Welcome to the path of art. I'm Ryan Meeks. And today on our show we have Jeff Whitely, so Jeff Whiteley is a local musician in Utah who has, he started his own foundation and he, he's in a multiple bands himself. So, welcome to the show, Jeff. Could you give us a little introduction just about yourself?

Welcome to the path of art. I'm Ryan Meeks. And today on our show we have Jeff Whitely, so Jeff Whiteley is a local musician in Utah who has, he started his own foundation and he, he's in a multiple bands himself. So, welcome to the show, Jeff. Could you give us a little introduction just about yourself?

Well, first, thanks for the invitation. It's great to be here.

Well, first, thanks for the invitation. It's great to be here.

Uh, I have been a guitar player since the age of 12 and it's been a wonderful thing to be a musician. Not always easy.

Uh, I have been a guitar player since the age of 12 and it's been a wonderful thing to be a musician. Not always easy.

And I guess the main claim to fame these days is

And I guess the main claim to fame these days is

When I started the nonprofit excellence in the community in 2005,

When I started the nonprofit excellence in the community in 2005,

the purpose was to create more and better performance opportunities for Utah musicians. And that came after basically a lifetime of performing all over Utah, lots of great high profile gigs and essentially going nowhere and wondering what's wrong with this picture.

the purpose was to create more and better performance opportunities for Utah musicians. And that came after basically a lifetime of performing all over Utah, lots of great high profile gigs and essentially going nowhere and wondering what's wrong with this picture.

I could tell more stories about that, but

I could tell more stories about that, but

I think that's, I think that's a well known feeling here in Utah.

I think that's, I think that's a well known feeling here in Utah.

Yes, you many, many people are extremely talented and could can delight an audience can bring an audience to its feet or to bring tears to the eyes of people in the audience

Yes, you many, many people are extremely talented and could can delight an audience can bring an audience to its feet or to bring tears to the eyes of people in the audience

and then they finish the gig, hoping something will happen.

and then they finish the gig, hoping something will happen.

And

And

in our case

in our case

it doesn't, it

it doesn't, it

doesn't happen. So, um

doesn't happen. So, um

my spouse and I, she's a singer. We started thinking about what could we do to make things better.

my spouse and I, she's a singer. We started thinking about what could we do to make things better.

In fact, this was kind of the life changing moment for me instead of saying, well,

In fact, this was kind of the life changing moment for me instead of saying, well,

we're just getting older. The group is sounds fantastic, but nothing's happening.

we're just getting older. The group is sounds fantastic, but nothing's happening.

I used to look at that as a failure, but then I started thinking

I used to look at that as a failure, but then I started thinking

maybe it's not a failure. Maybe it's an opportunity

maybe it's not a failure. Maybe it's an opportunity

because it's not just my group. There are dozens,

because it's not just my group. There are dozens,

hundreds, hundreds

hundreds, hundreds

of fantastic artists in Utah that could be doing amazing things and, and deserved to in terms of their accomplishment. But the opportunities weren't here. I'll give you an example. We were playing, we were regulars at the River Horse in Park City for many years, a wonderful place to play. It's a restaurant, but it had the distinction of

of fantastic artists in Utah that could be doing amazing things and, and deserved to in terms of their accomplishment. But the opportunities weren't here. I'll give you an example. We were playing, we were regulars at the River Horse in Park City for many years, a wonderful place to play. It's a restaurant, but it had the distinction of

having an area set aside for the musicians. So it actually looked like musicians were supposed to be there. So architecturally, there was an attempt to say we got some music for you tonight. We have the music has some lights, there's some lights on the, on the artists.

having an area set aside for the musicians. So it actually looked like musicians were supposed to be there. So architecturally, there was an attempt to say we got some music for you tonight. We have the music has some lights, there's some lights on the, on the artists.

We had wonderful evenings there, Quartet Larkin Spur and

We had wonderful evenings there, Quartet Larkin Spur and

uh, I thought maybe we ought to start asking for more money. So I set up a meeting with the owner

uh, I thought maybe we ought to start asking for more money. So I set up a meeting with the owner

and he said, oh, I'm so glad to see you. Whitely, I've been wanting to talk to you,

and he said, oh, I'm so glad to see you. Whitely, I've been wanting to talk to you,

I'm thinking everything's fine.

I'm thinking everything's fine.

He says, there's something really wrong with your group,

He says, there's something really wrong with your group,

took me aback. I hadn't expected that,

took me aback. I hadn't expected that,

and he said, people don't leave

and he said, people don't leave

when you play the people just stay.

when you play the people just stay.

That was a bad

That was a bad

thing in his mind. He wanted to turn over tables,

thing in his mind. He wanted to turn over tables,

but

but

we kind of took it as a compliment that we were quieting the conversations and people wanted to kind of focus on what became a concert.

we kind of took it as a compliment that we were quieting the conversations and people wanted to kind of focus on what became a concert.

So turning a background music gig into a concert,

So turning a background music gig into a concert,

he didn't like it.

he didn't like it.

Um

Um

I'm leaving out details,

I'm leaving out details,

but that's kind of the premise for excellence in the community. What would it take to get Utah musicians out of the background music business

but that's kind of the premise for excellence in the community. What would it take to get Utah musicians out of the background music business

and get them onto concert stages so that the public visitors and residents could actually realize, my goodness,

and get them onto concert stages so that the public visitors and residents could actually realize, my goodness,

this this group is good. My goodness, listen to that drummer, listen to that singer. So the premise for excellence, many, many people acknowledge that Utah has fabulous resources in terms of talent,

this this group is good. My goodness, listen to that drummer, listen to that singer. So the premise for excellence, many, many people acknowledge that Utah has fabulous resources in terms of talent,

Not so many are involved in doing something about that or in harnessing that resource. So in 2005, we started uh the excellence project excellence concerts

Not so many are involved in doing something about that or in harnessing that resource. So in 2005, we started uh the excellence project excellence concerts

and we began raising money to put on

and we began raising money to put on

musicians put on concerts featuring Utah musicians.

musicians put on concerts featuring Utah musicians.

