Anytime we get triggered or angered, that is a sign or a place that is covering a wound, and so we need to sort of bring that to the light and process our feelings to resolution so that we no longer carry them.

Anytime we get triggered or angered, that is a sign or a place that is covering a wound, and so we need to sort of bring that to the light and process our feelings to resolution so that we no longer carry them.

Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves from moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves from moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

If you've listened for a while, you know I've talked about my recovery, how a twelve step program saved my life, but also how I don't go anymore. And every time I hear so you're anti twelve step, I'm not but when it comes to recovery, nuance tends to get lost. And that's why I was excited to talk with Arlene Allen, author of The Twelve Step Guide for Skeptics. She breaks down the misconceptions that keep people from giving these programs a real shot, and how to make them work even if parts of them don't resonate for you. We dig into the language of twelve step programs, terms like character defects and how they can be reframed. We explore navigating the spiritual aspects even if you don't believe in a traditional higher power. So if you've ever wrestled with recovery, been interested in twelve steps, or wondered if a twelve step program could work for you, this episode is worth your time. I'm Eric Zimmer, and it's time to feed our good wolf. Yes, Hi Arlena, welcome to the show.

If you've listened for a while, you know I've talked about my recovery, how a twelve step program saved my life, but also how I don't go anymore. And every time I hear so you're anti twelve step, I'm not but when it comes to recovery, nuance tends to get lost. And that's why I was excited to talk with Arlene Allen, author of The Twelve Step Guide for Skeptics. She breaks down the misconceptions that keep people from giving these programs a real shot, and how to make them work even if parts of them don't resonate for you. We dig into the language of twelve step programs, terms like character defects and how they can be reframed. We explore navigating the spiritual aspects even if you don't believe in a traditional higher power. So if you've ever wrestled with recovery, been interested in twelve steps, or wondered if a twelve step program could work for you, this episode is worth your time. I'm Eric Zimmer, and it's time to feed our good wolf. Yes, Hi Arlena, welcome to the show.

Hi, thanks for having me.

Hi, thanks for having me.

I'm really excited to have you on. Your book is called The Twelve Step Guide for Skeptics, clearing up common misconceptions of a path to sobriety and often on the show, I mentioned that I was in a twelve step program. I mentioned that I have some concerns about twelve step programs. I mentioned that I don't go to meetings anymore, and the problem is there's a lot, a lot of nuance that's missed in that, and so from my side, I'm excited to have a chance to really explore all that nuance so that people who are listening a understand kind of my perspective on that. But also more importantly, because this is your interview, they understand the perspective that you're providing. I think you did a great job because this idea that you say at some point, I wish that people, if they had some boundaries, some context, a shift in perspective, they could move past some of these common barriers and get a lot out of twelve step programs. And I think that's really important because despite there being lots of other things on offer these days, there is nothing that has the reach and is free that twelve step programs do. It's amazing that they exist totally. And there are common barriers and misperceptions that I think keep a lot of people out or drive people out after a while, and I think your book does a really nice job of dealing with those. So yeah, I think you really accomplished your mission that.

I'm really excited to have you on. Your book is called The Twelve Step Guide for Skeptics, clearing up common misconceptions of a path to sobriety and often on the show, I mentioned that I was in a twelve step program. I mentioned that I have some concerns about twelve step programs. I mentioned that I don't go to meetings anymore, and the problem is there's a lot, a lot of nuance that's missed in that, and so from my side, I'm excited to have a chance to really explore all that nuance so that people who are listening a understand kind of my perspective on that. But also more importantly, because this is your interview, they understand the perspective that you're providing. I think you did a great job because this idea that you say at some point, I wish that people, if they had some boundaries, some context, a shift in perspective, they could move past some of these common barriers and get a lot out of twelve step programs. And I think that's really important because despite there being lots of other things on offer these days, there is nothing that has the reach and is free that twelve step programs do. It's amazing that they exist totally. And there are common barriers and misperceptions that I think keep a lot of people out or drive people out after a while, and I think your book does a really nice job of dealing with those. So yeah, I think you really accomplished your mission that.

Means a lot to me knowing who you are and all of your knowledge, So thank you for saying that. Yeah, that was a mission.

Means a lot to me knowing who you are and all of your knowledge, So thank you for saying that. Yeah, that was a mission.

So we're going to get to that book in a second, but we will start like we always do, with the Parable. And in the Parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

So we're going to get to that book in a second, but we will start like we always do, with the Parable. And in the Parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Well that parable and I have thought about this a lot, and you're gonna ask a question, and not to be reductionist about it. What is so powerful about it is sort of this idea that energy flows where attention goes, like whatever we focus on expands, right, But if we sort of twist it a little bit and say that you know, it's not which one you feed, but what do you feed it? Right, Like, I know you're very aware of like internal family systems. And I would say over the last four or five years, since I learned about internal family systems, which is the way to relate to all the parts inside of you, including what we would call like the bad parts, is that all of our parts have a positive intention, and sometimes they do it in destructive ways. And I had a mentor early on who asked me, you know, we would talk a lot about self compassion, and she would ask me, can you love your unlovable part? And I thought it was an impossible question because oftentimes the answer is no. I had that experience, but I wanted to cut parts of me out. Yeah, your person I wanted to kill, but that's not really possible, right, And there's this old saying you can't hate yourself well. And so when she posts that question to me, can you love your unlovable parts? And it was no. But then I was introduced to internal family systems. I began to understand that what I would call like the bad role for the bad parts, the greed, the hatred, all that stuff, there was a positive intention for those roles in my life, and as I fed them love and compassion and understanding and appreciation, recognizing that I was behaving in those ways out of survival skills, that sort of lowered the tension in my body. It helped me to release fear and come more from a place of love, which is what I think we would commonly call the good wolf. And so the approach to getting rid of the bad wolf is to actually love it.

Well that parable and I have thought about this a lot, and you're gonna ask a question, and not to be reductionist about it. What is so powerful about it is sort of this idea that energy flows where attention goes, like whatever we focus on expands, right, But if we sort of twist it a little bit and say that you know, it's not which one you feed, but what do you feed it? Right, Like, I know you're very aware of like internal family systems. And I would say over the last four or five years, since I learned about internal family systems, which is the way to relate to all the parts inside of you, including what we would call like the bad parts, is that all of our parts have a positive intention, and sometimes they do it in destructive ways. And I had a mentor early on who asked me, you know, we would talk a lot about self compassion, and she would ask me, can you love your unlovable part? And I thought it was an impossible question because oftentimes the answer is no. I had that experience, but I wanted to cut parts of me out. Yeah, your person I wanted to kill, but that's not really possible, right, And there's this old saying you can't hate yourself well. And so when she posts that question to me, can you love your unlovable parts? And it was no. But then I was introduced to internal family systems. I began to understand that what I would call like the bad role for the bad parts, the greed, the hatred, all that stuff, there was a positive intention for those roles in my life, and as I fed them love and compassion and understanding and appreciation, recognizing that I was behaving in those ways out of survival skills, that sort of lowered the tension in my body. It helped me to release fear and come more from a place of love, which is what I think we would commonly call the good wolf. And so the approach to getting rid of the bad wolf is to actually love it.

Yeah, that leads us right into I think something we can talk about with twelve step programs, because there's a lot of nuance in this and twelve step programs. One of the things that you say right out of the gate, and you say again and again and again. I just want to get it out there for everything else it's about to follow, is that people are not the program. Thank you, right, People are not the program. And so as I talk about things that challenge me in twelve step meetings, you're going to hear me talk about people from time to time, right, And so I think it's really important that everybody understand that, like, people are not the program. You can need different meetings and get different experiences. You can just ignore or the one person that says stuff that you don't like, Like, there's lots of ways to work with that.

