The other theme of the book is that our happiness, our sense of wonder, or whatever it is it makes us happy, depends on the stories we write for ourselves. Because we're always writing a story. You have this internal monologue in your head all the time, right, you're talking to yourself constantly.

The other theme of the book is that our happiness, our sense of wonder, or whatever it is it makes us happy, depends on the stories we write for ourselves. Because we're always writing a story. You have this internal monologue in your head all the time, right, you're talking to yourself constantly.

Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is author Douglas Westerbeek. He worked at one of the largest libraries in the US and has spent the last decade on the local panel of the International Dublin Literary Award, reading current literary novels and nominating the best for selection. Although he has a background in screenwriting, the Dublin experience inspired him to write his own novel discussed here. It's called A Short Walk through a Wide World.

Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is author Douglas Westerbeek. He worked at one of the largest libraries in the US and has spent the last decade on the local panel of the International Dublin Literary Award, reading current literary novels and nominating the best for selection. Although he has a background in screenwriting, the Dublin experience inspired him to write his own novel discussed here. It's called A Short Walk through a Wide World.

Hi, Doug, Welcome to the show.

Hi, Doug, Welcome to the show.

Hi are you. It's good to be here.

Hi are you. It's good to be here.

I am very happy to have you on. We are sitting together in a studio in Columbus, Ohio. It's very rare that I get to do interviews in person in Columbus, so this is a real treat. Live in Cleveland for people who don't know, that's about two hours away from here. So thank you for coming down. We're going to be discussing your novel, which is a great adventure story called A Short Walk through a Wide World. But before we get into that, we'll start like we always do with the parable. In the Parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear, and the grandchild stops think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work.

I am very happy to have you on. We are sitting together in a studio in Columbus, Ohio. It's very rare that I get to do interviews in person in Columbus, so this is a real treat. Live in Cleveland for people who don't know, that's about two hours away from here. So thank you for coming down. We're going to be discussing your novel, which is a great adventure story called A Short Walk through a Wide World. But before we get into that, we'll start like we always do with the parable. In the Parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear, and the grandchild stops think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work.

That you do. So my first thought goes to Carly Jung because he always used to talk about he had these twelve archetypes, and one of them was the shadow. And this the first thing I thought when I hear this is so the shadow is this part of you that you bury. You just bury it your whole life, like way down there, because it's really the darkest side of you. And a lot of people are just don't even realize it's there and live in denial of it. So on and so forth. Everybody ignores this and most people aren't even aware of it, although every once in a while, you know, you catch yourself thinking something or you lose your temper or whatever, and it's there and we all kind of know it's there, but you bury it, so you never know. But what Young used to say was that you really want to know it, You really want to be familiar with it, you really want to make friends with it. So like the impulses say, yeah, you want to feed the good wolf, and you should because I remember, you know, for a long time, my writing wasn't getting me anywhere, and I was just on the sidelines and I was living, you know whatever, my domesticated life, and I would see even friends of mine who had all the success, and I could have been really embittered it, and I remember making the conscious choice, I'm not going to be that person. I don't want. I'm going to be very happy when someone else like gets wherever they get to because they're living the life they want to live, and that's great for them, and I want them success. But on the other hand, the other wolf, the one that you know you impulsibly don't want to feed, might not be the best idea because you know, I mean, you think about even the best people out there, Like you can imagine like like mother Teresa, right, she goes down to Calcutta and she wants to feed the poor, and I think a lot of people picture this like you know, this kind old lady handing out treats the kids, and it's not the way it was. This is a huge undertaking right, It's like running a corporation or something. It's huge. And from what I understand, Mother Teresa was tough. She was not easy to work for. She was really demanding. She did not put up with fools all that kind of stuff because she had to do this incredible job. So it takes a certain amount of ruthlessness and relentlessness to get that done. And if she had and tapped into that, maybe she would not have been able to do the incredible, miraculous things that she did.

That you do. So my first thought goes to Carly Jung because he always used to talk about he had these twelve archetypes, and one of them was the shadow. And this the first thing I thought when I hear this is so the shadow is this part of you that you bury. You just bury it your whole life, like way down there, because it's really the darkest side of you. And a lot of people are just don't even realize it's there and live in denial of it. So on and so forth. Everybody ignores this and most people aren't even aware of it, although every once in a while, you know, you catch yourself thinking something or you lose your temper or whatever, and it's there and we all kind of know it's there, but you bury it, so you never know. But what Young used to say was that you really want to know it, You really want to be familiar with it, you really want to make friends with it. So like the impulses say, yeah, you want to feed the good wolf, and you should because I remember, you know, for a long time, my writing wasn't getting me anywhere, and I was just on the sidelines and I was living, you know whatever, my domesticated life, and I would see even friends of mine who had all the success, and I could have been really embittered it, and I remember making the conscious choice, I'm not going to be that person. I don't want. I'm going to be very happy when someone else like gets wherever they get to because they're living the life they want to live, and that's great for them, and I want them success. But on the other hand, the other wolf, the one that you know you impulsibly don't want to feed, might not be the best idea because you know, I mean, you think about even the best people out there, Like you can imagine like like mother Teresa, right, she goes down to Calcutta and she wants to feed the poor, and I think a lot of people picture this like you know, this kind old lady handing out treats the kids, and it's not the way it was. This is a huge undertaking right, It's like running a corporation or something. It's huge. And from what I understand, Mother Teresa was tough. She was not easy to work for. She was really demanding. She did not put up with fools all that kind of stuff because she had to do this incredible job. So it takes a certain amount of ruthlessness and relentlessness to get that done. And if she had and tapped into that, maybe she would not have been able to do the incredible, miraculous things that she did.

She was an inveterate gambler too. I heard I didn't know I'm making that. I was like, what I sort of thing of what insult I could lab at Mother Teresa. That wouldn't get me, like permanent wouldn't infuriate the entire audience and not the gambling's not serious? But no, that's not true. Go on, sorry, I couldn't resist.

She was an inveterate gambler too. I heard I didn't know I'm making that. I was like, what I sort of thing of what insult I could lab at Mother Teresa. That wouldn't get me, like permanent wouldn't infuriate the entire audience and not the gambling's not serious? But no, that's not true. Go on, sorry, I couldn't resist.

That's a good one. But yeah, I think that was my whole point. This darkness and you kind of helps propel you forward, kind of helps you get your task done. It kind of makes you focus. It kind of like cuts out the distractions around you. It can do a lot of good for you. So you don't want to starve it to death, but you want to be aware of it and you want to use it where it's applicable. I suppose it's how I guess you'd say it. That's the first thing I thought of. Anyway.

That's a good one. But yeah, I think that was my whole point. This darkness and you kind of helps propel you forward, kind of helps you get your task done. It kind of makes you focus. It kind of like cuts out the distractions around you. It can do a lot of good for you. So you don't want to starve it to death, but you want to be aware of it and you want to use it where it's applicable. I suppose it's how I guess you'd say it. That's the first thing I thought of. Anyway.

