Isabel Wilkerson reframes race and racism in her book Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents. Here she talks about what inspired the book and about the craft behind her complex, big narratives. Spoiler: it doesn’t involve outlines. Plus, Tressie and Roxane on why you need to read more than one book about racism.

Mentions:

• Caste: The Origins Of Our Discontents

Hear To Slay theme music by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiura. Curtis Fox is the senior producer. Sarah Wyman and Catherine Fenollosa are the producers. Production help from Lauren Garcia and Kaityln Adams. Ali McPherson and Isoke Samuel are the interns.