Yeah, I think that's, that's kind of similar to why I started this podcast. You know, I felt that um art here can use more publicity. It could use more, just something, right, something to get, get people more invested in it. And I've actually found that a common theme, I interviewed um Derek dyer, he's the uh, he's the guy that started the Utah Arts Alliance

Yeah, I think that's, that's kind of similar to why I started this podcast. You know, I felt that um art here can use more publicity. It could use more, just something, right, something to get, get people more invested in it. And I've actually found that a common theme, I interviewed um Derek dyer, he's the uh, he's the guy that started the Utah Arts Alliance

and it was kind of the same thing with him. He just, he wanted more exposure for Utah artists. So he started Excellence in the community. And so uh where, where is it going? How, how is it affecting the community?

and it was kind of the same thing with him. He just, he wanted more exposure for Utah artists. So he started Excellence in the community. And so uh where, where is it going? How, how is it affecting the community?

Well, we've, we've just crossed the about the 1100 concert threshold. So we've produced 1100 concerts. All the musicians have been paid. We do concerts are um,

Well, we've, we've just crossed the about the 1100 concert threshold. So we've produced 1100 concerts. All the musicians have been paid. We do concerts are um,

our flagship project, we do many different projects. They're all under the same umbrella. Excellence in the Community or Excellence concerts. The flagship project is at the Gallivan center. There we do big band dances on Tuesday nights on the outdoor stage

our flagship project, we do many different projects. They're all under the same umbrella. Excellence in the Community or Excellence concerts. The flagship project is at the Gallivan center. There we do big band dances on Tuesday nights on the outdoor stage

and Wednesday night concerts. Those are more variety, different styles of music. But we do those twice, so twice a week, all through the summer in the cold months, Once a week at the Gallivan Center.

and Wednesday night concerts. Those are more variety, different styles of music. But we do those twice, so twice a week, all through the summer in the cold months, Once a week at the Gallivan Center.

We work with the Holiday Arts Council and we do eight summer concerts there, we work with the Egyptian Theater in ogden and we do eight concerts a year. Their monthly there, we work with the Covey Center in Provo, we do eight or nine concerts a year there. And when budgets allow, we take concerts to rural Utah communities and to rural schools.

We work with the Holiday Arts Council and we do eight summer concerts there, we work with the Egyptian Theater in ogden and we do eight concerts a year. Their monthly there, we work with the Covey Center in Provo, we do eight or nine concerts a year there. And when budgets allow, we take concerts to rural Utah communities and to rural schools.

So last year we did 132 concerts and this year we're probably on track to do a similar number, but we've already done 20 concerts in rural communities.

So last year we did 132 concerts and this year we're probably on track to do a similar number, but we've already done 20 concerts in rural communities.

And I just want to make a comment there. You should see the kid's faces in salina or Gunnison or big No, or uh lower these are wonderful communities. They don't often get the quality of music that we would like to bring there. So it's a real fun project.

And I just want to make a comment there. You should see the kid's faces in salina or Gunnison or big No, or uh lower these are wonderful communities. They don't often get the quality of music that we would like to bring there. So it's a real fun project.

And so how, um,

And so how, um,

so how does the uh, how does this work? So is the Excellence in the community uh, Foundation. That's is it just making connections for bands to be able to play places? Is it scheduling that, how is, how is it, how does it work?

so how does the uh, how does this work? So is the Excellence in the community uh, Foundation. That's is it just making connections for bands to be able to play places? Is it scheduling that, how is, how is it, how does it work?

Were the booking agent? We, we book all of the,

Were the booking agent? We, we book all of the,

uh, we booked the concerts at the venues. I've just mentioned Excellence. Does it Excellence manages all of that, including the sound and lights in most cases, in some cases not. But by answering the question that

uh, we booked the concerts at the venues. I've just mentioned Excellence. Does it Excellence manages all of that, including the sound and lights in most cases, in some cases not. But by answering the question that

we

we

do it with the bands come to us, people to suggest artists. We try to check them out and we, we try to create as many opportunities as we can. And in fact, that's a, that's something

do it with the bands come to us, people to suggest artists. We try to check them out and we, we try to create as many opportunities as we can. And in fact, that's a, that's something

that my assistant was mentioning today, we can do a lot more. If we had more uh more funding, we see all kinds of opportunities. We can't get to

that my assistant was mentioning today, we can do a lot more. If we had more uh more funding, we see all kinds of opportunities. We can't get to

another important point Utah is growing.

another important point Utah is growing.

Oh, but back to one thing that you mentioned,

Oh, but back to one thing that you mentioned,

what we want to do. Once a journalist asked me a real good question that is very seldom asked. He said, what does success look like for excellence? What are you trying to do? We want

what we want to do. Once a journalist asked me a real good question that is very seldom asked. He said, what does success look like for excellence? What are you trying to do? We want

the fabulous talent resources in Utah to be woven into the fabric of Utah life to such an extent that

the fabulous talent resources in Utah to be woven into the fabric of Utah life to such an extent that

people grow up saying I had a fabulous community. I, I grew up surrounded by fabulous musical opportunities.

people grow up saying I had a fabulous community. I, I grew up surrounded by fabulous musical opportunities.

We want tourists, visitors to our town business travelers to say, you know, I knew Utah had great skiing, great mountains, great canyons. I didn't know they had great musicians. Now I do music to match the mountains. We want this talent resource that you've talked about that most of the Utah artists recognize we want that to be woven into the,

We want tourists, visitors to our town business travelers to say, you know, I knew Utah had great skiing, great mountains, great canyons. I didn't know they had great musicians. Now I do music to match the mountains. We want this talent resource that you've talked about that most of the Utah artists recognize we want that to be woven into the,

into the brand, into

into the brand, into

the, into the experience of Utah right,

the, into the experience of Utah right,

well said into the Utah experience and all of the talent is here. It's not like we have to develop it. The development needs to be on the receiving side. As you mentioned, the combustion is here on the artistic creative side on the receiving end. That's where we're working

well said into the Utah experience and all of the talent is here. It's not like we have to develop it. The development needs to be on the receiving side. As you mentioned, the combustion is here on the artistic creative side on the receiving end. That's where we're working

and so does and does excellence in the community primarily work with musicians or is there, uh, is there acting or other artistic avenues that it helps with

and so does and does excellence in the community primarily work with musicians or is there, uh, is there acting or other artistic avenues that it helps with

primarily with musicians often with dancers. But it is true that we have our eye on other fields, but for the moment we just do what we can with the, with the cards. We've got,

primarily with musicians often with dancers. But it is true that we have our eye on other fields, but for the moment we just do what we can with the, with the cards. We've got,

well that is, that's fantastic. I love that you're doing this. It's, it's good to see people in the community trying to help the community with learning, learning more about art and you know, just the publicity of it. And so I, I just think that's, that's such a wonderful thing that you're doing. Is there a future picture of excellence in the community that stems in Utah but grows out of Utah?

well that is, that's fantastic. I love that you're doing this. It's, it's good to see people in the community trying to help the community with learning, learning more about art and you know, just the publicity of it. And so I, I just think that's, that's such a wonderful thing that you're doing. Is there a future picture of excellence in the community that stems in Utah but grows out of Utah?

