We're wired for transcendence. Prayer and devotion does not have to be to an entity with a will and a beard, but connection to the greatest possible love and unity that binds us all and gives us our common humanity. Welcome to the One You Feed.

We're wired for transcendence. Prayer and devotion does not have to be to an entity with a will and a beard, but connection to the greatest possible love and unity that binds us all and gives us our common humanity. Welcome to the One You Feed.

Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true, and yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is a guest that has been on two previous times. He's closing in on the record of most appearances on The One You Feed. It is Rain Wilson, an American actor, comedian, podcaster, producer, writer, director, and the list goes on and on. You guys probably know him best as Dwight from the TV show The Office, but his accomplishments are so many I can't even begin to list them all. But most importantly for this episode is to mention his new book called Soul Boom, Why We Need a Spiritual Revolution.

Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true, and yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is a guest that has been on two previous times. He's closing in on the record of most appearances on The One You Feed. It is Rain Wilson, an American actor, comedian, podcaster, producer, writer, director, and the list goes on and on. You guys probably know him best as Dwight from the TV show The Office, but his accomplishments are so many I can't even begin to list them all. But most importantly for this episode is to mention his new book called Soul Boom, Why We Need a Spiritual Revolution.

Hi, Rain, welcome to the show, Eric.

Hi, Rain, welcome to the show, Eric.

Thanks for having me back thirds of Charm.

Thanks for having me back thirds of Charm.

I'm really glad you're here.

I'm really glad you're here.

Rain.

Rain.

It's a pleasure to talk to you every time we get to do it. And today we're going to be discussing your latest book, which is called Soul Boom, Why we Need a Spiritual Revolution. But before we get into that, we will start like we always do with the Parable. In the Parable, there's a grandparent who's talking to their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and thinks about it for a second, looks up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

It's a pleasure to talk to you every time we get to do it. And today we're going to be discussing your latest book, which is called Soul Boom, Why we Need a Spiritual Revolution. But before we get into that, we will start like we always do with the Parable. In the Parable, there's a grandparent who's talking to their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and thinks about it for a second, looks up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Eric. As you know, I'm a huge fan of your podcast and you are og old school. You've been doing this for a long time. You've been in that kind of recovery mental health wellness space since the talkies were invented, right, wasn't it? And I love how you frame the conversation around that really exquisite story, and to me, it reminds me of a story from my faith, which is the Baha'i faith, and that is the son of the founder of the Bahai faith, who went by the title Abdul Baha, which means servant of Glory. He came to the United States a little over one hundred years ago and he was interviewed when he landed at the docks in New York City and there was a journalist there and they said, do Bahais do members of the Bahai faith believe in Satan? And Abdul Baha said, yes, Bahais believe in Satan. And the guy seemed a little surprised, and he said, oh, to a Bahai, what is Satan? And abdul Baha said, Satan is the insistent self. I love it, and I love that idea of the insistent self, because Satan not being some creature with a tale and red skin and who lives in an evil place. But Satan is inside all of us. It is the insistent self side of all of us, and we all have that insistent self, that ego that is a veil between us and God. To quote Rumy, the ego is a veil between us and God and keeps us in the mud. You know, it keeps us with those qualities that you described, you know, greed and avarice, comparison, envy, aggression, fear and lust. And so to me, the parable that you put at the centerpiece of your show is the number one most important spiritual path, spiritual battle that any and every human being walks. It's in every spiritual tradition, and it's the battle between us and our lower selves and our higher selves. And battle is a tough word. Almost feel bad about using the word battle because conflict is so inherent and baked into that word. But a balance between these two sides of ourselves and the spiritual path for anyone, and no matter what your background, if you're spiritual not religious, and you struggle with God, if you're a Christian, if you're Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Bahai is always how do we keep the insistent self at bay? Recognize it as an important part of the human experience. We wouldn't be here as human beings if we didn't have greed, lust, avarice, aggression. Right one hundred thousand years ago, we probably need those qualities to keep our tribes alive in our caves. They don't serve us as much anymore. The stakes are much higher and much more insidious. So the spiritual path and all of these different faith traditions is feeding the wolf that isn't the insistent self.

