It's a phrase we hear a lot about — the mental load — but what does it actually mean? And how can we navigate life while carrying it?
Brooke and Ben discuss their differing definitions of mental load and how it plays out for them personally. They also dig into the broader conversation (Is a heavier mental load a gender issue or one of personality? Is it about convenience? Does it differ across generations?) and look at suggestions on how to make changes that could help lessen or even out the load in a relationship.
In the reflection part of the pod they discuss the big, beautiful benefits of being content versus being happy, and dig into how our values might help define both contentment/happiness.
Head over to The Tortoise for the full show notes, and if you haven't already, make sure to subscribe to the free weekly newsletter while you're there.
This is the Tortoise, the podcast that digs deep. Into the possibilities of Slo. My name is Brooke McAlary. I'm your host, and I'm joined by Ben McAlary.
Gidday.
How are you? Very well. How are you?
I'm good. Yeah? Yeah, I'm good. I feel cozy.
Well, it's really cozy in here.
It's rainy outside like it's a dreary winter's day. We've got the fire on. I've got some tea sitting, sitting fireside in my armchair. Got nice little new microphone set up, so hopefully the sounds a bit better.
I know, I know. Apologies for the sound people. They're just some feedback that we've got. It's too quiet, so I'm working on improving that. And it's a delicate balance between two quiet and an unedited version, which we're trying to go for, right? We're trying to be more like unedited.
Well, we basically are. Unless one of us, like sneezes or coughs into the microphone. Sure. If you do that, there's something.
Really.
Wrong, something going wrong. But. So I feel good. How about you? Yeah.
Good. I'm likewise enjoying a nice cuppa.
A nice little cuppa.
I'm looking out into a Yeah, a very wet and windy day. And so there's no better place to be then having a chat with you about mental load.
The mental load? Yes. It's a. A topic that has been recurrent in conversations in this House. I feel like this year, you know. What we mean by the mental load, who is bearing it, why and how and what that looks and feels like. But also just more broadly, I feel like. The conversation around burnout, particularly in women. In a lot of articles that I'm reading, conversations that I'm listening to, podcasts that I'm listening to, everyone is just so tired and. This felt like the right time to have this conversation.
To be honest with you, I didn't even know what mental load was in the context that we're talking about. Okay. Like very naive about mental load and it existing.
Did I introduce you to that?
You did.
I'm sorry.
You did.
If it stressed you out, I'm sorry. No, no, no.
It opened my eyes, I think, a little bit to what is mental load and probably highlights a lot of the stereotypes that will probably talk about in this discussion. But yeah, I'm coming in at. Yeah, very. Naive. Okay.
Well, that's.
It. I think that's not a bad place to have the conversation from because it means that you're not coming into it with your mental weapon chair. And neither am I. Exactly.
That's good. Exactly.
All right. Let's let's just jump in. So when I first said mental load to you in the context of that conversation, whenever that was, what did you picture like? What did you think I was saying?
Yeah, first of all, I thought you were saying. And it explicitly relating to domestic non-paid work.
Okay.
That's immediately what I went to. Right. So cleaning bathrooms, cleaning kitchen, vacuuming, cleaning, you know, washing sheets on bit like all the. Normal domestic activities, plus one off domestic things that just have to happen around the house. You know, it could be paying bills and, you know, talking to a tradesman about something, you know, like all that sort of stuff. So that's immediately what I thought.
And I think that's certainly part of it. But for me, and I think a more broadly accepted kind of definition of mental load is it takes into account all of that stuff, but it's the invisible. Uh, cognitive labor. So it's not even the doing necessarily of it. It's the thinking.
About thinking about.
It that needs.
That it needs to be done and the planning for it. And the for me, it's also the work that I do on myself that allows me to plan for things and to be aware of things that need to be done and to be present for things like it goes deep. I, I would include all of the stuff that I do to help me become a better listener, a better parent, a better, you know, human being. I would include all of that in it, too, because I do that, not because Instagram tells me that I should, but because all of those things help. To create the kind of life that, you know, we want to live. And it. I'm not saying I begrudge it at all. That part of it anyway. I think it's important and valid and valuable, but it is it all adds up to that invisible cognitive labor. If that. Do you understand what I'm like? The difference?
I do. I do.
I think I.
Do. What?
So quick question. And it's going it's me as a. Male wanting to go to solution mode straight away. Do you have to have mental load? Why can't everything just be you think about it and you just either.
Go on. I'm really interested in this.
Do it or delegate it.
Dee Dee, why can't you just go? Okay, when it first comes in your head instead of. Having a load. Why can't it just be an output? Why can't it just be like, that's what we're going to do? Or Ben. You go and do that or like.
Do you think that would work?
As part of the whip process? I think it probably could.
