When you focus on the work for the work's sake. When you make it about information not evaluation, mean you don't make it personal about you. Ironically, that's when the best work gets done.

When you focus on the work for the work's sake. When you make it about information not evaluation, mean you don't make it personal about you. Ironically, that's when the best work gets done.

Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

Perfectionism isn't about being perfect, it's about never feeling good enough. And I think that's a really important distinction. And here's another tricky part. It often disguises itself as something positive, like being hard working, detail oriented, or driven. But when conscientiousness, which is a good quality that many of us have tips into self criticism. When our striving turns into self doubt, that's when it becomes a problem. And that's why I was excited to talk with Ellen Hendrickson, clinical psychologist and author of How to Be Enough. She unpacks the sneaky ways perfectionism shows up in our lives, whether it's turning fun into a chore, a classic of mine, over evaluating everything, or setting impossible standards. We also dive into how perfectionists handle mistakes. Some like mister Rogers, embrace them with grace, while others like Walt Disney, obsess over every tiny flaw. And we explore why procrastination is only about time management, it's also about emotion management. If you've ever felt like you're falling behind, not doing enough, or just not enough, stick around. This episode is for you. I'm Eric Zimmer, and it's time to feed our good wolves. Hi, Ellen, welcome back to the show.

Perfectionism isn't about being perfect, it's about never feeling good enough. And I think that's a really important distinction. And here's another tricky part. It often disguises itself as something positive, like being hard working, detail oriented, or driven. But when conscientiousness, which is a good quality that many of us have tips into self criticism. When our striving turns into self doubt, that's when it becomes a problem. And that's why I was excited to talk with Ellen Hendrickson, clinical psychologist and author of How to Be Enough. She unpacks the sneaky ways perfectionism shows up in our lives, whether it's turning fun into a chore, a classic of mine, over evaluating everything, or setting impossible standards. We also dive into how perfectionists handle mistakes. Some like mister Rogers, embrace them with grace, while others like Walt Disney, obsess over every tiny flaw. And we explore why procrastination is only about time management, it's also about emotion management. If you've ever felt like you're falling behind, not doing enough, or just not enough, stick around. This episode is for you. I'm Eric Zimmer, and it's time to feed our good wolves. Hi, Ellen, welcome back to the show.

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be back.

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be back.

It has been I don't know when we say, six or seven, a long time, but I remember your interview well and we've re released it in the interim because it was on a topic that a lot of people identify with which is social anxiety. And now you're back with a new book, which is another topic that I think a lot of people can identify with, which is perfectionism. The book is called How to Be Enough Self Acceptance for self critics and Perfectionists. And we'll talk about that in a second, but before we do, let's start, like we always do, with the parable. In the Parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandshot stops. They think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

It has been I don't know when we say, six or seven, a long time, but I remember your interview well and we've re released it in the interim because it was on a topic that a lot of people identify with which is social anxiety. And now you're back with a new book, which is another topic that I think a lot of people can identify with, which is perfectionism. The book is called How to Be Enough Self Acceptance for self critics and Perfectionists. And we'll talk about that in a second, but before we do, let's start, like we always do, with the parable. In the Parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandshot stops. They think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, I was struck by the fact that in the parable, both of the wolves are wolves, that they look similar, but they're so fundamentally different. And something that I've learned through researching and writing this book is that perfectionism can be good but can very easily tip over into something really maladaptive and problematic. But it often looks the same on the surface, so helpful perfectionism at its heart a personality trait called conscientiousness, which is the tendency to do things well and thoroughly, to be responsible, to be dutiful, to care deeply. It's all these wonderful things. I call it the least sexy superpower. But you know, as far as as far as a personality trait like certainly the one to choose for both objective and subjective success in life, but it can very quickly tip over into maladaptive perfectionism. And there we end up with two pillars. One is self criticism and that I think needs no definition, but you know, in maladaptive perfectionism is particularly harsh and personalistic. And then the other pillar is something that you know, even as a clinical psychologist, it was a term that was new to me. And that's over evaluation. And we can talk more about that, but essentially that is when we start to conflate our worth with our performance when we are what we do, and so there, you know, forgive my grammar but it's when I did good equals I am good, or I did bad equals I am bad. You know, really similar fundamentals but really different outcomes.

So, I was struck by the fact that in the parable, both of the wolves are wolves, that they look similar, but they're so fundamentally different. And something that I've learned through researching and writing this book is that perfectionism can be good but can very easily tip over into something really maladaptive and problematic. But it often looks the same on the surface, so helpful perfectionism at its heart a personality trait called conscientiousness, which is the tendency to do things well and thoroughly, to be responsible, to be dutiful, to care deeply. It's all these wonderful things. I call it the least sexy superpower. But you know, as far as as far as a personality trait like certainly the one to choose for both objective and subjective success in life, but it can very quickly tip over into maladaptive perfectionism. And there we end up with two pillars. One is self criticism and that I think needs no definition, but you know, in maladaptive perfectionism is particularly harsh and personalistic. And then the other pillar is something that you know, even as a clinical psychologist, it was a term that was new to me. And that's over evaluation. And we can talk more about that, but essentially that is when we start to conflate our worth with our performance when we are what we do, and so there, you know, forgive my grammar but it's when I did good equals I am good, or I did bad equals I am bad. You know, really similar fundamentals but really different outcomes.

Yeah, I love a couple of things that you said there. The first is this idea that it looks similar but is actually different, And I think that's an important point. And conscientiousness is a great personality trait. It seems to be one that I am particularly high in, at least later in my life. And yet, as you say, it can go too far. And I think that's what's interesting about nearly any trait that we have, is there is a case where there's too little of it or there's too much of it, and those are problematic. Right, too little conscientiousness is no good, Right you don't care about what you're doing, you just aren't paying attention, or you just let everything go. Too much of it and it cripples you. And so what we're looking for is somewhere in between. And I think that's one of the things the book does a nice job of pointing out, is that these traits towards perfectionism aren't necessarily bad. It's that how we use them and what proportion we keep them in and I always think that's a helpful perspective to take, because when we think that there's something wrong with us, or the way we are is wrong, then that's a different message than the way we are is fine. We just might need to turn the knob down a couple of notches on it from time to time.

Yeah, I love a couple of things that you said there. The first is this idea that it looks similar but is actually different, And I think that's an important point. And conscientiousness is a great personality trait. It seems to be one that I am particularly high in, at least later in my life. And yet, as you say, it can go too far. And I think that's what's interesting about nearly any trait that we have, is there is a case where there's too little of it or there's too much of it, and those are problematic. Right, too little conscientiousness is no good, Right you don't care about what you're doing, you just aren't paying attention, or you just let everything go. Too much of it and it cripples you. And so what we're looking for is somewhere in between. And I think that's one of the things the book does a nice job of pointing out, is that these traits towards perfectionism aren't necessarily bad. It's that how we use them and what proportion we keep them in and I always think that's a helpful perspective to take, because when we think that there's something wrong with us, or the way we are is wrong, then that's a different message than the way we are is fine. We just might need to turn the knob down a couple of notches on it from time to time.