Eric. As you know, I'm a huge fan of your podcast and you are og old school. You've been doing this for a long time. You've been in that kind of recovery mental health wellness space since the talkies were invented, right, wasn't it? And I love how you frame the conversation around that really exquisite story, and to me, it reminds me of a story from my faith, which is the Baha'i faith, and that is the son of the founder of the Bahai faith, who went by the title Abdul Baha, which means servant of Glory. He came to the United States a little over one hundred years ago and he was interviewed when he landed at the docks in New York City and there was a journalist there and they said, do Bahais do members of the Bahai faith believe in Satan? And Abdul Baha said, yes, Bahais believe in Satan. And the guy seemed a little surprised, and he said, oh, to a Bahai, what is Satan? And abdul Baha said, Satan is the insistent self. I love it, and I love that idea of the insistent self, because Satan not being some creature with a tale and red skin and who lives in an evil place. But Satan is inside all of us. It is the insistent self side of all of us, and we all have that insistent self, that ego that is a veil between us and God. To quote Rumy, the ego is a veil between us and God and keeps us in the mud. You know, it keeps us with those qualities that you described, you know, greed and avarice, comparison, envy, aggression, fear and lust. And so to me, the parable that you put at the centerpiece of your show is the number one most important spiritual path, spiritual battle that any and every human being walks. It's in every spiritual tradition, and it's the battle between us and our lower selves and our higher selves. And battle is a tough word. Almost feel bad about using the word battle because conflict is so inherent and baked into that word. But a balance between these two sides of ourselves and the spiritual path for anyone, and no matter what your background, if you're spiritual not religious, and you struggle with God, if you're a Christian, if you're Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Bahai is always how do we keep the insistent self at bay? Recognize it as an important part of the human experience. We wouldn't be here as human beings if we didn't have greed, lust, avarice, aggression. Right one hundred thousand years ago, we probably need those qualities to keep our tribes alive in our caves. They don't serve us as much anymore. The stakes are much higher and much more insidious. So the spiritual path and all of these different faith traditions is feeding the wolf that isn't the insistent self.

I love that answer. There's a few things in there to touch on. The insistent self is a great phrase. And I know you, like me, did some recovery work in twelve step programs, and I remember reading it was the AA Big Book. I wasn't sober very long. I was twenty five years old and had been a homeless heroin addict and I remember reading there's a section in there that talks about and it says it a little bit bluntly maybe for today's world, but it says selfishness, self centeredness that we think is the root of our problem. I really got it, and like in a moment, I remember that moment of like, instead of that being something that made me defend myself, I just suddenly went like, oh, yeah, Like, all I do is think about myself. All I do is think about like how I feel and how I'm going to modify how I feel by whatever chemical I can get my hands on. But it is an entirely self centered pursuit. And so right, that phrase, the insistent self, I love because I do think that you know, we all know we need some degree of self and desire and will to function in the world. But that phrase insistent talks to me about that being out of the other word you use there, which is balance. Right. I don't love the word battle either, you know, I think these things are a balance, but the insistent self gives me a very clear like, Oh, it's the self that just keeps carrying on beyond when it's useful and beyond when it's helpful. And so thanks for sharing that phrase. I love that one.

I love that answer. There's a few things in there to touch on. The insistent self is a great phrase. And I know you, like me, did some recovery work in twelve step programs, and I remember reading it was the AA Big Book. I wasn't sober very long. I was twenty five years old and had been a homeless heroin addict and I remember reading there's a section in there that talks about and it says it a little bit bluntly maybe for today's world, but it says selfishness, self centeredness that we think is the root of our problem. I really got it, and like in a moment, I remember that moment of like, instead of that being something that made me defend myself, I just suddenly went like, oh, yeah, Like, all I do is think about myself. All I do is think about like how I feel and how I'm going to modify how I feel by whatever chemical I can get my hands on. But it is an entirely self centered pursuit. And so right, that phrase, the insistent self, I love because I do think that you know, we all know we need some degree of self and desire and will to function in the world. But that phrase insistent talks to me about that being out of the other word you use there, which is balance. Right. I don't love the word battle either, you know, I think these things are a balance, but the insistent self gives me a very clear like, Oh, it's the self that just keeps carrying on beyond when it's useful and beyond when it's helpful. And so thanks for sharing that phrase. I love that one.

Thanks Thanks Eric.

Thanks Thanks Eric.