Interestingly enough, I was having a conversation just was it yesterday day before with another novelist. I don't talk to novelists often, but a friend of mine, Matthew Quick, and we were talking about this very idea, the Youngian idea of the shadow really, and we were talking about it in the context of that as particular type of men in the eras in which we've been raised, and by type I mean maybe more liberal, and recognizing the overreaches that men often have had, that there was a certain amount of trying to be the good boy, and that what that did for both of us was the thing that we couldn't face in ourselves was anger. It was the thing that got shoved way down. My father was a very angry man all the time, and so I spent my whole early adolescence through early adult years going I'm not gonna.

Interestingly enough, I was having a conversation just was it yesterday day before with another novelist. I don't talk to novelists often, but a friend of mine, Matthew Quick, and we were talking about this very idea, the Youngian idea of the shadow really, and we were talking about it in the context of that as particular type of men in the eras in which we've been raised, and by type I mean maybe more liberal, and recognizing the overreaches that men often have had, that there was a certain amount of trying to be the good boy, and that what that did for both of us was the thing that we couldn't face in ourselves was anger. It was the thing that got shoved way down. My father was a very angry man all the time, and so I spent my whole early adolescence through early adult years going I'm not gonna.

Be like that.

Be like that.

I'm not gonna be like that. You shove it down shove it down, right, And I think there's been a cost to me for that. And it's not that I'm even conscious of it anymore, because I think I've shoved it down for so long that it really is deep down there, but you see occasional flashes of it.

I'm not gonna be like that. You shove it down shove it down, right, And I think there's been a cost to me for that. And it's not that I'm even conscious of it anymore, because I think I've shoved it down for so long that it really is deep down there, but you see occasional flashes of it.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm the same way. You know. I love my dad and all that, but he was really short tempered, yep, and it made it really tense to be around him. It's like living next to a volcano because you never know when he's going to go explode and all that kind of stuff. And so, I mean, I was kind of raised to be angry, and I feel I mean like sometimes I'm an angry driver and sometimes you know, I get I remember every time I've been angry, though, it has never helped me, and so I learned really quickly not to be so angry. I'm trying to think, actually, is there ever a time where it's helped me? And I'm trying to think of one, and I really can't. I remember really well the times where it's just totally undermined what I was trying to do. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm the same way. You know. I love my dad and all that, but he was really short tempered, yep, and it made it really tense to be around him. It's like living next to a volcano because you never know when he's going to go explode and all that kind of stuff. And so, I mean, I was kind of raised to be angry, and I feel I mean like sometimes I'm an angry driver and sometimes you know, I get I remember every time I've been angry, though, it has never helped me, and so I learned really quickly not to be so angry. I'm trying to think, actually, is there ever a time where it's helped me? And I'm trying to think of one, and I really can't. I remember really well the times where it's just totally undermined what I was trying to do. Yeah.

Yeah, And I think this gets back to talking about the two wolves, which is making a distinction between an emotion and the behavior that that emotion causes or pushes you to. So to try not to be angry, like the emotion of anger, I think is probably destructive to not recognize like I'm angry, Like, shove that down, don't You can't feel that, you can't feel that. Right, However, it does seem perfectly reasonable to me and part of being a good person in the world of then not letting that emotion go to whatever it wants to do right right, And I think that's an interesting thing when we think about emotions. There's almost always an urge with them, like the emotion is causing us to want to do something, And that's often the place for me where I've tried to learn to separate. Don't repress the emotion, but don't indulge the action either. That's sort of the ideal.

Yeah, And I think this gets back to talking about the two wolves, which is making a distinction between an emotion and the behavior that that emotion causes or pushes you to. So to try not to be angry, like the emotion of anger, I think is probably destructive to not recognize like I'm angry, Like, shove that down, don't You can't feel that, you can't feel that. Right, However, it does seem perfectly reasonable to me and part of being a good person in the world of then not letting that emotion go to whatever it wants to do right right, And I think that's an interesting thing when we think about emotions. There's almost always an urge with them, like the emotion is causing us to want to do something, And that's often the place for me where I've tried to learn to separate. Don't repress the emotion, but don't indulge the action either. That's sort of the ideal.

Now, it's not the actual emotion of anger. I mean, you should be angry about certain things. You should be angry about whatever, slavery, the Holocaust, whatever it is. How you manifest that anger, though, is something you can control and you've got to do it, wisely, got to do it. So it's actually a productive thing, as opposed to something that undermines you.

Now, it's not the actual emotion of anger. I mean, you should be angry about certain things. You should be angry about whatever, slavery, the Holocaust, whatever it is. How you manifest that anger, though, is something you can control and you've got to do it, wisely, got to do it. So it's actually a productive thing, as opposed to something that undermines you.

Right, Yeah, it's the whole respond rather than react idea. Yeah, so let's turn to your book. I'm going to let you maybe tell us for a minute or two your description of what the book is about, just to give listeners a sense of the type of book we're discussing.

Right, Yeah, it's the whole respond rather than react idea. Yeah, so let's turn to your book. I'm going to let you maybe tell us for a minute or two your description of what the book is about, just to give listeners a sense of the type of book we're discussing.

Well, I mean, I can give you my elevator picture firsts people who don't know. So it starts off with Aubrey Torvell. She is a nine year old girl in eighteen eighties Paris, and she gets really sick at the dinner table one night, so all her parents will all freaked out. Her her family's fread out. They rush her to the doctor and the doctor tries to fix her, but gets the doctor and she's totally fine, and the doctor's like, I don't see anything wrong with her, And so she goes back home and she can't even get inside the house, she's so sick this time. And they take her back to the doctor and now she's even sicker, and the doctor has no idea what's wrong with her, and he's poking and prodden or trying to figure it out, and she gets so frustrated she just runs off into the streets of Paris at night, and she feels fine, and she realizes that it's this active exploration of being somewhere she's never been before that cures her. And so she spends the rest of her life wandering around and around the world, constantly on the run from this disease. And so it's an epic adventure. She's going to climb the Himalayas and cross the Sahara and raft down the Amazon, all these amazing things, and so that's the exciting part. It's a huge epic adventure. That's the fun part to read. But on the flip side, I mean, this is a girl who has lost her family, has nowhere to call home. She can't fall in love because they're all doomed. She just lives this life that seems to have no meaning. So how do you find a meaning in a life that feels like an eternal punishment? And that's the dilemma that she's facing here. It seems like it would be a great adventure, terrific excuse to get out of there. A lot of people admire her and are envious of her because they see this woman who's having this grand adventure, perfect excuse to do it. Can't hold it against her. But really, you know, it's not so easy if you're there. And I love to travel. Most people do love to travel. But I remember I was traveling. My wife is from China. We were traveling through China. I think we spent like three weeks there, maybe four, and we started in the south, moved our way north. By the time we got to Beijing, me and my kids were exhausted and we didn't you know, there was no forbidden city, no great wall. We just slept for three nights, you know. So, I mean that was only four weeks. Imagine doing this for a lifetime, so it can be brutal. My dad used to travel all the time for his work, you know, so he hates to travel. Now. My wife is kind of similar. She's a musician with the Cleveland Orchestra and they're very much traveling, touring orchestra. And you get tired of it. You just want to stay home with your kids and enjoy your life and stuff like that. But so there's a flip side. There's the adventure of travel, which is why we go on vacations. But I mean, most people don't take a vacation that's more than you know, a week, ten days something like that. Then they come back home, and if it goes on forever, it's a whole different story.