I think you've hit on a really important point that, yes, on many of these things, we can change things. We can turn the knob down, or maybe on other things we might want to turn the knob another way or turn a different knob. But yes, there can be some change, and there can also be some acceptance where we just make room for the trait that we think is not helpful or problematic but in fact might be just something that almost everybody struggles with or something that is just how we're wired. So yes, absolutely we can change, and also we can accept, not like in a resigned way, but truly accept like, oh, this is just part of who I am, or I come by this honestly, you know. And we can certainly talk more about that, especially as applied to self criticism later.

I think you've hit on a really important point that, yes, on many of these things, we can change things. We can turn the knob down, or maybe on other things we might want to turn the knob another way or turn a different knob. But yes, there can be some change, and there can also be some acceptance where we just make room for the trait that we think is not helpful or problematic but in fact might be just something that almost everybody struggles with or something that is just how we're wired. So yes, absolutely we can change, and also we can accept, not like in a resigned way, but truly accept like, oh, this is just part of who I am, or I come by this honestly, you know. And we can certainly talk more about that, especially as applied to self criticism later.

Yeah. The one other thing that you say early on is we're sort of trying to set up what perfectionism is You talked about this sort of hypercritical self relationship and this over identification with meeting standards. But you say perfectionism isn't about striving for perfection, but about never feeling good enough. Say a little bit more about that.

Yeah. The one other thing that you say early on is we're sort of trying to set up what perfectionism is You talked about this sort of hypercritical self relationship and this over identification with meeting standards. But you say perfectionism isn't about striving for perfection, but about never feeling good enough. Say a little bit more about that.

Yeah, absolutely so.

Yeah, absolutely so.

I'm a clinical psychologist at a anxiety specialty center, and I would say the majority, almost the vast majority of clients who come in with you know, anxiety or depression have perfectionism at the heart of the overlapping center of the ven diagram of their challenges. But nobody says, hey, Ellen, I'm a perfectionist. I need help with perfectionism. Everybody comes in instead and says some variation on I'm not good enough. I feel like I'm falling behind. I should be farther ahead in life. At this point, I feel like I'm always failing. I have a million things on my plate and I'm not doing any of them well. So there's never a sense of striving for perfection. It's always a sense of not measuring up, of not being enough.

I'm a clinical psychologist at a anxiety specialty center, and I would say the majority, almost the vast majority of clients who come in with you know, anxiety or depression have perfectionism at the heart of the overlapping center of the ven diagram of their challenges. But nobody says, hey, Ellen, I'm a perfectionist. I need help with perfectionism. Everybody comes in instead and says some variation on I'm not good enough. I feel like I'm falling behind. I should be farther ahead in life. At this point, I feel like I'm always failing. I have a million things on my plate and I'm not doing any of them well. So there's never a sense of striving for perfection. It's always a sense of not measuring up, of not being enough.

Let's move on. You have a chapter that talks about the many salads of perfectionism. What do you mean there?

Let's move on. You have a chapter that talks about the many salads of perfectionism. What do you mean there?

Sure?

Sure?

Yeah, so like you said before, my last book was on social anxiety, and I think that book was easier is not the right word to use, but it was different to write because I think there are I don't know, maybe like four or five different sort of phenotypes of social anxiety. And with perfectionism, though it's so heterogeneous that you can line up one hundred people with perfectionism and I will show you one hundred different ways of being perfectionistic, it really comes out in so many ways. Because getting back to that pillar of over evaluation, we can over evaluate anything like our performance could be like, for example, like the Striver's student who derives their value from their grades.

Yeah, so like you said before, my last book was on social anxiety, and I think that book was easier is not the right word to use, but it was different to write because I think there are I don't know, maybe like four or five different sort of phenotypes of social anxiety. And with perfectionism, though it's so heterogeneous that you can line up one hundred people with perfectionism and I will show you one hundred different ways of being perfectionistic, it really comes out in so many ways. Because getting back to that pillar of over evaluation, we can over evaluate anything like our performance could be like, for example, like the Striver's student who derives their value from their grades.

It could be an employee who sees.

It could be an employee who sees.

Their quarterly evaluation like as a referendum not only on their work, but on their character. It could be the athlete who only feels as good as their last game, the musician who only feels as good as their last performance. We can overevaluate our social behavior, hence you know perfectionism being the heart of social anxiety, So we could over identify with did I say something.

Their quarterly evaluation like as a referendum not only on their work, but on their character. It could be the athlete who only feels as good as their last game, the musician who only feels as good as their last performance. We can overevaluate our social behavior, hence you know perfectionism being the heart of social anxiety, So we could over identify with did I say something.

Weird at that party? Was I awkward?

Weird at that party? Was I awkward?

We can overevaluate our reflection in the mirror. The number on the scale anything. And so I think when I talk about the many salads of perfectionism, it gets to the heart of how whatever we again over evaluate and wherever we think, we have to perform as superbly as possible to be sufficient as a person.

We can overevaluate our reflection in the mirror. The number on the scale anything. And so I think when I talk about the many salads of perfectionism, it gets to the heart of how whatever we again over evaluate and wherever we think, we have to perform as superbly as possible to be sufficient as a person.

First thing is, I would not have identified myself as someone who is a perfectionist, and I don't know that I would after reading this book, but I saw a lot of myself in it in different places and in different ways. And I'd like to talk a little bit more about the domains of perfectionism. But let's stay with this term over evaluation for a second. It's a great term. It also implies that there's a point where evaluation is good, and then there's a point where evaluation becomes over evaluation, which seems like it might be a difficult thing to discern. So how do we go about telling when evaluation is positive? So, for example, if you and I got off this call and I went back and I looked at it, and I thought, well, I could have said this there, and maybe I could have done that, and boy, the lighting, we could have changed the lighting a little bit. It might have looked a little bit better, right, useful but there's a point where that would become unuseful. And maybe as a way of talking about over evaluation, you can take us back to the analogy used to open the book between two famous entertainment people.

First thing is, I would not have identified myself as someone who is a perfectionist, and I don't know that I would after reading this book, but I saw a lot of myself in it in different places and in different ways. And I'd like to talk a little bit more about the domains of perfectionism. But let's stay with this term over evaluation for a second. It's a great term. It also implies that there's a point where evaluation is good, and then there's a point where evaluation becomes over evaluation, which seems like it might be a difficult thing to discern. So how do we go about telling when evaluation is positive? So, for example, if you and I got off this call and I went back and I looked at it, and I thought, well, I could have said this there, and maybe I could have done that, and boy, the lighting, we could have changed the lighting a little bit. It might have looked a little bit better, right, useful but there's a point where that would become unuseful. And maybe as a way of talking about over evaluation, you can take us back to the analogy used to open the book between two famous entertainment people.

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Of course there's going to be some overlap. I talk a lot in ven diagrams, don't I sell some overlap in that ven diagram of you know, ourselves and our performance. Of course, we're going to be proud of, you know, our accomplishments. Of course we're going to be bummed if something we did didn't work out.

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Of course there's going to be some overlap. I talk a lot in ven diagrams, don't I sell some overlap in that ven diagram of you know, ourselves and our performance. Of course, we're going to be proud of, you know, our accomplishments. Of course we're going to be bummed if something we did didn't work out.

That makes sense.

That makes sense.

