What stories am I telling myself? Well, one that often comes up is, you know, I have to get this done tonight, Like, well do you I want to? Yeah? Do you have to get it done? Well?

What stories am I telling myself? Well, one that often comes up is, you know, I have to get this done tonight, Like, well do you I want to? Yeah? Do you have to get it done? Well?

No?

No?

What does it do to you to force yourself to get it done when you're just feeling spent? Yeah, I guess there's a pretty big cost there. You end up sobbing at the end of the night.

What does it do to you to force yourself to get it done when you're just feeling spent? Yeah, I guess there's a pretty big cost there. You end up sobbing at the end of the night.

Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true, and yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Seth Jay Gillihan, a licensed psychologist who specializes in mindfulness centered cognitive behavioral therapy for anxiety, depression, insomnia, and other conditions. Doctor gillihan has written and lectured nationally and internationally on CBT and how the brain is involved in regulating our moods. He's a fellow at the Center for Neuroscience and Society at Penn and also hosts a weekly Think act B podcast. Today, Eric and Seth discuss his book Mindful Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, A Simple Path to Healing, Hope and Peace.

Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true, and yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Seth Jay Gillihan, a licensed psychologist who specializes in mindfulness centered cognitive behavioral therapy for anxiety, depression, insomnia, and other conditions. Doctor gillihan has written and lectured nationally and internationally on CBT and how the brain is involved in regulating our moods. He's a fellow at the Center for Neuroscience and Society at Penn and also hosts a weekly Think act B podcast. Today, Eric and Seth discuss his book Mindful Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, A Simple Path to Healing, Hope and Peace.

Hi, Seth, Welcome to the show.

Hi, Seth, Welcome to the show.

Hello Eric, Thanks for having me.

Hello Eric, Thanks for having me.

Yeah, I'm happy to have you on. We're going to be discussing your book, Mindful Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, A Simple Path to Healing, hope and Peace. But before we do that, let's start like we always do with the parable. There's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And grandchild stops and they think about it. For a second. They look up at their grandparents, they say, well, which one wins, and the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Yeah, I'm happy to have you on. We're going to be discussing your book, Mindful Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, A Simple Path to Healing, hope and Peace. But before we do that, let's start like we always do with the parable. There's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And grandchild stops and they think about it. For a second. They look up at their grandparents, they say, well, which one wins, and the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Yeah, I've always loved that parable. The first thing that comes to mind comes from my work with anxiety. I treat a lot of anxiety as a therapist, and I've dealt with my own anxiety a lot of the time. I think we have this feeling of I just want to get rid of my anxiety or overcome it in a kind of once in for all way, which is understandable, of course I get that, but it seems like what actually happens with our fears, we don't override it in the brain. It's like we can erase a fear memory and replace it with a safety memory or a safety association. Let's say we've been through a really difficult experience and we've maybe as kids we didn't feel safe allowing ourselves to be vulnerable emotionally, so as adults we carry that forward and we keep protecting ourselves in ways that cut us off from intimacy. So we might then learn in a relationship like oh, I can let my guard down and I don't get punished or hurt the way that I did as a kid. But it's not like that old association is gone. It's not like now I always feel safe in relationships or it's always automatic. There are these two now representations in the brain. One is for vulnerability is dangerous, one is vulnerability is okay. And which of those gets expressed, as the parable suggests, has everything to do with where our attention is focused, how much we're facing the things we're afraid of versus running away from them. But like so many simple and memorable parables, I think it captures so much that's true on many different levels. There's one other level that won't get into in detail. What it has to do with, in a more general way, the types of deeply held beliefs and assumptions that we bring into the world and well that we're taught and we internalize at an early age. And what I'm really interested in lately is how it can start to shift some of those in more helpful ways. I think, in directions that probably are really consistent with the types of things you tend to talk about with your guests on this podcast.

Yeah, I've always loved that parable. The first thing that comes to mind comes from my work with anxiety. I treat a lot of anxiety as a therapist, and I've dealt with my own anxiety a lot of the time. I think we have this feeling of I just want to get rid of my anxiety or overcome it in a kind of once in for all way, which is understandable, of course I get that, but it seems like what actually happens with our fears, we don't override it in the brain. It's like we can erase a fear memory and replace it with a safety memory or a safety association. Let's say we've been through a really difficult experience and we've maybe as kids we didn't feel safe allowing ourselves to be vulnerable emotionally, so as adults we carry that forward and we keep protecting ourselves in ways that cut us off from intimacy. So we might then learn in a relationship like oh, I can let my guard down and I don't get punished or hurt the way that I did as a kid. But it's not like that old association is gone. It's not like now I always feel safe in relationships or it's always automatic. There are these two now representations in the brain. One is for vulnerability is dangerous, one is vulnerability is okay. And which of those gets expressed, as the parable suggests, has everything to do with where our attention is focused, how much we're facing the things we're afraid of versus running away from them. But like so many simple and memorable parables, I think it captures so much that's true on many different levels. There's one other level that won't get into in detail. What it has to do with, in a more general way, the types of deeply held beliefs and assumptions that we bring into the world and well that we're taught and we internalize at an early age. And what I'm really interested in lately is how it can start to shift some of those in more helpful ways. I think, in directions that probably are really consistent with the types of things you tend to talk about with your guests on this podcast.

Yeah, I love that idea of we don't get rid of those earlier memories, we just now have a choice of different potential ones. The example I often use is like, I know, now, if I'm in a room with men who are about my father's age, and if they're slightly disproving, like even not smiling, I start to get anxious. And I know why. It doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, But I also know I've had lots of great experiences with men my father's age where it's gone very well and they've become friends and mentors, and so yeah, like you're saying, I have to sort of in that moment recognize what's happening and choose what kind of action I want to take based on my values, but also based on like, Okay, there's examples of safety here, there's not only examples of fear. So I love the way you brought that up, and I think as we go on, that's going to tie to your main method that comes up in your book, which is think, act and B. We'll get to that in a minute, but where i'd love to start is kind of the journey that brought you to this book because there was a lot of personal things going on with you. I think that brought you from being a CBT therapist, and that was kind of one thing into viewing CBT in a different way and adding some things to it. And I'm just wonder if you could share kind of that story or that journey.

Yeah, I love that idea of we don't get rid of those earlier memories, we just now have a choice of different potential ones. The example I often use is like, I know, now, if I'm in a room with men who are about my father's age, and if they're slightly disproving, like even not smiling, I start to get anxious. And I know why. It doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, But I also know I've had lots of great experiences with men my father's age where it's gone very well and they've become friends and mentors, and so yeah, like you're saying, I have to sort of in that moment recognize what's happening and choose what kind of action I want to take based on my values, but also based on like, Okay, there's examples of safety here, there's not only examples of fear. So I love the way you brought that up, and I think as we go on, that's going to tie to your main method that comes up in your book, which is think, act and B. We'll get to that in a minute, but where i'd love to start is kind of the journey that brought you to this book because there was a lot of personal things going on with you. I think that brought you from being a CBT therapist, and that was kind of one thing into viewing CBT in a different way and adding some things to it. And I'm just wonder if you could share kind of that story or that journey.

