweeted about this is the moment I think this was two episodes ago when she and Charlie really were able to kind of have this really vulnerable conversation. I think in terms of like all of this pain that they both were holding onto related to their relationship, and how amazing it could have been if they could have had this conversation you know, two or three years ago, Like would the book have still happened if there had been space in their relationship for them to kind of come to that place sooner. Yeah, I mean, I think to me a theme throughout this season is like these disconnecting relationships that don't have to happen if we're doing the hard work and having the hard conversations. And I agree, like they were able to sit down and hear really for the first time what something was like from the other person's perspective. I think we often assume that because we were both there in the same moment, that we experienced it the same. I think we often assume that we know the wise of why somebody did something, and it's almost as if in that moment they realized that the other person had their whole own world going on, their own struggles um that they didn't know about, and if they could have communicated about that, something really different could have happened. Yeah. Like you said, they both were in the room but had a completely different vantage point of how all of those events from. However, many years ago, when was Charlie in college, I think she said, or Nova was in college. You Nova was in college. The Nova was in college and went to visit like completely different recounts of what happened during that time, and so only in this moment where they able to get to the truth as they both saw it after there has been this big blow up. And I think that that is something else that I've seen that's kind of been a theme for both Nova and Charlie is that they can't or it seems really difficult for them to get to these spaces of vulnerability unless there's a complete meltdown. And so, you know, we have seen that, I think a couple of times with Charlie, like I don't remember which season it was, where she kind of had the panic attack related to something happening in the mill. And then of course we saw it recently this season where she is at the bar drunk and Nova, you know, comes to rescue her, and it just seems like Charlie cannot get like she can't access her feelings or really kind of put her finger on what's happening with her until things have really completely boiled over. Yeah, I actually thought it was a little bit um ironic. I think when they're when they're not in touch with their own self awareness, they get kind of self righteous and judge of of each other. And so when Nova says, you know, I didn't want to be told no, I think in that moment, Charlie is still kind of in a in a self rightious and judge place, but she does the same things in her own behavior. She gets really set on something and isn't doesn't have a lot of people who she's talking with her thinking process about, and just does it. However, and so in some ways they really have a lot more commonality around that pattern of both getting disconnected from their values as they're trying to move forward and make things happen, and getting disconnected with their own coping with their own feelings. And honestly, I think that's that's more common than we want to admit for high achieving people. How achieving black people is that we have big things that we have a lot of magic, a lot of things that we want to see happen, but we put healing and processing on the back burner, and in these their ways and starts seeping out. So can you talk more about how therapy might help to take care of that disconnect, Like, how can we maybe use therapy to help us stay connected to our values and stay connected to the things that are important to us as we're doing some of this big work. Yeah, So in my work, a lot of times, my my practice is called collaborative page makers. And so I'll talk about change maker fundamentals that like self awareness, the ability to have a way of checking in with yourself. How am I feeling, what am I carrying, what do I need? Who am I connected to? What do those connections look like right now? Like asking those questions of yourself on a day to day basis and just little brief, you know, two minute check ins here and there helps us to have a better sense of where we're going, kind of like how you were saying, we're realizing like the first symptoms of a cold before we're like laid out somewhere. And so that self awareness and then from there having self care that really looks at specifically what do I need and then how do I go about getting it? And also like the other thing that I'll talk about a squad, so our social support, what does that look like? And I think when with any one of the characters in the show, if they had a place where they were regularly checking in about those things, then they would be able to make adjustments before things got so carried away, like in the moment when Queen Sugar burns down and you know, Charlie is trying to figure out, how do I set this thing back right, how do I solve the problem? How do I get the other guys? And she was able to stop and see how badly she was hurting and how much she needed connection, support, rest, and to attend to those things and then regroup and set back about the business of getting things done. I think it would prevent a lot of the problems that they are