Do you okay, that's fine. That's fine. I appreciate that. You and I have very different ways of looking at the world like you're a solutions person, 100% you to a fault. Sometimes it's like, let's talk about something, Let's fix it. Whereas maybe that's not what the conversation was about fixing it, but that's your default and that makes you really excellent at doing certain things because you're a fixer, you're a solutions person, you're a just get in and do what kind of person. I don't think that is applicable to a lot of the stuff that applies with mental load, with parenting, for example, because so much of it is you're thinking through the stage that the kids are at and you're worrying. Yes. But you're also, you know, trying to come to terms with changes and challenges and strengths and weaknesses that everyone in the family has. And you can't do anything with that. Right. That's not something that can be done with. It's something that forms the foundation on which you make decisions later because you have an understanding or you have a point of view that you have worked hard to establish. You can't that's not a that's not a doing thing.
Again, I'm trying to distance my predisposition of thinking about it as domestic load. Can you give me an example of something that is not the domestic part of it? Sure.
Yeah, because it applies to lots of things. I mean, mental load applies to work. It applies to relationships, not just, you know, romantic or familial relationships, all kind of relationships, you know, community stuff and then household stuff and all of that. So workplace, I was reading an article and they gave this example. I thought it was a good one. You've been asked by your boss to organize a birthday party for a colleague who was also a friend. You. It's not part of your job description. You're not going to get paid extra for it. But your colleague there, your friend and you can output you want to be able to celebrate your friend. Someone has to do it. So you're going to do it. You think about everything that involved, that is involved in that, starting at picking a date, making sure everyone's available for that date, and then looking at food, you know, dietary requirements of everyone making sure that you're across all of that, then you're looking at menu, then you're looking at buying them a gift. Then you're looking at giving them a speech because you want to make sure that they are celebrated because you value them. All of that is invisible. No one sees anything other than maybe the email asking about dietary requirements and dates. And meanwhile, you've given hours of your time and your energy to this thing. And that's. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing to organize a birthday party for a friend, but it's invisible mental load and it takes up space that is then taken up. Not by your work, not by your family stuff, not by household stuff, not by anything else. It's taking up space, you know? And I think that. The resentment side of it comes in when it's sort of like we're just expected to continue to expand ourselves. And I'm speaking generally here when I say ourselves. We just things just keep getting added in and slotted in and slotted in and like we can't go beyond capacity. So we start to feel stretched and we start to feel angry and we start to feel resentful. And I think the resentment side of it comes in when it is because it is invisible and it is undervalued, all of that kind of cognitive load. Does that. Yeah. So seeing that, can you see what I what the difference is?
A little bit.
A little bit? Yeah.
So thinking about, okay, I know you don't want to just think about it domestically, but it's for me. Another example would be all of the tiny tasks that have to happen around the house that quite literally, no one else would think about.
Let's talk about those tasks.
Those tiny tasks.
Okay?
Have you ever thought about having to clean the side of the. Kick boards in the kitchen.
No, but definitely the. Drawer drawers and cupboards.
Okay, so you've thought about it.
And have done it on.
Occasion. Okay.
Cleaning of windows, airing of linens, seasonally washing curtains, all of that kind of stuff. That and this. Before we go on any further, I don't want it to sound like I am making a list of things that I do and you don't, but I'm trying to paint a picture of the fact that this stuff takes up head space, right? Like the kids wardrobes. First weekend of every school holidays, I go through their wardrobes and make sure their clothes still fit them. I find out what else they need. We make sure we go do the shopping so that they've got shoes that fit and they've got pants that don't don't come up to their cars like that kind of stuff. It takes up space, you know? And in our relationship, you work far more than I do in terms of paid work. Your hours are far longer and you're paid far, far better than I ever have been. So it is what it is, Right? But it's. It's relentless. And I think it's invisible and it's undervalued just in general. And again, this is not like a we're talking.
We're also we're hetero couple. We have no idea whether this is even like a gender. Is it a gender thing.
I think.
Or is it.
Based on like paid employment? Everything runs off that.
Yeah, I don't I don't know. All I know is that there have been studies done recently that show that in hetero relationships women are typically doing two plus hours a day more domestic. Regardless of their work, their paid work load and the mental load is more on top of that. Again, that's in hetero relationship. So I think that there is a gender role there and I think it's absorbed from how we're brought up. It's absorbed through societal messages. I found a quote on line and I don't know who said it because it's one of those ones that does the rounds of like Instagram and stuff over time and you can never tell who's actually. Said it first.
Yeah.
But it kind of resonated with me. So there is an entire generation of women who are drowning because they were raised with traditional gender roles while being empowered to be independent. These women still take on the majority of House duties while killing it in the workplace, and they're tired.
It's like, that's sandwich generation, right?
Yeah. Going back to last episode.
Last theme, it's. That's a great case study for the sandwich generation. Yeah.