Yeah, things seem to be going well in my life for several decades for the most part, and then around age forty or so, health wise, things just kind of seemed to fall apart little by little and then all at once. As the saying goes, it started with some vocal challenges. It's not having volume or stamina for speaking, which is hard as I was a professor and a therapist at the time. And then eventually it was just profound fatigue, horrible insomnia, and a lot of just kind of weird, non specific symptoms that were never fully explained by all the doctors and specialists that I went to, and things like extreme sensitivity to heat or cold. All kinds of stuff had just never been part of my experience. I'd always been active, running and going to the gym several times a week, doing triathlons, So I mean it just laid me low in so many ways, and eventually I was extremely stressed because I was having to cut back on my work in a major way and it was leading to financial problems, and I wound up depressed, and I just I had this sense over and over that I've come to the end of myself. I've just come to the end of myself. I felt suicidal a lot of the time. And then I had a background in mindfulness around that time, and I used it some in my clinical practice, which is mostly cognitive and behavioral, so focusing more on traditional ways of changing our thoughts and our actions. But I had never had an experience like this where I realized, in this particular moment one evening, on the couch after dinner, feeling completely done, I realized that the end of myself was the beginning of something else. It seems so obvious now, but you know there's obvious insights when you experience them in a real way, when they hit you in the gut, You're just like, oh my god, I've heard this a thousand times, but I've never known it in the way that I know it in this moment. And that was really kind of the seed for the book. Certainly, but for so much a kind of awareness and awakening that continues, that realization that not only is the end of my kind of small self ego not the end, but it sort of has to end in a way for what's next or what's possible to begin. And so that really was kind of the outgrowth of everything that came from there.

Yeah, things seem to be going well in my life for several decades for the most part, and then around age forty or so, health wise, things just kind of seemed to fall apart little by little and then all at once. As the saying goes, it started with some vocal challenges. It's not having volume or stamina for speaking, which is hard as I was a professor and a therapist at the time. And then eventually it was just profound fatigue, horrible insomnia, and a lot of just kind of weird, non specific symptoms that were never fully explained by all the doctors and specialists that I went to, and things like extreme sensitivity to heat or cold. All kinds of stuff had just never been part of my experience. I'd always been active, running and going to the gym several times a week, doing triathlons, So I mean it just laid me low in so many ways, and eventually I was extremely stressed because I was having to cut back on my work in a major way and it was leading to financial problems, and I wound up depressed, and I just I had this sense over and over that I've come to the end of myself. I've just come to the end of myself. I felt suicidal a lot of the time. And then I had a background in mindfulness around that time, and I used it some in my clinical practice, which is mostly cognitive and behavioral, so focusing more on traditional ways of changing our thoughts and our actions. But I had never had an experience like this where I realized, in this particular moment one evening, on the couch after dinner, feeling completely done, I realized that the end of myself was the beginning of something else. It seems so obvious now, but you know there's obvious insights when you experience them in a real way, when they hit you in the gut, You're just like, oh my god, I've heard this a thousand times, but I've never known it in the way that I know it in this moment. And that was really kind of the seed for the book. Certainly, but for so much a kind of awareness and awakening that continues, that realization that not only is the end of my kind of small self ego not the end, but it sort of has to end in a way for what's next or what's possible to begin. And so that really was kind of the outgrowth of everything that came from there.

So something I'm going to be doing a little more often is ask you, the listener, to reflect on what you're here. We strongly believe that knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. So before we move on, I'd like to ask you what's coming up for you as you listen to this. Are there any things you're currently doing that or feeding your bad wolf that might make sense to remove, or any things you could do to feed your good wolf that you're not currently doing. So, if you have the headspace for it, I'd love if you could just pause for a second and ask yourself, what's one thing I could do today or tonight to feed my good wolf? Whatever your thing is. A really useful strategy can be having something external, a prompt or a friend, or a tool that regularly nudges you back towards awareness and intentionality. For the past year, I've been sending little Good Wolf reminders to some of my friends and community members, just quick, little SMS messages two times per week that give them a little bit of wisdom and remind them to pause for a second and come off autopilot. If you want, I can send them to you too. I do it totally fore and people seem to really love them. Just drop your information at one youfeed dot net slash sms and I can send them to you. It's totally free, and if you end up not liking the little reminders, you can easily opt out. That's one you feed dot net slash sms. And now back to the episode. One of the things I think is interesting is you tell that story in the book. Is this idea that you felt a source of shame right that you were a psychologist. Yes, and you were battling many of the same issues you've helped others to overcome.

So something I'm going to be doing a little more often is ask you, the listener, to reflect on what you're here. We strongly believe that knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. So before we move on, I'd like to ask you what's coming up for you as you listen to this. Are there any things you're currently doing that or feeding your bad wolf that might make sense to remove, or any things you could do to feed your good wolf that you're not currently doing. So, if you have the headspace for it, I'd love if you could just pause for a second and ask yourself, what's one thing I could do today or tonight to feed my good wolf? Whatever your thing is. A really useful strategy can be having something external, a prompt or a friend, or a tool that regularly nudges you back towards awareness and intentionality. For the past year, I've been sending little Good Wolf reminders to some of my friends and community members, just quick, little SMS messages two times per week that give them a little bit of wisdom and remind them to pause for a second and come off autopilot. If you want, I can send them to you too. I do it totally fore and people seem to really love them. Just drop your information at one youfeed dot net slash sms and I can send them to you. It's totally free, and if you end up not liking the little reminders, you can easily opt out. That's one you feed dot net slash sms. And now back to the episode. One of the things I think is interesting is you tell that story in the book. Is this idea that you felt a source of shame right that you were a psychologist. Yes, and you were battling many of the same issues you've helped others to overcome.

Right.

Right.

You also say, you know, I had a blind spot for my own needs, And I think that's an occupational hazard of being a psychologist or a teacher, or a thought leader or teaching spiritual workshops like I do, or any of that stuff. Is that if we're not careful, we can feel like we shouldn't suffer or struggle, and if we do, we can't talk about that, right, and which, of course, as we all know, not talking about what's going on is a sure way to almost reinforce it.

You also say, you know, I had a blind spot for my own needs, And I think that's an occupational hazard of being a psychologist or a teacher, or a thought leader or teaching spiritual workshops like I do, or any of that stuff. Is that if we're not careful, we can feel like we shouldn't suffer or struggle, and if we do, we can't talk about that, right, and which, of course, as we all know, not talking about what's going on is a sure way to almost reinforce it.

Yeah, it's funny, Eric, because I had an assumption for a long time that I couldn't reveal those things about myself, you know, that I couldn't that I had to be seen or had to present myself in a certain way, as if because of the work that I do or the things that I write and talk about, that I should be able to transcend these things or not experience them. Which is I mean, I think it's arrogant on the one hand, yep. And also I don't think people are really under the illusion that therapists or other people who talk about or write about certain helpful practices somehow like have it all figured out. I sort of laugh to myself these days when I'll hear someone, you know, who's talking about I don't know, maybe a yoga instructor or a meditation teacher saying something like, even I struggle with this, what do you mean even I as opposed to not struggling like so. On the contrary, it seems like the people who have insights and realize things that are helpful to other people probably have to have experienced and struggle with those things themselves. And so it's almost like, I'm I don't expect someone who has insights to not struggle. I expect them maybe to be more messed up in a way than the average person because they need those things, They need the insights that they've come to and then share with others. I know it's true for me.