Very good question. People from other towns approaches all the time and say, could you come to Anaheim or Dallas or they made a recent one was Boise. Could you come and set up excellence there? The answer is we could, we would love to, we, we think we've got a real good track record, We've made a lot of mistakes, We've learned a lot of lessons but we think we know how to do it. We think we could help many communities and a community

Very good question. People from other towns approaches all the time and say, could you come to Anaheim or Dallas or they made a recent one was Boise. Could you come and set up excellence there? The answer is we could, we would love to, we, we think we've got a real good track record, We've made a lot of mistakes, We've learned a lot of lessons but we think we know how to do it. We think we could help many communities and a community

here in Utah just called us up and said can you come down here and guide us and uh we, we, we drove down and told them yes, we can help you avoid the mistakes and we can help you build a successful program. Now the other element we need to mention all of our concerts are offered at no charge to the public, their community concerts by design. We want kids to come. We want parents of modest means to bring their kids to these shows

here in Utah just called us up and said can you come down here and guide us and uh we, we, we drove down and told them yes, we can help you avoid the mistakes and we can help you build a successful program. Now the other element we need to mention all of our concerts are offered at no charge to the public, their community concerts by design. We want kids to come. We want parents of modest means to bring their kids to these shows

and just like you've talked about the power of art, the power of quality music to make a difference in a young child's life. It happened to me.

and just like you've talked about the power of art, the power of quality music to make a difference in a young child's life. It happened to me.

I was a clarinet player in the band. I went to a junior high school. Hello day assembly

I was a clarinet player in the band. I went to a junior high school. Hello day assembly

sitting down there. The curtain opens up and there's a rock band. First band I'd ever heard in my life live.

sitting down there. The curtain opens up and there's a rock band. First band I'd ever heard in my life live.

They, they start hitting those guitars that jangles went from those strings. There's

They, they start hitting those guitars that jangles went from those strings. There's

something powerful about that isn't there?

something powerful about that isn't there?

I was 12 years old

I was 12 years old

and so the strings are jangling. My soul is jangling. I turned to this stranger next to me, A kid sitting next to me. I don't know him say this is pretty cool.

and so the strings are jangling. My soul is jangling. I turned to this stranger next to me, A kid sitting next to me. I don't know him say this is pretty cool.

He says, I've got a guitar at home.

He says, I've got a guitar at home.

I followed him home, he taught me my first chords, we formed a band.

I followed him home, he taught me my first chords, we formed a band.

And this is the, this is another interesting point here. I have no musical gifts.

And this is the, this is another interesting point here. I have no musical gifts.

Many people have the ear that I know I don't have, many people have the musical imagination that I wish I had, but I have the heart that responds. So I've worked really hard. But I know like in that instance, um, this kid had the musical ear, the gifts and uh, he was a good mentor.

Many people have the ear that I know I don't have, many people have the musical imagination that I wish I had, but I have the heart that responds. So I've worked really hard. But I know like in that instance, um, this kid had the musical ear, the gifts and uh, he was a good mentor.

But now again, take that experience and multiply that times these elementary schools in rural communities.

But now again, take that experience and multiply that times these elementary schools in rural communities.

It's a beautiful thing to see some when, when we're doing concerts at these elementary schools in

It's a beautiful thing to see some when, when we're doing concerts at these elementary schools in

rural towns.

rural towns.

I look at the kids and then I can't sing the harmonies because my throat constricts.

I look at the kids and then I can't sing the harmonies because my throat constricts.

It's an easy, this is an easy gift that Utah could organize to give to Children throughout Utah and for generations to come just by recognizing Utah's historic um desire and drive for accomplishment in the arts. It goes way back to pioneer times. People have been surprised at what they found here in terms of art. So our simple messages, let's harness that

It's an easy, this is an easy gift that Utah could organize to give to Children throughout Utah and for generations to come just by recognizing Utah's historic um desire and drive for accomplishment in the arts. It goes way back to pioneer times. People have been surprised at what they found here in terms of art. So our simple messages, let's harness that

for economic, social, artistic and, and, and community development. Let's let's make this part of the brand

for economic, social, artistic and, and, and community development. Let's let's make this part of the brand

right there are Utah has, it has some gems in it that you just when, when you find them,

right there are Utah has, it has some gems in it that you just when, when you find them,

it's, it's kind of like just discovering something, you know, like discovering a new restaurant that you love. You know, or, or or discovering just just something that's, that's unique. Right on that note. What artists do you work with and have you worked

it's, it's kind of like just discovering something, you know, like discovering a new restaurant that you love. You know, or, or or discovering just just something that's, that's unique. Right on that note. What artists do you work with and have you worked

with? Well the list is really long, but let's just go recently. Um

with? Well the list is really long, but let's just go recently. Um

tomorrow night we have Ryan Shupe in the rubber band in the holiday town hall park Wednesday night we had Andreas ray as jazz quartet. A tribute to jazz guitar,

tomorrow night we have Ryan Shupe in the rubber band in the holiday town hall park Wednesday night we had Andreas ray as jazz quartet. A tribute to jazz guitar,

Tuesday night we had the night star jazz orchestra.

Tuesday night we had the night star jazz orchestra.

I'm going backwards here saturday night it was imagined. The Beatles tribute band

I'm going backwards here saturday night it was imagined. The Beatles tribute band

Wednesday night it was jazzy Olivo. she's from the Dominican republic lives in Utah uh singing her original songs. So she's a kind of a latin jazz artist.