Yeah, that leads us right into I think something we can talk about with twelve step programs, because there's a lot of nuance in this and twelve step programs. One of the things that you say right out of the gate, and you say again and again and again. I just want to get it out there for everything else it's about to follow, is that people are not the program. Thank you, right, People are not the program. And so as I talk about things that challenge me in twelve step meetings, you're going to hear me talk about people from time to time, right, And so I think it's really important that everybody understand that, like, people are not the program. You can need different meetings and get different experiences. You can just ignore or the one person that says stuff that you don't like, Like, there's lots of ways to work with that.

All.

All.

Right, Now back to where we were, which is that you're talking about loving all these parts of ourselves and the twelve step literature as we go into it. But the twelve step literature is largely based originally on the original text, which was AA's Big book Alcohol tends to be fairly strong in its language about selfishness is our problem. Yeah, we have these character defects that we have to get rid of. Right, there's not a whole lot there necessarily at first glance about loving these parts of us that are problematic. I often would hear people say I'm still a liar, cheating, a thief. And that's not said in a like I'm proud of it way. It's there's some part of me that's bad, and I need to use this program to get rid of it. So let's just start talking there. As a thing that I do know that rubs some people wrong about twelve step language is that idea they don't want to talk about character defects. They may feel terrible about themselves already, So let's help reframe that or give that some context.

Right, Now back to where we were, which is that you're talking about loving all these parts of ourselves and the twelve step literature as we go into it. But the twelve step literature is largely based originally on the original text, which was AA's Big book Alcohol tends to be fairly strong in its language about selfishness is our problem. Yeah, we have these character defects that we have to get rid of. Right, there's not a whole lot there necessarily at first glance about loving these parts of us that are problematic. I often would hear people say I'm still a liar, cheating, a thief. And that's not said in a like I'm proud of it way. It's there's some part of me that's bad, and I need to use this program to get rid of it. So let's just start talking there. As a thing that I do know that rubs some people wrong about twelve step language is that idea they don't want to talk about character defects. They may feel terrible about themselves already, So let's help reframe that or give that some context.

Yeah, and the two of the matter. Listen, that book was written in nineteen thirty five, Right, we're sort of judging their content of information based on the information that we have today. So we can see the stark contrast in these ideologies, and so I think, first off, I just want to say that that's actually very valid. Yeah, it's very valid to just be like, hey, you know, there is a lot of this language in there that is sort of reinforcing shame as opposed to resolving it. Like this idea of character defects, I don't actually like that word myself. Now. I will tell people to go back to literature all the time, and I do have my own opinions, and one of my opinions is that I like to think of character defects as survival skills, right, like the character defects. Like if you do read the literature, they do talk about how these are natural instincts that are out of balance. So while there is talk about character defects, there is also sort of compassionate language around hey, this is a natural instinct and it was just out of balance. But we do have this negativity bias where we do sort of focus on the negative and discard the positive and so if both things are in it, it just depends on what you focus on, like the good wolf in the bubble, but both are actually valid. And I am very sensitive to people who are vulnerable, and you know, to go to this program feeling guilt and shame and to be confronted with that is very challenging on so many levels. And I think like when someone you know kind of hits bottom and they're just like, okay, like there are some things that are not working. I'm willing to surrender and receive information like you're actually doing some stuff that's wrong, which is just flat wrong. Yep. And so it is a little harsh. There is a lot of focus on character defects because those are the things that need corrected. We don't need to correct the good things already. Yeah, it's okay, let's talk about the problems. Let's bring some solutions and so that you can feel better.

Yeah, and the two of the matter. Listen, that book was written in nineteen thirty five, Right, we're sort of judging their content of information based on the information that we have today. So we can see the stark contrast in these ideologies, and so I think, first off, I just want to say that that's actually very valid. Yeah, it's very valid to just be like, hey, you know, there is a lot of this language in there that is sort of reinforcing shame as opposed to resolving it. Like this idea of character defects, I don't actually like that word myself. Now. I will tell people to go back to literature all the time, and I do have my own opinions, and one of my opinions is that I like to think of character defects as survival skills, right, like the character defects. Like if you do read the literature, they do talk about how these are natural instincts that are out of balance. So while there is talk about character defects, there is also sort of compassionate language around hey, this is a natural instinct and it was just out of balance. But we do have this negativity bias where we do sort of focus on the negative and discard the positive and so if both things are in it, it just depends on what you focus on, like the good wolf in the bubble, but both are actually valid. And I am very sensitive to people who are vulnerable, and you know, to go to this program feeling guilt and shame and to be confronted with that is very challenging on so many levels. And I think like when someone you know kind of hits bottom and they're just like, okay, like there are some things that are not working. I'm willing to surrender and receive information like you're actually doing some stuff that's wrong, which is just flat wrong. Yep. And so it is a little harsh. There is a lot of focus on character defects because those are the things that need corrected. We don't need to correct the good things already. Yeah, it's okay, let's talk about the problems. Let's bring some solutions and so that you can feel better.

Right, And I think the modern insight that underlies this, which isn't in the book, and we could debate whether the book should be updated or not, but is that yes, character defects and yes, our selfishness are actually really problems, and they are part of the reason that we are stuck in the mess that we are in. The more modern insight is those things exist for a reason. Those things are serving some sort of purpose, and again that purpose is not working anymore. But it made sense, and so it moves from as Gabor Montek famously said, don't ask why the addiction, asked why the pain exactly. But I do think for me that that idea of particularly the lines about you know, selfishness, self centeredness, is the root of our problem. Those changed my life. It's strong medicine, it is strong medicine. But for me it was right because of what I realized was whether I was thinking good about myself or thinking bad about myself, what I was doing was always thinking about just myself.

Right, And I think the modern insight that underlies this, which isn't in the book, and we could debate whether the book should be updated or not, but is that yes, character defects and yes, our selfishness are actually really problems, and they are part of the reason that we are stuck in the mess that we are in. The more modern insight is those things exist for a reason. Those things are serving some sort of purpose, and again that purpose is not working anymore. But it made sense, and so it moves from as Gabor Montek famously said, don't ask why the addiction, asked why the pain exactly. But I do think for me that that idea of particularly the lines about you know, selfishness, self centeredness, is the root of our problem. Those changed my life. It's strong medicine, it is strong medicine. But for me it was right because of what I realized was whether I was thinking good about myself or thinking bad about myself, what I was doing was always thinking about just myself.

Yeah, yeah, I showed up pretty broken. Yeah, you know, self centered to the extreme, self seeking to the extreme. But why was I seeking so hard? Yeah? I had needs that were not being met and all my survival skills that I had developed in childhood were not transferable to healthy adult life. And so, you know, I was met with that strong medicine. But I was just at that point where I was like, my way is not working, and I was in such a state of humility that I was like, Okay, tell me how you did this thing. Yeah, and let's not get it twisted. You know, people typically go there because their lives are It's not just that they're not going well, they're going bad. Like really all right, you know what I mean. It's like, although there is a lot of conversation now with like dry January stuff, like people are recognizing that living in alcohol free is about optimization. It's not necessarily because you have a problem. But most people go there because life is terrible. And that's where I was. I was in so much emotional pain. I was like, do I kill myself or do I get sober? And it was something I had to deliberate.