Yeah, it's funny, Eric, because I had an assumption for a long time that I couldn't reveal those things about myself, you know, that I couldn't that I had to be seen or had to present myself in a certain way, as if because of the work that I do or the things that I write and talk about, that I should be able to transcend these things or not experience them. Which is I mean, I think it's arrogant on the one hand, yep. And also I don't think people are really under the illusion that therapists or other people who talk about or write about certain helpful practices somehow like have it all figured out. I sort of laugh to myself these days when I'll hear someone, you know, who's talking about I don't know, maybe a yoga instructor or a meditation teacher saying something like, even I struggle with this, what do you mean even I as opposed to not struggling like so. On the contrary, it seems like the people who have insights and realize things that are helpful to other people probably have to have experienced and struggle with those things themselves. And so it's almost like, I'm I don't expect someone who has insights to not struggle. I expect them maybe to be more messed up in a way than the average person because they need those things, They need the insights that they've come to and then share with others. I know it's true for me.

Yeah, I mean, I think the thing for me is I'm always very open and vulnerable about my backstory. It's harder to be like right this very second, or right this week, I've been battling terrible depression or but I try really hard to talk about it. I mean, I've talked about on this show in a number of recent episodes. I've been going through a difficult time in a number of ways, and it feels important to the work itself, like it continues to rein force like, oh yeah, difficulty and wise response to difficulty, they're both there.

Yeah, I mean, I think the thing for me is I'm always very open and vulnerable about my backstory. It's harder to be like right this very second, or right this week, I've been battling terrible depression or but I try really hard to talk about it. I mean, I've talked about on this show in a number of recent episodes. I've been going through a difficult time in a number of ways, and it feels important to the work itself, like it continues to rein force like, oh yeah, difficulty and wise response to difficulty, they're both there.

Yeah, man, Eric, that is that hit me hard because you're so right. It's so easy to say I have struggled with these things in the past, and the truth is, as we're recording this, yesterday was like right back to how I was that experience I described of just being done. The best I can understand it. It was a stressful day with some good things but some challenging things going on. My nervous system got kind of worked up in a way that used to be fine. I just power through, but now I'm at a point of my health and my life when I need to recover from those things. Surprise, and I didn't. I just kept going like, Okay, I need to do this, I need to do this, and then I'll rest. But by the end of the night, I was just I was so disheartened and physically done. And then I ended up being when our kids went to bed, I was just sobbing to my wife's saying, I just I can't believe I'm back here. And then this was last night, so which I guess technically is also in the past, but.

Yeah, man, Eric, that is that hit me hard because you're so right. It's so easy to say I have struggled with these things in the past, and the truth is, as we're recording this, yesterday was like right back to how I was that experience I described of just being done. The best I can understand it. It was a stressful day with some good things but some challenging things going on. My nervous system got kind of worked up in a way that used to be fine. I just power through, but now I'm at a point of my health and my life when I need to recover from those things. Surprise, and I didn't. I just kept going like, Okay, I need to do this, I need to do this, and then I'll rest. But by the end of the night, I was just I was so disheartened and physically done. And then I ended up being when our kids went to bed, I was just sobbing to my wife's saying, I just I can't believe I'm back here. And then this was last night, so which I guess technically is also in the past, but.

It's close enough for what we're describing. Yeah, what you talked about in the very beginning, right, people want help with anxiety, so it's just gone get rid of it, you know. I think people turn to meditation, mindfulness, all sorts of spiritual solutions, because what we want is the end of the suffering, and you know, my experience is that that's not the way it is. Right, we can dramatically reduce the amount that we suffer, Like my guess is with a little bit of perspective like you have now, you can look at last night and just be like, well, okay, I was way overtired. And you know, I don't need to add up to a ton of layers of meaning to this. I can just look at it and be like, all right, I was exhausted, you know. And I've learned how much being really physically tired to me feels like deep depression. Like often can't tell the two apart. And so I've learned to just be like the end of the day, if I'm feeling what feels like kind of blue, to be like, well, okay, let's not get all worked up about things. Let's just go to bed and see how things are in the morning. So I think we can reduce our suffering around things, but painful events continue to happen. We get tired, we get discouraged, we get all the things that humans get. I view this quote a lot on the show because it means a lot to me. And I was talking with the spiritual teacher Adi Ashanti, and he once said that a lot of awakening is freedom to not freedom from meaning freedom to feel it all, knowing that I'm okay versus freedom from feeling things.

It's close enough for what we're describing. Yeah, what you talked about in the very beginning, right, people want help with anxiety, so it's just gone get rid of it, you know. I think people turn to meditation, mindfulness, all sorts of spiritual solutions, because what we want is the end of the suffering, and you know, my experience is that that's not the way it is. Right, we can dramatically reduce the amount that we suffer, Like my guess is with a little bit of perspective like you have now, you can look at last night and just be like, well, okay, I was way overtired. And you know, I don't need to add up to a ton of layers of meaning to this. I can just look at it and be like, all right, I was exhausted, you know. And I've learned how much being really physically tired to me feels like deep depression. Like often can't tell the two apart. And so I've learned to just be like the end of the day, if I'm feeling what feels like kind of blue, to be like, well, okay, let's not get all worked up about things. Let's just go to bed and see how things are in the morning. So I think we can reduce our suffering around things, but painful events continue to happen. We get tired, we get discouraged, we get all the things that humans get. I view this quote a lot on the show because it means a lot to me. And I was talking with the spiritual teacher Adi Ashanti, and he once said that a lot of awakening is freedom to not freedom from meaning freedom to feel it all, knowing that I'm okay versus freedom from feeling things.

Yes, I love that, and I love Adi Ashanti. Wow. I listened to some of his series, a couple of them on the Waking Up podcast and interviews with him, And listen to your first part of your interview, Yeah, with him. I'm looking forward to the second part, the more recent ones. Yeah. That is such a crucial difference, and I think it's really central to what I've moved toward. Am I thinking, you know, from a more kind of fixing Western medicine type of approach with cognitive behavioral therapy, which is very much about here your symptoms, here's an evidence based treatment. Let's tackle those problems and fix those symptoms, which is great, and at the same time, it only covers so much, right, I Mean, there's almost always something left even after the best treatment. And also there's just that deeper level of contentment that we can find when we don't make fixing the only way to well being.

Yes, I love that, and I love Adi Ashanti. Wow. I listened to some of his series, a couple of them on the Waking Up podcast and interviews with him, And listen to your first part of your interview, Yeah, with him. I'm looking forward to the second part, the more recent ones. Yeah. That is such a crucial difference, and I think it's really central to what I've moved toward. Am I thinking, you know, from a more kind of fixing Western medicine type of approach with cognitive behavioral therapy, which is very much about here your symptoms, here's an evidence based treatment. Let's tackle those problems and fix those symptoms, which is great, and at the same time, it only covers so much, right, I Mean, there's almost always something left even after the best treatment. And also there's just that deeper level of contentment that we can find when we don't make fixing the only way to well being.

You know, Yeah, it's the human condition. I don't think there's an escape for it, nor would I want an escape from it, exactly right. I mean there are moments I'm like, well, okay, human condition, you can go f off, right, like I've had enough, but right, But in general, I'd love to spend a little bit of time talking about CBT in sort of its classical way, in some of the ways that you understand it, because it is a really powerful tool for working with our thoughts, and our thoughts are often the source of a great deal of our suffering and pain. So can you give people who aren't really familiar with that term CBT and understanding of what are we generally talking about when we talk about cognitive behavioral therapy.

