You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin from News Talks ab Right.

You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin from News Talks ab Right.

When it comes to building design and planning in New Zealand, we just don't seem to be getting it quite right, do we. A story in The Herald has raised concerns, highlighting an issue with overheating houses. The problem is impacting tens of thousands of terraced houses in Auckland and I'm sure another sunny parts of New Zealand. One man who warned of this issue years ago is independent urban planner, designer and strategic development expert Bruce Ware And Bruce joins me.

When it comes to building design and planning in New Zealand, we just don't seem to be getting it quite right, do we. A story in The Herald has raised concerns, highlighting an issue with overheating houses. The problem is impacting tens of thousands of terraced houses in Auckland and I'm sure another sunny parts of New Zealand. One man who warned of this issue years ago is independent urban planner, designer and strategic development expert Bruce Ware And Bruce joins me.

Now, good morning, Good morning friendships.

Now, good morning, Good morning friendships.

So tell me how long ago did you see this issue coming?

So tell me how long ago did you see this issue coming?

Oh? Look, I to be honest, I was aware of it as a young graduate and you know, we were sort of I was quite a sort of classic system. We could see the difference between new buildings and traditional buildings. But you know, I fell into the trap myself the house twenty five years ago, and even as a freestanding house on two levels of getting overheating issues and cerving parts of the house. So learned the hard way.

Oh? Look, I to be honest, I was aware of it as a young graduate and you know, we were sort of I was quite a sort of classic system. We could see the difference between new buildings and traditional buildings. But you know, I fell into the trap myself the house twenty five years ago, and even as a freestanding house on two levels of getting overheating issues and cerving parts of the house. So learned the hard way.

What is the main issue around how these houses have been built.

What is the main issue around how these houses have been built.

Look, fundamentally, it's a different way of constructing. So the moment, we're talking about very very compact footplates and we're talking about party walls. So one of the issues we start with is the way we even lay out developments for them. So we've got a sort of a suburban mindset and we're trying to do an urban development, and that's where the issue arises from fundamentally.

Look, fundamentally, it's a different way of constructing. So the moment, we're talking about very very compact footplates and we're talking about party walls. So one of the issues we start with is the way we even lay out developments for them. So we've got a sort of a suburban mindset and we're trying to do an urban development, and that's where the issue arises from fundamentally.

So it's insulation, for example, let's throw that out there. We know that there's a lot of regulations now about the insulation that you need to have in a new build. Does that cause an issue or that cause a house, doesn't it?

So it's insulation, for example, let's throw that out there. We know that there's a lot of regulations now about the insulation that you need to have in a new build. Does that cause an issue or that cause a house, doesn't it?

Yeah, that calls a house. So when you and it definitely makes a contribution. But the problem you have is.

Yeah, that calls a house. So when you and it definitely makes a contribution. But the problem you have is.

That if if you sort of get back to the basics of it, you want windows and doors, and that's all great, but you're in a really compact living and environment.

That if if you sort of get back to the basics of it, you want windows and doors, and that's all great, but you're in a really compact living and environment.

We all know that heat rises, and we and you know that we want soul again and all those good things. But you want some at different times of the day and for different reasons. So you want morning sun to warn the house up, and you want at a cooler in the afternoon when it's blazing into your living court and we sort of but everybody's been told that north facing is the best and to have big lots of glazing and you know, passive soul again and all those good things. The problem is when once you get to three level dwellings, you imagine it's heat compounding as it rises up the building, and unfortunately, by the time you get to top levels, it's getting pretty damn hot. Particularly like you said, in Auckland and Hamilton, Tarong and places like that. You just have to get.

We all know that heat rises, and we and you know that we want soul again and all those good things. But you want some at different times of the day and for different reasons. So you want morning sun to warn the house up, and you want at a cooler in the afternoon when it's blazing into your living court and we sort of but everybody's been told that north facing is the best and to have big lots of glazing and you know, passive soul again and all those good things. The problem is when once you get to three level dwellings, you imagine it's heat compounding as it rises up the building, and unfortunately, by the time you get to top levels, it's getting pretty damn hot. Particularly like you said, in Auckland and Hamilton, Tarong and places like that. You just have to get.