Yeah, yeah, I showed up pretty broken. Yeah, you know, self centered to the extreme, self seeking to the extreme. But why was I seeking so hard? Yeah? I had needs that were not being met and all my survival skills that I had developed in childhood were not transferable to healthy adult life. And so, you know, I was met with that strong medicine. But I was just at that point where I was like, my way is not working, and I was in such a state of humility that I was like, Okay, tell me how you did this thing. Yeah, and let's not get it twisted. You know, people typically go there because their lives are It's not just that they're not going well, they're going bad. Like really all right, you know what I mean. It's like, although there is a lot of conversation now with like dry January stuff, like people are recognizing that living in alcohol free is about optimization. It's not necessarily because you have a problem. But most people go there because life is terrible. And that's where I was. I was in so much emotional pain. I was like, do I kill myself or do I get sober? And it was something I had to deliberate.

I was like, right, right, And I think that the couple of things that make a lot of this difficult in a way are that, indeed, addiction issues alcohol use disorder ranges on a vast spectrum. It's one person's quote unquote bottom is very different than what another person's is. Yeah, And I think also it's a good thing on the whole that there are alternatives to twelve step programs, because I think even when we get past some of the misconceptions that you're talking about, they're not for everybody, So I think it's good that there's other things out there. I'm kind of glad for me that there wasn't me too, right, because I was dying. I was going to go to jail for a really long time, and I'm glad I didn't spend any more time than I already had messing around with apps or this or that. Like I just went and it was the only thing that there was saying, and it was a little bit intense, but it worked. It saved my life, you know, they saved my life twice. And so again I feel mixed because I think it's really good that there are alternatives, and for some people an app will stop their drinking in an optimization type way. That would not have worked for me at that point, right, I needed something far more than that.

I was like, right, right, And I think that the couple of things that make a lot of this difficult in a way are that, indeed, addiction issues alcohol use disorder ranges on a vast spectrum. It's one person's quote unquote bottom is very different than what another person's is. Yeah, And I think also it's a good thing on the whole that there are alternatives to twelve step programs, because I think even when we get past some of the misconceptions that you're talking about, they're not for everybody, So I think it's good that there's other things out there. I'm kind of glad for me that there wasn't me too, right, because I was dying. I was going to go to jail for a really long time, and I'm glad I didn't spend any more time than I already had messing around with apps or this or that. Like I just went and it was the only thing that there was saying, and it was a little bit intense, but it worked. It saved my life, you know, they saved my life twice. And so again I feel mixed because I think it's really good that there are alternatives, and for some people an app will stop their drinking in an optimization type way. That would not have worked for me at that point, right, I needed something far more than that.

Same. Yeah, I think we got Seber the same year, And I'm also very grateful that there wasn't anything else available, Like there was no recovery memoirs, there were no you know, there is sober social media accounts, which is kind of one of the reasons why I wrote the book, because there's a lot of people that are openly bashing twelve Step, but you know, I'm not one of those that it's this or and only this, Like I'm an and the Girl, I'm like the hill I will die on. Is the twelve Steps are a worthy endeavor. I'm not saying it's the only thing that you should do. I'm just saying that there are amazing benefits to it, largely for free, and that it's just a realthly endeavor. I'm an and girl, So I'm like twelve steps and therapy, I'm yoga and twelve start. You know, there's just so many different modalities. This is such a great time to get sober or to get alcohol free, if that's kind of a thing for optimization. But I'm just saying in this book that the Twelve Steps are a worthy endeavor. I just wanted to meet some of the roadblocks head on, which I think are actually very valid and just be like, here's a way to round that so that you get the benefit. Because it benefits are so good. Like you said, it saved your life, me too, but it not only saved my life, like it gave me sort of a very practical and pragmatic way for problem resolution, for self examination, for goal achievement.

Same. Yeah, I think we got Seber the same year, And I'm also very grateful that there wasn't anything else available, Like there was no recovery memoirs, there were no you know, there is sober social media accounts, which is kind of one of the reasons why I wrote the book, because there's a lot of people that are openly bashing twelve Step, but you know, I'm not one of those that it's this or and only this, Like I'm an and the Girl, I'm like the hill I will die on. Is the twelve Steps are a worthy endeavor. I'm not saying it's the only thing that you should do. I'm just saying that there are amazing benefits to it, largely for free, and that it's just a realthly endeavor. I'm an and girl, So I'm like twelve steps and therapy, I'm yoga and twelve start. You know, there's just so many different modalities. This is such a great time to get sober or to get alcohol free, if that's kind of a thing for optimization. But I'm just saying in this book that the Twelve Steps are a worthy endeavor. I just wanted to meet some of the roadblocks head on, which I think are actually very valid and just be like, here's a way to round that so that you get the benefit. Because it benefits are so good. Like you said, it saved your life, me too, but it not only saved my life, like it gave me sort of a very practical and pragmatic way for problem resolution, for self examination, for goal achievement.

Yeah, I love that idea, and let's address some of these barriers upfront. Okay, I think there are two types of barriers, right. Barrier one is do I really need to get sober? Barrier two is do I need to do it in this way in this program? So I want to talk about category one just for a second, and I think the first one there and you talk about this is you know, can't I just learn to moderate and say a little bit about that?

Yeah, I love that idea, and let's address some of these barriers upfront. Okay, I think there are two types of barriers, right. Barrier one is do I really need to get sober? Barrier two is do I need to do it in this way in this program? So I want to talk about category one just for a second, and I think the first one there and you talk about this is you know, can't I just learn to moderate and say a little bit about that?

Well, listen, in society, like alcohol is the only drug you have to explain why you're not using it. We are just so bombarded with messages of you know, drinking it's fun and all that stuff. So there's a lot of external influence to drink, right, and so it's very hard to come to the just and listen. Like for me, it was a reliable source of medicine. It was medicine for me, to be honest. It was my way of emotion management that ultimately did not work well for me because when I just alcohol, there's like this switch that gets flipped and all I want is more. And so I did try to moderate for two years after a particularly bad night involving the police. I didn't end up going to jail, partly because I was dating this policeman.

Well, listen, in society, like alcohol is the only drug you have to explain why you're not using it. We are just so bombarded with messages of you know, drinking it's fun and all that stuff. So there's a lot of external influence to drink, right, and so it's very hard to come to the just and listen. Like for me, it was a reliable source of medicine. It was medicine for me, to be honest. It was my way of emotion management that ultimately did not work well for me because when I just alcohol, there's like this switch that gets flipped and all I want is more. And so I did try to moderate for two years after a particularly bad night involving the police. I didn't end up going to jail, partly because I was dating this policeman.

Good strategy, perhaps going to get in trouble with the law often.

Good strategy, perhaps going to get in trouble with the law often.

Yeah, yeah, I've.

Yeah, yeah, I've.

Never contemplated that one till now. I never this opportunity totally kind to run this thing out a few more years at least, you know it.

Never contemplated that one till now. I never this opportunity totally kind to run this thing out a few more years at least, you know it.