You know, Yeah, it's the human condition. I don't think there's an escape for it, nor would I want an escape from it, exactly right. I mean there are moments I'm like, well, okay, human condition, you can go f off, right, like I've had enough, but right, But in general, I'd love to spend a little bit of time talking about CBT in sort of its classical way, in some of the ways that you understand it, because it is a really powerful tool for working with our thoughts, and our thoughts are often the source of a great deal of our suffering and pain. So can you give people who aren't really familiar with that term CBT and understanding of what are we generally talking about when we talk about cognitive behavioral therapy.

Right, Yeah. And one of the things that I really appreciate about a lot of sort of Eastern spiritual teachers is their recognition of the importance of working with thoughts, like even you know, in your interview with Adyashanti, you mentioned something about you're not kind of trying to leap over these unhelpful beliefs that we have by you know, some spiritual platitude that somehow just you know, kind of glosses over them. The backbone of cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT is the realization that's been realized in a lot of traditions, you know, in many different places of the world and many millennia, that our perspective has a lot to do with how we experience life. So it's not so much the things that happened to us that shape our experience, but it's our interpretation to them. Simple example that's often given is you walk by a friend across the street, you wave to them, they don't respond. What does that mean? Well, your reaction to that has everything to do with how you interpret their non response. You know, you think like, well, my god, they just blew me off. You're probably gonna feel angry hurt. Or if you think, huh, they didn't see me, it's like it's kind of a non event in your day. Maybe you're slightly disappointed. So that shift can be really helpful in getting us out of those stock points when we're telling ourselves all these stories about like well, this is why my spouse is acting this way, and this is what my life means. And once you recognize that those are stories, then we have some flexibility to question are they actually true, and if not, we can think about what's a more useful alternative. Maybe they're not being a jerk, maybe they just were looking at their phone or something. So they are all kinds of applications. But that's sort of the backbone of the cognitive part, and the behavioral part is kind of in parallel to that. Our actions obviously feedback into our emotions, feedback into our thoughts and beliefs, and so we'll tend to see and CBT as a triangle with let's say, thoughts at the top, feelings one of the lower corners, and actions on the other, and they're all interrelated and each one affects the other two.

Right, Yeah. And one of the things that I really appreciate about a lot of sort of Eastern spiritual teachers is their recognition of the importance of working with thoughts, like even you know, in your interview with Adyashanti, you mentioned something about you're not kind of trying to leap over these unhelpful beliefs that we have by you know, some spiritual platitude that somehow just you know, kind of glosses over them. The backbone of cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT is the realization that's been realized in a lot of traditions, you know, in many different places of the world and many millennia, that our perspective has a lot to do with how we experience life. So it's not so much the things that happened to us that shape our experience, but it's our interpretation to them. Simple example that's often given is you walk by a friend across the street, you wave to them, they don't respond. What does that mean? Well, your reaction to that has everything to do with how you interpret their non response. You know, you think like, well, my god, they just blew me off. You're probably gonna feel angry hurt. Or if you think, huh, they didn't see me, it's like it's kind of a non event in your day. Maybe you're slightly disappointed. So that shift can be really helpful in getting us out of those stock points when we're telling ourselves all these stories about like well, this is why my spouse is acting this way, and this is what my life means. And once you recognize that those are stories, then we have some flexibility to question are they actually true, and if not, we can think about what's a more useful alternative. Maybe they're not being a jerk, maybe they just were looking at their phone or something. So they are all kinds of applications. But that's sort of the backbone of the cognitive part, and the behavioral part is kind of in parallel to that. Our actions obviously feedback into our emotions, feedback into our thoughts and beliefs, and so we'll tend to see and CBT as a triangle with let's say, thoughts at the top, feelings one of the lower corners, and actions on the other, and they're all interrelated and each one affects the other two.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the key insight, right, is that you know I used to kind of wonder do feelings cause thoughts or thoughts cause feelings or you know, and you suddenly realize after a little while, like it's completely bidirectional. I even sometimes start to wonder whether to what degree are they separate things? We talk about them as if they're separate, but they always co arise, right, you know, you never get one without the other. Very rarely do you have, you know, one without the other. But it's not really a key point. So with CBT, what you're trying to do is you RECOGNI that we are meaning making machines. We make meaning out of everything that occurs, and that some meanings are more close to reality and empowering than others.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the key insight, right, is that you know I used to kind of wonder do feelings cause thoughts or thoughts cause feelings or you know, and you suddenly realize after a little while, like it's completely bidirectional. I even sometimes start to wonder whether to what degree are they separate things? We talk about them as if they're separate, but they always co arise, right, you know, you never get one without the other. Very rarely do you have, you know, one without the other. But it's not really a key point. So with CBT, what you're trying to do is you RECOGNI that we are meaning making machines. We make meaning out of everything that occurs, and that some meanings are more close to reality and empowering than others.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And we tend to fall into certain patterns of unhelpful thoughts, you know, like mine might be along the lines of I'm not doing a good enough job. I have to do better. This person is criticizing me. Someone else's might be more about being like whether or not they're loved, whether people like them, maybe they're unlovable I think of it. Sometimes it's like the songs or the types of songs that our mind is playing quote unquote songs. It's like listening to a radio station, you know, if you if you hear a few jazz songs, you're like, ah, all right, this is a jazz station, you know, or classical or pop or whatever. So we can figure out, you know, what are our deepest assumptions based on the kind of moment to moment thoughts that we're getting. If there are thoughts around failure and maybe I have this deep seated what we call a core belief that I'm a failure or I'm going to fail, or if I see danger everywhere, maybe I have this core belief that the world is extremely dangerous. When you ask your question in the beginning about you know, my interpretation or what the parable says to me, I've been interested for a while and I'm really kind of focused on that area now of understanding those unhelpful core beliefs and starting to shift them in ways that are actually effective. Again, not to overwrite the old ones, but to develop new, competing ones.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And we tend to fall into certain patterns of unhelpful thoughts, you know, like mine might be along the lines of I'm not doing a good enough job. I have to do better. This person is criticizing me. Someone else's might be more about being like whether or not they're loved, whether people like them, maybe they're unlovable I think of it. Sometimes it's like the songs or the types of songs that our mind is playing quote unquote songs. It's like listening to a radio station, you know, if you if you hear a few jazz songs, you're like, ah, all right, this is a jazz station, you know, or classical or pop or whatever. So we can figure out, you know, what are our deepest assumptions based on the kind of moment to moment thoughts that we're getting. If there are thoughts around failure and maybe I have this deep seated what we call a core belief that I'm a failure or I'm going to fail, or if I see danger everywhere, maybe I have this core belief that the world is extremely dangerous. When you ask your question in the beginning about you know, my interpretation or what the parable says to me, I've been interested for a while and I'm really kind of focused on that area now of understanding those unhelpful core beliefs and starting to shift them in ways that are actually effective. Again, not to overwrite the old ones, but to develop new, competing ones.

Yeah, because you know my experience of trying to work with my thoughts. The first thing I know is that using some sort of structured approach is really helpful. It's very slippery inside here, right, and so some set of questions or you know, ways of working through it is very helpful. And the second thing that anybody that tries that will recognize is that some things, even though on some level you're like, well that's probably not exactly true, but good lord, does it feel like it is. And no matter what I tell myself, I can't shake that sense of like I'm a failure. Well what does that even mean? I mean, what does it to succeed, what does it to fail? Like all these ways of questioning it are good, and yet often they don't change. There's something else that's more persistent. And is that what you're saying is sort of these core beliefs they're even a layer two underthought that they're so assumed and so core that we don't even know how to question those.