Wednesday night it was jazzy Olivo. she's from the Dominican republic lives in Utah uh singing her original songs. So she's a kind of a latin jazz artist.

Oh, Tuesday night, I think it was the, the phoenix big band, you know, let me just get the list

Oh, Tuesday night, I think it was the, the phoenix big band, you know, let me just get the list

out. Is

out. Is

that enough or? Oh,

that enough or? Oh,

that's, that's plenty. I mean it seems like it seems like you've,

that's, that's plenty. I mean it seems like it seems like you've,

you've

you've

grown quite a bit.

grown quite a bit.

Oh, so

Oh, so

it's, I mean it's, it's, yeah, it seems like you have a lot of artists and you've grown

it's, I mean it's, it's, yeah, it seems like you have a lot of artists and you've grown

to the point where this is a really, really big thing that's happening.

to the point where this is a really, really big thing that's happening.

Uh we, we started with one concert and the owner of hires big h restaurants, Mark Hale heard my pitch what I was trying to do in 2005

Uh we, we started with one concert and the owner of hires big h restaurants, Mark Hale heard my pitch what I was trying to do in 2005

in those days we charge for tickets. We put my group larkin spur at the Westminster College Viv gore auditorium. We sold it out.

in those days we charge for tickets. We put my group larkin spur at the Westminster College Viv gore auditorium. We sold it out.

I gather up the money, I paid the bills, paid the band, paid the venue, then I took the rest of the money to give back to Mark Hale and he said, keep the money, put on another show. So that's 1100 concerts ago and what I wanted to say is artists from the Utah opera call us and say, can, can we work with you. The Utah symphony. We have many great relationships with Utah symphony players. There's the intermezzo chamber music called classical,

I gather up the money, I paid the bills, paid the band, paid the venue, then I took the rest of the money to give back to Mark Hale and he said, keep the money, put on another show. So that's 1100 concerts ago and what I wanted to say is artists from the Utah opera call us and say, can, can we work with you. The Utah symphony. We have many great relationships with Utah symphony players. There's the intermezzo chamber music called classical,

a chamber music group and they do fabulous work and we work with them regularly and it's a joy and I tell people we work really hard. But the secret is um,

a chamber music group and they do fabulous work and we work with them regularly and it's a joy and I tell people we work really hard. But the secret is um,

it doesn't feel like work.

it doesn't feel like work.

You know how it is when there's a good musical experience. The soul, the heart is refreshed.

You know how it is when there's a good musical experience. The soul, the heart is refreshed.

You're enjoying doing it at the same time.

You're enjoying doing it at the same time.

Oh yeah, we go home, all of us, we go home just smiling saying that was fun. That one went well.

Oh yeah, we go home, all of us, we go home just smiling saying that was fun. That one went well.

It's a wonderful thing. And we would just like more people to experience it. We would like to find the resources to take this throughout the state on a regular basis. We have towns that ask us, when can you come? And we have to say we have to check the budgets and get back to you. That's a problem we'd like to solve.

It's a wonderful thing. And we would just like more people to experience it. We would like to find the resources to take this throughout the state on a regular basis. We have towns that ask us, when can you come? And we have to say we have to check the budgets and get back to you. That's a problem we'd like to solve.

So I would even go as far to say that that effect that you were describing, that happens in, in those small towns with people that don't get the type of entertainment that you bring.

So I would even go as far to say that that effect that you were describing, that happens in, in those small towns with people that don't get the type of entertainment that you bring.

Um, I would say that that also is having an effect on the musicians that are, that are enjoying the, these, these gigs that they're, that they can play through

Um, I would say that that also is having an effect on the musicians that are, that are enjoying the, these, these gigs that they're, that they can play through

you. I could provide a lot of letters from musicians, uh, that would illustrate the point you bring up in their own words, I'm a musician, you're a musician. Um many of the people that work with excellence or musicians

you. I could provide a lot of letters from musicians, uh, that would illustrate the point you bring up in their own words, I'm a musician, you're a musician. Um many of the people that work with excellence or musicians

and the point there is, I knew what was missing

and the point there is, I knew what was missing

and what was missing was

and what was missing was

I wanted someone to understand how, how significant our accomplishments were and how those accomplishments might enrich the quality of life in Utah

I wanted someone to understand how, how significant our accomplishments were and how those accomplishments might enrich the quality of life in Utah

instead of the general concept of the Utah musician is now, this is a funny story. It ties into this point. Many people in America,

instead of the general concept of the Utah musician is now, this is a funny story. It ties into this point. Many people in America,

too many seem to need

too many seem to need

guidance from the media as to what, where they should put their attention regarding music

guidance from the media as to what, where they should put their attention regarding music

and

and

what we're trying to say is

what we're trying to say is

celebrity is not always does not always equate musical excellence or to musical excellence

celebrity is not always does not always equate musical excellence or to musical excellence

were saying, wouldn't it be wonderful if Utah as a state would recognize accomplishment, whether or not the people were famous

were saying, wouldn't it be wonderful if Utah as a state would recognize accomplishment, whether or not the people were famous

and, and support and honor and create opportunities based on musical excellence.

and, and support and honor and create opportunities based on musical excellence.

I think that'd be a great, a great example for the rest of the nation, just to support when people get good,

I think that'd be a great, a great example for the rest of the nation, just to support when people get good,

put that, put that accomplishment to use,

put that, put that accomplishment to use,

I agree with that. 100% and so on that we're going to go to a break and we'll be right back, we're talking with Jeff Whiteley, he is the founder of the excellence in the community foundation and this has just been an excellent interview. We can't wait to just dive in to his backstory and how he got to where he is, we'll be right back