So I do think that gender roles do play a part in it, but I don't think it's only that. I think there's definitely personality. You know, there's people who have perfectionistic tendencies versus people who don't. You know, people who are details oriented versus people who aren't. People who are probably more naturally wired to be okay with things being just like fine rather than awesome versus people who aren't. I think personality definitely plays a part in it.
I think it's a question for me. Of value.
Right?
So value and. Societies. Societies placed a value within that sort of mental load.
I don't think it's valued at all.
Right? Yeah.
And I think that's actually where the issue is.
That's the issue.
Because I worked for an insurance company back in the day that released a product called Million Dollar Woman. And it was life insurance for someone that was not in the paid workforce or like part time or casual, that wouldn't have. A big enough chunk of life insurance as part of their superannuation because if you're part time, you're you're supers much less and superannuation is pension, you know, for those that are not in Australia.
Yeah.
And that product failed miserably because of society's. Was two bit like it was two out there. It was two to foreign. Do you mean like it was two? What does it mean? Like how do how does this work? Or this sort of stuff? They just couldn't get their heads around it.
I think it's fascinating because I remember when that came out and I was deep in the throes of like two young kids, like maybe a one year old and a baby.
You were like the.
Perfect target market for.
It. Yeah. And I felt seen by that because the kind of, you know, the messaging was if something was to happen to this partner in a relationship, everything would grind to a halt because of all of the unpaid work that happens in the home through them and because of them. And that that felt kind of good to me as a mum at that stage because I'm like, finally, yes, 100%. If if I wasn't able to do what I do. We're stuffed, you know, And it's it's sad to me that society like it was too big and.
Ask too big of us for people.
To to turn around and put a monetary value on what is typically a woman's role in a hetero relationship of all of these household tasks. And they're like, Well, I'm not doing that because then we have to rethink everything. If we rethink that, if we start putting a dollar value on that kind of work, then that reshapes the entirety of the way that society is. You know. Formed and the things that we value and the things that we champion. And no one was ready for that. And I don't think people are now. I really don't. I think no, I think that the conversation is shifting and I think the people for whom it actually applies are talking way more openly about it. But I don't see any solutions being so it's still the solution is not societal, it's not cultural. We're making it individual. We're saying to that person in the in the home, in the relationship, we're saying you need to come up with ways of. Better managing this. And I don't I don't know what the answer is, but I just think it's really interesting that, you know, someone tried a product, someone try to, you know, think a thing, a solution. No one took it, No one. And now ten years later, we're still having the conversation. I'd argue that it's probably more prevalent. Burnout is more prevalent. People are doing it far tougher now. Than they were even ten years ago. And, you know, we're still making the the problem an individual one.
We have come a long way just in terms of domestic load and unpaid work within the household because ten years, ten plus years ago. Women were doing. And I'm talking along gender gender lines here. Yeah, like double if not triple. The figures are now moving to a more equality.
There, and I think.
That is. The case in Australia particularly. I have read that specifically Australian households have it's evened up, but again that's with the domestic load. They drew a line between that and the mental load and it's still not by any stretch even or coming to be even. Yeah, I think. That That's a that's a positive thing.
It is.
It's definitely a positive. Yeah.
But I think going back to your question of value. I know for me that's something I have struggled with our entire married life is. The fact that. And this is partly tied to the work that I do as a writer, chronically undervalued. I mean, I don't think I've had a year as a writer where I've made anywhere near minimum wage, um, except one when the year after Slow came out. That was the only year I think that I made beyond a minimum wage. So that has always played into it too. And then to have on top of that, what I consider work, domestic work, family work, you know, unpaid work. It's not only invisible, but it's also undervalued. And that has messed with my sense of esteem, my confidence, my sense of my ability to provide value in other capacities. And I think that that's not unusual for people who have, you know, had a similar kind of trajectory. It's. And I don't necessarily think that the answer is. Kind of enforcing everyone to go back to work full time. Across the board either. You know, I just think that we need to shift our sense of what we do and don't value in society in terms of the energy and effort that goes into it. Yeah. And it's interesting, though, to view all of this through the lens of feminism, too, because. To me, feminism is simply about equality. That's all it's about the belief that everyone should be treated equally. Then full stop. It's not scary. It's not crazy. It's just very plain and simple. So that also includes people having the choice to. You know, to live the way they wanted to live and they want to live. And that works for them and their household, their family, their dynamic. So even talking about. All the different options can sometimes feel like I'm being untrue to that too. You know, it's a really I find it really it's a really tricky. Thing to talk about without feeling like I'm doing someone a disservice, I suppose. Does that make sense? Yeah, it.
Does, actually.
It really does.