Yeah, because you know my experience of trying to work with my thoughts. The first thing I know is that using some sort of structured approach is really helpful. It's very slippery inside here, right, and so some set of questions or you know, ways of working through it is very helpful. And the second thing that anybody that tries that will recognize is that some things, even though on some level you're like, well that's probably not exactly true, but good lord, does it feel like it is. And no matter what I tell myself, I can't shake that sense of like I'm a failure. Well what does that even mean? I mean, what does it to succeed, what does it to fail? Like all these ways of questioning it are good, and yet often they don't change. There's something else that's more persistent. And is that what you're saying is sort of these core beliefs they're even a layer two underthought that they're so assumed and so core that we don't even know how to question those.

Yes, yeah, I think that's right. I mean, for some people it feels like the more surface level thoughts are also really hard to you know, it's that distinction you describe so well that like, I know on some level it's not true, but darn if it doesn't just feel exactly true.

Yes, yeah, I think that's right. I mean, for some people it feels like the more surface level thoughts are also really hard to you know, it's that distinction you describe so well that like, I know on some level it's not true, but darn if it doesn't just feel exactly true.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So yeah, that's maybe one of the biggest challenges I think for CBT is what about those thoughts? Yeah, And you know, often through repetition or deeper exploration, maybe getting out the thought beneath the thought. Maybe the initial thought is just one level and there's something behind that, like like I'm afraid that I'm going to be late for work. I'm probably not gonna be late, won't be a big deal, But beneath that there's a meaning. What would it mean if you relate to work, Well, it would mean that I'm not a good employee, So you get to something that's actually driving the person's sense of like it's not going to be okay to be late. On the other hand, I think we do reach a point. I mean, whether just in our day to day lives or you know, often in therapy work I've done where we've worked through everything the person sees, yes, okay, I know it doesn't make any sense. Yes, if a friend we're in exactly my position, I would tell them, you know what you're telling me, and I would think they should believe it. I can't believe it for myself. That I think that's where more of a mindfulness approach can be so helpful, is to see the thoughts in a more general way as not really signifying what we think they do. We don't have to necessarily wrangle with them anymore, you know, sanitize our thoughts yeah, and say like, yeah, that's my mind does all right, I'm going to move on.

So yeah, that's maybe one of the biggest challenges I think for CBT is what about those thoughts? Yeah, And you know, often through repetition or deeper exploration, maybe getting out the thought beneath the thought. Maybe the initial thought is just one level and there's something behind that, like like I'm afraid that I'm going to be late for work. I'm probably not gonna be late, won't be a big deal, But beneath that there's a meaning. What would it mean if you relate to work, Well, it would mean that I'm not a good employee, So you get to something that's actually driving the person's sense of like it's not going to be okay to be late. On the other hand, I think we do reach a point. I mean, whether just in our day to day lives or you know, often in therapy work I've done where we've worked through everything the person sees, yes, okay, I know it doesn't make any sense. Yes, if a friend we're in exactly my position, I would tell them, you know what you're telling me, and I would think they should believe it. I can't believe it for myself. That I think that's where more of a mindfulness approach can be so helpful, is to see the thoughts in a more general way as not really signifying what we think they do. We don't have to necessarily wrangle with them anymore, you know, sanitize our thoughts yeah, and say like, yeah, that's my mind does all right, I'm going to move on.

Yeah. And this gets to a question I often talk to people about and try and get at a little bit more. And I don't think there's a clear answer, but it's kind of when to do which of those things right? Because they are similar but they're different.

Yeah. And this gets to a question I often talk to people about and try and get at a little bit more. And I don't think there's a clear answer, but it's kind of when to do which of those things right? Because they are similar but they're different.

Right.

Right.

One is assuming our thoughts are more or less valid and we're going to try and change them into something that's more useful, and there's absolutely time and place for that, and as you said, there are times that those don't budge. So then you're into more of a mindfulness based approach or more of an acceptance of commitment therapy type approach, where one of the core ideas there is like some of those thoughts may just not go away, and they may just keep going. I love the analogy I think Steven C. Hayes uses about like they're like a radio station in my neighbor's apartment. Like I can't turn it off. Yeah, you know, it's not my radio. I can't turn it off. But I can focus on other things. Or I can be like, all right, I'm just gonna let it be there. I'm just not gonna make a big deal out of it. And it always seems to me that both those approaches seem like they have their time and place, and you know, for me, it's often a matter of as I'm dealing with my own emotions, right, or we're working with somebody, you know, a coaching client or whatever, and we're looking at it is like which of those approaches are going to be more useful when right?

One is assuming our thoughts are more or less valid and we're going to try and change them into something that's more useful, and there's absolutely time and place for that, and as you said, there are times that those don't budge. So then you're into more of a mindfulness based approach or more of an acceptance of commitment therapy type approach, where one of the core ideas there is like some of those thoughts may just not go away, and they may just keep going. I love the analogy I think Steven C. Hayes uses about like they're like a radio station in my neighbor's apartment. Like I can't turn it off. Yeah, you know, it's not my radio. I can't turn it off. But I can focus on other things. Or I can be like, all right, I'm just gonna let it be there. I'm just not gonna make a big deal out of it. And it always seems to me that both those approaches seem like they have their time and place, and you know, for me, it's often a matter of as I'm dealing with my own emotions, right, or we're working with somebody, you know, a coaching client or whatever, and we're looking at it is like which of those approaches are going to be more useful when right?

Yeah, yeah, And there's no hard and fast rules you probably suspect, But as a rule of thumb, I think it's usually not best to kind of what's the expression. I mean, it's like leapfrogging in a way like a bypass, like a spiritual bypass kind of thing, like Okay, well, I know I'm I'm supposed to get so I'm just gonna say that I'm there and all as well. Usually what ends up happening is it just comes back around because it hasn't been dealt with, hasn't really been acknowledged or addressed or worked through as much as it can be. And then over time, as we sort of see our patterns, and often a clue is that the thoughts maybe start to lose so much of their charge, you know, like it doesn't feel like the neighbor's music is blaring. It feels more like it's still there. It's an annoyance. I could live my life with it. So I think that's when we can shift more to a kind of like, all right, these thoughts come and go, there they are again, yeap anyway, what am I doing. I'm just going to go back to what I'm doing.

Yeah, yeah, And there's no hard and fast rules you probably suspect, But as a rule of thumb, I think it's usually not best to kind of what's the expression. I mean, it's like leapfrogging in a way like a bypass, like a spiritual bypass kind of thing, like Okay, well, I know I'm I'm supposed to get so I'm just gonna say that I'm there and all as well. Usually what ends up happening is it just comes back around because it hasn't been dealt with, hasn't really been acknowledged or addressed or worked through as much as it can be. And then over time, as we sort of see our patterns, and often a clue is that the thoughts maybe start to lose so much of their charge, you know, like it doesn't feel like the neighbor's music is blaring. It feels more like it's still there. It's an annoyance. I could live my life with it. So I think that's when we can shift more to a kind of like, all right, these thoughts come and go, there they are again, yeap anyway, what am I doing. I'm just going to go back to what I'm doing.