I agree with that. 100% and so on that we're going to go to a break and we'll be right back, we're talking with Jeff Whiteley, he is the founder of the excellence in the community foundation and this has just been an excellent interview. We can't wait to just dive in to his backstory and how he got to where he is, we'll be right back

welcome back to the path of art. We're here with Jeff Whiteley, the founder of the Excellence in the Community Foundation and it's been a great discussion so far, uh Jeff, I'd like to dive just kind of into your past a little bit like what got you interested in music in the first place. We kind of talked about that. Uh what got you interested in in rock music, You, you had that experience where you were playing the clarinet and you just saw the rock band, which is, you know, when you hear

welcome back to the path of art. We're here with Jeff Whiteley, the founder of the Excellence in the Community Foundation and it's been a great discussion so far, uh Jeff, I'd like to dive just kind of into your past a little bit like what got you interested in music in the first place. We kind of talked about that. Uh what got you interested in in rock music, You, you had that experience where you were playing the clarinet and you just saw the rock band, which is, you know, when you hear

rock music for the first time as a kid is kind of the same thing. Kind of happened to me. I was, I was in my bedroom and I just got a stereo, you know, a radio and I turned it on to like an alternative rock station. This was early nineties, right? And I heard smashing pumpkins for the first time bullet with Butterfly Wings, and I was just like, oh my gosh, this is me.

rock music for the first time as a kid is kind of the same thing. Kind of happened to me. I was, I was in my bedroom and I just got a stereo, you know, a radio and I turned it on to like an alternative rock station. This was early nineties, right? And I heard smashing pumpkins for the first time bullet with Butterfly Wings, and I was just like, oh my gosh, this is me.

So I just kind of want to ask you about, you know, uh more about that. So what, what got you to pursue music more? You know, when, when you decided that music was for you?

So I just kind of want to ask you about, you know, uh more about that. So what, what got you to pursue music more? You know, when, when you decided that music was for you?

Well, I, when I was very young, my mother used to make sure we went to the Utah Symphony and they had these saturday concerts in the Tabernacle. I remember sitting there, so I must have been

Well, I, when I was very young, my mother used to make sure we went to the Utah Symphony and they had these saturday concerts in the Tabernacle. I remember sitting there, so I must have been

nine or 10

nine or 10

that age

that age

And they were playing the overture to 18, 12 Tchaikovsky. And I remember

And they were playing the overture to 18, 12 Tchaikovsky. And I remember

responding, I remember as a little kid thinking something's going on here,

responding, I remember as a little kid thinking something's going on here,

something's reaching me.

something's reaching me.

That was probably my first

That was probably my first

awakening towards music.

awakening towards music.

And then many people mentioned this of my age. I was sitting at home on sunday night with the family watching Ed Sullivan, we had a black and white Admiral television set and Ed Sullivan introduced the Beatles.

And then many people mentioned this of my age. I was sitting at home on sunday night with the family watching Ed Sullivan, we had a black and white Admiral television set and Ed Sullivan introduced the Beatles.

There they were. And the first song they played was all my loving.

There they were. And the first song they played was all my loving.

Again. Something clicked within me saying, I think I'd like to do that.

Again. Something clicked within me saying, I think I'd like to do that.

Then I mentioned that experience already about the Junior High School

Then I mentioned that experience already about the Junior High School

curtain

curtain

going up.

going up.

So, we were

So, we were

In rock bands from the age of 12 and we practiced three hours a day, three nights a week for the next six years.

In rock bands from the age of 12 and we practiced three hours a day, three nights a week for the next six years.

And I loved it. I loved, I loved the gear, I loved looking at catalogs, showing guitars and amplifiers, and the whole thing was fun

And I loved it. I loved, I loved the gear, I loved looking at catalogs, showing guitars and amplifiers, and the whole thing was fun

and the friendships were great. So

and the friendships were great. So

I was just playing in bands. And then,

I was just playing in bands. And then,

uh,

uh,

then everything was just fine graduate from high school. Then the band breaks up. Some people go different places, we're not in the same areas. So then we formed a band there at college. That got pretty good.

then everything was just fine graduate from high school. Then the band breaks up. Some people go different places, we're not in the same areas. So then we formed a band there at college. That got pretty good.

And then there was the mission and that interrupted things. And then when we came back, it was the era of disco

And then there was the mission and that interrupted things. And then when we came back, it was the era of disco

seventies,

seventies,

Mid 70s. So I came back in 75 and we tried to get keep a band going.

Mid 70s. So I came back in 75 and we tried to get keep a band going.

Musicians were getting married. Uh, no one wanted a live band. The, the nightclubs were organized for the disco kind of thing. The DJs,

Musicians were getting married. Uh, no one wanted a live band. The, the nightclubs were organized for the disco kind of thing. The DJs,

it was very hard to keep it going.

it was very hard to keep it going.

And you said you mentioned marriage, that's when the band that I had, that was starting to actually do something broke up as well was when me and my bass player, I had a kid and he had a kid and then the drummer decided that she wanted to play in her other band. You know, the whole dual band things and that happens a lot, doesn't it?

And you said you mentioned marriage, that's when the band that I had, that was starting to actually do something broke up as well was when me and my bass player, I had a kid and he had a kid and then the drummer decided that she wanted to play in her other band. You know, the whole dual band things and that happens a lot, doesn't it?

Where, where, where family because family is, is a central part of the culture here. I would say

Where, where, where family because family is, is a central part of the culture here. I would say

yes and I think it's a very good thing and it's uh, it's a conflict that people have to think about. But I think, I think this is actually, this is where a negative or a possible obstacle has been, can be turned into a positive

yes and I think it's a very good thing and it's uh, it's a conflict that people have to think about. But I think, I think this is actually, this is where a negative or a possible obstacle has been, can be turned into a positive

because of the emphasis on family, because of the emphasis on the natural beauty of Utah. Many fabulous musicians who otherwise would leave the state choose to stay

because of the emphasis on family, because of the emphasis on the natural beauty of Utah. Many fabulous musicians who otherwise would leave the state choose to stay

and they make their peace. I work with them all the time. They've got another job, but there have never given up on music and they're just fantastic. But for family reasons and other reasons they choose to stay. And that's one of my points, I'm making the presentations. Uh, this is a positive cycle that spirals upward.

and they make their peace. I work with them all the time. They've got another job, but there have never given up on music and they're just fantastic. But for family reasons and other reasons they choose to stay. And that's one of my points, I'm making the presentations. Uh, this is a positive cycle that spirals upward.

The quality of life keeps fabulous musicians here in Utah that could make a living in new york, Nashville L. A. Or Chicago or elsewhere they choose to stay here and then by choosing to stay here that accelerates the quality of life or enhances the quality of life even more. We just seek to get this cycle moving more quickly. But back to another point, there was a moment.