It's not my intention at all. It's a really. Yeah, it's the patriarchy, right? Like that's this is a patriarchal society. And it's having to unpack all of that and all the stuff that I learned as a kid and, you know, all of the things that I saw role modeled and continue to say, role model. I do think it would be an interesting thing. I don't know how you could ever do it, but like compare the pressures that, you know, women, particularly of previous generations, felt versus the pressures that women of our generation's generation feel. Because their role models were different. Their gender roles were different. The expectations were different. But also I just think that like social media and the Internet in general has opened us up to this entire world of possibility and expectation and standards that previous generations didn't have to operate underneath. And we don't have to, I suppose. But it's very hard not to. So it's like what used to be good enough is no longer good enough. It's going to be great.
It's got to be great. And, you know, if you're. Part time or casual or, you know, not in employment. You should have a side hustle as well. Right?
Exactly. So it's.
It's just it's always adding on.
And it's adding. Yes. It's never taking away. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's very additive the pressures that people are under. So it's like, okay, what can we take away? How can we lessen the load? I know. For me. Any something I've had to learn to do is a recognize my resentments because they're very real. And very human. I think everyone goes through periods of resentment, but slowing down long enough to recognize them. And again, this is what I was sort of getting at the mental load, the work of journaling, of practicing self-awareness, of reflecting, of taking myself away from social media so I can actually figure out what my definition of success is, what my definition of, you know, showing up for my family. Like, kind of that's all work. It takes time and effort to simplify the messaging and doing all of that then allows me. To tap into how I'm feeling. And I've found over the years, on and off how I'm feeling is resentful. So you get to that point and then it's a matter of communicating it and then, you know. That's an uncomfortable conversation to have when we're both partners in the relationship and we work really hard to see each other as part of the same team, and often we'll say that to each other to say, Hey, I'm feeling a bit resentful. Doesn't feel great. But it's important because nothing changes unless we go there. What I feel like. That's not something that you. Would. Actively do. Unless. I don't know. Is it?
Probably not. Yeah.
Yeah, probably not. I just keep on thinking again to, like, solution mode. Like this is. This is how we often say, you and I. I'd love to live like a week in your shoes. Like, what's it like for you? Yeah. And we've made this observation, particularly when you've been sick. And I'm like, I just wish I could, like, feel what you're feeling and understand. Just understand it more. I do understand it. I don't think you do until you just like living it.
Yeah.
But wouldn't it be It would just be fascinating to find out. The toll that mental these mental load and this you know, this whole thing being seen as being undervalued and societal expectation like all that sort of combined. Into a fitness tracker.
Bear with.
Me that you could look at and it spits out this like chart over the day and saying like and it measures the mental load as like a strain like this.
Is the equivalent.
Of. A board presentation. Sure. Or like I would love a comparison.
Like if you could map.
Never going to happen.
But if you could map the cognitive output.
That's.
That. That to me would then I would. You know, there's only so much you can empathize with someone in these situations without actually living through it. So that would then just crystallize it so much more. And you take into consideration relative strain of individuals and and. You know, you had to compare it then.
Okay.
So I agree with you. That would be fascinating.
Fascinating. Would that be?
So then let's say that you were able to do that, right? And then you could put a dollar value on it. Correct.
Any metric then you would be able to then.
Yeah, but.
What I'm saying is if you you know, you were able to track your cognitive output versus my cognitive output and I don't say versus in like a combative way, but, you know. Okay. Uh, and then like dollar for. Output. Output. You know, metric.
Yeah.
And the difference in that would be. I'm telling you. Staggering. I have no doubt, no doubt that your mind is just as full as mine. Day to day, hour to hour, I have no doubt. And I'm not. This is never about comparing that and saying someone is doing it harder than the other because I take on a lot of the mental load and the domestic load because as I said, your workload is far higher than mine at the moment. That ebbs and flows and we ebb and flow. But currently, and probably this year, it's fair to say that that's the case. So let's say both as hardworking, you know, conscientious people that we are we're both showing up equal ish. Yeah. Mentally in our various roles. And I believe that. You're getting paid for it. I'm not. You know, and that's. I wish that that wasn't the metric I kept coming back to. I really do, because I believe in a world where that isn't. That shouldn't be the the measure of value. But as it stands at the moment, it kind of is. You get paid for the work that you do. I get paid for some of the work that I do, but the stuff that we're talking about now, like. The extra, the invisible, the unrecognized. No one pays you for it. I'm not saying I want to be, but it's value. That's how we show value. Right?
Should there be, then, as part of someone's job description? It's recognizing like it's a tick like if you go for a job I. What is your marital status? Um, just bear with me. You know, Do you watch your. Do you have kids and and find out some really quite basic information about your living like.
Just experience and circumstance.
Right? So then. You as an employee don't get paid. You as a family get paid because that then. Includes things like just in a job description. It'll just have, you know, key responsibilities and set criteria and all that sort of stuff. And it has like lists out all the things based on that job, but it also includes.
You don't even. You're not even buying what you're saying.
Go on.