Well, I mean, I can give you my elevator picture firsts people who don't know. So it starts off with Aubrey Torvell. She is a nine year old girl in eighteen eighties Paris, and she gets really sick at the dinner table one night, so all her parents will all freaked out. Her her family's fread out. They rush her to the doctor and the doctor tries to fix her, but gets the doctor and she's totally fine, and the doctor's like, I don't see anything wrong with her, And so she goes back home and she can't even get inside the house, she's so sick this time. And they take her back to the doctor and now she's even sicker, and the doctor has no idea what's wrong with her, and he's poking and prodden or trying to figure it out, and she gets so frustrated she just runs off into the streets of Paris at night, and she feels fine, and she realizes that it's this active exploration of being somewhere she's never been before that cures her. And so she spends the rest of her life wandering around and around the world, constantly on the run from this disease. And so it's an epic adventure. She's going to climb the Himalayas and cross the Sahara and raft down the Amazon, all these amazing things, and so that's the exciting part. It's a huge epic adventure. That's the fun part to read. But on the flip side, I mean, this is a girl who has lost her family, has nowhere to call home. She can't fall in love because they're all doomed. She just lives this life that seems to have no meaning. So how do you find a meaning in a life that feels like an eternal punishment? And that's the dilemma that she's facing here. It seems like it would be a great adventure, terrific excuse to get out of there. A lot of people admire her and are envious of her because they see this woman who's having this grand adventure, perfect excuse to do it. Can't hold it against her. But really, you know, it's not so easy if you're there. And I love to travel. Most people do love to travel. But I remember I was traveling. My wife is from China. We were traveling through China. I think we spent like three weeks there, maybe four, and we started in the south, moved our way north. By the time we got to Beijing, me and my kids were exhausted and we didn't you know, there was no forbidden city, no great wall. We just slept for three nights, you know. So, I mean that was only four weeks. Imagine doing this for a lifetime, so it can be brutal. My dad used to travel all the time for his work, you know, so he hates to travel. Now. My wife is kind of similar. She's a musician with the Cleveland Orchestra and they're very much traveling, touring orchestra. And you get tired of it. You just want to stay home with your kids and enjoy your life and stuff like that. But so there's a flip side. There's the adventure of travel, which is why we go on vacations. But I mean, most people don't take a vacation that's more than you know, a week, ten days something like that. Then they come back home, and if it goes on forever, it's a whole different story.

Yeah, it's ironic that we're having this conversation because in about ten days I'm about to embark on a three month trip, oh my god, to Europe. Now, it's not a vacation.

Yeah, it's ironic that we're having this conversation because in about ten days I'm about to embark on a three month trip, oh my god, to Europe. Now, it's not a vacation.

I didn't mean to spoy shows.

I didn't mean to spoy shows.

It's not a vacate. I mean parts of it will be vacation, but I will be working well, and there I'm working on a book myself, so I'll be writing, I'll be doing interviews. So it's not a vacation, but it is three months of us moving our way, you know, covering a fair amount of ground over that time. And as we were planning the trip, I had sort of been reading your book a little bit, not in preparation for the trip, but just they sort of align, but certainly thinking about that, like how long do we want to stay in one place versus how many different places do we want to see? And what's the pace that you're on right Because to your point, like when you're always moving, that gets to be exhausting.

It's not a vacate. I mean parts of it will be vacation, but I will be working well, and there I'm working on a book myself, so I'll be writing, I'll be doing interviews. So it's not a vacation, but it is three months of us moving our way, you know, covering a fair amount of ground over that time. And as we were planning the trip, I had sort of been reading your book a little bit, not in preparation for the trip, but just they sort of align, but certainly thinking about that, like how long do we want to stay in one place versus how many different places do we want to see? And what's the pace that you're on right Because to your point, like when you're always moving, that gets to be exhausting.

Yeah, I've planned some vacations where it's like, Okay, we'll spend one or two days there, one or two days there, and that's never the best way. Really, the best way to do it is pick a spot, stay for a while so at least you feel like you've gotten like the feel of the place and so on. And because otherwise it's hectic, it's constant moving. You never get a break, right, and you need a break just to enjoy the place. Really, I mean, it's not enough to just stop and see.

Yeah, I've planned some vacations where it's like, Okay, we'll spend one or two days there, one or two days there, and that's never the best way. Really, the best way to do it is pick a spot, stay for a while so at least you feel like you've gotten like the feel of the place and so on. And because otherwise it's hectic, it's constant moving. You never get a break, right, and you need a break just to enjoy the place. Really, I mean, it's not enough to just stop and see.

Yeah, we've interspersed a week here, a couple of weeks there, But then there's a couple of weeks where you know, we're seeing multiple places where there's a lot more movement. So I'm so fortunate that my work allows me to work from anywhere and get a chance to go do this. But it's ironic that we're talking about an epic journey when I feel like I'm going on. For me, what is an epic journey?

Yeah, we've interspersed a week here, a couple of weeks there, But then there's a couple of weeks where you know, we're seeing multiple places where there's a lot more movement. So I'm so fortunate that my work allows me to work from anywhere and get a chance to go do this. But it's ironic that we're talking about an epic journey when I feel like I'm going on. For me, what is an epic journey?

It is an epicture, right.

It is an epicture, right.

So you've referred to the book as an adventure story. You've also referred to it as a spiritual journey. That's a term that means all sorts of things to all sorts of people. When you use it. What are you referring to? What do you mean?

So you've referred to the book as an adventure story. You've also referred to it as a spiritual journey. That's a term that means all sorts of things to all sorts of people. When you use it. What are you referring to? What do you mean?