We're not going to completely separate those two circles. But I think when they're almost completely congruent, like whether almost completely overlapping, and yeah, that absolutely gets us into trouble because then there is no room for mistakes, there's no room for We can talk about this too, the typical advice around perfectionism, which is, you know, you can to stop when things are good enough. If we feel like we are our work, we're not going to settle for subpar or mediocre outcomes, because then we're subpar or mediocre. So what we can do to try to separate that is to try to focus on the work for the work's sake. And Okay, I'm gonna give you a very long answer because I'll tell you a story and then i'll get into your question about Okay, well Disney, mister Rogers, Okay, but first let's talk about Kareem abdul Jabbar and John Wooden. So there, John Wooden was the legendary coach of UCLA basketball for many, many years, and when Kareem of doul Jabbar was there, the team just had the spectacular record and to the point where two researchers, doctors rolland Tharpe and Ronald Gallimore, decided to sit in the stands for every practice of the season to find out like what is the secret sauce, like how does coach wouldn't do this? And what they found is that he very seldom praised or rebuked his players. Instead, he would basically tell them what to do. As a former high school teacher, he would do that he would teach, and so he would say things like pass from the chest, or take lots of shots where you might get them in games, run, don't walk, pass the ball to someone short. And it was all about the information as opposed to the evaluation that it was about the task, not the player. And so what Coach Woulden had I think stumbled upon was that when you focus on the work for the work's sake, when you make it about information not evaluation, when you don't make it personal about you, ironically, that's when the best work gets done. So there, I think that's one way to kind of separ out that over evaluation and simply get back to evaluation.

We're not going to completely separate those two circles. But I think when they're almost completely congruent, like whether almost completely overlapping, and yeah, that absolutely gets us into trouble because then there is no room for mistakes, there's no room for We can talk about this too, the typical advice around perfectionism, which is, you know, you can to stop when things are good enough. If we feel like we are our work, we're not going to settle for subpar or mediocre outcomes, because then we're subpar or mediocre. So what we can do to try to separate that is to try to focus on the work for the work's sake. And Okay, I'm gonna give you a very long answer because I'll tell you a story and then i'll get into your question about Okay, well Disney, mister Rogers, Okay, but first let's talk about Kareem abdul Jabbar and John Wooden. So there, John Wooden was the legendary coach of UCLA basketball for many, many years, and when Kareem of doul Jabbar was there, the team just had the spectacular record and to the point where two researchers, doctors rolland Tharpe and Ronald Gallimore, decided to sit in the stands for every practice of the season to find out like what is the secret sauce, like how does coach wouldn't do this? And what they found is that he very seldom praised or rebuked his players. Instead, he would basically tell them what to do. As a former high school teacher, he would do that he would teach, and so he would say things like pass from the chest, or take lots of shots where you might get them in games, run, don't walk, pass the ball to someone short. And it was all about the information as opposed to the evaluation that it was about the task, not the player. And so what Coach Woulden had I think stumbled upon was that when you focus on the work for the work's sake, when you make it about information not evaluation, when you don't make it personal about you, ironically, that's when the best work gets done. So there, I think that's one way to kind of separ out that over evaluation and simply get back to evaluation.

Let's look at this work, see what is good for the work.

Let's look at this work, see what is good for the work.

Okay, then I will get into Walt Disney and mister Rogers. So there, this is a nice parallel to the opening parable with the two wolves because they look the same on the surface. So both Walt Disney and mister Rogers creations are beloved, immortal, and they had really similar personalities. Actually, they both had really high standards, were pretty intense guys, had really driving work ethics, focused on the details. But they really lived those traits and values really differently. And so for example, let's take how they focused on mistakes, because I think that gets into the over evaluation. If you are your work, there's no room for mistakes, right. So in the book, I tell the story of mister Rogers. You know, at the beginning of his show, he does his signature of changing out of his blazer and his dress shoes to a cardigan and sneakers, and as he's buttoning up the cardigan, he realizes that the buttons are one hole off, and the crew, knowing his standards, totally expected him to call cut and to refilm. But instead, on camera he just ad lib re buttoned the sweater and made a remark about how mistakes happen and moreover it they can be corrected. So he folded mistakes into his high standards, and so by contrast, I also tell the story of Walt Disney's micromanagement of the making of Snow White. So there, he just can't bring himself to trust this world class team of animators that he had so carefully hired, and he makes them redo just tiny details like the Queen's eyebrows are too extreme, Grumpy's finger is too big, have the hummingbird make four pickups instead of six. And at the premiere he tells a reporter, you know, all I can see is the flaws. I wish we could just yank it back and do this all over again. So instead of its kind of flexibly folding mistakes into the process. Walt Disney just rigidly tried to avoid mistakes. So because again, if you are your work, of course you're not going to make any room for error or believe that they can be corrected.

Okay, then I will get into Walt Disney and mister Rogers. So there, this is a nice parallel to the opening parable with the two wolves because they look the same on the surface. So both Walt Disney and mister Rogers creations are beloved, immortal, and they had really similar personalities. Actually, they both had really high standards, were pretty intense guys, had really driving work ethics, focused on the details. But they really lived those traits and values really differently. And so for example, let's take how they focused on mistakes, because I think that gets into the over evaluation. If you are your work, there's no room for mistakes, right. So in the book, I tell the story of mister Rogers. You know, at the beginning of his show, he does his signature of changing out of his blazer and his dress shoes to a cardigan and sneakers, and as he's buttoning up the cardigan, he realizes that the buttons are one hole off, and the crew, knowing his standards, totally expected him to call cut and to refilm. But instead, on camera he just ad lib re buttoned the sweater and made a remark about how mistakes happen and moreover it they can be corrected. So he folded mistakes into his high standards, and so by contrast, I also tell the story of Walt Disney's micromanagement of the making of Snow White. So there, he just can't bring himself to trust this world class team of animators that he had so carefully hired, and he makes them redo just tiny details like the Queen's eyebrows are too extreme, Grumpy's finger is too big, have the hummingbird make four pickups instead of six. And at the premiere he tells a reporter, you know, all I can see is the flaws. I wish we could just yank it back and do this all over again. So instead of its kind of flexibly folding mistakes into the process. Walt Disney just rigidly tried to avoid mistakes. So because again, if you are your work, of course you're not going to make any room for error or believe that they can be corrected.

And you talk about in mister Rogers's case, he uses something called guided drift. Say a little bit more about what that is.

And you talk about in mister Rogers's case, he uses something called guided drift. Say a little bit more about what that is.

Yeah, I love that concept.

Yeah, I love that concept.

So Fred Rogers was an ordained Presbyterian minister, and he studied at the Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, and his mentor there, William Orr, instilled in him this principle, so guided drift. So if you can imagine sort of like logs floating.

So Fred Rogers was an ordained Presbyterian minister, and he studied at the Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, and his mentor there, William Orr, instilled in him this principle, so guided drift. So if you can imagine sort of like logs floating.

Down a river.

Down a river.

The logs can go wherever the current takes them, but they are bound by the banks of the river. And so the analogy or the metaphor is that, you know, stay true to your principles, you know, stay true to your integrity, but be flexible within that, be open to the serendipity of life, be open to where the current you know, takes you within the confines of your own values.