I'm trying to. Blue sky thinking or blue ocean thinking is, you know, the includes a payment as part of your salary. No, that's not right.
I understand what you're saying.
It includes metrics like will be away from home, will be you know, we'll will not be able to do anything over eight hours per day. Like like, it's just it's trying to put the emphasis less on, okay, you come and work and you, you do the job. But there's also a lot going behind the scenes for you to be able to do the job right. And so it's acknowledging the fact that, yeah, you won't be able to drop your kids off from school to school from pick them up from school. You won't be able to clean the bathroom like it's. I'm not sure I need to think about it a little bit more, but there's there's something in there that it's not. Legally, yes. The contract is between an employee, a single person, but it also recognizes. The great work that has to happen for that employee to be able to do their job.
Yeah. Right. Okay. I mean, I see what you're saying.
So it's not me getting paid as an employee? Yep. It's McAlary getting.
Paid, right?
It's the McAlary family.
I see some significant gaps in that plan.
But a huge gap.
I.
I'm just trying to change, like, the conversation around what it is to be valued.
Yes. Okay.
We're not going to be able to like the government's not going to come out and say everyone will get a minimum wage.
Right. So that's what I was going to say. What you're basically. Advocating for there is universal basic income.
Well.
It's sort of like that, but it's not really it's still it's not called that. It's just building to your employee contract. Employment contract. Then there'll be issues around. Companies like, you know.
Well, yeah, it's not a company's job to, you know, to do that.
All right.
Huge, huge holes.
Huge.
Appreciate. It's a big swing. I do appreciate the big swing.
Big swing. No ding.
You're right.
I think going back, though, to what I was saying about communication. We've had conversations. Where? It's mostly been me saying we need to renegotiate. Recalibrate what? The shared load looks like. I don't think that you've brought that up yourself before. Don't think so. I'm not being a smart Alec. I actually don't think you have. But anyway, it's the conversations that we have had. How? Like, how do you. How do you feel when those conversations happen? Because I try very hard for it to never sound like a. Finger pointing sort of exercise or a. You know, a blaming kind of exercise. Yeah.
It's hard not to feel like a lazy B, not. Why can't I just think of that myself and do it? You know what I mean? Like, a bit ashamed, lazy, ashamed. And three would be. But I don't want to do that.
I thought you were going to say defensive, but. All right. You went with honest. I like it.
I don't want.
To clean the windows.
Sure, no one does. This is the point. Yeah, maybe someone does. I apologize. You know what would.
You know for me personally, what would make it better?
The conversation around it. Yeah.
Is.
Every September we clean the windows.
Okay. Do what.
I mean. And then every December, we clean the outside of the house, which is kind of like what we do now.
Is actually what we.
Do. And that's in the back of my brain. And every November, we stain the deck when it's not pouring.
Okay, so that's interesting.
That's in the back of my head is. I know that. And that's a that's mental load, right? That's an example of mental load.
It is.
And it's interesting because I, I will have rhythms that I have created for myself. Uh, that can be weekly. So that includes things like household tasks that just need to be done roughly every week and then some that are same. I know.
I know. I know.
I know you know that. But there are other ones that I have that I've never communicated to.
Seasonal yearly.
Yeah. And I've never communicated them to you. So that's on me. I mean, that's on me for not. Talking about it and sort of and because I'm much the same, I find attaching tasks to set periods of time really helpful. And it just means that you don't have to keep doing This is a light bulb moment. You don't have to keep doing the mental work of figuring out when to do these things because we know on Thursdays I do this and then the Fridays I do that.
It's part of the.
And also, you know, exactly being, being kind of flexible with it rather than being routine and strict and like stuck to very specific timeframes. You can be flexible with it to a certain extent, which allows you for the, you know, the ebbs and flows of life.
Mm.
So that's, that's down to communication. That's not even down to doing the, the work of it because that's sort of almost done. But you know, maybe once a year or once every six months we sit down, we.
You know, you know.
What, we talk about.
The next two quarters, what kind of tasks are attached to it, why we may or may not be able to do it, how we can shift things around.
Yeah. What what's hard is when you keep it to yourself and then just be like, Oh, I'm the only one that does.
This.
And just come out with it. And I'm like, I don't even know.
That that was.
Part of like your. Thought processes.
Because I think at some point I just get tired of thinking about it. So I don't want to.
So communicate.
That, but I don't.
I've already done the thinking about it. I don't want to keep talking about it. Do you know what I mean? Like talking about it is another version of thinking about it. I'm not saying that that's correct.
Well, don't talk about it. Just do it, then.
Hmm.
So that's the that's almost the because I have those situations, too, where I'm. I'm thinking about it. And instead of communicating it with you, I'll just go and do it.
Oh, no doubt. Yeah.
No doubt.
Because it's it's too hard to. It's not too hard. One might be.
You don't want to double dip. And that's what it feels like.