I think? I mean it actually pretty literary. So this has a backstory to it. So when I was a kid, tell you the whole story. It doesn't make me look good. But when I was like I don't even remember how old, I was, like seven, eight years old, maybe not even, And I remember getting to a big fight with my little brother. I had four brothers, I had one little one. And it was over something stupid too. It was like, what are we going to watch on TV? Or and I wanted to watch a Godzilla movie and he wanted to watch you know, knowing him, it was like sixty minutes or something, and I'm like, no, I want to watch Godzilla. And he got his way, and I went out in the backyard and I sulked, and I remember sitting under the tree in the backyard thinking, God, if you're out there, just reake total unabashed revenge on my little brother. And weeks went by and nothing happened, and I was like and because of that, I became a novowt atheist from like the age of like seven. I was like, you know, you'll really let me down. I'm not believing in you anymore. That's my revenge, you know, my petty revenge. As I got older and I stuck to this, you know, and my argument's got a lot more sophisticated than that. But as I got older, I started noticing that all the stories I was writing, not all of them, but a lot of the stories I was writing were about these characters who were either very atheistic or they didn't like God, but God loved them any And I was like, why am I writing these stories. I'm not that person, and then of course cursed me. Well, jeez, maybe I'm not nearly as atheistic as I thought I was, and maybe there's a lot more going So these are the types of characters I write now. And because of that, I started studying the religions. I started suying all of them. But the Old Testament had these great stories that I loved. A great one would be Jonah because Jonahs given this task is to go down and convert Nineveh, right, which is an insane thing for you know, this guy who's just minding his own business and God comes down says go to Nineveh and convert him, and he's like, I don't want to go to Nanova. I want to stay home. I was enjoying myself. I was perfectly happy before you came along. And he does everything he can to get out of that situation, and I'm thinking, well, you know, if you just do it, he says, your life's going to be a lot easier, But he refuses, and in retrospect, because we all know how the story ends, he would have just been smarter just going along and doing it as he was told. But God, who admired the guy who like butts head with God and says, no, not going to do it, Like you're gonna lose this battle. You have no chance of winning this one. But he fights it anyway, and there's something kind of admirable about that, even if he's wrong. And I know, like the bigger moral of the story is that it's trying to show that if you turn your head away when evils are happening in the world, you're not helping the world. So I get that. But at the same time, there's something really admirable about a guy who's fighting a completely futile war against something bigger, impossibly bigger than he'll ever be. He can out comprehend how big this thing he's up against. Is, and he fights it anyway, and I always thought that was admirable. And I think Aubrey Torvel is going through the exact same adventure because she's stuck with this disease. She's traveling around the world. She has no idea why she's been singled out for this. She's the only one in the world that has this thing and maybe the only one ever will and she doesn't know why, and it makes her miserable, where if she kind of embraced her fate, she would have been a lot happy here. But people come up to me all the time. I love that character of Aubrey Torrevell. She's a great character. It's because she's making this feudal fight. She's very feisty, she's she's very single minded, and there's something about that that people admire. I think, I think that's what it is. I'm off on a tangent there, but that was my idea, is that you know, she's up against this, it's not until she kind of learns to her look back on her life and say, you know what, that wasn't so bad and I saw things no one else gets to see, and there is something to that. She kind of comes around this idea kind of manifests to a story. I don't kind of say it outrightly, but there's a voice in her head, there's all kinds of other things happening going on, and what does that mean? And I don't spell it out, but in my mind I knew what it was, and I hope the readers get that. There is also a story about enlightenment. There's a lot of discussion between her and the Prince in the middle of the story, and they're talking about what it means to be enlightened and how do you know? And it's, you know, the ideas, it's kind of like waking up from a dream, from a dream life to your waking life, and enlightenment is when you're waking up in your waking life into something even higher than that. And you see her go through that process. By the end, you're there. So it's a story of enlightenment as well. And to me, that's all the way through the book, and that's where the spiritual element comes.

I think? I mean it actually pretty literary. So this has a backstory to it. So when I was a kid, tell you the whole story. It doesn't make me look good. But when I was like I don't even remember how old, I was, like seven, eight years old, maybe not even, And I remember getting to a big fight with my little brother. I had four brothers, I had one little one. And it was over something stupid too. It was like, what are we going to watch on TV? Or and I wanted to watch a Godzilla movie and he wanted to watch you know, knowing him, it was like sixty minutes or something, and I'm like, no, I want to watch Godzilla. And he got his way, and I went out in the backyard and I sulked, and I remember sitting under the tree in the backyard thinking, God, if you're out there, just reake total unabashed revenge on my little brother. And weeks went by and nothing happened, and I was like and because of that, I became a novowt atheist from like the age of like seven. I was like, you know, you'll really let me down. I'm not believing in you anymore. That's my revenge, you know, my petty revenge. As I got older and I stuck to this, you know, and my argument's got a lot more sophisticated than that. But as I got older, I started noticing that all the stories I was writing, not all of them, but a lot of the stories I was writing were about these characters who were either very atheistic or they didn't like God, but God loved them any And I was like, why am I writing these stories. I'm not that person, and then of course cursed me. Well, jeez, maybe I'm not nearly as atheistic as I thought I was, and maybe there's a lot more going So these are the types of characters I write now. And because of that, I started studying the religions. I started suying all of them. But the Old Testament had these great stories that I loved. A great one would be Jonah because Jonahs given this task is to go down and convert Nineveh, right, which is an insane thing for you know, this guy who's just minding his own business and God comes down says go to Nineveh and convert him, and he's like, I don't want to go to Nanova. I want to stay home. I was enjoying myself. I was perfectly happy before you came along. And he does everything he can to get out of that situation, and I'm thinking, well, you know, if you just do it, he says, your life's going to be a lot easier, But he refuses, and in retrospect, because we all know how the story ends, he would have just been smarter just going along and doing it as he was told. But God, who admired the guy who like butts head with God and says, no, not going to do it, Like you're gonna lose this battle. You have no chance of winning this one. But he fights it anyway, and there's something kind of admirable about that, even if he's wrong. And I know, like the bigger moral of the story is that it's trying to show that if you turn your head away when evils are happening in the world, you're not helping the world. So I get that. But at the same time, there's something really admirable about a guy who's fighting a completely futile war against something bigger, impossibly bigger than he'll ever be. He can out comprehend how big this thing he's up against. Is, and he fights it anyway, and I always thought that was admirable. And I think Aubrey Torvel is going through the exact same adventure because she's stuck with this disease. She's traveling around the world. She has no idea why she's been singled out for this. She's the only one in the world that has this thing and maybe the only one ever will and she doesn't know why, and it makes her miserable, where if she kind of embraced her fate, she would have been a lot happy here. But people come up to me all the time. I love that character of Aubrey Torrevell. She's a great character. It's because she's making this feudal fight. She's very feisty, she's she's very single minded, and there's something about that that people admire. I think, I think that's what it is. I'm off on a tangent there, but that was my idea, is that you know, she's up against this, it's not until she kind of learns to her look back on her life and say, you know what, that wasn't so bad and I saw things no one else gets to see, and there is something to that. She kind of comes around this idea kind of manifests to a story. I don't kind of say it outrightly, but there's a voice in her head, there's all kinds of other things happening going on, and what does that mean? And I don't spell it out, but in my mind I knew what it was, and I hope the readers get that. There is also a story about enlightenment. There's a lot of discussion between her and the Prince in the middle of the story, and they're talking about what it means to be enlightened and how do you know? And it's, you know, the ideas, it's kind of like waking up from a dream, from a dream life to your waking life, and enlightenment is when you're waking up in your waking life into something even higher than that. And you see her go through that process. By the end, you're there. So it's a story of enlightenment as well. And to me, that's all the way through the book, and that's where the spiritual element comes.

In, right, because it's not a book about God in a direct way, right, there's no divine being, there's no her taking on. But what you're saying is this person fighting their fate being sort of one of the core themes there, and I always think it's so interesting, and I think it's one of the fundamental dilemmas that we face, particularly in today's day and age, where choices are unlimited and every view of the world and every way to live is shown to you you can actually see it. All is this question of what do I accept about my life being the way that it is, and what do I change? Because that's the first question, like if you're going to fight your fate. On one hand, you look at that and go, well, it's admirable, and on the other hand you go, well, it's a completely losing battle. But why, it's obvious that if there's something we can't change, then accepting it is the reasonable course of action. And I think most people are wise enough to know that.

In, right, because it's not a book about God in a direct way, right, there's no divine being, there's no her taking on. But what you're saying is this person fighting their fate being sort of one of the core themes there, and I always think it's so interesting, and I think it's one of the fundamental dilemmas that we face, particularly in today's day and age, where choices are unlimited and every view of the world and every way to live is shown to you you can actually see it. All is this question of what do I accept about my life being the way that it is, and what do I change? Because that's the first question, like if you're going to fight your fate. On one hand, you look at that and go, well, it's admirable, and on the other hand you go, well, it's a completely losing battle. But why, it's obvious that if there's something we can't change, then accepting it is the reasonable course of action. And I think most people are wise enough to know that.