The logs can go wherever the current takes them, but they are bound by the banks of the river. And so the analogy or the metaphor is that, you know, stay true to your principles, you know, stay true to your integrity, but be flexible within that, be open to the serendipity of life, be open to where the current you know, takes you within the confines of your own values.

I love that idea, and I'm going to apply it in a very different way for a second, but I talk about this with coaching clients and people I'm trying to teach to make change in their life, is that you have to do two things sort of simultaneously. One is you have to be sort of rigid about the fact, like I'm committed to this, I'm going to find a way to do it. But then you have to be extraordinarily flexible in how you do it. And I love that idea of guided drift because in this case, the river banks are moving my body on a regular basis as important to my mental and emotional health. That's the bank. But how I might move my body how much each day, how I might need to be flexible, that's the drift within that river. And when you try and make it only one way, the logs can get stopped and get blocked. They need to be able to go around obstacles.

I love that idea, and I'm going to apply it in a very different way for a second, but I talk about this with coaching clients and people I'm trying to teach to make change in their life, is that you have to do two things sort of simultaneously. One is you have to be sort of rigid about the fact, like I'm committed to this, I'm going to find a way to do it. But then you have to be extraordinarily flexible in how you do it. And I love that idea of guided drift because in this case, the river banks are moving my body on a regular basis as important to my mental and emotional health. That's the bank. But how I might move my body how much each day, how I might need to be flexible, that's the drift within that river. And when you try and make it only one way, the logs can get stopped and get blocked. They need to be able to go around obstacles.

Absolutely. We can think about that in so many ways. Like we can think about I don't know, like a.

Absolutely. We can think about that in so many ways. Like we can think about I don't know, like a.

Social engagement, So like is the point to sort of rigidly perform, you know, telling funny stories for our friends and to get approval, or is the point to connect? And like, there's so many different ways we can connect. We don't have to, you know, just tell the same funny stories, or to perform in a certain way. So yeah, you can apply this to almost any domain of life, which you know, as we're talking about flexibility, you know, sort of an appropriate example.

Social engagement, So like is the point to sort of rigidly perform, you know, telling funny stories for our friends and to get approval, or is the point to connect? And like, there's so many different ways we can connect. We don't have to, you know, just tell the same funny stories, or to perform in a certain way. So yeah, you can apply this to almost any domain of life, which you know, as we're talking about flexibility, you know, sort of an appropriate example.

Let's talk about the seven domains of perfectionism for a second, because I think this is useful for us to get a sense of the different places and ways this can show up for us. So we talked about one of them, the hypercritical self relationship, We talked about the over evaluation. Tell me about the next one that's on this list, which is orientation.

Let's talk about the seven domains of perfectionism for a second, because I think this is useful for us to get a sense of the different places and ways this can show up for us. So we talked about one of them, the hypercritical self relationship, We talked about the over evaluation. Tell me about the next one that's on this list, which is orientation.

To rules for sure.

To rules for sure.

Yeah, so those of us with perfectionism orient to rules. We want to know the rules so we can follow them. And ironically, if they're no rule, we will often set up personally demanding rules. We'll make them up and then we'll follow those. So think about, you know, making up rules for healthy eating, or making up rules like we were just talking about exercise, making up rules for how we're going to move our body. So rules are not necessarily bad, you know, we should pay our taxes, you know.

Yeah, so those of us with perfectionism orient to rules. We want to know the rules so we can follow them. And ironically, if they're no rule, we will often set up personally demanding rules. We'll make them up and then we'll follow those. So think about, you know, making up rules for healthy eating, or making up rules like we were just talking about exercise, making up rules for how we're going to move our body. So rules are not necessarily bad, you know, we should pay our taxes, you know.

Et cetera.

Et cetera.

But it's when the rules become rigid, so we apply them no matter the situation, like we try to follow our healthy eating rules even on Halloween or two they're all are nothing. So with that over evaluation, if we follow the rules acceptably, we are acceptable. But if we mess up, if we slip up, we break the rule or bend the rule, and even the slightest way, it renders us on acceptable. So in our healthy eating example, I ate a cookie, so I'm bad. I was bad today. And then the third way rules can get in our way in perfection is when we impose our rules on their people, and that can get in the way of our relationships. So the classic example I hear from you know, couples, both in the office and just in my life and honestly in my own house is how to load the dishwasher correctly? Like, what is the right way to load that dishwasher?

But it's when the rules become rigid, so we apply them no matter the situation, like we try to follow our healthy eating rules even on Halloween or two they're all are nothing. So with that over evaluation, if we follow the rules acceptably, we are acceptable. But if we mess up, if we slip up, we break the rule or bend the rule, and even the slightest way, it renders us on acceptable. So in our healthy eating example, I ate a cookie, so I'm bad. I was bad today. And then the third way rules can get in our way in perfection is when we impose our rules on their people, and that can get in the way of our relationships. So the classic example I hear from you know, couples, both in the office and just in my life and honestly in my own house is how to load the dishwasher correctly? Like, what is the right way to load that dishwasher?

Yeah, this is amazing that this is such a thing. I mean, my partner and I have it now. We have decided that it is utterly irrelevant and so there's no point in caring. But yet, I mean I opened the dishwasher and I think, why did she load it that way? For sure? For sure?

Yeah, this is amazing that this is such a thing. I mean, my partner and I have it now. We have decided that it is utterly irrelevant and so there's no point in caring. But yet, I mean I opened the dishwasher and I think, why did she load it that way? For sure? For sure?

No, Yeah, and like my partner and I have figured out if Okay, if you're loading the dishwasher, then you do it your way like this, it's your task, you do it however you want. But you know, there are many households where that isn't the case. I had a client who was trusting enough to admit that she was controlling how her husband made mac and cheese for their kids. She's like, you can't just dump the pasta back in after you drain it and then.

No, Yeah, and like my partner and I have figured out if Okay, if you're loading the dishwasher, then you do it your way like this, it's your task, you do it however you want. But you know, there are many households where that isn't the case. I had a client who was trusting enough to admit that she was controlling how her husband made mac and cheese for their kids. She's like, you can't just dump the pasta back in after you drain it and then.

Put in the cheese and the butter.

Put in the cheese and the butter.

You gotta keep the pasta in the calendar and then you know, put in the butter and the cheese and make that the sauce and then put in the pasta. And so I'm not saying this to throw harder the bus. I'm saying this to be validating that this is what happens in households, you know, across America, and that it's sort of the classic you know, would we rather be right or would we rather get along? And you know, there's not a perfect answer. Sometimes it is better to be right, sometimes it is better to get along. But anyway, I'm saying this to be relatable and validating that rules loom large in the minds of people with perfectionism.

You gotta keep the pasta in the calendar and then you know, put in the butter and the cheese and make that the sauce and then put in the pasta. And so I'm not saying this to throw harder the bus. I'm saying this to be validating that this is what happens in households, you know, across America, and that it's sort of the classic you know, would we rather be right or would we rather get along? And you know, there's not a perfect answer. Sometimes it is better to be right, sometimes it is better to get along. But anyway, I'm saying this to be relatable and validating that rules loom large in the minds of people with perfectionism.