On one level, I think, like you said, not leapfrogging. So for me, what I've sort of realized and again that this isn't always true, but it's okay to start by agnowl edging the emotion that's tied with the thoughts instead of trying to get past that. Acknowledge the emotion and what's happening, because that tends to be my way is I'll just try and think my way out of it, and so, you know, acknowledge the emotion and then I think it's useful for me to try and you know, look at the thoughts and question them. The classic example that's used in a lot of Buddhist stories is you know, you walk outside and you think you see a snake, and you freak the f out, you know, and then you look a little bit closer in the moonlight, and you're like, oh, it's a coil of rope. Right in that exact moment, it's all over. And now our thoughts aren't usually that clean and easy, but it does point to if you can be like, oh, it's not what I thought it was at all the situation disappears. You know, for me, there's a point of like, can we do that level analysis to start, just so that I'm not spending time listening to the radio station in my neighbor's apartment when I could simply flip the switch and turn it off. Yeah, you know, but again, it's all so nuanced, and I think people are differ I think some people need a different approach at a different time, in a different way. But I do love CBT in its ability to give that process of questioning in my thoughts some degree of structure and direction. Yeah.

On one level, I think, like you said, not leapfrogging. So for me, what I've sort of realized and again that this isn't always true, but it's okay to start by agnowl edging the emotion that's tied with the thoughts instead of trying to get past that. Acknowledge the emotion and what's happening, because that tends to be my way is I'll just try and think my way out of it, and so, you know, acknowledge the emotion and then I think it's useful for me to try and you know, look at the thoughts and question them. The classic example that's used in a lot of Buddhist stories is you know, you walk outside and you think you see a snake, and you freak the f out, you know, and then you look a little bit closer in the moonlight, and you're like, oh, it's a coil of rope. Right in that exact moment, it's all over. And now our thoughts aren't usually that clean and easy, but it does point to if you can be like, oh, it's not what I thought it was at all the situation disappears. You know, for me, there's a point of like, can we do that level analysis to start, just so that I'm not spending time listening to the radio station in my neighbor's apartment when I could simply flip the switch and turn it off. Yeah, you know, but again, it's all so nuanced, and I think people are differ I think some people need a different approach at a different time, in a different way. But I do love CBT in its ability to give that process of questioning in my thoughts some degree of structure and direction. Yeah.

Yeah, I think the structure and direction I think really the added benefit that CBT added to things like you know, you read the stoics and it's basically CBT, but that structure, I think is such a useful addition. You know, a metaphor that I like is removing snow. So let's say you know you're snowed in, and let's say that's that represents unhelpful thoughts. One way to get rid of that problem is, you know, to go out with your hands and just start, you know, pushing the snow out of the way. I think of that as without any specific tools other than your hands. Having a snow shovel I think of like CBT much more effective. You have more leverage, it's less frustrating, and it can work really well. But I think that but ultimately, if we can, we can get to a point where we don't have to go through like, Okay, this thought, I'm working through it. You know, it's oh, this means that. Okay, here's an alternative again, which can be great, like a snowshovel, but there's something else which is just recognizing like, oh, it's all thoughts, and that I think of as like the spring snow, you know, and it just it thaws and that's it. You don't have to go through one by one and I'm shoveling myself out and it's just like, oh, that's it.

Yeah, I think the structure and direction I think really the added benefit that CBT added to things like you know, you read the stoics and it's basically CBT, but that structure, I think is such a useful addition. You know, a metaphor that I like is removing snow. So let's say you know you're snowed in, and let's say that's that represents unhelpful thoughts. One way to get rid of that problem is, you know, to go out with your hands and just start, you know, pushing the snow out of the way. I think of that as without any specific tools other than your hands. Having a snow shovel I think of like CBT much more effective. You have more leverage, it's less frustrating, and it can work really well. But I think that but ultimately, if we can, we can get to a point where we don't have to go through like, Okay, this thought, I'm working through it. You know, it's oh, this means that. Okay, here's an alternative again, which can be great, like a snowshovel, but there's something else which is just recognizing like, oh, it's all thoughts, and that I think of as like the spring snow, you know, and it just it thaws and that's it. You don't have to go through one by one and I'm shoveling myself out and it's just like, oh, that's it.

That's a great analogy actually, And you know, it's been interesting to me when I've had some relatively profound spiritual experiences that has been what it's been like. It's been like the snow just all melted, right, you know, and there's no need to mess with it. But given that I can't always make the sun come out to the same degree of warmth, you know, sometimes I do need the snowshovel to kind of like all right, we got to get a little relief in it.

That's a great analogy actually, And you know, it's been interesting to me when I've had some relatively profound spiritual experiences that has been what it's been like. It's been like the snow just all melted, right, you know, and there's no need to mess with it. But given that I can't always make the sun come out to the same degree of warmth, you know, sometimes I do need the snowshovel to kind of like all right, we got to get a little relief in it.

Yeah. Yeah, it makes me think of the shift metaphor, where was the wind isn't always blowing, So if you have a sailboat, it's also nice to have a motor. Yeah, maybe the motor there is the CBT techniques. I have to say though, I just probably a couple of days ago, I had this experience and it was so it stood out so much because I could see both levels so clearly. I was stuck in the drama in my head around the story my mind was concocting about had to do with me and my wife and like what she was doing or like my relationship with her and the family, and you know, for a few moments it all just felt true, just like yeah, that's how it is. I need to work on that and change something. And then I had this momentere I was like, oh, oh wait a minute, so that's a story I'm telling. And then I saw just like the whole thing is story, Like I don't even have to go through and be like, well, maybe she's not actually doing that and maybe I'm doing this thing. I was just like, oh wait, a second. This is all a fabrication, Like I've constructed this narrative that feels like this is the way it's happening. I was like, or maybe not, none of that actually exists, and that felt like the spring sun. That was just like, oh oh freedom, thank god.

Yeah. Yeah, it makes me think of the shift metaphor, where was the wind isn't always blowing, So if you have a sailboat, it's also nice to have a motor. Yeah, maybe the motor there is the CBT techniques. I have to say though, I just probably a couple of days ago, I had this experience and it was so it stood out so much because I could see both levels so clearly. I was stuck in the drama in my head around the story my mind was concocting about had to do with me and my wife and like what she was doing or like my relationship with her and the family, and you know, for a few moments it all just felt true, just like yeah, that's how it is. I need to work on that and change something. And then I had this momentere I was like, oh, oh wait a minute, so that's a story I'm telling. And then I saw just like the whole thing is story, Like I don't even have to go through and be like, well, maybe she's not actually doing that and maybe I'm doing this thing. I was just like, oh wait, a second. This is all a fabrication, Like I've constructed this narrative that feels like this is the way it's happening. I was like, or maybe not, none of that actually exists, and that felt like the spring sun. That was just like, oh oh freedom, thank god.