That's a very dallas take. You don't fight the universe.

That's a very dallas take. You don't fight the universe.

Yeah, but that even shows up in like if you look at like parents who have children who have disabilities, if there's just no chance of fixing it, in many ways, their life is easier because they don't have to try and figure out whether to fix it, how much time and energy to put into fixing it. Yeah, right, they just accept They get on with the business of like, all right, how do we build a life with this thing that we've been given that we can't do anything about. Andrew Solomon, who's a great writer, wrote The Noonday Demon, which is called the Atlas of Depression. He also wrote a book called Far from the Tree, and it's about children who are different than their parents. Maybe they're blonde, they're autistic, but they're different. And it was one of the main points I really took away from that book was this idea of these parents whose children there might be a way to make them better, and they are caught in this poll. Like part of them is going just all right, this is what we have. Let's deal with it. But then there's another part of them that's going.

Yeah, but that even shows up in like if you look at like parents who have children who have disabilities, if there's just no chance of fixing it, in many ways, their life is easier because they don't have to try and figure out whether to fix it, how much time and energy to put into fixing it. Yeah, right, they just accept They get on with the business of like, all right, how do we build a life with this thing that we've been given that we can't do anything about. Andrew Solomon, who's a great writer, wrote The Noonday Demon, which is called the Atlas of Depression. He also wrote a book called Far from the Tree, and it's about children who are different than their parents. Maybe they're blonde, they're autistic, but they're different. And it was one of the main points I really took away from that book was this idea of these parents whose children there might be a way to make them better, and they are caught in this poll. Like part of them is going just all right, this is what we have. Let's deal with it. But then there's another part of them that's going.

It could be different.

It could be different.

It could be different if you just did this, What if you tried this. So I think most of us in the modern world are closer to that ladder thing I was describing, which is we look at our lives and if we just knew there were things that couldn't change, Like, I know my height isn't going to change, right, I mean, I could do some crazy surgery that breaks all my bones and but all intents and purposes, I'm the height I am. And so you go about accepting that. I go, well, I'm not going to dunk a basketball. I just kind of move on.

It could be different if you just did this, What if you tried this. So I think most of us in the modern world are closer to that ladder thing I was describing, which is we look at our lives and if we just knew there were things that couldn't change, Like, I know my height isn't going to change, right, I mean, I could do some crazy surgery that breaks all my bones and but all intents and purposes, I'm the height I am. And so you go about accepting that. I go, well, I'm not going to dunk a basketball. I just kind of move on.

Right. If you're raising kids, you're dealing with this dilemma daily, right, because you want your kids to be as perfect as and ready for the world when it comes to them and all that. You want them to be perfect at everything, and there's certain things they're going to be good at and certain things they're not going to be good at. And it takes time to figure maybe not time, patience and understanding to realize this is what they're like. And the more you try to push them into being this ideal, the less of a credit they're going to be to you. If you want your kids to turn out, well, let them be them and they'll figure out their own way and they'll figure out their pluses and minuses. Yeah, it's a lot like that.

Right. If you're raising kids, you're dealing with this dilemma daily, right, because you want your kids to be as perfect as and ready for the world when it comes to them and all that. You want them to be perfect at everything, and there's certain things they're going to be good at and certain things they're not going to be good at. And it takes time to figure maybe not time, patience and understanding to realize this is what they're like. And the more you try to push them into being this ideal, the less of a credit they're going to be to you. If you want your kids to turn out, well, let them be them and they'll figure out their own way and they'll figure out their pluses and minuses. Yeah, it's a lot like that.

There's a line in the book where you're talking about Aubrey once believed it was possible to control the world, to make it bend to her personal sense of justice. What a child she was, how foolish she been, how haughty, And then it goes on to say, without a doubt, she knew she did not command the world, but was at the mercy of it. It's a lesson. Most people learn at some point in their lives that the world is a bigger and more powerful thing than you.

There's a line in the book where you're talking about Aubrey once believed it was possible to control the world, to make it bend to her personal sense of justice. What a child she was, how foolish she been, how haughty, And then it goes on to say, without a doubt, she knew she did not command the world, but was at the mercy of it. It's a lesson. Most people learn at some point in their lives that the world is a bigger and more powerful thing than you.

Yeah, that was a lesson I learned. It's a lesson I see a lot of people learn. You start off young, your idealist, and then you realize. I remember my dad telling me when I was a kid, you know what, you're young, You're full of energy, you're idealistic. This is the time to try to do the things you want to do, because when you're older, you're going to be crushed. Why why right? True? Right?

Yeah, that was a lesson I learned. It's a lesson I see a lot of people learn. You start off young, your idealist, and then you realize. I remember my dad telling me when I was a kid, you know what, you're young, You're full of energy, you're idealistic. This is the time to try to do the things you want to do, because when you're older, you're going to be crushed. Why why right? True? Right?

Yeah, I mean I think that is wise and generous. Right, instead of telling you not to be idealistic and not try that stuff, It's like, go, this is that time that's appropriate for this phase in your life of where you're at.

Yeah, I mean I think that is wise and generous. Right, instead of telling you not to be idealistic and not try that stuff, It's like, go, this is that time that's appropriate for this phase in your life of where you're at.

I remember thinking of me when I was a kid because I was very idealistic. I have lots of other friends who are like that. And eventually life gets to you, you know, because I had I'd already been planning to, you know, write books and make movies and do all this stuff. By the time, I was like twenty, and you know it didn't work out.

I remember thinking of me when I was a kid because I was very idealistic. I have lots of other friends who are like that. And eventually life gets to you, you know, because I had I'd already been planning to, you know, write books and make movies and do all this stuff. By the time, I was like twenty, and you know it didn't work out.

That way, And yet here you are. I don't know how old you are with enough, I ain't twenty, you're not twenty. You're not sixty.

That way, And yet here you are. I don't know how old you are with enough, I ain't twenty, you're not twenty. You're not sixty.

Either, No, no, but this is my next stop, though, it's.

Either, No, no, but this is my next stop, though, it's.

Your next stop. Really, yeah, so you're older fifty five?

Your next stop. Really, yeah, so you're older fifty five?

I don't know.

I don't know.

Actually on fifty four, you must think I.

Actually on fifty four, you must think I.

Might be fifty four. No, I don't. I forget these things, all right, all.

Might be fifty four. No, I don't. I forget these things, all right, all.

Right, genuinely yeah, I forget too. But my birth year was nineteen seventy, so it's always easy to figure out because I can just go, oh, well, what year is it, twenty twenty four? Add thirty to it. Okay, I'm there.

Right, genuinely yeah, I forget too. But my birth year was nineteen seventy, so it's always easy to figure out because I can just go, oh, well, what year is it, twenty twenty four? Add thirty to it. Okay, I'm there.

Oh crap, So then I'm no, no, I'm older than you. Then I even realize I really genuinely forgot.

Oh crap, So then I'm no, no, I'm older than you. Then I even realize I really genuinely forgot.