seeing. And so I think it's just having you know, a place like therapy or even if it's like a girl's night something like that, where you're able to to reset, and then having some regular practices of of how you maintain it in between. Yeah. I think it's interesting that you bring up the whole idea of social support, because we really don't see them with like friends or other people besides their family. And even with those relationships, of course, you know, they are typically keeping a lot of things from one another. So even though they're not for us to support each other, they do have their family members, but they don't typically share everything and get support in the ways that it might be helpful. Yeah, yeah. I think it's like a good check in question for ourselves, like who are the people with whom I dropped all the armor and get vulnerable? Who do I let see it all? And I think also like who do I accept me back from? But who if I really like empowered in my life to consistently give me feedback? I think it was really cool this season, like Micah even checking in with the older guys about how to make decisions in his relationships. Um, But I think with the other family members, it's often people having to kind of push to give them helpful feedback as opposed to them just have and go to people where they're like, Okay, this is my next move. Does this seem like I'm in a healthy place? Does this seem like I'm in touch with my values? Like I need somebody else outside of me sometimes to look and tell me where I'm really at. So I want us to take a step back bafter, Michelle, because you just said something that I don't know that I've heard before, this idea of somebody feeling empowered to give you feedback? So what would that look like? Like? How would you empower someone else in your life to give you feedback? I think it's it's and again, I you know, I'm a big person on boundaries and people earning the right to to get close and see your vulnerable size. But I think when you know that people have done that, when they've consistently given you good feedback, it's saying like, uh, you know, for me, for example, if I'm launching a new thing in my business and and and trying to do something that is big, letting some people that are close to me, no, this is where I'm at. If you see me not doing the things that take care of me, say so. You know, if I'm missing something here about myself, please say so. And just asking for the feedback so regularly that it's it's it's it's just a normal part of conversation and people don't have to wonder does Michelle want to hear what I say? Or is it safe enough? Do she wants that feedback? So this kind of feels like it goes back to your earlier point about having difficult conversations, and this feels like it could be one of those difficult conversations, right like if you don't quite know if somebody is okay with feedback, and that it feels like it's the kind of thing that only comes with time, and like you say, it proving that they can handle that they are they can they can protect your boundaries, that they appreciate your boundaries, that they can maintain those boundaries and be able to create a space where you can both probably give their feedback to one another. Yeah, I agree. I mean I think, for example, like you talked about it, if um, you know, if no one knows that Aunty is typically somebody in her life who she can go to and be transparent and good to get good feedback from, and now she's high being, then that's probably a sign of unhealth. And we could almost say that with any one of them. Um. I think a really poignant um moment in this season for Darla, she's wrestling with trying to stay sober, is when the new guy that she's dating points out to her, you know, again, he's giving her feedback. It's not necessarily feedback that she has invited, but that you know, he can kind of see her drowning a little bit, and she kind of brushes the feedback away and isn't wanting to go talk to like her sponsor somebody that should be kind of empowered in her life to tell her when she's at And so I think, like you said, when when we're when we're hiding, it's usually a signus some unhealth. There there's nobody that we can really let in to help us sort through things. And Dr Michelle, you also also mentioned this idea of like in which spaces can you really take the mask off? In which spaces can you really be vulnerable? And I feel like a lot of the characters, probably most of the women characters for sure, UM do have like different flavors of this. But I think Charlie comes to mind in terms of like wanting to have this certain image. Um. You know, we have kind of seen the transition of her character. You know, she kind of started the show and we found out about this affair her husband has had, and you know, so she feels like it feels like to me, she's the one who has struggled a lot with UM this image of who she she of who she wants people to think she is, versus how she's really feeling inside. And I think, like you talked about before, a lot of us struggle with that, right, Like we want to have this image of kind of having it together or um, you know, kind of doing well in life, and we don't always feel like that inside. So what are some of the steps you can take too, Maybe either find those people where you can be vulnerable with or doing some of that work internally so that you can even be honest with yourself about how you might be struggled. Yeah, I