The quality of life keeps fabulous musicians here in Utah that could make a living in new york, Nashville L. A. Or Chicago or elsewhere they choose to stay here and then by choosing to stay here that accelerates the quality of life or enhances the quality of life even more. We just seek to get this cycle moving more quickly. But back to another point, there was a moment.

Well, I'll go back one earth thing.

Well, I'll go back one earth thing.

Oftentimes what appears to be negative can be turned into a positive with the right attitude,

Oftentimes what appears to be negative can be turned into a positive with the right attitude,

correct.

correct.

When I graduated from college, I didn't graduate in music, I thought music was too much fun and that I was supposed to be at college to be pursuing things that were a little more.

When I graduated from college, I didn't graduate in music, I thought music was too much fun and that I was supposed to be at college to be pursuing things that were a little more.

I had a very similar train of thought when I went into college.

I had a very similar train of thought when I went into college.

So I've got to be serious here. I've got, so I went into other courses and things I loved,

So I've got to be serious here. I've got, so I went into other courses and things I loved,

but when I graduated, I couldn't find a job

but when I graduated, I couldn't find a job

and I was looking for uh, these job opportunities in the want ads. I couldn't find anything.

and I was looking for uh, these job opportunities in the want ads. I couldn't find anything.

I had a former student of mine who had hustled a job as a photographer for photojournalist, for Associated Press in paris.

I had a former student of mine who had hustled a job as a photographer for photojournalist, for Associated Press in paris.

I wrote him and said, well, I don't have anything cooking here, Could I come and spend two weeks with you?

I wrote him and said, well, I don't have anything cooking here, Could I come and spend two weeks with you?

So my brother and I were guitar players, he said, yes, come. So we took the martin acoustics

So my brother and I were guitar players, he said, yes, come. So we took the martin acoustics

and

and

flew to paris and when we got to his apartment, he said, I gotta go, I my my work is taking me to Argentina to cover the World Cup, I'll be gone for a month. Just don't ruin the apartment. Here are the keys.

flew to paris and when we got to his apartment, he said, I gotta go, I my my work is taking me to Argentina to cover the World Cup, I'll be gone for a month. Just don't ruin the apartment. Here are the keys.

So we were young and we had money for two weeks, but we had

So we were young and we had money for two weeks, but we had

the lodging for a month.

the lodging for a month.

So the money ran out after two weeks.

So the money ran out after two weeks.

And so what do you do?

And so what do you do?

Did you go home?

Did you go home?

Well

Well

maybe play on the quarter.

maybe play on the quarter.

That's exactly what we did. So we became street musicians

That's exactly what we did. So we became street musicians

and now the interesting thing there is that was kind of the big education in my life because when we started out, we were frightened and when you're frightened,

and now the interesting thing there is that was kind of the big education in my life because when we started out, we were frightened and when you're frightened,

you can't be that good. The vibration you're sending out to the public is we shouldn't be here. We're not certain of ourselves. And if you're a bad street musician, you're kind of in the way, especially in a paris Metro tunnel, Your guitar case is on the floor where they want to put their feet. So if you're no good, you're just kind of a nuisance. And if you're shy or feeling embarrassed or

you can't be that good. The vibration you're sending out to the public is we shouldn't be here. We're not certain of ourselves. And if you're a bad street musician, you're kind of in the way, especially in a paris Metro tunnel, Your guitar case is on the floor where they want to put their feet. So if you're no good, you're just kind of a nuisance. And if you're shy or feeling embarrassed or

scared,

scared,

no one's gonna throw money. So we knew we had to figure out how to relax and here's the here's the big lesson

no one's gonna throw money. So we knew we had to figure out how to relax and here's the here's the big lesson

your joy in being a musician and being young and speaking french and being in paris has to be stronger than the indifference

your joy in being a musician and being young and speaking french and being in paris has to be stronger than the indifference

of the passers. The passers by

of the passers. The passers by

and you have to kind of reach inside yourself and say how good am I?

and you have to kind of reach inside yourself and say how good am I?

That's that is so hard when you, when you question yourself, how good am I? Because it

That's that is so hard when you, when you question yourself, how good am I? Because it

you spend so much time writing and you spend so much time learning songs and then sometimes you just don't know

you spend so much time writing and you spend so much time learning songs and then sometimes you just don't know

am I any good?

am I any good?

Well, in in our case you have to put in the in the street singers case you put your back against the wall, you reach inside yourself and you realize I've got to make this work or I've got to go home.

Well, in in our case you have to put in the in the street singers case you put your back against the wall, you reach inside yourself and you realize I've got to make this work or I've got to go home.

So we learned how to get them to stop. And that's, that was the big education for me and

So we learned how to get them to stop. And that's, that was the big education for me and

our host was gone all the time. We were supposed to be gone for two weeks. We were there for six months

our host was gone all the time. We were supposed to be gone for two weeks. We were there for six months

and the big mistake in my life was coming home.

and the big mistake in my life was coming home.

We, we started in the streets but we ended up. My brother hustled us a concert tour of Switzerland, sponsored by the, one of the largest travel agencies in Switzerland. So they paid us to sing and we were kind of debate and put in the newspapers to attract people to come to these concerts and then we would sing and then the swiss company would talk about their tours to America and we would sing some more

We, we started in the streets but we ended up. My brother hustled us a concert tour of Switzerland, sponsored by the, one of the largest travel agencies in Switzerland. So they paid us to sing and we were kind of debate and put in the newspapers to attract people to come to these concerts and then we would sing and then the swiss company would talk about their tours to America and we would sing some more

and it was just great and that's where the school idea came from. The swiss company was taking us to all of the major swiss cities

and it was just great and that's where the school idea came from. The swiss company was taking us to all of the major swiss cities

and we said to them, we're not doing anything in the day

and we said to them, we're not doing anything in the day

would be delighted to play in a swiss school,

would be delighted to play in a swiss school,

they organized those things and it was a wonderful experience.

they organized those things and it was a wonderful experience.

So the point is

So the point is

in becoming a street musician,

in becoming a street musician,

I became a street musician because I couldn't find a job

I became a street musician because I couldn't find a job

and it turned into the snowball rolling downhill. And the big mistake, as I said was, I would love to give this talk to high school students

and it turned into the snowball rolling downhill. And the big mistake, as I said was, I would love to give this talk to high school students

and let them know, use me as a bad example story one should I wish someone had told me what an opportunity looks like.

and let them know, use me as a bad example story one should I wish someone had told me what an opportunity looks like.