Jeez. Yeah. I had a really bad night and I woke up the next morning. I really hurt my sister and physically and emotionally and super traumatized. And I woke up with that horrible, sickening, sinking feeling that something terrible had happened the night before, and I had to hear everything secondhand because I was a blackout drinker. Yeah right, And that's when I started asking the questions like am I an alcoholic? Like what makes me different from all my friends who drink like I do? And it just like one question, let to do another? And so I was like, you know what, let me just try to moderate this thing. I'm me just try to learn how to control it and drink like a lady. Yeah, because I was drinking like a trucker. I was not drinking for you, like I was sailor, Lord have mercy. So I was like, let me, try to control this thing. And so I spent the next two years in the self help section of Barnes and Noble, like trying to figure out what was my problem. Really, yeah, it can't be this truth is as I was. I was kind of on the right track. But you know, thirty years ago I was reading books like Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus, the Seven Spiritual Laws of success or money or Abundance. I forgot what it was. I was a deepalk droper book. But I was trying to think my way into right living kind of a thing, and I was trying to moderate. So that was like a glass of water between drinks. That was eating before I went out, and blah blah blah, keep a couple of assprun out a glass of water by my nightstand, because when you wake up at three o'clock in the morning with cotton mouth, you're so like, yep, completely dehydrant out of I thought, oh, yeah, if I could prevent the hangover, maybe that was the thing. Vitamins whatever. So I didn't have a horrible night every night I drank. But when I had a horrible night, it was because I was drinking. And I really just could not moderate. I couldn't predict what would happen once I started drinking, even with all these crazy plans I had in place. And I kind of joke around that I had two alter egos when I was drinking. I had bad ass Bency or Windy Windy because I was either fighting or crying. There's a third, bloody Susan, and literally everybody loved her. Yeah. I'd like to joke around that if I could encapsulate my drinking experience, is that if it was in a bottle, a bag, or blue jeans, I was doing it.

Jeez. Yeah. I had a really bad night and I woke up the next morning. I really hurt my sister and physically and emotionally and super traumatized. And I woke up with that horrible, sickening, sinking feeling that something terrible had happened the night before, and I had to hear everything secondhand because I was a blackout drinker. Yeah right, And that's when I started asking the questions like am I an alcoholic? Like what makes me different from all my friends who drink like I do? And it just like one question, let to do another? And so I was like, you know what, let me just try to moderate this thing. I'm me just try to learn how to control it and drink like a lady. Yeah, because I was drinking like a trucker. I was not drinking for you, like I was sailor, Lord have mercy. So I was like, let me, try to control this thing. And so I spent the next two years in the self help section of Barnes and Noble, like trying to figure out what was my problem. Really, yeah, it can't be this truth is as I was. I was kind of on the right track. But you know, thirty years ago I was reading books like Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus, the Seven Spiritual Laws of success or money or Abundance. I forgot what it was. I was a deepalk droper book. But I was trying to think my way into right living kind of a thing, and I was trying to moderate. So that was like a glass of water between drinks. That was eating before I went out, and blah blah blah, keep a couple of assprun out a glass of water by my nightstand, because when you wake up at three o'clock in the morning with cotton mouth, you're so like, yep, completely dehydrant out of I thought, oh, yeah, if I could prevent the hangover, maybe that was the thing. Vitamins whatever. So I didn't have a horrible night every night I drank. But when I had a horrible night, it was because I was drinking. And I really just could not moderate. I couldn't predict what would happen once I started drinking, even with all these crazy plans I had in place. And I kind of joke around that I had two alter egos when I was drinking. I had bad ass Bency or Windy Windy because I was either fighting or crying. There's a third, bloody Susan, and literally everybody loved her. Yeah. I'd like to joke around that if I could encapsulate my drinking experience, is that if it was in a bottle, a bag, or blue jeans, I was doing it.

That's good.

That's good.

That's good, phil void literally and figuratively super fun, that's good. Yeah.

That's good, phil void literally and figuratively super fun, that's good. Yeah.

Yeah, Moderation is an interesting one. There's a line from a big book that seared itself into my brain, which was I may not get it exact because I'm in a little bit of ways from it, but the thought that somehow, some way they'll control their drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker.

Yeah, Moderation is an interesting one. There's a line from a big book that seared itself into my brain, which was I may not get it exact because I'm in a little bit of ways from it, but the thought that somehow, some way they'll control their drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker.

Control and enjoy.

Control and enjoy.

Oh that's right, yes, okay, so control and enjoy their drinking. Because I was trying to control and enjoy it from very early on. I knew like hang on like something in me was like, something's off. But I tried moderation too, and the first time that I got sober, I was a homeless heroin addict who's no doubt in anyone's mind, including mine. I had fifty years at jail time. I mean, there was just no doubt. This isn't working. Yeah, I stayed sober about eight years. I went back out and all I did when I went back out was drink and smoke an enormous amount of marijuana. And over time it began to dawn on me, this isn't going so well now. I wasn't having external consequences. Everything on the outside was okay. I had the best job I'd ever had, I was getting promoted, you know, But inside I knew I was really sick. But I also knew that, like, I'm going to have to be abstinate and go back to recovery. God, I don't want to do that. So maybe I can moderate. And I thought to myself, there's a program called moderation management out there. I'm going to try this. And I was moderation Management's best student for a while, or what I should say is I was its most ardent student at trying and still got in f but I remember nights like this where it's a like eleven thirty night, I got to get up at six thirty in the morning. I'm already fairly hammered at this point, and I'm standing by the sink and my brain is fighting me. I'm fighting my brain. It's like one more shot, one more shot, And of course I'm going there's no reasonable reason to have one more shot. You're already three or four shots over what moderation looks like. And yet I mean, I lost that battle more often than I won it. And I had that realization that you just talked about control and enjoy I realized I can try and control my drinking not very well, but it's miserable. It's miserable because I'm having the eleven thirty at night battle over a shot of whiskey that's tearing me apart inside. Or I can just let off the reins and enjoy it, except that at this point for me, there's a little bit of enjoyment and a whole lot of trouble. And I'm really glad that I tried moderation management, like really tried it. Yeah, because it just now when my brain starts that dance up again. I'm like, Nope, you tried, done work, not for you.

Oh that's right, yes, okay, so control and enjoy their drinking. Because I was trying to control and enjoy it from very early on. I knew like hang on like something in me was like, something's off. But I tried moderation too, and the first time that I got sober, I was a homeless heroin addict who's no doubt in anyone's mind, including mine. I had fifty years at jail time. I mean, there was just no doubt. This isn't working. Yeah, I stayed sober about eight years. I went back out and all I did when I went back out was drink and smoke an enormous amount of marijuana. And over time it began to dawn on me, this isn't going so well now. I wasn't having external consequences. Everything on the outside was okay. I had the best job I'd ever had, I was getting promoted, you know, But inside I knew I was really sick. But I also knew that, like, I'm going to have to be abstinate and go back to recovery. God, I don't want to do that. So maybe I can moderate. And I thought to myself, there's a program called moderation management out there. I'm going to try this. And I was moderation Management's best student for a while, or what I should say is I was its most ardent student at trying and still got in f but I remember nights like this where it's a like eleven thirty night, I got to get up at six thirty in the morning. I'm already fairly hammered at this point, and I'm standing by the sink and my brain is fighting me. I'm fighting my brain. It's like one more shot, one more shot, And of course I'm going there's no reasonable reason to have one more shot. You're already three or four shots over what moderation looks like. And yet I mean, I lost that battle more often than I won it. And I had that realization that you just talked about control and enjoy I realized I can try and control my drinking not very well, but it's miserable. It's miserable because I'm having the eleven thirty at night battle over a shot of whiskey that's tearing me apart inside. Or I can just let off the reins and enjoy it, except that at this point for me, there's a little bit of enjoyment and a whole lot of trouble. And I'm really glad that I tried moderation management, like really tried it. Yeah, because it just now when my brain starts that dance up again. I'm like, Nope, you tried, done work, not for you.