Airflow, gotcha. So the main issue is the size of the windows that we face north so that we get all this beautiful sunshine, but we haven't thought about how we're going to move that air through the house. Is that right?

Airflow, gotcha. So the main issue is the size of the windows that we face north so that we get all this beautiful sunshine, but we haven't thought about how we're going to move that air through the house. Is that right?

Pretty much? So? I mean, when you think about it, we actually built terrace hous I mean, terrace houses have been built for hundreds of years around the world and in similar climates to what we've got, and in fact, we did it really really well, you know, in early Auckland and other traditional centers, and then it lost favor and we went into a suburban model, and we expanded and we had sprawl and now we're coming back in and we're trying to retrofit, and we're trying to intensify and where it's really great for developers and they can make a better margin and all the rest. But the problem is the standards standards are designed for something well, they're just not fit for purpose fundamentally, and so you and even the way we lay out our developments, you know, if you're lucky enough to do a greenfield's development and you're putting in terrace houses, you want to try and get a wider house so that you get as much opportunity and efficiency for you know, obviously venting it. But you'll see most of the terrace houses that have done long and.

Pretty much? So? I mean, when you think about it, we actually built terrace hous I mean, terrace houses have been built for hundreds of years around the world and in similar climates to what we've got, and in fact, we did it really really well, you know, in early Auckland and other traditional centers, and then it lost favor and we went into a suburban model, and we expanded and we had sprawl and now we're coming back in and we're trying to retrofit, and we're trying to intensify and where it's really great for developers and they can make a better margin and all the rest. But the problem is the standards standards are designed for something well, they're just not fit for purpose fundamentally, and so you and even the way we lay out our developments, you know, if you're lucky enough to do a greenfield's development and you're putting in terrace houses, you want to try and get a wider house so that you get as much opportunity and efficiency for you know, obviously venting it. But you'll see most of the terrace houses that have done long and.

Narrow, yeah, totally one with the garage at times, you.

Narrow, yeah, totally one with the garage at times, you.

Know exactly exactly, and so you've got the limited opportunity to vent it. We don't put in service calls, so we can't retrofit. We can't retrofit sort of any of the good things like HIV and the other thing that's really bad in my opinion is we have really mean floor to floor heights, so you can't even put in ceiling fans and move air around, so you can't cheaply mechanically ventilate, and so you have all these compounding little things that are coming along and creating just basically pretty much a crisis. To be honest, it really is, and it's very hard to go. You can never get higher ceilings back once you build a building, that's it. So the issue really is at resource consent level. You know, you've got to get the fundamentals right and then you pick up the detail at building consent.

Know exactly exactly, and so you've got the limited opportunity to vent it. We don't put in service calls, so we can't retrofit. We can't retrofit sort of any of the good things like HIV and the other thing that's really bad in my opinion is we have really mean floor to floor heights, so you can't even put in ceiling fans and move air around, so you can't cheaply mechanically ventilate, and so you have all these compounding little things that are coming along and creating just basically pretty much a crisis. To be honest, it really is, and it's very hard to go. You can never get higher ceilings back once you build a building, that's it. So the issue really is at resource consent level. You know, you've got to get the fundamentals right and then you pick up the detail at building consent.

I'm not feeling hugely hopeful about the answer to this question, but is there anything you can do to existing houses to rectify the overheating issue?

I'm not feeling hugely hopeful about the answer to this question, but is there anything you can do to existing houses to rectify the overheating issue?