It's hard to tell,

It's hard to tell,

but an opportunity

but an opportunity

has a price tag on it.

has a price tag on it.

In our case a smart move would have been were young,

In our case a smart move would have been were young,

we're free, we're not married.

we're free, we're not married.

My brother spoke german, I spoke french. We had these people in Switzerland wanting to help us stay.

My brother spoke german, I spoke french. We had these people in Switzerland wanting to help us stay.

If a role at the snowball is rolling downhill, stay, see how far it goes,

If a role at the snowball is rolling downhill, stay, see how far it goes,

that

that

is some that is some strong advice.

is some that is some strong advice.

And I see we are Our way of thinking was we'll be back.

And I see we are Our way of thinking was we'll be back.

But there's that robert frost poem,

But there's that robert frost poem,

you know, two roads diverged in a yellow wood,

you know, two roads diverged in a yellow wood,

but

but

two roads diverged in yellow wood long. I stood and I'm not gonna give the whole pump. I'm trying to I'm trying to get to the line I'm looking for. I'm sorry, I doubted if I would ever be back, but knowing how way leads on to way, I doubted if I would ever be back. So the point is that concept of nothing cooking on the job front. So go to paris and then run out of money in paris. Oh, go try the Metro's

two roads diverged in yellow wood long. I stood and I'm not gonna give the whole pump. I'm trying to I'm trying to get to the line I'm looking for. I'm sorry, I doubted if I would ever be back, but knowing how way leads on to way, I doubted if I would ever be back. So the point is that concept of nothing cooking on the job front. So go to paris and then run out of money in paris. Oh, go try the Metro's

and then, oh, this is a failure. Oh, well, let's analyze that and turn it around. And so that's where excellence comes from.

and then, oh, this is a failure. Oh, well, let's analyze that and turn it around. And so that's where excellence comes from.

Yeah, I was gonna say, I've learned something recently that um,

Yeah, I was gonna say, I've learned something recently that um,

running away from these failures through life,

running away from these failures through life,

it means that you're actually running away from victories because failures can be turned into victories if you keep pushing through. So how did you find the victory of excellence in the community? Through

it means that you're actually running away from victories because failures can be turned into victories if you keep pushing through. So how did you find the victory of excellence in the community? Through

through

through

this? Yeah.

this? Yeah.

Uh, we had, so that was the first adventure in France. And then later

Uh, we had, so that was the first adventure in France. And then later

I heard uh, this young woman singing and she had the voice of an angel and I said to her in Utah, I said to her, if if you were singing in the streets of paris, something would happen.

I heard uh, this young woman singing and she had the voice of an angel and I said to her in Utah, I said to her, if if you were singing in the streets of paris, something would happen.

And she surprised me by saying, let's go see.

And she surprised me by saying, let's go see.

So I played acoustic guitar, Martin, D 35, she had a mandolin and she sang and we started singing in the streets of France. The very first thing we did was recorded by uh, they called those uh, pirate radio stations unauthorized radio stations.

So I played acoustic guitar, Martin, D 35, she had a mandolin and she sang and we started singing in the streets of France. The very first thing we did was recorded by uh, they called those uh, pirate radio stations unauthorized radio stations.

The owner of that, he recorded it and then broadcast that and

The owner of that, he recorded it and then broadcast that and

it was again the case of the snowball rolling downhill that her voice was such that people

it was again the case of the snowball rolling downhill that her voice was such that people

recognized the quality and stopped and pretty soon we were invited to be on french television, we were invited to perform at the, that's the biggest musical festival in France. And it was, it was again, this is part of the educational process, the french people by history, by education by inclination and culture.

recognized the quality and stopped and pretty soon we were invited to be on french television, we were invited to perform at the, that's the biggest musical festival in France. And it was, it was again, this is part of the educational process, the french people by history, by education by inclination and culture.

They stop when the quality catches their attention and they have their own inner

They stop when the quality catches their attention and they have their own inner

uh, compass to say, hey, this might be on a street corner, but there's something going on here.

uh, compass to say, hey, this might be on a street corner, but there's something going on here.

And that's what I've always loved about France. I could tell more stories about that. They're really fun.

And that's what I've always loved about France. I could tell more stories about that. They're really fun.

So all of that, the contrast between the sense of momentum in France where you could go from the street to an invitation to be on television

So all of that, the contrast between the sense of momentum in France where you could go from the street to an invitation to be on television

was really exciting. And we had the same naive thought

was really exciting. And we had the same naive thought

if we can do this in France, think what we can do in, in Utah.

if we can do this in France, think what we can do in, in Utah.

But the years went by, we were the regulars at the stein eriksen Lodge for a couple of years, we were the river horse, we played things events for the Utah Symphony. We played for the Governor

But the years went by, we were the regulars at the stein eriksen Lodge for a couple of years, we were the river horse, we played things events for the Utah Symphony. We played for the Governor

each time we thought something's going to happen.

each time we thought something's going to happen.

You know, there's that hope we're going to go somewhere. This is getting really good.

You know, there's that hope we're going to go somewhere. This is getting really good.

And

And

yes, it didn't go anywhere. But that again, that's where things changed. Instead of looking at that as a failure.

yes, it didn't go anywhere. But that again, that's where things changed. Instead of looking at that as a failure.

That's, this is the zen concept of absence, calling forth presence, what isn't there? That should be there. So as soon as I started saying, it's not just larkin spur, it's the whole concept of music in Utah that is underestimated, underutilized under visible

That's, this is the zen concept of absence, calling forth presence, what isn't there? That should be there. So as soon as I started saying, it's not just larkin spur, it's the whole concept of music in Utah that is underestimated, underutilized under visible

And it's right here ready to go. So in 2005 there were lots of discussions in Salt Lake City about an idea called downtown rising

And it's right here ready to go. So in 2005 there were lots of discussions in Salt Lake City about an idea called downtown rising

and hey,

and hey,

I said, I saw this in the newspaper. If you want to, if you want a great downtown, just find an upscale venue and put Utah's best musicians in their 365 nights of the year. And if the locals don't come, the tourists would love to see that and the tourists would be dazzled.