Yeah. The problem with the dishwasher thing, like letting you do your thing, is that I'm going to come in after you and need to put dishes in during the day and it's going to be all jacked up at that point, and you know what kind of moron loads No, I'm just kidding.

Yeah. The problem with the dishwasher thing, like letting you do your thing, is that I'm going to come in after you and need to put dishes in during the day and it's going to be all jacked up at that point, and you know what kind of moron loads No, I'm just kidding.

Do you have a camera in my house? Just sounds familiar. Yeah, right.

Do you have a camera in my house? Just sounds familiar. Yeah, right.

It just cracks me up that like this is such a common thing and that we actually care when you look at it from that perspective. How trivial a matter? You know what could be a more trivial matter than that, really, and yet we're going to cause tension and discomfort and problems in our most important relationship. It's just like you, I'm not singling people out. I'm just saying, looking at it from a certain angle, you're like, this is insane. This also brings up a point that I think is important about perfectionism, which is that we apply it to ourselves for sure, but we also apply it to other people. And you're sort of talking about that. So maybe we can put a pin in that and we'll come back around to it. Because I want to stay within the domains here. The next domain is focusing on mistakes. Let's talk about that.

It just cracks me up that like this is such a common thing and that we actually care when you look at it from that perspective. How trivial a matter? You know what could be a more trivial matter than that, really, and yet we're going to cause tension and discomfort and problems in our most important relationship. It's just like you, I'm not singling people out. I'm just saying, looking at it from a certain angle, you're like, this is insane. This also brings up a point that I think is important about perfectionism, which is that we apply it to ourselves for sure, but we also apply it to other people. And you're sort of talking about that. So maybe we can put a pin in that and we'll come back around to it. Because I want to stay within the domains here. The next domain is focusing on mistakes. Let's talk about that.

Sure, Yeah, So, as we alluded to a little bit before, let's tie it together with the over evaluation. If we think we're not doing something correctly, then that renders us incorrect. However, so I think I make a distinction with over evaluation between lowering your standards or stopping when things are good enough. I don't think we have to do that actually, Plus that doesn't go over well, and making room for mistakes. Those might sound like the same thing, but I think they're really different. For example, okay, I'll tell you a story. So I had a client who's a pediatrician, and she had been a pediatrician for twenty five years. Was by her report, as far as I could tell, very good at it, had risen in the ranks in her clinic. But she came in and in the last week had made a mistake that she had misdiagnosed a little girl who came in with what turned out to be appendicitis. She was okay, ended up having to go to the emergency room, but was okay. She misdiagnosed that as constipation and had sent the family home and just came into session just lamb basing herself saying, Oh, I'm a terrible doctor. I should retire early. Maybe I should get my brain examined. Something's wrong with me. And I think it would be inappropriate to tell her to lower her standards, like, of course you're not going to say, ah, I did well enough today taking care of people's lives whatever.

Sure, Yeah, So, as we alluded to a little bit before, let's tie it together with the over evaluation. If we think we're not doing something correctly, then that renders us incorrect. However, so I think I make a distinction with over evaluation between lowering your standards or stopping when things are good enough. I don't think we have to do that actually, Plus that doesn't go over well, and making room for mistakes. Those might sound like the same thing, but I think they're really different. For example, okay, I'll tell you a story. So I had a client who's a pediatrician, and she had been a pediatrician for twenty five years. Was by her report, as far as I could tell, very good at it, had risen in the ranks in her clinic. But she came in and in the last week had made a mistake that she had misdiagnosed a little girl who came in with what turned out to be appendicitis. She was okay, ended up having to go to the emergency room, but was okay. She misdiagnosed that as constipation and had sent the family home and just came into session just lamb basing herself saying, Oh, I'm a terrible doctor. I should retire early. Maybe I should get my brain examined. Something's wrong with me. And I think it would be inappropriate to tell her to lower her standards, like, of course you're not going to say, ah, I did well enough today taking care of people's lives whatever.

You know.

You know.

No, we're not going to do that.

No, we're not going to do that.

But mistakes are inevitable, especially over twenty five years of practice. And so I asked her, Okay, if you had a colleague who had been in practice for twenty five years, what percentage of diagnoses would you expect to be like a reasonable number of misdiagnoses. The answer can't be zero, but even one percent gives you way more wiggle room than zero percent. And so making room for the inevitable mistakes because we're human and that's sort of the package deal of being alive and doing any kind of work is really different than lowering your standards.

But mistakes are inevitable, especially over twenty five years of practice. And so I asked her, Okay, if you had a colleague who had been in practice for twenty five years, what percentage of diagnoses would you expect to be like a reasonable number of misdiagnoses. The answer can't be zero, but even one percent gives you way more wiggle room than zero percent. And so making room for the inevitable mistakes because we're human and that's sort of the package deal of being alive and doing any kind of work is really different than lowering your standards.

I think that's really good distinction. It takes me back to rules for a second, because I do find at times that making rules for myself is really helpful. It guides me. One of my goals is to move my body for thirty minutes every day. It doesn't matter how but just somehow that's my standard. That's my rule. However, my belief is that eighty to ninety percent success at that is good enough, because what that means is, you know, if I move my body in that way ninety percent of the days, but I'm able to do that week after week, month after month, year after year, that little bit that I'm not doing comes out in the wash. It just doesn't matter. However, if I expect that I have to do one hundred percent, when I don't, I get discouraged. And one of the things we do know about motivation is it tends to go up when we feel good about ourselves and when we feel like we're capable, and it tends to go down when we feel like we're not good or we're not capable of doing it. So this idea of like rules can be useful, but they've got to have some degree of flexibility and adaptability to the I love the word you just use the inevitable things that are going to come up, Right, It's inevitable a doctor practicing long enough is going to misdiagnose someone. It's inevitable if you're trying to eat, right that there are going to be times that you don't. It's inevitable. If you're trying to exercise really regularly, they're going to be days or even periods where you don't. Those things are inevitable, and the question becomes, how do I respond wisely when the inevitable happens? And this is where I see so many people get lost on their attempts to make change in their life. And it's a perfectionist thing. It's like either I'm doing it all or I'm doing it none. And what you're arguing for is this place in between there.

I think that's really good distinction. It takes me back to rules for a second, because I do find at times that making rules for myself is really helpful. It guides me. One of my goals is to move my body for thirty minutes every day. It doesn't matter how but just somehow that's my standard. That's my rule. However, my belief is that eighty to ninety percent success at that is good enough, because what that means is, you know, if I move my body in that way ninety percent of the days, but I'm able to do that week after week, month after month, year after year, that little bit that I'm not doing comes out in the wash. It just doesn't matter. However, if I expect that I have to do one hundred percent, when I don't, I get discouraged. And one of the things we do know about motivation is it tends to go up when we feel good about ourselves and when we feel like we're capable, and it tends to go down when we feel like we're not good or we're not capable of doing it. So this idea of like rules can be useful, but they've got to have some degree of flexibility and adaptability to the I love the word you just use the inevitable things that are going to come up, Right, It's inevitable a doctor practicing long enough is going to misdiagnose someone. It's inevitable if you're trying to eat, right that there are going to be times that you don't. It's inevitable. If you're trying to exercise really regularly, they're going to be days or even periods where you don't. Those things are inevitable, and the question becomes, how do I respond wisely when the inevitable happens? And this is where I see so many people get lost on their attempts to make change in their life. And it's a perfectionist thing. It's like either I'm doing it all or I'm doing it none. And what you're arguing for is this place in between there.