think probably for me, a lot of the starting place for this is just even being able to name. And I think I've gotten this recently from doing some of the Brine Brown work. Who is this avatar that I'm trying to be? Like, let me give that some descriptors, So you know, I want to be my Olivia Pope self. I want to be my like um, Beyonce Stelf, like really naming, I want to be smart and on top of things all the time, and and figuring out who this avatar is that we're trying to live into, and really coming to some acceptance that that is not possible, that Olivia Pope, Carrie Washington beyonest like, none of those people are that all of the time, and that even if they were, like it wouldn't be a three dimensional, healthy person. And then I think coming to terms with the parts of ourselves that we don't like. Like, one thing I say a lot is that we're all our own mix of magic and mess and have to own both that we can't just and often there's like different sides of the same coin. So like when I think about the Border Loans, like they love hard, they commit to making change, they go all in, but they again, they don't always reflect, they don't always make time to be still, and they don't always take care of themselves the way that they need to. And so I think, in some ways, slowly but surely, Charlie has been forced to look at the mess to get more comfortable with different parts of her personality. But I think the tendency to want to bury it again when things get stressful and go back to the coping mechanisms that she's known as like just appear strong and powerful. I think under stress, a lot of us just go back to the coping mechanisms that make us feel the most comfortable at least vulnerable, right, which is typical, right, Like we go back to the things that are familiar with us. Yeah, But again I think that when we've learned how to move with both the magic and the mess, as opposed to having to hide or think we're only worthy ones. We get rent of the mess. I think that's where the really cool stuff happens. I agree. I agree. So on the previous episode that we did UM about Nova, we talked about like her attachment style and like these different relationships that we she we've seen her in, and we see now this season that um, what's his name, Calvin is back on the scene, and so you know, for a couple of episodes now he's kind of trickled back into her life, and in this most recent episode we see him saying that he is really ready to like make this serious. He's willing to move and all of this stuff. And it feels like when that was kind of just maybe an idea or a possibility, Nova was on board, But now that it seems like it could be really real, it feels like to me, she's kind of retracting. Um what do you think that that's about for her? Again? I mean, I almost think it's a little bit like Charlie. Like I think Nova has an avatar of herself who she wants to be, and it's kind of one dimensional, and so every time she's with somebody else, there's something about it that makes it really easy to reject the relationship. And I think one of the good things is that she's been forced to have some more real conversations, like when Mica challenged her about you know, do you think that he's ever been involved in police brutality, Like having questions about what's real as opposed to just be intoxication of the feelings. But it's it's gonna be really interesting to see where this goes. I mean, I like that they are talking more and talking more about what's real and talking more about more of the the nuance of their relationship. But for example, like they've they've never really even processed the event I think was that the end of last season when they were out together and somebody spit in her face, and so I think that's one of those moments that it's like, what does our relationship look like in the real world? Mm hmm? This house, how does it work? And I think that's what you figure out when the long distance person comes and lives close. So I don't know. To me, it's it's interesting because I think they're doing some of the work of talking, but whether or not she can stay in all of that realness and do kind of the day to day conversations and compromises of being close to somebody. I think we have yet to see if that's the case, right, Yeah, So it kind of is to be continued. I guess we'll see. So, speaking of rekindling relationships, we now see Ralph Angel and Dorla looking as if they may resume a relationship, but are definitely getting closer at this point. And so I'm curious to here, Um, and I know you did a video and this recently, your thoughts about what it looks like, you know, with them kind of making it looks looking like they're going to be resuming a relationship. Yeah, so this one, I think I have mixed feelings about to that that cliffhanger that we had where you know, she just got done talking about the really traumatic experiences of sexual assault that she had and her being kind of so wide open and vulnerable and and also just talking about what it was like to relapse. And so then in that moment for it to look like they're gonna jump back into being involved together and also do that without communicating with the other people that they started relationships with, that to me look like a disaster, and then making that to me look like, Okay, we need to pause and have conversations and again like checking with ourselves, what do we really want, what are we really feeling, what do we really