So listener, consider this. You're halfway through the episode. Integration reminder. Remember knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. It can be transformative to take a minute to synthesize information rather than just ingesting it in a detached way. So let's collectively take a moment to pause and reflect. What's your one big insight so far and how can you put it into practice in your life? Seriously, just take a second, pause the audio and reflect. It can be so powerful to have these reminders to stop and be present, can't it. If you want to keep this momentum going that you built with this little exercise, i'd encourage you to get on our Good Wolf Reminders SMS list. I'll shoot you two texts a week with insightful little prompts wisdom from podcast guests. They are a nice little nudge to stop and be present in your life, and they're a helpful way to not get lost in the busyness and forget what is important. You can join at oneufeed dot net slash sms and if you don't like them, you can get off a list really easily. So far, there are over one and seventy two others from the one you feed community on the list, and we'd love to welcome you as well, so head on over to one you feed dot net slash sms and let's feed our good wolves together. As you were saying that, I was thinking, like, there's that freedom, and then there is you know, the actual situation itself, right, like there may be things with you and your wife that you need to talk about or work through, which is why I always sort of think of like thoughts, behaviors, actions, and then the situation itself actually matters, right, you know, certain spiritual traditions will say that you know, all of it is constructed and made up and that none of it's real and that everything is interpreting. And then there's you know, the more normal western side of things says like what's happening out there is what's most important, And the phrase I've always thought things like most helpful sort of like a co creation. Right, it's not one or the other. Right, they both are there. You know. Yes, on one level, I am making up all the meaning here, and on another level, there's actual real things that are happening, you know, that impact my well being in my life, my socioeconomic state, my race, my I mean, all kinds of things that are a co creation, which is sometimes where I feel like spiritual traditions, if they're not careful, become calloused, right, they become like, oh, it's just all your interpretation of it. It's just your interpretation, which seems kind of uncaring to the realities that people face in the world. And yet our realities aren't the only thing, you know, because we see people like Victor Frankel. So we all love Victor Frankel because you see, even in the midst of terrible conditions, he was able to have some degree of choosing his reaction. And you know, it's that co creation. And I think that's what you're speaking to.

So listener, consider this. You're halfway through the episode. Integration reminder. Remember knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. It can be transformative to take a minute to synthesize information rather than just ingesting it in a detached way. So let's collectively take a moment to pause and reflect. What's your one big insight so far and how can you put it into practice in your life? Seriously, just take a second, pause the audio and reflect. It can be so powerful to have these reminders to stop and be present, can't it. If you want to keep this momentum going that you built with this little exercise, i'd encourage you to get on our Good Wolf Reminders SMS list. I'll shoot you two texts a week with insightful little prompts wisdom from podcast guests. They are a nice little nudge to stop and be present in your life, and they're a helpful way to not get lost in the busyness and forget what is important. You can join at oneufeed dot net slash sms and if you don't like them, you can get off a list really easily. So far, there are over one and seventy two others from the one you feed community on the list, and we'd love to welcome you as well, so head on over to one you feed dot net slash sms and let's feed our good wolves together. As you were saying that, I was thinking, like, there's that freedom, and then there is you know, the actual situation itself, right, like there may be things with you and your wife that you need to talk about or work through, which is why I always sort of think of like thoughts, behaviors, actions, and then the situation itself actually matters, right, you know, certain spiritual traditions will say that you know, all of it is constructed and made up and that none of it's real and that everything is interpreting. And then there's you know, the more normal western side of things says like what's happening out there is what's most important, And the phrase I've always thought things like most helpful sort of like a co creation. Right, it's not one or the other. Right, they both are there. You know. Yes, on one level, I am making up all the meaning here, and on another level, there's actual real things that are happening, you know, that impact my well being in my life, my socioeconomic state, my race, my I mean, all kinds of things that are a co creation, which is sometimes where I feel like spiritual traditions, if they're not careful, become calloused, right, they become like, oh, it's just all your interpretation of it. It's just your interpretation, which seems kind of uncaring to the realities that people face in the world. And yet our realities aren't the only thing, you know, because we see people like Victor Frankel. So we all love Victor Frankel because you see, even in the midst of terrible conditions, he was able to have some degree of choosing his reaction. And you know, it's that co creation. And I think that's what you're speaking to.

It is. Yes, I think that's brilliant because it is it is easy to fall on one side or the other. It's all material or it's all spiritual. And I like that you said uncaring and callous can become part of the spiritual approach, because I think it's important to call that out because certainly fell into this myself when I had this spiritual revelation. Then I was like, oh, it's all spiritual, and spiritual seemed like the ultimate goal, you know, to the exclusion of other types of things that are equally real and valid. And I don't remember exactly the story, but i'll paraphrase as best I can. You've probably heard it. There was a spiritual teacher who you know, talked to his students about how everything is illusion, and so this one student had really kind of internalized that belief. Okay, now I can see everything is illusion. So he's walking in the street one day and he sees the this elephant running down the street and he said, well, everything is illusion. So I'm going to stand in front of the elephant and I'll be fine because I can see, I've seen through, I've pierced the illusion. So he walks in the street and gets trampled by the elephant. So it goes back to you know, hobbles back to his teacher and he says, I thought you said everything was illusion, and his teacher said, yes, but I am also illusion, and what I told you is illusion. It's all illusion. It's funny. I do remember so clearly that sense I had of like, I just like, the more spiritual I can be, the more I can talk about spiritual things, the more kind of real it'll become. But I think it's just it ends up just being so thin.

It is. Yes, I think that's brilliant because it is it is easy to fall on one side or the other. It's all material or it's all spiritual. And I like that you said uncaring and callous can become part of the spiritual approach, because I think it's important to call that out because certainly fell into this myself when I had this spiritual revelation. Then I was like, oh, it's all spiritual, and spiritual seemed like the ultimate goal, you know, to the exclusion of other types of things that are equally real and valid. And I don't remember exactly the story, but i'll paraphrase as best I can. You've probably heard it. There was a spiritual teacher who you know, talked to his students about how everything is illusion, and so this one student had really kind of internalized that belief. Okay, now I can see everything is illusion. So he's walking in the street one day and he sees the this elephant running down the street and he said, well, everything is illusion. So I'm going to stand in front of the elephant and I'll be fine because I can see, I've seen through, I've pierced the illusion. So he walks in the street and gets trampled by the elephant. So it goes back to you know, hobbles back to his teacher and he says, I thought you said everything was illusion, and his teacher said, yes, but I am also illusion, and what I told you is illusion. It's all illusion. It's funny. I do remember so clearly that sense I had of like, I just like, the more spiritual I can be, the more I can talk about spiritual things, the more kind of real it'll become. But I think it's just it ends up just being so thin.

Yeah at that point, Yeah, as the least fun guy at a dinner party. Recently, I was at a dinner party where a couple people start talking about the law of attraction, and I just couldn't help myself. But I actually wanted to ask. They seemed like they were intelligent people, like I liked them, and I wanted to ask. I wanted to have this conversation because to me, I'm like, but if you follow the logic of that, that's kind of fucked up, isn't it. Like are the people in Gaza right now attracting that to themselves? You know, right now there's probably a child being well not probably, certainly absolutely a child being raped as we have this conversation, did they attract that? And then one person was like, well, it's not really attracting bad stuff, it's that you attract what you really want. I was like, are you telling me those people in Gaza aren't praying feverishly with a degree of prayer. You and I've never had that this go away, you know, So you know, that's that aspect of where I think it just gets callous if we're not really careful. And it's why I've always loved the tradition. I've been most invested in Zen because we talk about the relative and the absolute. I feel like I talk about this on like every third episode, but it's so fundamental to me because they say, like, you know, the relative is that it's all illusion. The absolute is I don't have money to buy food, or I have this chronic condition that makes me sick, you know, Like, and in Zen they say they're one and the same and they're also separate, and that holding both of those things and the ability to integrate them has become so fundamental to me. And having what seems like to me a mature spirituality, you know, a spirituality that takes into account the things of the world. It takes in compassion and kindness, and it also takes in a big view and it holds those tensions somehow.