You had enough evidence. Yeah, I think that's such important information to how like, I love this idea of run the experiment, and we ran the experiment. We ran the moderation experiment, and we gave it the old college try. You know, an experiment. You know, I love the lens of science because it has a way of depersonalizing things, so like shame and guilt are not involved. But it's like, let's just run the experiment. And I ran the experiment, and I tried and tried and tried. I dancy myself a clever girl. It's like, okay, but an experiment is you have a presupposition, and do you run the experiment. You take some actions, right, you have some beliefs, you make some decisions, you take some actions, and then you examine the result. Right, And my results were coming out pretty clear that I am just not that person who can moderate. There are some people who can. Yeah, absolutely, in all transparency, there are some people who can do that. You know, like you said in the beginning, you know, addiction or alcohol usessor is a spectrum, so there will be people somewhere along the line. Who can choose to soften it's not a thing, or maybe they can choose to moderate. For me, it just took up too much mental bandwidth because I have this element of obsession that maybe some people don't have. Yes, and so once I start drinking, it's that switch that gets flipped that says more and I don't have any ability to moderate that. So going through this process of trying to moderate, I would argue, is essential.

You had enough evidence. Yeah, I think that's such important information to how like, I love this idea of run the experiment, and we ran the experiment. We ran the moderation experiment, and we gave it the old college try. You know, an experiment. You know, I love the lens of science because it has a way of depersonalizing things, so like shame and guilt are not involved. But it's like, let's just run the experiment. And I ran the experiment, and I tried and tried and tried. I dancy myself a clever girl. It's like, okay, but an experiment is you have a presupposition, and do you run the experiment. You take some actions, right, you have some beliefs, you make some decisions, you take some actions, and then you examine the result. Right, And my results were coming out pretty clear that I am just not that person who can moderate. There are some people who can. Yeah, absolutely, in all transparency, there are some people who can do that. You know, like you said in the beginning, you know, addiction or alcohol usessor is a spectrum, so there will be people somewhere along the line. Who can choose to soften it's not a thing, or maybe they can choose to moderate. For me, it just took up too much mental bandwidth because I have this element of obsession that maybe some people don't have. Yes, and so once I start drinking, it's that switch that gets flipped that says more and I don't have any ability to moderate that. So going through this process of trying to moderate, I would argue, is essential.

You're not going to give up something that you love without a really good reason, right, love love, Yeah, And so I agree. I think the moderation is a useful experiment. I love the lens of experiment too, and I tried that experiment. That's how I went back out after eight years. Was this belief like, well, I'm just not going to do heroin. Obviously that's a terrible idea. We all know that, and so I'm just going to drink. And the experiment it's sort of like when they test the effectiveness of a drug. You know, in the first month, you're like, hey, this drug's pretty effective, and then they realize that after three years it will kill you. That was kind of my experiment, and that's not an experiment that I want to run again, because experiments can be expensive, you know, and deadly, these type of experiments, and so you know, I ran at once, didn't work, and I remain fairly clear that I can't do that. So okay, moderation, you go through it, you figure it out. And let's say we now arrive at a point where I'm like, Okay, it seems pretty clear that there's no moderation for me. Right, I'm either on or off, but I don't have that slow down switch.

You're not going to give up something that you love without a really good reason, right, love love, Yeah, And so I agree. I think the moderation is a useful experiment. I love the lens of experiment too, and I tried that experiment. That's how I went back out after eight years. Was this belief like, well, I'm just not going to do heroin. Obviously that's a terrible idea. We all know that, and so I'm just going to drink. And the experiment it's sort of like when they test the effectiveness of a drug. You know, in the first month, you're like, hey, this drug's pretty effective, and then they realize that after three years it will kill you. That was kind of my experiment, and that's not an experiment that I want to run again, because experiments can be expensive, you know, and deadly, these type of experiments, and so you know, I ran at once, didn't work, and I remain fairly clear that I can't do that. So okay, moderation, you go through it, you figure it out. And let's say we now arrive at a point where I'm like, Okay, it seems pretty clear that there's no moderation for me. Right, I'm either on or off, but I don't have that slow down switch.

The cost is too high.

The cost is too high.

Yep, So now I need help. I'm looking around at help and I see twelve step programs and I go, ugh, Right.

Yep, So now I need help. I'm looking around at help and I see twelve step programs and I go, ugh, Right.

Isn't that funny that that's like the common response to twelve I was like, oh God, Like.

Isn't that funny that that's like the common response to twelve I was like, oh God, Like.

Well, I think honestly, for nearly anybody who is facing down getting sober, it could be anything, and they would be like, uh to anything that asks much out of them. Right, But twelve step programs people know more about them than they do any other alternative because of the media and all of these different things. Right, we have an idea of what that means. Whereas if I said you should go to smart recovery, people would be like, Okay, what the heck is that no one has any idea because you know, it's a small thing. So one of the things that you say is I almost missed out on my sobriety because the program isn't what I thought it was going to be a sad, shameful group of dingy church basement dwellers.

Well, I think honestly, for nearly anybody who is facing down getting sober, it could be anything, and they would be like, uh to anything that asks much out of them. Right, But twelve step programs people know more about them than they do any other alternative because of the media and all of these different things. Right, we have an idea of what that means. Whereas if I said you should go to smart recovery, people would be like, Okay, what the heck is that no one has any idea because you know, it's a small thing. So one of the things that you say is I almost missed out on my sobriety because the program isn't what I thought it was going to be a sad, shameful group of dingy church basement dwellers.

That's what I thought it was.

That's what I thought it was.

Well that some meetings are kind of that way, to be honest.

Well that some meetings are kind of that way, to be honest.

There's a few, to be honest, you know what, I've grown to love those two. Me too, Me too, but yeah, because the essence is that it wasn't what I thought it was, and it's no interesting. You know, I coach people who want to get sober who don't want to do that, and I will always ask why yeah, or even the people that interview, I always ask why not? And it's always like so there are to read big trigger words that typically heat people out if you look at the steps at face value. Like when I read that, like I wrote this book because I'm a skeptic, I saw the steps and I saw god, I saw alcoholic, and I saw powerless and I was like, no, thank you. Yeah, but then my way wasn't working. There wasn't nothing else. I was like, fine, I'll go yeah, you know, and I met this girl. I talk about her in the book a lot kimmers. You know. I was like, listen, if this is religious, if this is the God thing, like, I'm not going to be able to do this because I grew up in the church, and I felt like I had been begged Gog my whole life to fix me. Yeah, and here we are still human, right. I was still make all these mistakes. I was still acting in ways that were not in alignment with the values that I grew up with, and so I thought I was a bad person. So I kept asking God to fix me. And I got to this point where I was like, you know what, if I can't be good, I kept failing. I thought I was failing, and so I decided if I couldn't be good, I was gonna be good at being bad. So that's so. And I got sober, and you know, I was like, if that's what this is, I'm not going to be able to see it. And this grip pulled me aside and she was like, hey, you know, it's not a thing, don't worry about it. She's like, just for funzies. Let's do this little exercise. She said, take pace paper out on one side, write down all the attributes that you would want God to be. And I was like, okay, well it's like loving powerful, I'm clearly the favorites ape Like it had to make sense to me, like what did I really know about God? Because I grew up with God and there were times when I had spiritual experiences and so I was trying to draw from, like all the positive things I had felt growing up. And she's like, well, what don't you want it to be? And I was like, well, punish you know this idea of hell? What is it all about? How can you say that you love me but then condemn me to hell? Like I'm born on the wrong side of the planet and they have a different religion or whatever. And she was like okay. So when I was done, she said, hand me a piece of paper and I handed it to her and she tore it in half as she handed me back the bahasative side and she's like, let's just start with this. I was like, that's it, and she's like that's it. I was like, oh good. So it was introduced to this idea that you could readefine words. Yeah, like who gets to decide what God means to you?