One of the things that you talk a lot about in the book is the importance of finding a spiritual path that resonates with us individually. This is a big piece of your work in general, I would say, and I would be curious if somebody is coming to this and wants to develop a spiritual life of some sort, but they've either come out of a tradition that no longer makes sense to them, or they don't really know what they believe in or feel like, how do you think about people getting started on this path?

One of the things that you talk a lot about in the book is the importance of finding a spiritual path that resonates with us individually. This is a big piece of your work in general, I would say, and I would be curious if somebody is coming to this and wants to develop a spiritual life of some sort, but they've either come out of a tradition that no longer makes sense to them, or they don't really know what they believe in or feel like, how do you think about people getting started on this path?

That's a great question. I wish I had an easy answer, and I wish I had kind of had more time to formulate this. It feels like that could be a book just on itself, just answering.

That's a great question. I wish I had an easy answer, and I wish I had kind of had more time to formulate this. It feels like that could be a book just on itself, just answering.

That really could it Probably could, Yeah.

That really could it Probably could, Yeah.

That question. I think the Twelve Steps do it very well by first kind of defining what a higher power looks like, and that can be tricky for a lot of people in recovery and a lot of people on a spiritual path. One of the things we explore on the New Soul Boom podcast is the concept that for a lot of people, their religion or faith journey is the most inspiring, uplifting thing they'll ever encounter, and the most meaningful thing they'll ever encounter. And for a lot of people, their faith and spirituality journey is the most traumatic thing that has scarred them the most, So we have to be very conscious of that. There can be a great deal of religious trauma. But that's one way I think. You know, meditation is super important to my recovery, my mental health journey, and that's a pretty easy thing to undertake. That doesn't require a lot of belief and a lot of knowledge, and you can just sit quietly, preferably you know, maybe outside, maybe in under a tree or something like that, and even just take five or ten minutes to just quiet the mind and breathe and be in the moment. You don't have to do anything fancy around that. And then I have a chapter in the book about sacred pilgrimages, the sacred Pilgrims I call it, and the idea of finding what is sacred in daily life in our modern world with our phones buzzing and emails that need returning and cost co parking lots, and how do you find the sacred in that world? The main thing for me is to consider the idea. The quote I often go to is from Father Tehart de Chardin, who says we are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience. And when I am reminded of my spiritual reality, that's where I begin, and that's where I begin every day, Like, yes, I have this insistent self, I have Rain Wilson. I've got this big, middle aged, fleshy body from suburban Seattle. My body has certain needs. It likes to overeat, you know. And I have an ego, you know, And I'm in Hollywood and I'm like, oh, why did so and so get that part and I didn't? And why didn't I get considered for this role? And why am I not getting paid that? And you know, it's really really difficult to sidestep that in show business and release that. But when I remember that I am a spiritual being having a human experience, that can inform the choices that I make and the path that I walk. Wherever that takes you. You know, that can take you to indigenous Native American spiritual beliefs. It can take you to transcendental meditation. It can take you to mystical Catholicism. You know, the Vedas and Upanishads, the Buddha. But it is a universal in all religious traditions that we have a spiritual higher component, a spirit, a soul, whatever you want to call it. And how then do we step by step clear space in our lives to feed, nourish, contemplate, and embrace the spiritual side of ourselves.