I don't want a double dare. I may as well just go and do it. So it'll be just done. Yep. Pragmatic. But not necessarily healthy.
No, I think it's a little bit passive aggressive.
You do it all the time. Yes. Okay. Some things like the lawns, like I'm just doing the lawns. It's an unwritten law that that's what I will do.
It's an unwritten law. Okay. I like mowing the lawns. But you do them. I like doing it, but you actually do it. So that's a difference as well. But what? Sorry. When I was saying it's an unwritten law, it's like, why is it an unwritten law? Because that's what you grew up doing.
Do you know we never.
Communicate when I'm going to do the lawns. Do it, do we? Yep. No, we do not.
We don't like schedule it. But you say to me, I'm going to try and do the lawns on Friday afternoon or I'm going to do them on Saturday after football or whatever. Okay. Yeah, but even that, it's.
So hard not to get defensive about some of this stuff.
But it's also I think it's also important to have, you know, open conversation like none of this is fresh. We're not we're not rehashing this stuff. We're not hashing this stuff out for the first time, you know, on a podcast because that would be weird. This is stuff that we have spoken about at length. And even still, it can be tough to not feel called out. So. I think you and I have gone to great lengths over the last few years, particularly to. Do a better job of communicating to do a better job of sharing the mental load. You picked up a lot when my dad was unwell and when my health tanked. So there was a lot that you picked up that I just could not do. And this year has been a matter of trying to recalibrate that to to a point that's more fair. I think. And that's something that we have both had to want to do in order to have the conversations in order to make any change. I think the tricky thing is if someone's in a relationship with another person who has got the better end of the deal. They have to want to change as well. But that's tricky, right? When it behooves someone to continue the way they are while the other person is really struggling. Like, I think that that's hard as well. It's sort of having multiple conversations over time.
Oh, that's that's.
The way to do it.
It's not a one and done.
It's not a.
Screaming.
No.
It's a. Very well thought out. Communication over a period of time.
And let's say this is coming from a person who is carrying the majority of the mental load. I'm not talking about us at the moment, like specifically. That just adds to the mental load for them to have to think through. And you just said a really well thought out conversation where it doesn't feel like you're attacking. Like that is not easy to do when you are feeling resentful, exhausted, burnt out, taken for granted. To then add on top of that. Now you must have this calm, kind, compassionate conversation with your partner. And if they're going to meet you, they're wonderful. But if they're going to feel called out and react, not great, like that's just something else for that person to carry. And I completely understand why people are like, you know what? I'm just going to do it. It's just easier because I'm not going to think about this as well as having to think about this and this and this and this. It's really tricky. But I think that for us at least, it's been like. Gradual. Um, well intentioned conversation.
The the breakthrough for me back in the day and I'm talking ten plus years ago on the start during the start of your slow living journey was when you were saying, why are we so busy doing like. Cleaning and spending our weekends doing all this stuff only to then Sunday afternoon, turn around and your week starts again. And it was you getting us into this rhythm where we would do things. And we do them on a regular occurrence rather than like a big. Top to tail.
You have.
To clean the bathroom like once a month. It was every week cleaning, but concentrating on one. I don't know. I don't even remember what it was. Right? But it then saved us. It gave us so much more time to be able to do the things we want to do on the weekend. And that for me, was the big breakthrough. So it was you highlighting the benefits. This is how much better our life can be if we do this. And then doing the planning and then working out the routine and who does what. And that was the big thing. So it's highlighting the benefits rather than. Anything else?
Yeah. Okay.
That's interesting that you like that. It went that far back.
Yeah, I.
Distinctly remember it.
So it's a it's a moving thing. Yeah. And that's but that's as it should be, I think, because. You know, mental load for both of us looked different ten years ago than it does now. So of course, you need to revisit and recalibrate. It's interesting. Lots of food for thought here, honey. As you just made a face looking at how long we've been talking so.
Far, believe how quickly that went.
Well, I think it's a good that's a kind of a good point to. Shift into the next part of the podcast where we usually reflect on something we've read or listen to or found ourselves thinking about over the last month. And this actually dovetails really nicely into a post from the Tortoise. A couple of weeks ago called Happiness is for Losers. Which I struggled with that that headline, it felt a little negative. But I promise you that it's a really uplifting post, really just talking about the difference between happiness and contentment and. Why I think there is ironically happiness to be found when we let go of the relentless need to be better, to strive, to excel and exceed expectations. To be.
Perfect. Yeah.
So. You know, I think that that. That does sort of relate a lot to the conversation we've been having about mental load, not because that will solve anything, but because it might help us to recalibrate again. What? Our expectations are of ourselves with our homes, of what balance looks like, of what success looks like, of what, you know, success in loads of different areas of life look like to just. Embrace the idea of being okay with being okay.
To be fine?
Yeah, to be just fine.