need? But you know, we have this most recent episode and it looks like again at least at the moment, that they're slowing down and having more of these conversations um and at least Ralph Angel talked to the person that he was with and admitted and he just really wasn't in a place to be in a relationship with her and what his feelings really were. So all of that to me looks like health. You know, I would be interested in, you know, gonna she's gonna reconnect with her sponsor, she going to talk about that. Is he going to be able to really respect her process of recovery because I know in the past she would be trying to do things towards her health and he would be kind of dismissive of it. So I guess my hope would be for them that they continue to kind of not rush in, but have the conversations to figure out how do we make this work in real life? And what is your concern about the rushing, Like what are you afraid would happen if they rushed. I think the thing is that they both have Obviously, they have attraction and they have chemistry, and I think those things are great, and they have um a child together and so that bonds him in a lot of ways. But I also think there's kind of the fundamental things that we need within ourselves to be healthy and then within a relationship. And so I think for Darla feeling like she's back on our feet in recovery and that she's being able to talk with other people and not just kind of with the people that currently know what's going on with her, that she's just being able to kind of cope and bee a whole and then come to the relationship as a whole person. I think, you know, even with um Ralph Angel, my main concern would be he's gone back and forth in terms of with her about his ability to really respect her as a whole, strong, dynamic person and sometimes just really being demeaning and dismissive to her because of her addiction history. And so I think that his other relationship was really calling him to grow and do hard work and to be with somebody who wasn't maybe as dependent on him and so, you know, I don't I don't think any of these things mean that they can't or I actually think that there's a lot of great things about their relationship. But I think if they're not talking kind of like we've been talking about in all these different areas and having the hard conversations that they're having now, it'll be easy to just kind of fall back into bad patterns. Right. I agree with you. I think my concern in watching them UM is that, you know, I think that there is a way that Ralph Angel can be there to support Dorla in her recovery UM and you know, continuing to co parent without them necessarily having to be together. And it it felt like the intensity of everything that had happened, you know, with her um realizing and then sharing the sexual assault, like it just feels like there was a lot of emotion going on, and so I just wonder, I I agree with you that, you know, can we slow this down and look look at everything that was happening as opposed to kind of feeling overwhelmed by this emotion and that then making you think, Okay, this means we have to be back together. Right? Yeah, I remember a long time ago, somebody was telling me that not everybody that you have really great chemistry with can you build a life with. And I think that's what they have to figure out, is what went wrong before and have we changed enough UM and her whole enough individually to to build a life that works together. I think my big hope too, I know that Blue doesn't know now, but my hope would be that UM that I think the work that they've been forced to do with the co parenting has been great and so UM, I think my hope for him to be that they would be really clear before they decided to be back together, so that he's not really one of our roller coaster ride with them. Mm hmmm, yeah, because it feels like UM and I think they had a conversation about you know, was Blue even going to be told that like mom was struggling again, because I think at this point we haven't even seen him like talk to mom in a couple of days. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I think she was like, if she's not enough place yet where she's feeling like she can be with her son, then it's it's hard to imagine that she's in a place to begin or antech relation chick mm hmmmmmmm, good point. You know again, it just worked internal work to do to just see what's possible. Yeah. Yeah. So something that I have been pleased to see um this season is it feels like um Vy has been doing a better job at protecting her boundaries this season. Um So one, it felt like she did a really good job of saying, you know this, this thing with Nova was incredibly hurtful. You've dug up all this stuff from my past and I just don't feel like I can move past this right now, so I need you out of my life. Um And also, once all of this came out and she felt like she was in, you know, a bit of a weird space in terms of her relationship, she asked Hollywood for some space. So it feels like she has been doing a good job I think this season of kind of recognizing what she needed in the moment and asking for that. I agree, And I think the storyline with her has been really powerful and it's interesting because I think she's had to I mean again, nobody would ask for their trauma to show back up on their doorstep the way that it literally did with her. But I think it's shown her where her limitations are in big ways, and and