You can, you can, it's you know, hate being negative. It's not cheap like, it's not as bad as the leaky building. But firstly, you've got to help reduce the sunlight coming in. And what's happening at the moment is you go around some of the streets and you'll see that people have closed the curtains in the middle of the day on a boiling day. A. They're so close to the street they need privacy, but also they need to keep the sun out, so putting shades or shrouds around windows and doors. It makes a mess of difference, particularly overhead anything canopies. The other thing you can do is we can put ceiling vents on, you know, like you see the spinners on top of industrial buildings that sit there and suck the air through the building. The issue there, of course is that people close doors for privacy, so you know, rooms still heat up, so you can do things. You can also put in external extract events into rooms. You know, as everybody knows though, when you've got a sort of floor fan or something, they're pretty ineffectual at moving here around, so you kind of need all of it going at the same time. And obviously then you get into really expensive mechanical ventilation. I'm not a huge fan of the hivs and those sorts of systems because you have to close all the windows and doors for them to work effectively. But the main thing is getting airflow. The more airflow you can get through the more you and kicking it outside, sucking it in from a cold area and getting it up and out through the roof is probably the best and cheapest way you can I have seen actually some examples from overseas where they used You can buy now very very slim seiling fans. I haven't seen them in New Zealand, but they and I'm not sure if they're that great, but that is an option. And the other one is putting a service core on the exterior of a building. I've seen them dressed up to look like chimneys where they put heat pumps inside what you'd think as a fireplace and running piping up the outside. But yet again, you're you know, you're in the probably tens of thousands of dollars to fix the solutions problem which could have been avoided fundamentally.

You can, you can, it's you know, hate being negative. It's not cheap like, it's not as bad as the leaky building. But firstly, you've got to help reduce the sunlight coming in. And what's happening at the moment is you go around some of the streets and you'll see that people have closed the curtains in the middle of the day on a boiling day. A. They're so close to the street they need privacy, but also they need to keep the sun out, so putting shades or shrouds around windows and doors. It makes a mess of difference, particularly overhead anything canopies. The other thing you can do is we can put ceiling vents on, you know, like you see the spinners on top of industrial buildings that sit there and suck the air through the building. The issue there, of course is that people close doors for privacy, so you know, rooms still heat up, so you can do things. You can also put in external extract events into rooms. You know, as everybody knows though, when you've got a sort of floor fan or something, they're pretty ineffectual at moving here around, so you kind of need all of it going at the same time. And obviously then you get into really expensive mechanical ventilation. I'm not a huge fan of the hivs and those sorts of systems because you have to close all the windows and doors for them to work effectively. But the main thing is getting airflow. The more airflow you can get through the more you and kicking it outside, sucking it in from a cold area and getting it up and out through the roof is probably the best and cheapest way you can I have seen actually some examples from overseas where they used You can buy now very very slim seiling fans. I haven't seen them in New Zealand, but they and I'm not sure if they're that great, but that is an option. And the other one is putting a service core on the exterior of a building. I've seen them dressed up to look like chimneys where they put heat pumps inside what you'd think as a fireplace and running piping up the outside. But yet again, you're you know, you're in the probably tens of thousands of dollars to fix the solutions problem which could have been avoided fundamentally.

I mean adding putting in, as you mentioned, a heat pump that use as an air conditioner, is that going to have an impact?

I mean adding putting in, as you mentioned, a heat pump that use as an air conditioner, is that going to have an impact?

Oh? Absolutely, Just bear in mind they have limited distance though, so you've got to actually put in multiple ones if you're up three levels, so you know, and then you've got to maintain it. And we're really talking about a cost effective solution and affordable housing solution and people, I mean, this is the other part of it, isn't it. People have these huge mortgages on these tiny properties and then we're asking them to find another twenty thirty thousand dollars to fix a problem that should not have arisen.

Oh? Absolutely, Just bear in mind they have limited distance though, so you've got to actually put in multiple ones if you're up three levels, so you know, and then you've got to maintain it. And we're really talking about a cost effective solution and affordable housing solution and people, I mean, this is the other part of it, isn't it. People have these huge mortgages on these tiny properties and then we're asking them to find another twenty thirty thousand dollars to fix a problem that should not have arisen.

Would you think in a new modern bild, you wouldn't be dealing with how you know able to happen? Bruce, has someone sort have dropped the ball here?

Would you think in a new modern bild, you wouldn't be dealing with how you know able to happen? Bruce, has someone sort have dropped the ball here?