Yeah, absolutely, so I think you're tapping into some self compassion. Yeah, when we inevitably make mistakes screw up, you know, like if we don't exercise even though that's really important to us because we're exhausted or injured, or just don't have time that day, or it's six degrees outside, Yeah, then I think, okay, here, let me back up, all right. Self compassion, according to the researcher doctor Kristin Neff, consists of three things. So there's self kindness, non judgmental mindfulness, and connection to the larger human experience. But the perfectionistic brain does none of those things. So we're wired to be self critical instead of kind to ourselves.

Yeah, absolutely, so I think you're tapping into some self compassion. Yeah, when we inevitably make mistakes screw up, you know, like if we don't exercise even though that's really important to us because we're exhausted or injured, or just don't have time that day, or it's six degrees outside, Yeah, then I think, okay, here, let me back up, all right. Self compassion, according to the researcher doctor Kristin Neff, consists of three things. So there's self kindness, non judgmental mindfulness, and connection to the larger human experience. But the perfectionistic brain does none of those things. So we're wired to be self critical instead of kind to ourselves.

We're wired to be a little bit judgmental.

We're wired to be a little bit judgmental.

We zero in on flaws and details instead of being non judgmentally mindful, and instead of like our inevitable shortcomings connecting us to the larger human experience, we see you know, our struggles or our mistakes, or that we focus on that missed ten percent as a shortcoming that sets us apart as inadequate, rather than a common experience that connects us to everybody else in the same vein as doctor Neff. So when I was learning to be a therapist, I was taught that self compassion was talking to yourself like a good friend.

We zero in on flaws and details instead of being non judgmentally mindful, and instead of like our inevitable shortcomings connecting us to the larger human experience, we see you know, our struggles or our mistakes, or that we focus on that missed ten percent as a shortcoming that sets us apart as inadequate, rather than a common experience that connects us to everybody else in the same vein as doctor Neff. So when I was learning to be a therapist, I was taught that self compassion was talking to yourself like a good friend.

But my perfectionist to.

But my perfectionist to.

Brain thought that that meant that I needed to generate this like steady stream of articulate and effective self compassionate hype, and that was just way too high a bar. So over the years I have learned that self compassion, you know, absolutely can be words, but it can be one word. It can be like easy or a couple words you're okay. But even more than that, self compassion can be actions, So it could be in our exercise example, going to the gym because we know from experience that that's going to make us feel better. But it could also be allowing ourselves to skip the gym, allowing ourselves a day off from exercise because what we really need is an extra hour of sleep, or because it's six degrees outside right, And so self compassion is turning towards our pain and suffering and asking what do I need? With Karen understanding, and that can be not doing all that we expect of ourselves. So kind of the old version of my perfectionistic brain would have seen ninety percent as like, come on, where is that extra ten percent? I did that before? Why can't I do this again? Whereas I'd say, now again, I wrote this book for me. I'll see it as of course, this is ninety percent, like everybody does ninety percent. This is how it works. That there are going to be exceptions and days where I don't hit it out of the park, but that doesn't mean that I have struck out right.

Brain thought that that meant that I needed to generate this like steady stream of articulate and effective self compassionate hype, and that was just way too high a bar. So over the years I have learned that self compassion, you know, absolutely can be words, but it can be one word. It can be like easy or a couple words you're okay. But even more than that, self compassion can be actions, So it could be in our exercise example, going to the gym because we know from experience that that's going to make us feel better. But it could also be allowing ourselves to skip the gym, allowing ourselves a day off from exercise because what we really need is an extra hour of sleep, or because it's six degrees outside right, And so self compassion is turning towards our pain and suffering and asking what do I need? With Karen understanding, and that can be not doing all that we expect of ourselves. So kind of the old version of my perfectionistic brain would have seen ninety percent as like, come on, where is that extra ten percent? I did that before? Why can't I do this again? Whereas I'd say, now again, I wrote this book for me. I'll see it as of course, this is ninety percent, like everybody does ninety percent. This is how it works. That there are going to be exceptions and days where I don't hit it out of the park, but that doesn't mean that I have struck out right.

And that section in the book has one of the funniest lines in the book. One of things Kristin Neff suggests is laying a hand kindly upon your heart telling yourself this is hard, you know, and you're like, I'm right there with you. I may lay a hand kindly upon my heart and tell myself this is hard, but self criticism will ride up behind me in a hockey mask and yell in my ear, no, it's fucking not.

And that section in the book has one of the funniest lines in the book. One of things Kristin Neff suggests is laying a hand kindly upon your heart telling yourself this is hard, you know, and you're like, I'm right there with you. I may lay a hand kindly upon my heart and tell myself this is hard, but self criticism will ride up behind me in a hockey mask and yell in my ear, no, it's fucking not.

Yeah, this is a documentary. Yeah.

Yeah, this is a documentary. Yeah.

So I love that idea, though, because I do think that we often set the bar for self compassion too high. And I like what you said there, because it can just be a word or two, but it often is in what we don't say to ourselves, right. Self compassion often manifests in I don't have to say lovely things to myself, but can I not say the shitty things to myself?

So I love that idea, though, because I do think that we often set the bar for self compassion too high. And I like what you said there, because it can just be a word or two, but it often is in what we don't say to ourselves, right. Self compassion often manifests in I don't have to say lovely things to myself, but can I not say the shitty things to myself?

Like?

Like?

That is self compassion sometimes, And I often talk about how when I'm in a negative mood space, I can't often get to positive. Can I aim for neutral?

That is self compassion sometimes, And I often talk about how when I'm in a negative mood space, I can't often get to positive. Can I aim for neutral?

Yeah?

Yeah?

Right? Can I aim for just not so negative?

Right? Can I aim for just not so negative?

Like?

Like?

Because I just think that's a much easier bar. And I also think that with all of this stuff, however we talk to ourselves at our head, we have to believe it to some degree. So saying oh I'm amazing, I'm wonderful, when we don't feel that often just backfires.

Because I just think that's a much easier bar. And I also think that with all of this stuff, however we talk to ourselves at our head, we have to believe it to some degree. So saying oh I'm amazing, I'm wonderful, when we don't feel that often just backfires.

Yeah, because there's part of all of us inside this that's a lie. What Yeah, now, what are you talking about? Yeah, for sure, exactly.

Yeah, because there's part of all of us inside this that's a lie. What Yeah, now, what are you talking about? Yeah, for sure, exactly.

Yeah. The other thing back to the rules for a second, in self compassion. But I think there's another thing here that we've sort of gone around a little bit, and you sort of alluded to with this ninety percent or eighty percent success rate. Part of that is self compassion, but part of that is also just an understanding of reality. And I think that's important when it comes to perfectionism, is understanding reality. Mistakes are inevitable, all these things, and so if we can have a more realistic expectation to start with, we need self compassion even less, right, because we won't see the day that we didn't move our body for whatever reason. We won't see it as a mistake that we then have to say, oh, I'm going to extend self compassion to myself because I made it's just simply like, well, of course that happened. Of course it was going to happen sooner or later, So today happened to be the day.