it's forced her to say and this is what I can do, and this is what I can't do. But I think it's amazing, like even as she's been doing that work, she's doing a great job of honoring her boundaries but also growing and stretching UM. I thought that the fact that she was able to be there for Darla, who's somebody else who she really hasn't had a lot to do, it was a really powerful moment in the season. Yeah, I agree, you know, I mean, because she and Darla have not had the closest relationship, right, Um, So for for UM to be able to see her in the park and cliently and clearly tale something was off, and then to be able to support her in the way that she did, I thought was incredibly powerful. Yeah. And I think that one of the things with boundaries is that they often require checking in, and especially I think in the aftermath of trauma, it's like, what boundary do I need right in this moment to feel safe? And then as I keep moving, how do I adjust that? And so I think it was a great thing how she asked Hollywood for space, and it was great that he was able to respect and honor that and not take it too personally and just be a great um partner and healing for somebody who's experiencing trauma. But then you see her gradually be able to engage with him more. And even while she's not even talking to uh Nova, she's still you see her talk, you know, praying for Nova. And so there's these ways in which the boundaries aren't these big, big walls that don't change, but that she's she's still doing the work and and checking in with herself about what she needs. Yes, I thought that that was like a good way of modeling. I was also really really impressed, and you know, it just feels like the writers took really good care of how they handled the whole situation with Darla realizing that she had been sexually assaulted, because I think what can happen unfortunately sometimes is uh, you know, somebody will share their story and then there's all these questions asked and like well what were you thinking? And you know, that kind of thing, And it really felt like ye did a good job of holding space for that and really helping Dolts to recognize like, no, there was no way you could have consensed to this, Yeah, And I think especially sometimes in the black community, the ways in which we bury trauma or question it, it just complicates the healing. And so the fact that not only on VI but also Ralph Angel were able to just listen and hold space and um offer just humanity and compassion, it was amazing, Yeah, because that was definitely a place where it could have gotten worse fast, right right, exactly exactly. So what other predictions do you have for the season dot Michelle, what do you think we are going to see? I think we have two episodes left for this eithen Um. What do you think we're going to see as the season wraps up? Well, And I think one of the things I'm kind of excited to see what it looks like, although I have no idea what that will be, is what is going to grow out of Hollywood's idea about creating this safe space for men. I think the work that he's been doing is really cool and just the way that you know, I think in a healthy relationship, you're able to be vulnerable and then you guys each support each other towards your goals and dreams, and so as he's kind of had his AHA moments, about men not having space to process their thoughts, feelings, traumas, et cetera, and now kind of wanting to create this space. I'm really curious to see what that's gonna look like. I also think that the borderlines the siblings, especially when they are on the same page, they are forced to be reckoned with and so seeing how Nova and Charlie are potentially now working together to deal with some of the difficulties that are happening, I'm interested to see what they're able to accomplish too. Yes, because it does feel like, you know, they had that one conversation where they were very vulnerable with one another, and it seems like that really kind of set them back on the path to healing with one another. But it feels like there is so much to unpack between Charlie and Nova. I hope that we see them continuing to do that work before one another, um like having those difficult conversations as opposed to like, Okay, we had this one great moment and so now we're just gonna like forget that all of this other stuff is still happening, because I think then we are just waiting for the next blow up until there's like this huge separation between them again, right, Yeah, And I think that that's a big part of this the book, which you know again that's like kind of how everything started this season, everything out of it, every thing being out in this one big thing that nobody can digest or process is going to be too much for any family, any relationship really. But I mean it revealed how much trauma and issues they have that they haven't really talked about and that they haven't really been dealing with. And so I think the thing going forward now is how do they continue these conversations. And there's like these little hints of of reconciliation happening in different places, like between Vayan Darla, between Charlie and Nova. It will be interesting to see what happens between Nova and aunt by Um. But I think, kind of like we've talked about in all of these relationships, one of the big questions is do they continue to do this work of communicating with each other and being self aware within themselves? M Because I I forgot