Well, you look very young that way, you look very young. But my point with that was not to compliment you on your age. My point was to say, you had this idealism of all these things you were going to do when you were young, and they didn't happen right, right, right, and yet here you are with a novel that has done I mean, I don't know how you gauge how well a book does, but I know it's been in windows of Barnes and Noble. That's good enough, right, I mean that's something so tie together this early disillusionment with creating art and lack of success with where you are today. How did that happen? Did you stay with it to get to the point where you were able to do it? How did you keep creating art in that period?

Well, you look very young that way, you look very young. But my point with that was not to compliment you on your age. My point was to say, you had this idealism of all these things you were going to do when you were young, and they didn't happen right, right, right, and yet here you are with a novel that has done I mean, I don't know how you gauge how well a book does, but I know it's been in windows of Barnes and Noble. That's good enough, right, I mean that's something so tie together this early disillusionment with creating art and lack of success with where you are today. How did that happen? Did you stay with it to get to the point where you were able to do it? How did you keep creating art in that period?

Well? So, I mean I've been doing it since I was little. I mean I started writing stories and I was in like third grade, and maybe even before that. I remember me and my friends in third grade would get together and we would all write stories together, and we had all these imaginary characters and stuff like that. And mine was a blue raccoon. I think my friend had these family of pickles, went around talking and stuff like that.

Well? So, I mean I've been doing it since I was little. I mean I started writing stories and I was in like third grade, and maybe even before that. I remember me and my friends in third grade would get together and we would all write stories together, and we had all these imaginary characters and stuff like that. And mine was a blue raccoon. I think my friend had these family of pickles, went around talking and stuff like that.

Raccoons and the pickles get together every they.

Raccoons and the pickles get together every they.

Did, so we have all these joint stories. It was like Marvel's universe. And they would all like intersect and stuff like that. They would rob banks and stuff like that together. They're always getting into these Well, it doesn't matter. Point is I kept writing these stories after they had stopped, and I couldn't stop. So I was totally writing for pleasure. But I think around sixth grade I was like, Okay, this is what I want to do. And so I just started writing stories and more and more, and see I went to school for it. Afterwards. I would submit screenplays to competitions and they did really well, and it would just always be enough to keep me going, like enough, like encouragement. But it never has. So I was optioned, like you know, four times, I think, and all you would, but none of them ever got produced, and you know, it was just crushing after a while. Then they had kids, and you take a break. But even when I had kids, I was like, oh my god, I have to find time to write. You get the shakes when you don't write. It's I mean, it's like a physical reaction to not writing. And I've always had that, and so I mean I just constantly wrote. I probably have like fifty screenplays and five or six novels already, just because just yesterday, I'm working on a novel that I know is unpublishable. It'll never be published. It's insane. It's a total vanity project, is what they call it. But in between books, I'll take off a month, and I'll work on this thing just for fun. And all that time I wasn't doing it because I thought it would have like this tremendous, incredible payoff or anything. I'm doing it because I can't stop. I don't know any other way to live. Right.

Did, so we have all these joint stories. It was like Marvel's universe. And they would all like intersect and stuff like that. They would rob banks and stuff like that together. They're always getting into these Well, it doesn't matter. Point is I kept writing these stories after they had stopped, and I couldn't stop. So I was totally writing for pleasure. But I think around sixth grade I was like, Okay, this is what I want to do. And so I just started writing stories and more and more, and see I went to school for it. Afterwards. I would submit screenplays to competitions and they did really well, and it would just always be enough to keep me going, like enough, like encouragement. But it never has. So I was optioned, like you know, four times, I think, and all you would, but none of them ever got produced, and you know, it was just crushing after a while. Then they had kids, and you take a break. But even when I had kids, I was like, oh my god, I have to find time to write. You get the shakes when you don't write. It's I mean, it's like a physical reaction to not writing. And I've always had that, and so I mean I just constantly wrote. I probably have like fifty screenplays and five or six novels already, just because just yesterday, I'm working on a novel that I know is unpublishable. It'll never be published. It's insane. It's a total vanity project, is what they call it. But in between books, I'll take off a month, and I'll work on this thing just for fun. And all that time I wasn't doing it because I thought it would have like this tremendous, incredible payoff or anything. I'm doing it because I can't stop. I don't know any other way to live. Right.

It's just like am I well in the sense of she can't stop moving, or she gets worse than the show. You just described your inability to stop writing. I guess without getting some sort of I never made that analogience this is going in my next story. Well, there's another Aubrey connection that I picked up, which I don't know if you may or may not know, but one of the things that appears to potentially be an inciting incident for her is when she's young, she fails to take a certain act.

It's just like am I well in the sense of she can't stop moving, or she gets worse than the show. You just described your inability to stop writing. I guess without getting some sort of I never made that analogience this is going in my next story. Well, there's another Aubrey connection that I picked up, which I don't know if you may or may not know, but one of the things that appears to potentially be an inciting incident for her is when she's young, she fails to take a certain act.

Towards God, right, a selfless act. Right.

Towards God, right, a selfless act. Right.

It was sort of a battle with God. And you describe being a young child having a revenge fantasy and swearing off God because he didn't take out your little brother. That's another simm I don't know if you've connected that dot either to an extent.

It was sort of a battle with God. And you describe being a young child having a revenge fantasy and swearing off God because he didn't take out your little brother. That's another simm I don't know if you've connected that dot either to an extent.

Okay, okay, maybe not quite so consciously, but I mean that one I totally feel yeah, yeah, like I can get that one right away. So it's also a setup like you get from you know, the Garden of Eden's right, don't eat that apple?

Okay, okay, maybe not quite so consciously, but I mean that one I totally feel yeah, yeah, like I can get that one right away. So it's also a setup like you get from you know, the Garden of Eden's right, don't eat that apple?

Yeah right, of course they're gonna ghet it.

Yeah right, of course they're gonna ghet it.

Yeah, yeah, so yeah, throw out the puzzle of ball. Of course she's not going to throw it out at that point. Oh no, I got to see what's inside it, so she doesn't. Yeah, and that's what sets her off in her journey, and it's like she was set up.

Yeah, yeah, so yeah, throw out the puzzle of ball. Of course she's not going to throw it out at that point. Oh no, I got to see what's inside it, so she doesn't. Yeah, and that's what sets her off in her journey, and it's like she was set up.

So listener, consider this. You're halfway through the episode. Integration reminder. Remember knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. It can be transformative to take a minute to synthesize information rather than just ingesting it in a detached way. So let's collectively take a moment to pause and reflect. What's your one big insight so far and how can you put it into practice in your life? Seriously, just take a second, pause the audio and reflect. It can be so powerful. Have these reminders to stop and be present, can't it. If you want to keep this momentum going that you built with this little exercise, I'd encourage you to get on our good Wolf reminders SMS list, I'll shoot you two texts a week with insightful little prompts and wisdom from podcast guests. They are a nice little nudge to stop and be present in your life, and they're a helpful way to not get lost in the busyness and forget what is important. You can join at oneufeed dot net slash sms and if you don't like them, you can get off a list really easily. So far, there are over one and seventy two others from the one you feed community on the list, and we'd love to welcome you as well, So head on over to oneufeed dot net slash sms and let's feed our good wolves together. So there's another line in the book that says the best way to survive some things, thought Aubrey, was not to understand them. Do you believe that?