That question. I think the Twelve Steps do it very well by first kind of defining what a higher power looks like, and that can be tricky for a lot of people in recovery and a lot of people on a spiritual path. One of the things we explore on the New Soul Boom podcast is the concept that for a lot of people, their religion or faith journey is the most inspiring, uplifting thing they'll ever encounter, and the most meaningful thing they'll ever encounter. And for a lot of people, their faith and spirituality journey is the most traumatic thing that has scarred them the most, So we have to be very conscious of that. There can be a great deal of religious trauma. But that's one way I think. You know, meditation is super important to my recovery, my mental health journey, and that's a pretty easy thing to undertake. That doesn't require a lot of belief and a lot of knowledge, and you can just sit quietly, preferably you know, maybe outside, maybe in under a tree or something like that, and even just take five or ten minutes to just quiet the mind and breathe and be in the moment. You don't have to do anything fancy around that. And then I have a chapter in the book about sacred pilgrimages, the sacred Pilgrims I call it, and the idea of finding what is sacred in daily life in our modern world with our phones buzzing and emails that need returning and cost co parking lots, and how do you find the sacred in that world? The main thing for me is to consider the idea. The quote I often go to is from Father Tehart de Chardin, who says we are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience. And when I am reminded of my spiritual reality, that's where I begin, and that's where I begin every day, Like, yes, I have this insistent self, I have Rain Wilson. I've got this big, middle aged, fleshy body from suburban Seattle. My body has certain needs. It likes to overeat, you know. And I have an ego, you know, And I'm in Hollywood and I'm like, oh, why did so and so get that part and I didn't? And why didn't I get considered for this role? And why am I not getting paid that? And you know, it's really really difficult to sidestep that in show business and release that. But when I remember that I am a spiritual being having a human experience, that can inform the choices that I make and the path that I walk. Wherever that takes you. You know, that can take you to indigenous Native American spiritual beliefs. It can take you to transcendental meditation. It can take you to mystical Catholicism. You know, the Vedas and Upanishads, the Buddha. But it is a universal in all religious traditions that we have a spiritual higher component, a spirit, a soul, whatever you want to call it. And how then do we step by step clear space in our lives to feed, nourish, contemplate, and embrace the spiritual side of ourselves.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. Listener, while you were listening to that, what resonated with you? What one thing to feed your good wolf comes to mind? If the thing that came to your mind was more time for stillness, or you've tried meditation before and you really haven't liked it, then I want to give you a quick tip that might make.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. Listener, while you were listening to that, what resonated with you? What one thing to feed your good wolf comes to mind? If the thing that came to your mind was more time for stillness, or you've tried meditation before and you really haven't liked it, then I want to give you a quick tip that might make.

It better for you.

It better for you.

And it's simply to stop expecting that you're not going to have thoughts. Nearly everyone has this expectation that they're going to sit down and meditate and they're going to stop having thoughts. And when they stop having thoughts, that means they're doing it well. But no one does that, and so we end up feeling like we're failing all of the time, every three seconds, failed again, failed again. We develop a relationship with meditation that is aversive. So if you want to stop dreading meditation and actually find it relaxing. Check out my free meditation guide at Goodwolf dot me slash calm. In it, I walk you through my process to engage with meditation in a new way, and a lot of people have found it really helpful. That's good Wolf dot me slash calm. As far as your life and the things that you know you get caught up in, I don't wish anybody getting caught up in anything, But what I like about that is there's this real tendency of a lot of people to look up right, and we think, well, so and so their life must be just fine, it must be great because it has these things in it that I want. Right, and you're a person that you know, the vast majority of the actors on the planet would look up at right. There's a lot of actors on the planet and go, God, if I could have a career like that, right, if I could just I love those examples because I think it shows that for all of us as humans, regardless of where we're situated in different places, that there are ways to be unhappy where we are, and there are ways to be happier where we are, Like right, where we sit. And this is not to say, you know, like that if somebody is living on three dollars a day that like they should just be able to be as happy as everybody else. That's not what I'm trying to say. But I'm saying that speaking to that general sense we all have of I would just be happy if I got X, right, I know, and I look at my own life, I'm like, I got a lot of X that I wanted, and I am happier. But I don't think it's because of that, right, I think it's because I've continued to try and develop along as you would say, spiritual lines.

And it's simply to stop expecting that you're not going to have thoughts. Nearly everyone has this expectation that they're going to sit down and meditate and they're going to stop having thoughts. And when they stop having thoughts, that means they're doing it well. But no one does that, and so we end up feeling like we're failing all of the time, every three seconds, failed again, failed again. We develop a relationship with meditation that is aversive. So if you want to stop dreading meditation and actually find it relaxing. Check out my free meditation guide at Goodwolf dot me slash calm. In it, I walk you through my process to engage with meditation in a new way, and a lot of people have found it really helpful. That's good Wolf dot me slash calm. As far as your life and the things that you know you get caught up in, I don't wish anybody getting caught up in anything, But what I like about that is there's this real tendency of a lot of people to look up right, and we think, well, so and so their life must be just fine, it must be great because it has these things in it that I want. Right, and you're a person that you know, the vast majority of the actors on the planet would look up at right. There's a lot of actors on the planet and go, God, if I could have a career like that, right, if I could just I love those examples because I think it shows that for all of us as humans, regardless of where we're situated in different places, that there are ways to be unhappy where we are, and there are ways to be happier where we are, Like right, where we sit. And this is not to say, you know, like that if somebody is living on three dollars a day that like they should just be able to be as happy as everybody else. That's not what I'm trying to say. But I'm saying that speaking to that general sense we all have of I would just be happy if I got X, right, I know, and I look at my own life, I'm like, I got a lot of X that I wanted, and I am happier. But I don't think it's because of that, right, I think it's because I've continued to try and develop along as you would say, spiritual lines.