This was huge for you. Ten years ago, you were 100% a perfectionist. That was your personal. You were absolute perfectionist. And I'm not a perfectionist. I'm a. People pleaser.
Yeah.
So that's a bad combo for us.
Yeah.
Because I'm always striving to be. Perfect. And I'm not perfect.
Yeah.
Okay. At the risk of derailing our conversation. That's interesting, isn't it?
I just. I just.
Noticed that. I just realized that. So you were looking perfect for perfection in someone that was never going to be perfect?
I know perfection isn't for me. It's not me looking at you for, like, looking for perfection in you.
Damn it.
Sorry. I mean, if I was looking, that's what I would find, obviously. But. No. God, it's. It's very much a person. Like, it's. It's the lens through which I view my efforts of. Trying to make everything perfect, like the things that I do, the things that I say, the things that I write, the way I show up need to be perfect. That's something that I've been working on relentlessly.
And you've done like.
It's incredible the amount of work you've done.
On that.
Yeah, but I think that. There is something really powerful there for all of us in recognizing. That what I think what we think we're chasing always is happiness. But by embracing contentment, you know, being okay with things as they are, whether they are great or not, we actually open ourselves up for more happiness because you find delight in whatever is in front of you rather than constantly looking for the next best version of it. You know, the I'll be happy wins. Yeah. I'll be happy when I get the promotion. I'll be happy when the house is clean. I'll be happy when I get this job, you know, whatever it might be. Just be happy now and enjoy it for what it is. But there's then a tension between. Settling as if it's a bad thing. I don't think it is. But, you know, people view it as a bad thing and striving. And someone in the comments raised this point that I haven't stopped thinking about since she she wrote it. It was Stephanie. Thank you, Stephanie. Um. She basically said, could we use our values, our personal values as. And as areas of focus in which we if we want to strive, if we want to. Have ambition if we want to pursue be perfect. No, no, no, no, not be perfect. But if we want to improve. And grow. Focus those efforts in our areas of personal values. And I'd never thought about that, as, you know, as a related kind of thought. But it really. Appeals to me, I think, because otherwise, you know, if you are someone who is has perfectionistic tendencies or is a people pleaser or is attached to a certain idea of what success looks like or, you know, whatever it might be, this thing, this this drive that keeps pushing you. There's nothing wrong with that. And that's not what my post was about. It was not about. Adopting mediocrity across the board all the time in everything, but about allowing ourselves to be average in areas of life and being fine with that. And I think the extension of that is because over time that then opens us up to. Opportunities for. Growth and improvement and betterment. But if they are attached to the things that we value, those things that we that are most important to us in life where you know.
Well like that.
Over time, we're building the sort of life that we want. It kind of gives us a a guide or a map.
Yeah.
So ironic during when you were drafting that post, you came up to me and said, Could you read this? And you said, What do you think? And I said, It's fine.
And I'm like, but.
I want it to be excellent. But someone else commented, Yeah. And she's like, I'm fine with just being fine so that when I want to give my time and energy to something that is excellent, that I ask myself, could I have done any better? And the answer is no. She's like, For me, it's my writing. And I'm like, Say yes. Okay. Yeah. And that sort of crystallized it again. It's like, you don't have to be just fine with everything. And you know, but if there's something in your life that a number of people said, like their relationships, they they spend time and effort wanting to excel in their relationships because the flow on of that is so important to them, you know. So it was I kind of felt like a fraud when you said it's just fine. And I know you were being a smart ass.
I was.
But the only reason why I did it, it was great. It wasn't fine. It's a great post.
Thank you. Still aiming for excellent, though. Yeah. And I.
Reserve my judgment.
If that's something that that resonates with you or if you're curious about wanting to. Know more about your own values. I actually did run a values workshop over on the Tortoise a few months ago back in March, and it's available to everyone who is a paying subscriber, which is $5 a month. So you can definitely go and check that out. Just go to Brooke McAlary substack.com and there's a link to it at the top of the page because I do think that values and understanding our personal values is so key and I think I'm becoming more convinced of how important it is to living. You know, a. More intentional life. Yeah.
1%? Yes. How are you going with your 1%? Uh.
Okay. I had a breakthrough last month, actually.
Okay. Share.
I realized that I was still waiting for the big showy result. So the whole the theory being that, you know, 1% effort every day or whenever you can do it does over time at a compound.
Yeah.
Into significance.
Right. But I was waiting for that. I was waiting for, you know, the moment that. The dam walls burst in. All of my efforts kind of came to fruition at once. Yeah, and that's not how it works. But it was interesting that I had taken that kind of mentality and applied it to the 1%. So, you know, it was like, you know, weeding the garden. I'm always talking about weeding the garden as though it's all I ever do. But, you know, why isn't it making more of a difference? Why can I not see more progress with my 15 minutes a day or my 1% of the week? Like, because that's not the point. The point is not that you're going to have a moment of breakthrough. The point is that you are showing up for this thing. Regardless. So that was interesting. So I feel like I'd been saying all the right things, but not necessarily fully believing it.