So listener, consider this. You're halfway through the episode. Integration reminder. Remember knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. It can be transformative to take a minute to synthesize information rather than just ingesting it in a detached way. So let's collectively take a moment to pause and reflect. What's your one big insight so far and how can you put it into practice in your life? Seriously, just take a second, pause the audio and reflect. It can be so powerful. Have these reminders to stop and be present, can't it. If you want to keep this momentum going that you built with this little exercise, I'd encourage you to get on our good Wolf reminders SMS list, I'll shoot you two texts a week with insightful little prompts and wisdom from podcast guests. They are a nice little nudge to stop and be present in your life, and they're a helpful way to not get lost in the busyness and forget what is important. You can join at oneufeed dot net slash sms and if you don't like them, you can get off a list really easily. So far, there are over one and seventy two others from the one you feed community on the list, and we'd love to welcome you as well, So head on over to oneufeed dot net slash sms and let's feed our good wolves together. So there's another line in the book that says the best way to survive some things, thought Aubrey, was not to understand them. Do you believe that?

So I've read this great book called Deep Survival. Lawrence I think wrote it because I love to write survival stories. So he was writing all about how people survive what they survive. There are some situations people just can't survive, but in certain situations it is a kind of a personality that gets you through it. And I remember so many aspects of it. One was to just act and the other one was people who tend to survive tend to admire their situation. Like there was a story about a plane crash and the plane broke open in midair and this girl, strapped to her seat was literally tumbling through the air into the jungle, and you know, because there was a jungle, she landed in the trees and actually survived this fall from an airplane. A bunch of them did. An airplane was low, I guess, but she describes it as, Oh, look at these trees, they look like broccoli. She remembers this instant and when she's on the ground, she's like, this is a beautiful jungle, and she's admiring this like everyone else's. A lot of other people are looking at this like this is their grave. You know this, this is the worst thing that can happen to me. This is miserable. She's actually admiring the place she's in. She's the only one that survived because everyone just froze sat still, and she's like, you know what, I'm just going to follow this river. I'm going to walk because if I stay here, they're not going to find us. With all that, and so she just did something. Whereas everyone else said no, no, wait, they'll find us here, she's like, I don't know. She took off. No one else will go with her, and she is the only one to live. She eventually was picked up. And there's a I don't remember where I heard this a soldier saying. It was a combat soldier, and he says, look, if you're ever lost in the woods, just walk, because it'll take you somewhere. I mean, you can stand there and freeze out of fear, and you can just sit there and not do anything, or you can take some steps and maybe it won't help, maybe it will, but at least you'll know more than you did before because you're starting to see the place you're at, and maybe you'll come across something, maybe get a little lucky, Maybe you'll find some food, maybe you'll find a river you can follow, so on and so forth. But if you just stay in one place, you're not improving your situation. So when Aubrey is saying that, I mean, Aubrey is not necessarily a great intellect. She's an action oriented person. For her, you got to keep moving first of all. She has to keep moving anyway, if she thinks about her plight too much, it's going to make her miserable, and that's what one of her flaws is, right, So, I mean, I hate to advocate mindlessness because I don't think it's quite there. But sometimes if you just do something, it's the best antidote there is. And so instead of just sitting there feeling sorry for yourself, just get out there and walk and maybe things. Maybe they won't prove, maybe they will, and it's certainly it's going to improve a lot more than just sitting there, you know, doing nothing.

So I've read this great book called Deep Survival. Lawrence I think wrote it because I love to write survival stories. So he was writing all about how people survive what they survive. There are some situations people just can't survive, but in certain situations it is a kind of a personality that gets you through it. And I remember so many aspects of it. One was to just act and the other one was people who tend to survive tend to admire their situation. Like there was a story about a plane crash and the plane broke open in midair and this girl, strapped to her seat was literally tumbling through the air into the jungle, and you know, because there was a jungle, she landed in the trees and actually survived this fall from an airplane. A bunch of them did. An airplane was low, I guess, but she describes it as, Oh, look at these trees, they look like broccoli. She remembers this instant and when she's on the ground, she's like, this is a beautiful jungle, and she's admiring this like everyone else's. A lot of other people are looking at this like this is their grave. You know this, this is the worst thing that can happen to me. This is miserable. She's actually admiring the place she's in. She's the only one that survived because everyone just froze sat still, and she's like, you know what, I'm just going to follow this river. I'm going to walk because if I stay here, they're not going to find us. With all that, and so she just did something. Whereas everyone else said no, no, wait, they'll find us here, she's like, I don't know. She took off. No one else will go with her, and she is the only one to live. She eventually was picked up. And there's a I don't remember where I heard this a soldier saying. It was a combat soldier, and he says, look, if you're ever lost in the woods, just walk, because it'll take you somewhere. I mean, you can stand there and freeze out of fear, and you can just sit there and not do anything, or you can take some steps and maybe it won't help, maybe it will, but at least you'll know more than you did before because you're starting to see the place you're at, and maybe you'll come across something, maybe get a little lucky, Maybe you'll find some food, maybe you'll find a river you can follow, so on and so forth. But if you just stay in one place, you're not improving your situation. So when Aubrey is saying that, I mean, Aubrey is not necessarily a great intellect. She's an action oriented person. For her, you got to keep moving first of all. She has to keep moving anyway, if she thinks about her plight too much, it's going to make her miserable, and that's what one of her flaws is, right, So, I mean, I hate to advocate mindlessness because I don't think it's quite there. But sometimes if you just do something, it's the best antidote there is. And so instead of just sitting there feeling sorry for yourself, just get out there and walk and maybe things. Maybe they won't prove, maybe they will, and it's certainly it's going to improve a lot more than just sitting there, you know, doing nothing.

Yep, I feel obligated to tell listeners we do not offer survival advice on this show.

Yep, I feel obligated to tell listeners we do not offer survival advice on this show.

So the other amazing thing about.

So the other amazing thing about.

That book, so just if you're in the woods, the show has no opinion on whether you should stay put or walk.

That book, so just if you're in the woods, the show has no opinion on whether you should stay put or walk.

But the other thing was, like he actually broke it down by demographics, kids under the age of six we're more likely to survive than kids between the age of seventeen and like thirteen, because the kids between seventeen and thirteen, you know, teenagers, These young teenagers who don't know how to control their emotions yet tend to get really panicky or they tend to get really depressed. Their emotions get ahead of them and take them over, and they tend to curl up and die, whereas under six they're like, oh, I'll just look for food, and they go off and just do the things they have to do. They're very practical. They don't get hung up on emotions at all because they just don't have that life experience and it doesn't mean much to them yet they just do what they have to do. That's why you hear like little kids being raised by wolves and monkeys and things like that, because they just let it happen. Whereas you know, these older group of kids, you know, they'll be freaked out, they'll have like you know, they'll self doubt. All these kind of things just undermine them. And then as you get older, the chances get better. Then you get to a certain age and your chances drop off and it's all in the mind, and it's because of where your mind is at that age. It was really fascinating, though, Yeah, that's wild.