I mean, we touched on this a little bit, but all of the drama happened with Nova's book and then we have the fire, right, and so then attention is kind of diverted from all the drama that has happened with this book, and now we're working on like saving the meal and what's gonna happen and all of that stuff. So I think that that happens, you know, in our lives beyond just Queen Sugar, right, Like something will happen and then you know, something else happens, and so we don't actually do the work of healing from the first thing, but now we're kind of problem solving on the second thing. So it really is important to get back to that first thing because that work is not done. Yeah, yeah, And I think that's the the struggle was that often we're waiting for that right time to have the conversation and you know, we can't wait forever um. But also we don't just want to jump in the middle of it, you know, in ways that overwhelmed people. And so yeah, it's it's it's hard because life keeps happening and exactly and it always will of course. So did this Dr Michelle bring up any resources for you? So some of the themes that we've talked about, are there any particular books or other resources that you find yourself recommending to clients that maybe kind of tied into some of the things we've talked about today. Yeah, so some of the ones that I'm really loving, especially at the moment. I'm a big Alex l fan. And she just released a new journal, and I think that journaling is a way to grow that self awareness and to keep looking inside and saying, Okay, what's there? What do I need to talk to other people about? So she has one called Today I affirm that she just came out with it. I think is great. And then while I was in there those books are looking for that, when I actually found another one called Notes to Self by Lisa Curry, and it's really cute because it's kind of graphic and and uh it has drawings and different things in ways to kind of just on a really quick basis check in with yourself. The other thing that I would recommend is the Burnet Brown books. I just think that she has in her research done a really great job of practicals of helping us figure out how do we cultivate vulnerability, how do we deal with our imperfections, and if we're going to be people trying to really live big and make changes, how do we do that in a way that's healthy and sustainable, and of course us we are big fans of Burnet Brown's work here on the podcast. It feels like every two or three episode somebody else who is recommending one of her books, so they, of course all are already in our book recommendation section. So where can people find you, Dr Michelle? Where can they find out more information about your work? As well as any social media handles that you want to share, Dr Michelle on both Facebook and Instagram. And then my website is Change Makers Counseling dot com perfect and of course we will include all of that in the show notes for everybody who wants to find that later. Well, thank you so much, Dr Michelle. I really appreciate you spending some time with us to share this information. No problem, thank you. I'm so grateful that Dr Michelle was able to join us this week to dig into Queen Sugar to get more information about her and her practice and the resources she shared. Be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session one two, and please make sure to share this episode with the other Queen Sugar fans in your circle and share your takeaways with us either on Twitter or in your I G stories using the hashtag tv G in Session. I also have a few very important announcements for you this week, So for all of my Atlanta listeners, I'll be in conversation with Dr Key Hallman, the incredible founder of the Village Market a t L on Sunday, September twenty two at five pm, and we'll be chatting about prioritizing our mental health as black women business owners and how taking care of ourselves helps us to thrive in life and in business. So I love for you to join us for this conversation. The link to grab your tickets is Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Dr Key and it will be included in the show notes so that you can find us easily. I was also recently interviewed on the Brave Not Perfect podcast, all about having the courage to take up space and why it's so important that we not be afraid to make mistakes. The link to that episode is also in the show notes, so please check it out and don't forget to join me this weekend to watch the Black Girls Rock Awards show airing on BET at eight p m Seventh Central. I'll be live tweeting over at Hello, Dr Joy, so join me to chat all about the looks and moments that are sure to keep us talking. And don't forget to join me this weekend Sunday, September eight to watch the Black Girls Rock Award Show airing on BT at eight p m. Seven Central. I'll be live tweeting over at hello, Dr Joy, so join me to chat about all of the looks and moments that are sure to keep us talking. Remember that if you're searching for a therapist in your area, be sure to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into this topic and meet some other sisters in your area, come on over and join us in the Yellow Couch Collective where we take a deeper I've into the topics from the podcast and just about everything else. You can join us at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash y c C. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take it care