There's a few, to be honest, you know what, I've grown to love those two. Me too, Me too, but yeah, because the essence is that it wasn't what I thought it was, and it's no interesting. You know, I coach people who want to get sober who don't want to do that, and I will always ask why yeah, or even the people that interview, I always ask why not? And it's always like so there are to read big trigger words that typically heat people out if you look at the steps at face value. Like when I read that, like I wrote this book because I'm a skeptic, I saw the steps and I saw god, I saw alcoholic, and I saw powerless and I was like, no, thank you. Yeah, but then my way wasn't working. There wasn't nothing else. I was like, fine, I'll go yeah, you know, and I met this girl. I talk about her in the book a lot kimmers. You know. I was like, listen, if this is religious, if this is the God thing, like, I'm not going to be able to do this because I grew up in the church, and I felt like I had been begged Gog my whole life to fix me. Yeah, and here we are still human, right. I was still make all these mistakes. I was still acting in ways that were not in alignment with the values that I grew up with, and so I thought I was a bad person. So I kept asking God to fix me. And I got to this point where I was like, you know what, if I can't be good, I kept failing. I thought I was failing, and so I decided if I couldn't be good, I was gonna be good at being bad. So that's so. And I got sober, and you know, I was like, if that's what this is, I'm not going to be able to see it. And this grip pulled me aside and she was like, hey, you know, it's not a thing, don't worry about it. She's like, just for funzies. Let's do this little exercise. She said, take pace paper out on one side, write down all the attributes that you would want God to be. And I was like, okay, well it's like loving powerful, I'm clearly the favorites ape Like it had to make sense to me, like what did I really know about God? Because I grew up with God and there were times when I had spiritual experiences and so I was trying to draw from, like all the positive things I had felt growing up. And she's like, well, what don't you want it to be? And I was like, well, punish you know this idea of hell? What is it all about? How can you say that you love me but then condemn me to hell? Like I'm born on the wrong side of the planet and they have a different religion or whatever. And she was like okay. So when I was done, she said, hand me a piece of paper and I handed it to her and she tore it in half as she handed me back the bahasative side and she's like, let's just start with this. I was like, that's it, and she's like that's it. I was like, oh good. So it was introduced to this idea that you could readefine words. Yeah, like who gets to decide what God means to you?

Right?

Right?

You do? Like I have like this rebellious nature. I was like, nobody's going to tell me what God means to me? Yeah, I'm going to decide. But I just didn't know that that was an option until she told me. It was an option that was revolutionary to me.

You do? Like I have like this rebellious nature. I was like, nobody's going to tell me what God means to me? Yeah, I'm going to decide. But I just didn't know that that was an option until she told me. It was an option that was revolutionary to me.

So listener, consider this. You're halfway through the episode Integration reminder. Remember knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. It can be transformative to take a minute to synthesize information rather than just in testing it in a detached way. So let's collectively take a moment to pause and reflect. What's your one big insight so far and how can you put it into practice in your life? Seriously, just take a second, pause the audio and reflect. It can be so powerful to have these reminders to stop and be present. Cant it. If you want to keep this momentum going that you built with this little exercise, I'd encourage you to get on our Good Wolf Reminders SMS list. I'll shoot you two texts a week with insightful little prompts and wisdom from podcast guests. They're a nice little nudge to stop and be present in your life, and they're a helpful way to not get lost in the busyness and forget what is important. You can join at oneufeed dot net slash sms and if you don't like them, you can get off a list really easily. So far, there are over one and seventy two others from the one you Feed community on the list, and we'd love to welcome you as well, So head on over to oneufeed dot net slash sms and let's feed our good wolves together. I think that line that as a last second decision, tacked on to the end of the third step after a whole lot of debate about it. God comma as we understood him, and now it still says him. But at least it gave this little wiggle room there, right, And I bet that line saved millions of people's lives. You know, my problem was different around God. My problem was I came in and I didn't believe in God, and so I came in and I was told, you need to have a higher power and it needs to you know, you can make it whatever you want. But it's nineteen ninety four in Columbus, Ohio. And this is what ninety five percent of us are talking about when we say God. We may drop the judging, shameful pieces, but we still believe it's this thing that's going to intervene on your behalf and get you sober. And I was so desperate. I was like, Okay, fine, okay, I'm in. I'm in, I'm in. I'll do whatever it takes. And I tried and I tried, and I tried to believe. And that's something really bad happened in my life. And I realized that I didn't have a God that made any sense to me. And that was the beginning of the unraveling. It still took me a few years, but eventually I went back out. So when I came back I was like, all right, I can't pretend again, what do I do with God? Because I don't believe in an interventionist God that does anything. I don't believe in a person I just that's me, right. And what I realized was I can't build my life on something I don't personally believe. That's a bad strategy. And so then for me it became I need to do an even more radical re understanding of what this means, and so my problem was slightly different, but it is doable. As you mentioned in the book, some people just have God be an acronym for group of drunks, meaning I believe the people in the program, the support of that can help me get sober. And I think that's a really good one. Some people say good order direction, right, that's another one.

So listener, consider this. You're halfway through the episode Integration reminder. Remember knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. It can be transformative to take a minute to synthesize information rather than just in testing it in a detached way. So let's collectively take a moment to pause and reflect. What's your one big insight so far and how can you put it into practice in your life? Seriously, just take a second, pause the audio and reflect. It can be so powerful to have these reminders to stop and be present. Cant it. If you want to keep this momentum going that you built with this little exercise, I'd encourage you to get on our Good Wolf Reminders SMS list. I'll shoot you two texts a week with insightful little prompts and wisdom from podcast guests. They're a nice little nudge to stop and be present in your life, and they're a helpful way to not get lost in the busyness and forget what is important. You can join at oneufeed dot net slash sms and if you don't like them, you can get off a list really easily. So far, there are over one and seventy two others from the one you Feed community on the list, and we'd love to welcome you as well, So head on over to oneufeed dot net slash sms and let's feed our good wolves together. I think that line that as a last second decision, tacked on to the end of the third step after a whole lot of debate about it. God comma as we understood him, and now it still says him. But at least it gave this little wiggle room there, right, And I bet that line saved millions of people's lives. You know, my problem was different around God. My problem was I came in and I didn't believe in God, and so I came in and I was told, you need to have a higher power and it needs to you know, you can make it whatever you want. But it's nineteen ninety four in Columbus, Ohio. And this is what ninety five percent of us are talking about when we say God. We may drop the judging, shameful pieces, but we still believe it's this thing that's going to intervene on your behalf and get you sober. And I was so desperate. I was like, Okay, fine, okay, I'm in. I'm in, I'm in. I'll do whatever it takes. And I tried and I tried, and I tried to believe. And that's something really bad happened in my life. And I realized that I didn't have a God that made any sense to me. And that was the beginning of the unraveling. It still took me a few years, but eventually I went back out. So when I came back I was like, all right, I can't pretend again, what do I do with God? Because I don't believe in an interventionist God that does anything. I don't believe in a person I just that's me, right. And what I realized was I can't build my life on something I don't personally believe. That's a bad strategy. And so then for me it became I need to do an even more radical re understanding of what this means, and so my problem was slightly different, but it is doable. As you mentioned in the book, some people just have God be an acronym for group of drunks, meaning I believe the people in the program, the support of that can help me get sober. And I think that's a really good one. Some people say good order direction, right, that's another one.

For me.

For me.