Yeah. The other thing back to the rules for a second, in self compassion. But I think there's another thing here that we've sort of gone around a little bit, and you sort of alluded to with this ninety percent or eighty percent success rate. Part of that is self compassion, but part of that is also just an understanding of reality. And I think that's important when it comes to perfectionism, is understanding reality. Mistakes are inevitable, all these things, and so if we can have a more realistic expectation to start with, we need self compassion even less, right, because we won't see the day that we didn't move our body for whatever reason. We won't see it as a mistake that we then have to say, oh, I'm going to extend self compassion to myself because I made it's just simply like, well, of course that happened. Of course it was going to happen sooner or later, So today happened to be the day.

Yeah. No, I mean, mistakes are only a problem if we think they shouldn't be happening, right, like, okay, So here I'll tell you a personal story. This happened just last week actually, so for the first time in twelve years, I double booked a patient and then just like did my other meeting and left her hanging on zoom like I completely missed this visit, and again, it hadn't happened in twelve years.

Yeah. No, I mean, mistakes are only a problem if we think they shouldn't be happening, right, like, okay, So here I'll tell you a personal story. This happened just last week actually, so for the first time in twelve years, I double booked a patient and then just like did my other meeting and left her hanging on zoom like I completely missed this visit, and again, it hadn't happened in twelve years.

I felt horrible when I.

I felt horrible when I.

Realized it happened, and I, you know, immediately apologized and did what I could to make it right. She was understanding, and she's like, oh, I thought you had an emergency, like I just kind of rolled with it. So thank god she was understanding about it. But I, again, I felt terrible that I had left this person who's mental health care I am in charge of hanging. It was terrible, and I tried to make room for it and thought like, well, you know, over twenty years of clinical practice, if this happens once a decade, that's about right, you know, like that's kind of how it works. So this is my quota, and this is how it goes. And I don't say that too excuse it or to say it's okay, but I do say that to make room for like, yeah, of course this is gonna happen. And you were talking about self criticism and trying to you know, not say that, you know, the really horrible shitty things to ourselves, and I agree with you that, yes, that's.

Realized it happened, and I, you know, immediately apologized and did what I could to make it right. She was understanding, and she's like, oh, I thought you had an emergency, like I just kind of rolled with it. So thank god she was understanding about it. But I, again, I felt terrible that I had left this person who's mental health care I am in charge of hanging. It was terrible, and I tried to make room for it and thought like, well, you know, over twenty years of clinical practice, if this happens once a decade, that's about right, you know, like that's kind of how it works. So this is my quota, and this is how it goes. And I don't say that too excuse it or to say it's okay, but I do say that to make room for like, yeah, of course this is gonna happen. And you were talking about self criticism and trying to you know, not say that, you know, the really horrible shitty things to ourselves, and I agree with you that, yes, that's.

The change lever we can pull.

The change lever we can pull.

We can try to be kinder to ourselves, to be if not like validating or understanding, then you know, at least neutral, And we can also pull that acceptance lever of maybe my brain just says shitty things to me, yes, but I don't have to listen to it and like that for me, you know, I have just come from a long line of perfectionists, and I am just wired to be a little more self critical than the average bear. And so through experience, I have learned that whenever I do anything involving in a microphone, that when I log off, my brain's just going to start going and be like, why did you say it that way, like or oh my gosh, you said way too much any personal things, or you know, no one's gonna resonate, just my brain's just got to start going. And I've found that it's just part of the script that, like when you go to a restaurant, there's a script like you sit down, you look at the menu, you order, your food comes, you eat, you pay, you leave. In my self critical world, you know, I send something out into the world and my brain criticizes it and myself and then we move on and either it's fine or I learned from it. If for whatever reason I didn't fulfill my intention or whatnot.

We can try to be kinder to ourselves, to be if not like validating or understanding, then you know, at least neutral, And we can also pull that acceptance lever of maybe my brain just says shitty things to me, yes, but I don't have to listen to it and like that for me, you know, I have just come from a long line of perfectionists, and I am just wired to be a little more self critical than the average bear. And so through experience, I have learned that whenever I do anything involving in a microphone, that when I log off, my brain's just going to start going and be like, why did you say it that way, like or oh my gosh, you said way too much any personal things, or you know, no one's gonna resonate, just my brain's just got to start going. And I've found that it's just part of the script that, like when you go to a restaurant, there's a script like you sit down, you look at the menu, you order, your food comes, you eat, you pay, you leave. In my self critical world, you know, I send something out into the world and my brain criticizes it and myself and then we move on and either it's fine or I learned from it. If for whatever reason I didn't fulfill my intention or whatnot.

You know, that's okay.

You know, that's okay.

So I've learned to sort of take this dance towards my own self critical brain. Like I listen to the music at a coffee shop, like it's there, you know, I can hear it, but I don't have to get yanked around by it. I don't like stand on the table and you know, dance to the beat.

So I've learned to sort of take this dance towards my own self critical brain. Like I listen to the music at a coffee shop, like it's there, you know, I can hear it, but I don't have to get yanked around by it. I don't like stand on the table and you know, dance to the beat.

So yeah, yeah, I wanted to pause for a quick good Wolf reminder. This one's about a habit change and a mistake I see people making. And that's really that we don't think about these new habits that we want add in the context of our entire life.

So yeah, yeah, I wanted to pause for a quick good Wolf reminder. This one's about a habit change and a mistake I see people making. And that's really that we don't think about these new habits that we want add in the context of our entire life.

Right.

Right.

Habits don't happen in a vacuum. They have to fit in the life that we have. So when we just keep adding I should do this, I should do that, I should do this, we get discouraged because we haven't really thought about what we're not going to do in order to make that happen. So it's really helpful for you to think about where is this going to fit and what in my life might I need to remove. If you want to step by step guide for how you can easily build new habits that feed your good Wolf, go to good Wolf dot me, slash change and join the free masterclass. When I think about it, it's amazing to me the sorts of things that will pop into my head that I recognize as like dominant parts of my thinking thirty years ago, but they're not gone. They will show up, and I laugh at them, largely because I now can see just how wildly over dramatic they are, Like just how completely I mean, I don't know. A small mistake gets made, my brain starts saying I wish I was dead, and I'm like, well, okay, settled down, Like that's ridiculous. So I can kind of laugh at it now because I recognize it's just some sort of like you said, some sort of script popping up in response to a particular stimulus that I don't have to give a lot of importance to I don't need to be like, oh my god, am I Am I suicidal? Because no, of course I'm not right. It's just a voice that says something and learning to just accept it. And for me, like I said, laughter is really helpful because I'm like, it's so disproportionate to what's actually happening. It's what tells me that it's like my eight year old self talking.