Yeah.
So that's shifting for me and really, you know, reframing. My expectations of what that looks like. Um. Yeah, but practically speaking, it has certainly helped. With my writing. I'm back. Working on my creative writing, which is really nice. After having a bit of a dip kind of through the last part of April, beginning of May. So I'm trying just to apply the 1%, not going 1% and whatever else I can, you know, squeeze in, it's just 1% and just keep showing up with the 1% and have faith that over time that adds up to something. What that something is. Who knows? But as a. As a baseline, as a commitment. As like a. Acknowledgment of showing up for this thing. That's important to me. That's been really helpful. And like so like I said last month, I think I started viewing the 1% through that lens of my values as well. And that's been kind of. Helpful and enlightening. What about you? Where are you up to with your 1%?
My four day.
Week?
Well, I had a sleep in this morning.
Okay, good.
That. And I'm going to take those sleeping on a workday. Outrageous. But I'm going to take it as as part of my overall. Drive for a four day week. It's those little 1% changes and I'm going to work insane hours this week. I just I just know it.
One of those weeks.
But I know that I started the week with a little bit of a buffer. With a little bit of a. I don't know. It's like almost just for my mental health, almost.
So if that gives you that 1% white space.
Exactly.
In your head, in your. You know, your emotional.
Margin. Yeah. Yeah.
If it gives you that, then that might make a difference in how you approach that meeting or this recording or that report that you've got to write, you know. It's so it's tricky, I think, for you, particularly because you're a solutions guy. You're like, how do I quantify it? Like, you can't quantify it. You'll never know whether that 1%, that 15 minutes extra that, you know, sitting in bed having a coffee together and talking about the day you won't ever know whether it makes a difference or not. But I think you have to trust that it does. And that's not necessarily. Natural to you.
I have to work at that.
Yeah.
We think you do a good job of like, believing in it even though you can't see it. It's not something that you can see on a spreadsheet or. Yeah.
So, you know every every month or do a little bit more. You know, it's just being aware of it. That's half the battle being aware of of. What you're working towards and being constantly reminded of, it really helps.
Does it really helps me.
It doesn't feel like a pressure. No, no.
Because you're in the context of 1%, right? Sure. That's the key. Yeah. Like 1% improvements.
Yeah.
One 1% difference. It's. Yeah, it's. It's the way to go. It's revolutionary.
I dig it. I find it very powerful. Yeah, it's been interesting.
To see something greater.
There. I'm sure that we can do with.
The 1%.
Community. The 1%?
Yeah.
I don't. Um. I'd be curious to unpack that with you at some point.
Let's talk about that.
Not on a podcast.
I think that's us for the month. Yeah. Just a reminder, I'm writing really regularly over on the Tortoise, which is my new home online over on Substack. So again, Brooke McAlary Substack is where you will find me. Or you can just Google the tortoise and it will. It will show up. I'm writing at least once a week, usually twice. And there's some quarterly I'm creating workshops or retreats for paying subscribers. So the first one was, as I mentioned, values. The most recent one was a rhythms retreat, where I took people through the process of creating their own morning and evening seasonal rhythms. And the next one, I think, will be about writing as self-care, but that won't be for a couple of months. So. Okay. Yeah. If you're interested, make sure. Yeah, journaling will be part of it. Yeah, journey journaling will be part of it. It's actually a workshop that I devised, an in-person workshop that I was going to run last the year before last, but got derailed by Covid. Oh, okay. So it's taking elements of that. Cool. So if you want to be on the list, make sure that you find out about that retreat or want to take the other ones, you just head over to the tortoise. You can sign up as a free member or as a paying member. I'd love to have you.
Thanks very much for your reviews. Comments on Apple Podcasts.
Yeah, they're very.
High and over on the Tortoise. It's just been.
Great. It's been.
Amazing. Yeah. Cup filling. You know, one of the things that I've wanted for so many years is to develop community around this kind of space in these conversations. And I feel like finally that's happening.
You know, kind of locking that in.
Yeah, just the way that the, the platform over at Substack is developed and the way that we're using it as a community. And just to start to see those interactions between people is so heartwarming. And I feel like we're starting to really get there towards that, that hard to quantify goal that I've had around community. So yeah, please do check it out. It's a really wonderful group of people and would love to have you there. Thank you obviously for those reviews as well because we have read through all of the recent ones and I've been really moved by them actually. They've been really wonderful. So thank you for taking the time to do that. Thank you, Ben.
Thank you. Pleasure, my darling.
And until we are in your ears again, take good care and we'll see you soon.
I just saluted the microphone.
No one could say that, but I appreciated it. Yeah.
Bye.