Look, it's when you think about it, so urban development that we're talking about, the form that we're talking about has been it's associated with a recent building boom, you know, and it's and it's been basically brought on by councils initially or councils not the density. And then when it did occur, they've tried to retrofit existing suburban rules to kind of manage it. And the National Policy Statement on Urban Development only came out three and a half years ago, you know, that actually provides some sort of guidance and structure around how this is to occur. So there's been a sort of a dropping off the ball at a regulatory level and a kind of a hubrious I guess of not actually looking at what works and what doesn't work and why you do it. And it's different to standard planning rules. So I think national policy, sorry, national standards is absolutely crucial in this. And also I guess some better controls and plans for medium density living, which is what we call it in the business.

Look, it's when you think about it, so urban development that we're talking about, the form that we're talking about has been it's associated with a recent building boom, you know, and it's and it's been basically brought on by councils initially or councils not the density. And then when it did occur, they've tried to retrofit existing suburban rules to kind of manage it. And the National Policy Statement on Urban Development only came out three and a half years ago, you know, that actually provides some sort of guidance and structure around how this is to occur. So there's been a sort of a dropping off the ball at a regulatory level and a kind of a hubrious I guess of not actually looking at what works and what doesn't work and why you do it. And it's different to standard planning rules. So I think national policy, sorry, national standards is absolutely crucial in this. And also I guess some better controls and plans for medium density living, which is what we call it in the business.

Are there any other issue? Yes, sorry, sorry to interrupt with I just want to get there any other issues that you've identified in current building trends you know that you would like to see a change on as well.

Are there any other issue? Yes, sorry, sorry to interrupt with I just want to get there any other issues that you've identified in current building trends you know that you would like to see a change on as well.

Oh look, I you know there's so I come in from a sort of a holistic perspective, and we've got all of this density coming in and we're increasingly reliant on mechanical ventilation, let alone electric cars in our environments, and we want What we're doing is we're starting to construct houses that only work for people of a certain age group for a certain period of time and a certain elk. And in Europe now they require that a or that they don't require. They're encouraging all countries to install a lift. Core doesn't mean you have to put in a lift, but you allow buildings to accommodate for people with who are less able, who can age in place. You know, I think that's a really good thing. It means buildings get a fraction bigger, but it's a really good future proofing. We like I say, we need more and more power, but our power grids really under stress and we shouldn't be reliant on the power grid. Why aren't we mandating solar and batteries on medium density complexes. You know that you have a level of resilience there. And of course I think fundamentally our floor heights, our floor heights are too low on very small spaces. You know, it's the cheapest way to make a small space feel bigger is to lift the ceiling. Yeah, but also you can put in a ceiling fan, which is cheap. It's a couple of hundred bucks versus you know, ten thousand dollars for a heat pump system.

Oh look, I you know there's so I come in from a sort of a holistic perspective, and we've got all of this density coming in and we're increasingly reliant on mechanical ventilation, let alone electric cars in our environments, and we want What we're doing is we're starting to construct houses that only work for people of a certain age group for a certain period of time and a certain elk. And in Europe now they require that a or that they don't require. They're encouraging all countries to install a lift. Core doesn't mean you have to put in a lift, but you allow buildings to accommodate for people with who are less able, who can age in place. You know, I think that's a really good thing. It means buildings get a fraction bigger, but it's a really good future proofing. We like I say, we need more and more power, but our power grids really under stress and we shouldn't be reliant on the power grid. Why aren't we mandating solar and batteries on medium density complexes. You know that you have a level of resilience there. And of course I think fundamentally our floor heights, our floor heights are too low on very small spaces. You know, it's the cheapest way to make a small space feel bigger is to lift the ceiling. Yeah, but also you can put in a ceiling fan, which is cheap. It's a couple of hundred bucks versus you know, ten thousand dollars for a heat pump system.

So, Bruce, you have given us an awful lot to think about. Thank you so much for your time this morning, A lot to think about, especially if you are looking at buying a terraced house or in the planning face is a building one that was Bruce Ware there, who is an independent urban planner, designer and strategic development expert.

So, Bruce, you have given us an awful lot to think about. Thank you so much for your time this morning, A lot to think about, especially if you are looking at buying a terraced house or in the planning face is a building one that was Bruce Ware there, who is an independent urban planner, designer and strategic development expert.

For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen live to News Talks at b from nine am Sunday, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.

For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen live to News Talks at b from nine am Sunday, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.