It ended up being I believe that there are these sort of principles that we see again and again across religious traditions, across philosophical traditions, across psychological traditions. And my belief became if I had tried to live according to those principles to the best of my ability, yeah, it'll be enough to keep me sober. It'll be enough for me to handle what happens. And that turned out to be a foundation that I could build on. Yeah, I will say that over time, because I don't go to twelve step meetings anymore, and we'll eventually get to what that is. Over time. I got tired of translating in my head. I got tired of hearing somebody talk about God and me go, okay, well, what that actually means to me because a lot of the ways it was talked about was in the interventionist sense, and that didn't make sense to me. So not only was I translating the word, I had to try and translate the sentiment, and just for me, over time, for me, it grew tiring.

It ended up being I believe that there are these sort of principles that we see again and again across religious traditions, across philosophical traditions, across psychological traditions. And my belief became if I had tried to live according to those principles to the best of my ability, yeah, it'll be enough to keep me sober. It'll be enough for me to handle what happens. And that turned out to be a foundation that I could build on. Yeah, I will say that over time, because I don't go to twelve step meetings anymore, and we'll eventually get to what that is. Over time. I got tired of translating in my head. I got tired of hearing somebody talk about God and me go, okay, well, what that actually means to me because a lot of the ways it was talked about was in the interventionist sense, and that didn't make sense to me. So not only was I translating the word, I had to try and translate the sentiment, and just for me, over time, for me, it grew tiring.

I could see that matter is. You know, it's for a lot of people. It's a great place to start. Yeah, yeah, you know, I love this idea of layering tools. Yes, right, So let's just say for arguments, say you know the book Alcoholic Anonymous talks about, you know, gaining access to power like that. Really, if we kind of boil it all down, that's what it's about, access to power. And you and I together is dronger than me by myself.

I could see that matter is. You know, it's for a lot of people. It's a great place to start. Yeah, yeah, you know, I love this idea of layering tools. Yes, right, So let's just say for arguments, say you know the book Alcoholic Anonymous talks about, you know, gaining access to power like that. Really, if we kind of boil it all down, that's what it's about, access to power. And you and I together is dronger than me by myself.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

There's this idea that you can't read the label from inside the jar. And when I'm in the swirling emotions of despair and all that stuff, I'm in a jar and I can't see. But if you said, hey, Arlena, just share with me what you're thinking and I talk about it, there's something about talking about it that relieves some sort of stress. There's a connection that happens, there's some validation. You'd be like yeah, I could see how you feel that way. Like to me, those are like the magic words. I could see how you feel that way. Yeah, so validating, right, and there's something that then makes me feel safe and then my defenses come down and then the truth comes out. And so let's just say that it's a good place to start because those are the types of dynamics and that is a power greater than myself. Like just at mear minimum, that in and of itself, to me was enough. And I really struggled with making sense of God until Cameras was like, just focus on these things and just work out everything. Yeah, the mental gymnastics required to try to figure it out. Sometimes it's just too much, right, But you know, we focus on what we do want, not what we don't want, right, And so I have had this ability to sort of like let go of the rest.

There's this idea that you can't read the label from inside the jar. And when I'm in the swirling emotions of despair and all that stuff, I'm in a jar and I can't see. But if you said, hey, Arlena, just share with me what you're thinking and I talk about it, there's something about talking about it that relieves some sort of stress. There's a connection that happens, there's some validation. You'd be like yeah, I could see how you feel that way. Like to me, those are like the magic words. I could see how you feel that way. Yeah, so validating, right, and there's something that then makes me feel safe and then my defenses come down and then the truth comes out. And so let's just say that it's a good place to start because those are the types of dynamics and that is a power greater than myself. Like just at mear minimum, that in and of itself, to me was enough. And I really struggled with making sense of God until Cameras was like, just focus on these things and just work out everything. Yeah, the mental gymnastics required to try to figure it out. Sometimes it's just too much, right, But you know, we focus on what we do want, not what we don't want, right, And so I have had this ability to sort of like let go of the rest.

Yep.

Yep.

Your book talks about why people don't go to a and then why people leave, and so we're going to come back around to leave, although I keep sort of jumping in because we're in the right spot. But what are the you said three big reasons that people kind of resist. You know, I think we talked about God the other was the word alcoholic. Talk to me about that one.

Your book talks about why people don't go to a and then why people leave, and so we're going to come back around to leave, although I keep sort of jumping in because we're in the right spot. But what are the you said three big reasons that people kind of resist. You know, I think we talked about God the other was the word alcoholic. Talk to me about that one.

Yeah, resistance is huge. Put a pin in that. I want to circle back to that. But the word alcohol like typically brings up these ideas of a man in a trench code. Homeless people typically serves up really negative images. But I started going to meetings and meeting these amazing people. I'm from California, the Silicon Valley area, and I was exposed to a lot of professionals. There was like homeless people too, And this is one of those things, like I found the right meetings that served me, and I went to like the bougie side of town and hung out with the fancy people who were sober. I wanted to be like them because they were seeing things that resonated with me, and they see that you're kind of the average of the five people you spend the most time with. I decided to hang out with people who were like account executives or doctors, lawyers, like I related to them better and they had what I wanted. So I did a lot of that. But I was like, if that's what an alcoholic is, signed me up. Like I wanted what these people had, and so really, what I've come to understand that when people use that word freely is because these are people who have stood at the abyss of despair, of life and death, and even though they had tremendous guilt and shame, they decided to do self examination, which requires a huge amount of heart. Like these people are badass, Like they are able to practice. They're really striving for things like honesty and integrity. Like you were talking about the Principles. I got a friend who's a staunch atheist. He's been going to AA for forty years, and he just decided that he was going to listen for the principles and do that. I was like, sane, sane, because even though you know, I have this relationship with this higher power thing that I don't really understand. I kind of think of it his love, we're both still talking about the same thing and practicality. And so people rail at the word alcoholic at first, it's because they're missing some information. That's a limiting belief. Limiting belief is either missing information or incorrect information. And so I would sort of argue that if you are like throwing AA out, it's because you're harboring a limiting belief. And I'm what you would call recovery promiscuous. I want all the tools that are going to benefit my life. So I don't see the word alcoholic is a shame label. I see it as a badge of honor.

Yeah, resistance is huge. Put a pin in that. I want to circle back to that. But the word alcohol like typically brings up these ideas of a man in a trench code. Homeless people typically serves up really negative images. But I started going to meetings and meeting these amazing people. I'm from California, the Silicon Valley area, and I was exposed to a lot of professionals. There was like homeless people too, And this is one of those things, like I found the right meetings that served me, and I went to like the bougie side of town and hung out with the fancy people who were sober. I wanted to be like them because they were seeing things that resonated with me, and they see that you're kind of the average of the five people you spend the most time with. I decided to hang out with people who were like account executives or doctors, lawyers, like I related to them better and they had what I wanted. So I did a lot of that. But I was like, if that's what an alcoholic is, signed me up. Like I wanted what these people had, and so really, what I've come to understand that when people use that word freely is because these are people who have stood at the abyss of despair, of life and death, and even though they had tremendous guilt and shame, they decided to do self examination, which requires a huge amount of heart. Like these people are badass, Like they are able to practice. They're really striving for things like honesty and integrity. Like you were talking about the Principles. I got a friend who's a staunch atheist. He's been going to AA for forty years, and he just decided that he was going to listen for the principles and do that. I was like, sane, sane, because even though you know, I have this relationship with this higher power thing that I don't really understand. I kind of think of it his love, we're both still talking about the same thing and practicality. And so people rail at the word alcoholic at first, it's because they're missing some information. That's a limiting belief. Limiting belief is either missing information or incorrect information. And so I would sort of argue that if you are like throwing AA out, it's because you're harboring a limiting belief. And I'm what you would call recovery promiscuous. I want all the tools that are going to benefit my life. So I don't see the word alcoholic is a shame label. I see it as a badge of honor.