I said, I saw this in the newspaper. If you want to, if you want a great downtown, just find an upscale venue and put Utah's best musicians in their 365 nights of the year. And if the locals don't come, the tourists would love to see that and the tourists would be dazzled.

The tourists would be stunned and amazed at what they had never heard about. But they discovered in Utah, fabulous music of all genres, all genres. So I took that to different people and

The tourists would be stunned and amazed at what they had never heard about. But they discovered in Utah, fabulous music of all genres, all genres. So I took that to different people and

The one who listened

The one who listened

was a mayor ralph Becker

was a mayor ralph Becker

and I was managed to get an appointment with him

and I was managed to get an appointment with him

and he was really tired and they ushered me into this, his uh, kind of conference room area, He was very polite

and he was really tired and they ushered me into this, his uh, kind of conference room area, He was very polite

but he's, it looked like I was just boring him to death. I was talking about these things.

but he's, it looked like I was just boring him to death. I was talking about these things.

And then I said, the line,

And then I said, the line,

you know, Mayor Becker, Salt Lake City is really close to being a magnificent city

you know, Mayor Becker, Salt Lake City is really close to being a magnificent city

and he just came alive. That's what I believe.

and he just came alive. That's what I believe.

That's why I ran

That's why I ran

and now we were talking, I said, well this simple exercise of harnessing the talent that is already here for the public good.

and now we were talking, I said, well this simple exercise of harnessing the talent that is already here for the public good.

That will be a big step towards

That will be a big step towards

getting Salt Lake City into the magnificent category.

getting Salt Lake City into the magnificent category.

So some time went by and then his office called me

So some time went by and then his office called me

and they said, we're doing these meetings about the arts in downtown Salt Lake City. Mayor Becker wants you to be a participant.

and they said, we're doing these meetings about the arts in downtown Salt Lake City. Mayor Becker wants you to be a participant.

So there were three meetings. This is where

So there were three meetings. This is where

I'm very grateful.

I'm very grateful.

I was the only practicing musician in this group of people invitation only. And it was the, the executives of the Utah Symphony, the executives of Ballet West Architects, city planners, lawyers know musicians. So

I was the only practicing musician in this group of people invitation only. And it was the, the executives of the Utah Symphony, the executives of Ballet West Architects, city planners, lawyers know musicians. So

you were probably the one that knew the most about it.

you were probably the one that knew the most about it.

Well as I was there,

Well as I was there,

I was intimidated by the, the, these people who had much more success than I had.

I was intimidated by the, the, these people who had much more success than I had.

And at the opening reception, Mayor Becker

And at the opening reception, Mayor Becker

greeted me and then he took me aside and said, I know what you want to do

greeted me and then he took me aside and said, I know what you want to do

and

and

I know you're kind of shy, speak up and tell these people what you told me.

I know you're kind of shy, speak up and tell these people what you told me.

I'm paraphrasing. But that was the sense.

I'm paraphrasing. But that was the sense.

So I did. And the people didn't like it.

So I did. And the people didn't like it.

Yeah,

Yeah,

they, people would come to me and say you say the same thing over and over again. I said, yeah, because I think this is the answer

they, people would come to me and say you say the same thing over and over again. I said, yeah, because I think this is the answer

and maybe people aren't listening

and maybe people aren't listening

and maybe and and one guy took me aside and real nice guy, very competent and very high official in uh in city government.

and maybe and and one guy took me aside and real nice guy, very competent and very high official in uh in city government.

He said with some heat. Okay, Whiteley. You say this all the time. I don't buy it.

He said with some heat. Okay, Whiteley. You say this all the time. I don't buy it.

You say these musicians are fantastic. If they were any good, they'd leave town, they'd go to new york that get famous and then would be interested

You say these musicians are fantastic. If they were any good, they'd leave town, they'd go to new york that get famous and then would be interested

again.

again.

That was such a strange idea to me that I was taken aback. I didn't have the right answer. Right at the moment.

That was such a strange idea to me that I was taken aback. I didn't have the right answer. Right at the moment.

Right? It is hard in those situations, especially when, I mean, even just you telling me that he said said that like, oh my gosh, just kind of just kind of triggers me. But in the moment I imagine it's hard to come up with a response, Right?

Right? It is hard in those situations, especially when, I mean, even just you telling me that he said said that like, oh my gosh, just kind of just kind of triggers me. But in the moment I imagine it's hard to come up with a response, Right?

Right. So I went to some of the musicians we work with and uh

Right. So I went to some of the musicians we work with and uh

I said, what would you answer him if this comes up again?

I said, what would you answer him if this comes up again?

And one of them said, tell him he doesn't know what he's talking

And one of them said, tell him he doesn't know what he's talking

about.

about.

My group is booked in Carnegie Hall in two months. That's a good answer.

My group is booked in Carnegie Hall in two months. That's a good answer.

Another one, This was great from a jazz musician, jazz sax player. Tell that guy, Maybe we like it here.

Another one, This was great from a jazz musician, jazz sax player. Tell that guy, Maybe we like it here.

But

But

when I tell that story, many times people laugh because the person saying to me, if they were good, they would leave. So that week so that I could know if they were any good. It's actually a kind of a sad statement on, he needed

when I tell that story, many times people laugh because the person saying to me, if they were good, they would leave. So that week so that I could know if they were any good. It's actually a kind of a sad statement on, he needed

someone to tell him, you know,

someone to tell him, you know,

like he couldn't tell.

like he couldn't tell.

Yeah, and it's kind of like that woody allen joke, I would never go out with a girl who would be crazy enough to go out with me.

Yeah, and it's kind of like that woody allen joke, I would never go out with a girl who would be crazy enough to go out with me.

It's

It's

like I could never recognize Utah talent as talented because I've got a chip on my shoulder. It has to come from outside before we'll recognize it.

like I could never recognize Utah talent as talented because I've got a chip on my shoulder. It has to come from outside before we'll recognize it.

But now this is, I'm just cutting to the chase here. The final, there were three meetings at the final meeting

But now this is, I'm just cutting to the chase here. The final, there were three meetings at the final meeting

to lead the day of the Gallivan center who had not been invited to these meetings. She's the manager of the Gallivan center. She was there because the meeting was in Gallivan hall and her job was to pass out the parking validations