Habits don't happen in a vacuum. They have to fit in the life that we have. So when we just keep adding I should do this, I should do that, I should do this, we get discouraged because we haven't really thought about what we're not going to do in order to make that happen. So it's really helpful for you to think about where is this going to fit and what in my life might I need to remove. If you want to step by step guide for how you can easily build new habits that feed your good Wolf, go to good Wolf dot me, slash change and join the free masterclass. When I think about it, it's amazing to me the sorts of things that will pop into my head that I recognize as like dominant parts of my thinking thirty years ago, but they're not gone. They will show up, and I laugh at them, largely because I now can see just how wildly over dramatic they are, Like just how completely I mean, I don't know. A small mistake gets made, my brain starts saying I wish I was dead, and I'm like, well, okay, settled down, Like that's ridiculous. So I can kind of laugh at it now because I recognize it's just some sort of like you said, some sort of script popping up in response to a particular stimulus that I don't have to give a lot of importance to I don't need to be like, oh my god, am I Am I suicidal? Because no, of course I'm not right. It's just a voice that says something and learning to just accept it. And for me, like I said, laughter is really helpful because I'm like, it's so disproportionate to what's actually happening. It's what tells me that it's like my eight year old self talking.

Right for sure. Yeah.

Right for sure. Yeah.

No, I think those of us with some perfectionism, like we talked about before, are conscientious and that means we take things seriously, but that means we take our own thoughts and feelings seriously as well. And so you know, part of my job in the clinic is to help people with perfectionism take their own thoughts and feelings a little bit less literally that you know, just because we think like oh I wish I were dead, Yeah, it doesn't mean we're suicidal. That it could just be a thought that we can like let pass by us, like sushi it or revolving restaurant, you know, or like yeah, maybe that is something that we thought a lot when we were twenty five, but you know it's just yeah, so absolutely, like just because we think it or feel it like, just because we feel incompetent doesn't mean we are like that we can't do this thing that we want to do. Or just because we feel dissatisfied with our lives doesn't mean that we're actually falling behind. So a mentor helped me by saying, like, yeah, take your problems seriously, but don't take them too serious. Like hold your problems as if you're holding a small animal, like a hamster or like a little bird, and so you have to hold them, you know, firmly, like you have to take it seriously so that they don't run away, you know, but if you hold them too tightly, you're going to make a big mess. So that holder problems lightly has been very helpful to me, and I try to pass that on to clients as well.

No, I think those of us with some perfectionism, like we talked about before, are conscientious and that means we take things seriously, but that means we take our own thoughts and feelings seriously as well. And so you know, part of my job in the clinic is to help people with perfectionism take their own thoughts and feelings a little bit less literally that you know, just because we think like oh I wish I were dead, Yeah, it doesn't mean we're suicidal. That it could just be a thought that we can like let pass by us, like sushi it or revolving restaurant, you know, or like yeah, maybe that is something that we thought a lot when we were twenty five, but you know it's just yeah, so absolutely, like just because we think it or feel it like, just because we feel incompetent doesn't mean we are like that we can't do this thing that we want to do. Or just because we feel dissatisfied with our lives doesn't mean that we're actually falling behind. So a mentor helped me by saying, like, yeah, take your problems seriously, but don't take them too serious. Like hold your problems as if you're holding a small animal, like a hamster or like a little bird, and so you have to hold them, you know, firmly, like you have to take it seriously so that they don't run away, you know, but if you hold them too tightly, you're going to make a big mess. So that holder problems lightly has been very helpful to me, and I try to pass that on to clients as well.

So I have a question for you that I think about a lot. And this is a slight deviation, but I'm curious how you think about this, because with thoughts and emotions, there seem to be two sort of approaches in psychology that I have seen. I'm overgeneralizing here, but one approach is the little bit more acceptance and commitment therapy type thing, a little bit more Buddhist type thing, which is, your thoughts and feelings are just things that arise, you know, that come out of causes and conditions. Don't let them run your life, don't pay a ton of attention. The other seems to be sort of the psychoanalytic approach or the depth psychology approach, which says, everything that you feel is a message, right, and you've got to pay attention to what these things are telling you. And I find that I end up needing to use both those approaches, but I often don't know when to do which that's.

So I have a question for you that I think about a lot. And this is a slight deviation, but I'm curious how you think about this, because with thoughts and emotions, there seem to be two sort of approaches in psychology that I have seen. I'm overgeneralizing here, but one approach is the little bit more acceptance and commitment therapy type thing, a little bit more Buddhist type thing, which is, your thoughts and feelings are just things that arise, you know, that come out of causes and conditions. Don't let them run your life, don't pay a ton of attention. The other seems to be sort of the psychoanalytic approach or the depth psychology approach, which says, everything that you feel is a message, right, and you've got to pay attention to what these things are telling you. And I find that I end up needing to use both those approaches, but I often don't know when to do which that's.

A great question.

A great question.

So maybe I'm coming down on one side of your question by invoking acceptance signifented therapy, where the gurus there, you know, say, essentially, do what works for the context.

So maybe I'm coming down on one side of your question by invoking acceptance signifented therapy, where the gurus there, you know, say, essentially, do what works for the context.

Okay, and context can.

Okay, and context can.

Be what we kind of literally think of as context, like the situation at hand, but context can also be like our genetics, our history, like everything that's brought us to the present moment, and like, let's do what works, let's do what's functional for the situation the context at hand. So, weirdly, even though that's an act concept there, maybe what works is some depth psychology. Maybe what works is yeah, some analytic stuff. So You're right, it is hard to know what's correct per se. But I think that brings us back to our conversation about flexibility, and we'll try something. If we find that that's not what we needed, we can do something else that's okay, it's not you know, a one and done exam for like, Okay, decide right now, what's going to work?

Be what we kind of literally think of as context, like the situation at hand, but context can also be like our genetics, our history, like everything that's brought us to the present moment, and like, let's do what works, let's do what's functional for the situation the context at hand. So, weirdly, even though that's an act concept there, maybe what works is some depth psychology. Maybe what works is yeah, some analytic stuff. So You're right, it is hard to know what's correct per se. But I think that brings us back to our conversation about flexibility, and we'll try something. If we find that that's not what we needed, we can do something else that's okay, it's not you know, a one and done exam for like, Okay, decide right now, what's going to work?

Go.

Go.

Yeah, that leads us into another domain that you talk about of perfectionism I think is worth talking about, which is emotional perfectionism. And this is an idea that only kind of came across my radar semi recently. Tell me what emotional perfectionism is.

Yeah, that leads us into another domain that you talk about of perfectionism I think is worth talking about, which is emotional perfectionism. And this is an idea that only kind of came across my radar semi recently. Tell me what emotional perfectionism is.

Yeah, it's being appropriate in one's felt or demonstrated emotions. So it's essentially when we've learned that emotion is a response to a particular situation as opposed to how we actually feel inside.

Yeah, it's being appropriate in one's felt or demonstrated emotions. So it's essentially when we've learned that emotion is a response to a particular situation as opposed to how we actually feel inside.

So an example might be.

So an example might be.

That I say that customer service is entirely predicated on sort of this performative emotional perfectionism, like service with a smile, Like the salesperson is acting how they should or how is appropriate as opposed to how they might really feel about the situation. So sometimes that's appropriate, right, Like in a job interview, of course we're going to act excited about the prospect of working there. At a funeral, of course we're going to act, you know, sad or concerned or whatnot. But if that becomes our go to, If how we feel both inside and what we show on our face is determined by the situation as opposed to how we feel, then it can come off as feeling to us like empty or fake or phony. And then that, you know, over months and years and decades, can leave us sort of emotionally bereft.