Yeah at that point, Yeah, as the least fun guy at a dinner party. Recently, I was at a dinner party where a couple people start talking about the law of attraction, and I just couldn't help myself. But I actually wanted to ask. They seemed like they were intelligent people, like I liked them, and I wanted to ask. I wanted to have this conversation because to me, I'm like, but if you follow the logic of that, that's kind of fucked up, isn't it. Like are the people in Gaza right now attracting that to themselves? You know, right now there's probably a child being well not probably, certainly absolutely a child being raped as we have this conversation, did they attract that? And then one person was like, well, it's not really attracting bad stuff, it's that you attract what you really want. I was like, are you telling me those people in Gaza aren't praying feverishly with a degree of prayer. You and I've never had that this go away, you know, So you know, that's that aspect of where I think it just gets callous if we're not really careful. And it's why I've always loved the tradition. I've been most invested in Zen because we talk about the relative and the absolute. I feel like I talk about this on like every third episode, but it's so fundamental to me because they say, like, you know, the relative is that it's all illusion. The absolute is I don't have money to buy food, or I have this chronic condition that makes me sick, you know, Like, and in Zen they say they're one and the same and they're also separate, and that holding both of those things and the ability to integrate them has become so fundamental to me. And having what seems like to me a mature spirituality, you know, a spirituality that takes into account the things of the world. It takes in compassion and kindness, and it also takes in a big view and it holds those tensions somehow.

Yeah, and holding tension seems to be so much about what what awakening or whatever we want to call it is about. Yeah, you know that middle way which seems like it's so easy to fall on one side or the other.

Yeah, and holding tension seems to be so much about what what awakening or whatever we want to call it is about. Yeah, you know that middle way which seems like it's so easy to fall on one side or the other.

Yeah, we're discussing lots of weighty questions here, which I always love. But I want to get to your method in your book because I think it's very simple and also very powerful. So it's called think act B. Talk to me a little bit about what those things mean and how that phrase can be useful to me.

Yeah, we're discussing lots of weighty questions here, which I always love. But I want to get to your method in your book because I think it's very simple and also very powerful. So it's called think act B. Talk to me a little bit about what those things mean and how that phrase can be useful to me.

Great, Yeah, so think act BE. You know the three simple words that represent cognitive, behavioral and mindfulness parts of mindful CBT, so obviously think for cognitive, act for behavioral, B for mindfulness. And I like them because, well, they're simple for one thing, which seems to be counter to what we tend to do as psychologists, which make up big words for simple things. And also to me, it shows how that the three all hang together, and we really kind of need, I think, the three to act together, or at least we're most effective when our thoughts, are actions, and our sense of presence are all aligned. So I like it as a reminder. I have three kind of starting points here when I'm struggling and need some tools or different reaction, and we can start anywhere, but I often like to start with the mindful part with the bee. So let's say I'm This happens fairly often. I get to the end of the day and I'm, you know, maybe feeling exhausted, or I can feel you my body has taken on a lot of stress during the day, or I feel anxious. So I can, you know, maybe take a moment like oh, okay, b I can just take a second, you know, take a breath with awareness, check in with myself, and even that, you know, it can be a bit of a reset, like oh yeah, right here. My mind is so many places, but just that act of grounding in the moment just kind of gathers up all those things. It feels like I recollect myself, like I remember myself. I recollect myself right in the present, right here, And then I might address my thoughts like what stories am I telling myself? Well, one that often comes up is, you know, I have to get this done tonight, Like well do you I want to, yeah, but do you have to get it done? Well? No, What does it do to you to force yourself to get it done when you're just feeling spent. Yeah, I guess there's a pretty big cost there. You end up sobbing at the end of the night. It's funny, So that's a downside. And then crucially, you know, act what am I going to do about it?

Great, Yeah, so think act BE. You know the three simple words that represent cognitive, behavioral and mindfulness parts of mindful CBT, so obviously think for cognitive, act for behavioral, B for mindfulness. And I like them because, well, they're simple for one thing, which seems to be counter to what we tend to do as psychologists, which make up big words for simple things. And also to me, it shows how that the three all hang together, and we really kind of need, I think, the three to act together, or at least we're most effective when our thoughts, are actions, and our sense of presence are all aligned. So I like it as a reminder. I have three kind of starting points here when I'm struggling and need some tools or different reaction, and we can start anywhere, but I often like to start with the mindful part with the bee. So let's say I'm This happens fairly often. I get to the end of the day and I'm, you know, maybe feeling exhausted, or I can feel you my body has taken on a lot of stress during the day, or I feel anxious. So I can, you know, maybe take a moment like oh, okay, b I can just take a second, you know, take a breath with awareness, check in with myself, and even that, you know, it can be a bit of a reset, like oh yeah, right here. My mind is so many places, but just that act of grounding in the moment just kind of gathers up all those things. It feels like I recollect myself, like I remember myself. I recollect myself right in the present, right here, And then I might address my thoughts like what stories am I telling myself? Well, one that often comes up is, you know, I have to get this done tonight, Like well do you I want to, yeah, but do you have to get it done? Well? No, What does it do to you to force yourself to get it done when you're just feeling spent. Yeah, I guess there's a pretty big cost there. You end up sobbing at the end of the night. It's funny, So that's a downside. And then crucially, you know, act what am I going to do about it?

Like?

Like?

All right, so I have this insight, Yes, rest is what I need? What am I going to do? Well? I could push through and you know, finish editing this podcast episode or writing this blog post, or I could lie down the floor for a few minutes and just let everything release. I can choose to act in a way that embodies mindfulness. So being mindfuls you know, isn't just about thinking a certain way or having certain kind of different experiences of consciousness. But we can act in ways that are mindful and then that reinforced kind of what's happening for us emotionally and physically and spiritually.

All right, so I have this insight, Yes, rest is what I need? What am I going to do? Well? I could push through and you know, finish editing this podcast episode or writing this blog post, or I could lie down the floor for a few minutes and just let everything release. I can choose to act in a way that embodies mindfulness. So being mindfuls you know, isn't just about thinking a certain way or having certain kind of different experiences of consciousness. But we can act in ways that are mindful and then that reinforced kind of what's happening for us emotionally and physically and spiritually.

I love that idea of this think act be you say that they form the head, think, the hands, act and the heart be of the practices that are important. I love the idea, as you said, because you can enter on any of those levels, right, and a different level might make more sense certain times, right, Like I know for me there are times where it's the action that is like the only way forward for me.

I love that idea of this think act be you say that they form the head, think, the hands, act and the heart be of the practices that are important. I love the idea, as you said, because you can enter on any of those levels, right, and a different level might make more sense certain times, right, Like I know for me there are times where it's the action that is like the only way forward for me.

Right.

Right.

The classic example is exercising, Like, you know, I don't know why. I have no idea why it still sometimes feels hard to exercise, given how unequivocally good it always is for me, but sometimes I do, and thinking my way through it is often very difficult. I can't really be my way through it. I just have to like be like, go, go do it, you know, like the act is the way to be. You know. There are times where I can't think my way into it. I can be like, oh, yeah, well, you know, you really will feel better when you're done, you know. I mean, so you're kind of doing all those different things, and I think of them as different levers to be able to pull right and you know, grab the lever that works in the situation. And that's why I love that idea. But I also love this is because you sort of say, let me, I want to find this. You say, conversely, we hamstring our own efforts when we ignore any of these three components. Thought without action is inert, action without thought is disorganized thought or action without presence is mindless. But when applied together, these three approaches are mutually reinforcing and offer the right tools for our work. And I love that idea that you can enter at any point. But the more you have all three of those together, the stronger your I guess approach to whatever it is is going to be.