Yeah, it's interesting. We've explored this topic a lot on the show, and it's this idea of labels and diagnoses when it comes to addiction, mental health, all of this stuff. And I think that ultimately what we want is we want to be able to use labels when they are useful to us and discard them when they're not. Exactly and to your point, know what that label actually really means, or at least means to me. I still I'm seventeen years sober ill. I don't go to twelve step programs. But if you ask me, are you an alcoholic? I would say yes. But that only means one thing to me today. It means that I'm someone who cannot successfully drink alcohol. That's the extent of it. It doesn't mean I'm still sick. It doesn't mean that I have character defects. It doesn't mean that I'm different than other people except in one way right to me, because I don't feel like I'm different than the average person. Right, I don't feel like there's like people in recovery and then normal people like I think that's a useful distinction for a while, and then eventually for me became unuseful. And so for me, it's just that one thing I cannot successfully take mind altering substances. Yeah, I love what you said about a limiting belief right being either incorrect information or was it not enough information or missing information? Yeah, yeah, that's really good.

Yeah, it's interesting. We've explored this topic a lot on the show, and it's this idea of labels and diagnoses when it comes to addiction, mental health, all of this stuff. And I think that ultimately what we want is we want to be able to use labels when they are useful to us and discard them when they're not. Exactly and to your point, know what that label actually really means, or at least means to me. I still I'm seventeen years sober ill. I don't go to twelve step programs. But if you ask me, are you an alcoholic? I would say yes. But that only means one thing to me today. It means that I'm someone who cannot successfully drink alcohol. That's the extent of it. It doesn't mean I'm still sick. It doesn't mean that I have character defects. It doesn't mean that I'm different than other people except in one way right to me, because I don't feel like I'm different than the average person. Right, I don't feel like there's like people in recovery and then normal people like I think that's a useful distinction for a while, and then eventually for me became unuseful. And so for me, it's just that one thing I cannot successfully take mind altering substances. Yeah, I love what you said about a limiting belief right being either incorrect information or was it not enough information or missing information? Yeah, yeah, that's really good.

Yeah, it's just interesting because this program has allowed me to grow on a ball. What I need also changes yep. Right, And I went to meetings for so long because it was sort of just convenient way for me to check a lot of boxes.

Yeah, it's just interesting because this program has allowed me to grow on a ball. What I need also changes yep. Right, And I went to meetings for so long because it was sort of just convenient way for me to check a lot of boxes.

Yeah, and it is. I mean that in a good way. Like when I stepped away, I had to reverse engineer in my mind, what do I think I'm getting there? Why is this working? And now I got to make sure that I'm getting those things elsewhere and that does take some patching together. Whereas AA, like you said, it's a very convenient, you know, one stop shop for a lot of good things.

Yeah, and it is. I mean that in a good way. Like when I stepped away, I had to reverse engineer in my mind, what do I think I'm getting there? Why is this working? And now I got to make sure that I'm getting those things elsewhere and that does take some patching together. Whereas AA, like you said, it's a very convenient, you know, one stop shop for a lot of good things.

Yeah, this is where I'm an and girl like. I still do twelve step meetings occasionally, but I moved five years ago, and so I quit going to in person meetings because in the area that I'm in, it just wasn't feeding me anymore. Yep, And so I decided I needed to layer in more things.

Yeah, this is where I'm an and girl like. I still do twelve step meetings occasionally, but I moved five years ago, and so I quit going to in person meetings because in the area that I'm in, it just wasn't feeding me anymore. Yep, And so I decided I needed to layer in more things.

I should be clear, I will go to a twelve step meeting. I mean, like my friend Chris is fairly active in the program. I'll go with him occasionally. I will go just because, I mean, on one level, I love them. I do think there is a type of beauty that you see in a twelve step meeting that you don't see most of the time anywhere else. And it's there in pretty much every meeting if you look for it. And I am not like against AA or twelve step programs in any way, shape or form, And I'm not like I won't go. They just for me in the last X number of years didn't feel like the best way for me to become the next best version of myself.

I should be clear, I will go to a twelve step meeting. I mean, like my friend Chris is fairly active in the program. I'll go with him occasionally. I will go just because, I mean, on one level, I love them. I do think there is a type of beauty that you see in a twelve step meeting that you don't see most of the time anywhere else. And it's there in pretty much every meeting if you look for it. And I am not like against AA or twelve step programs in any way, shape or form, And I'm not like I won't go. They just for me in the last X number of years didn't feel like the best way for me to become the next best version of myself.

Yeah. I think that it leads to a really good point, is that we need to really trust our instincts. Like everything you said is so valid. The whole point is that we're growing and evolving, and so we need different things. And it's not that I don't like twelve step meetings. It's that I have a crating to go deeper or for more. Yeah, and so I started exploring other things. But at the end of the day, sometimes it's just easier to jump on a zoom meeting and see some friends and hear some good stories, be reminded of information that transformed my life. You know, they say that we have a quick forgetter, but you know you were talking about sort of made me think of what neuroscience calls the default mode network. It's sort of like the way that it's like the neural And I love science because when I don't have faith, I have science, and science is actually explaining a lot of the spiritual dynamics that you and I understand now, right, And so what I know now is that our brain operates on a default mode network. It's the way our neurology was developed. There was this really good book called What Happened than to You? By doctor Bruce Perry and Overwmberin. It's a slight variation on the question of what's wrong with you? And it's such a more gentle, compassionate that it's like, what happened to you? Well, what happened to me is that I had a lot of trauma when I was growing up, and it shaped my neurology. It shaped how I respond to stress in a very specific way, and so in my adulthood I have learned tools and practices that reshape that default. But what I know for sure is that if I stop doing all these practices, I will revert back to my default, which is basically at the essend to be super reduction as a fear based right, like I come back to my survival skills, which no longer serve me in adulthood. And so I just feel like it's a more compassionate lens instead of thinking that I'm an addict or I'm an alcoholic, Like I don't really talk about that a whole lot anymore. I been sober for thirty years. It's been a long time since with all that stuff. When my fear gets kicked up, I do respond in very specific ways, and so I sort of liken it to you know, diet and exercise, Like I could go to the gym every day for a year and be in great shape that if I stop, I've revert back. I live on my gains, which is very painful or like I wouldn't eat one salad and I expect to be healthy the rest of my So it's likely right. So totally gets that. So that's why you know, going to meetings, like I stayed in the book. It's like, I'm not saying that you've got to go to meetings forever. You're a beautiful example of you don't have to do that. And there will be people who say you have to go to meetings for the rest of your life, otherwise you'll relapse and die, you know, which is what we see. Actually, I'm sure you have to. They told me when I first got sober that if you stick around line and I feel, see people die. And that has definitely been my experience. I've you know, lost people. I really loved this, you know, this thing, whatever you want to call it. So I think, you know, when we're talking about the people being problematic, let's just have a little compassion for them because they're afraid they've seen some terrible experience and terrible things. Yeah, but no, you're right, you don't have to do this forever. For me, it was just like a convenient place to get check all the boxes of gratitude and remember what it was like for the future and be of service and connect with spirituality because you know, am I everyday walking around life? I really don't have a lot of opportunities to talk about spirituality and lesson in those rooms where you know it's encouraged to talk about it.