But the other thing was, like he actually broke it down by demographics, kids under the age of six we're more likely to survive than kids between the age of seventeen and like thirteen, because the kids between seventeen and thirteen, you know, teenagers, These young teenagers who don't know how to control their emotions yet tend to get really panicky or they tend to get really depressed. Their emotions get ahead of them and take them over, and they tend to curl up and die, whereas under six they're like, oh, I'll just look for food, and they go off and just do the things they have to do. They're very practical. They don't get hung up on emotions at all because they just don't have that life experience and it doesn't mean much to them yet they just do what they have to do. That's why you hear like little kids being raised by wolves and monkeys and things like that, because they just let it happen. Whereas you know, these older group of kids, you know, they'll be freaked out, they'll have like you know, they'll self doubt. All these kind of things just undermine them. And then as you get older, the chances get better. Then you get to a certain age and your chances drop off and it's all in the mind, and it's because of where your mind is at that age. It was really fascinating, though, Yeah, that's wild.

That is adventure novels or survival novels. I may not get this right. The author, Lauren Groff is Laura. She has a new book. Her latest book is sort of a survival story or a woman who wanders off from I'm going to say a medieval village where it's just a bad place to be. And so anyway, she's an amazing writer. Her prose is incredible, and so you might really enjoy that. Back to this idea of Aubrey's life as being both a blessing and the curse in that she has to keep moving, and we talked about how sometimes that may not be ideal. You make an analogy in the book between imprisonment and exile. Right, somebody's making the point that like punishment is to be imprisoned, right, you can't move, and she makes the point, well, people are often exiled also another type of punishment. And as I was thinking about this idea, it seems that either of those things where really any condition in the extreme becomes really difficult, right, Like if you're imprisoned in a prison cell, that's awful, horrible, right, you can't go anywhere, you can't I mean like nothing, And to be forced to move to a new place you've never been every three days, as Aubrey is, is also a form of torture in its own way. So it seems like there's this and I don't know if you think about this, but there's a case being made for sort of a middle way here. That the middle way is ideal.

That is adventure novels or survival novels. I may not get this right. The author, Lauren Groff is Laura. She has a new book. Her latest book is sort of a survival story or a woman who wanders off from I'm going to say a medieval village where it's just a bad place to be. And so anyway, she's an amazing writer. Her prose is incredible, and so you might really enjoy that. Back to this idea of Aubrey's life as being both a blessing and the curse in that she has to keep moving, and we talked about how sometimes that may not be ideal. You make an analogy in the book between imprisonment and exile. Right, somebody's making the point that like punishment is to be imprisoned, right, you can't move, and she makes the point, well, people are often exiled also another type of punishment. And as I was thinking about this idea, it seems that either of those things where really any condition in the extreme becomes really difficult, right, Like if you're imprisoned in a prison cell, that's awful, horrible, right, you can't go anywhere, you can't I mean like nothing, And to be forced to move to a new place you've never been every three days, as Aubrey is, is also a form of torture in its own way. So it seems like there's this and I don't know if you think about this, but there's a case being made for sort of a middle way here. That the middle way is ideal.

Yeah. I love Daoism and that's the philosophy there.

Yeah. I love Daoism and that's the philosophy there.

Yep, for sure.

Yep, for sure.

But I have to admit, and this isn't true for everybody, But I know for me, I would prefer exile because at least you're out there and you're moving, agreed, and then there. But there are people I know and I've met them who would prefer to be in the prison because they can relax and they can just you know, people are taking care of them, feeding them, and they just have to sit there.

But I have to admit, and this isn't true for everybody, But I know for me, I would prefer exile because at least you're out there and you're moving, agreed, and then there. But there are people I know and I've met them who would prefer to be in the prison because they can relax and they can just you know, people are taking care of them, feeding them, and they just have to sit there.

Yeah, to make it a little bit more realistic, because I think almost any buddy would choose exile over prison cell because that's so extreme.

Yeah, to make it a little bit more realistic, because I think almost any buddy would choose exile over prison cell because that's so extreme.

But we like a guy who didn't.

But we like a guy who didn't.

Yeah, okay, well, and it's interesting some people who are out of prison or I have a friend who was in prison. He just got out in the last six months. He was in prison for twenty years.

Yeah, okay, well, and it's interesting some people who are out of prison or I have a friend who was in prison. He just got out in the last six months. He was in prison for twenty years.

Yeah, that's a tough adjustment.

Yeah, that's a tough adjustment.

Yeah, I mean, all of a sudden, your life is completely structured in to a degree you would never want your life to be structured. And then suddenly there is nothing as far as structure goes. Anyway, I was sort of making the middle way point the right a little bit. For most of us, somewhere in between those two things is going to be the ideal.

Yeah, I mean, all of a sudden, your life is completely structured in to a degree you would never want your life to be structured. And then suddenly there is nothing as far as structure goes. Anyway, I was sort of making the middle way point the right a little bit. For most of us, somewhere in between those two things is going to be the ideal.

Yeah, well, that's how most of us live our lives, right, because we're not sitting at home all day doing nothing. We're out and about, we go on vacations once in a while, and so and so on and so forth, and most of us don't cloister ourselves inside a room of the rest of our lives, and most of us aren't wandering the world forever and ever. Yeah. Either, there are people now you know, you're hearing about these what digital nomads, and they do it for like a couple of years, and then you go on YouTube and you read, well what are they up to it? And now I was like, I broke down. I couldn't do it anymore. Yeah.

Yeah, well, that's how most of us live our lives, right, because we're not sitting at home all day doing nothing. We're out and about, we go on vacations once in a while, and so and so on and so forth, and most of us don't cloister ourselves inside a room of the rest of our lives, and most of us aren't wandering the world forever and ever. Yeah. Either, there are people now you know, you're hearing about these what digital nomads, and they do it for like a couple of years, and then you go on YouTube and you read, well what are they up to it? And now I was like, I broke down. I couldn't do it anymore. Yeah.

Yeah, you know, I've known a couple of people who have tried the digital nomad lifestyle, and it a seems to like you're saying to be great for a while, until all of a sudden it's not.

Yeah, you know, I've known a couple of people who have tried the digital nomad lifestyle, and it a seems to like you're saying to be great for a while, until all of a sudden it's not.

One guy said something really interesting to me, which because he was going around the world seeing all these beautiful things, they stopped becoming beautiful to him. Yeah, and he missed that. He missed the idea of going somewhere and being stunned by what the landscape or the culture, whatever it is he was after. He missed being stunned and not bowled over by that because it was becoming routine for him. Yep, and that's something that it didn't actually occur. Yeah.

One guy said something really interesting to me, which because he was going around the world seeing all these beautiful things, they stopped becoming beautiful to him. Yeah, and he missed that. He missed the idea of going somewhere and being stunned by what the landscape or the culture, whatever it is he was after. He missed being stunned and not bowled over by that because it was becoming routine for him. Yep, and that's something that it didn't actually occur. Yeah.

We habituate to almost anything, right, We habituate to almost anything.

We habituate to almost anything, right, We habituate to almost anything.

Imagine. Yeah, imagine habituating to like natural beauty. I can't even imagine that, but I guess it would happen. Yeah.

Imagine. Yeah, imagine habituating to like natural beauty. I can't even imagine that, but I guess it would happen. Yeah.

Well, I think that raises a question that I think is at the heart of a lot of spiritual journeys or spiritual work, which is, how do you continue to see the extraordinary in what has become very ordinary? How do you continue to enliven your life even though it's not changing much.