One hundred percent. So all of contemporary society in Western civilization wires us and motivates us to seek happiness outside of ourselves. So we just keep reaching for more. We want to make more money, we want to have a better relationship, we want to live longer, we want to look more youthful, we want to own more stuff. And you know, going back to our caveman ancestors, it makes total sense. You know, if you had a lot of deer jerky and a lot of you know, beaver pelts, you know, and berries in your cave and you had a lot of like eligible mates, you know, in your cave, you would thrive. So the acquiring of stuff and the need for stuff is hardwired into our brain stems, but it doesn't help us so much in the modern world. I was really lucky to do this television show I was on the Peacock Network last year called Rain Wilson and the Geography of Bliss. And it was traveling around the world looking at happiness in other cultures and what brings people joy and bliss and what we can learn from other cultures and bring back home to America. And you know, the thing that I found is really quite simple, and it was so revelatory, and it's connection. We really thrive in connection, and we really waste away in isolation. And this is also how we're wired. So you know what wolf are we feeding. We're putting away the you know, the materialist pursuits of seeking happiness outside of ourselves and finding connection. And that is certainly human connection and finding tribes and communities and like minded people or different minded people, but it's also connection with nature. It's connection with the higher power. We long to be connected. That would be the only other than turning inward and seeking, you know, peace from the kind of agitated unquiet that we walk the world. It's connection and I got to experience that in Iceland and Thailand and in Ghana, West Africa, and it's helped me bring it home to my life here in Los Angeles.

One hundred percent. So all of contemporary society in Western civilization wires us and motivates us to seek happiness outside of ourselves. So we just keep reaching for more. We want to make more money, we want to have a better relationship, we want to live longer, we want to look more youthful, we want to own more stuff. And you know, going back to our caveman ancestors, it makes total sense. You know, if you had a lot of deer jerky and a lot of you know, beaver pelts, you know, and berries in your cave and you had a lot of like eligible mates, you know, in your cave, you would thrive. So the acquiring of stuff and the need for stuff is hardwired into our brain stems, but it doesn't help us so much in the modern world. I was really lucky to do this television show I was on the Peacock Network last year called Rain Wilson and the Geography of Bliss. And it was traveling around the world looking at happiness in other cultures and what brings people joy and bliss and what we can learn from other cultures and bring back home to America. And you know, the thing that I found is really quite simple, and it was so revelatory, and it's connection. We really thrive in connection, and we really waste away in isolation. And this is also how we're wired. So you know what wolf are we feeding. We're putting away the you know, the materialist pursuits of seeking happiness outside of ourselves and finding connection. And that is certainly human connection and finding tribes and communities and like minded people or different minded people, but it's also connection with nature. It's connection with the higher power. We long to be connected. That would be the only other than turning inward and seeking, you know, peace from the kind of agitated unquiet that we walk the world. It's connection and I got to experience that in Iceland and Thailand and in Ghana, West Africa, and it's helped me bring it home to my life here in Los Angeles.

I agree. I mean, to me the words spiritual, You and I have slightly different definitions, and maybe we can go into that in a second. Right, for me, spiritual is all about To me, it just means connecting with the things that really matter. That's kind of it for me. I'd love to ask you what it means to you in a second, but I don't want to miss this discussion of your TV show, which sounds delightful. I'm going to need to figure out how I can get National Geographic to watch it. Peacock, Peacock, Peacock, Okay, all right, that's easier to figure out.

I agree. I mean, to me the words spiritual, You and I have slightly different definitions, and maybe we can go into that in a second. Right, for me, spiritual is all about To me, it just means connecting with the things that really matter. That's kind of it for me. I'd love to ask you what it means to you in a second, but I don't want to miss this discussion of your TV show, which sounds delightful. I'm going to need to figure out how I can get National Geographic to watch it. Peacock, Peacock, Peacock, Okay, all right, that's easier to figure out.

Yeah, you just get the free month on the Peacock and just watch.

Yeah, you just get the free month on the Peacock and just watch.

It and then and then forget to cancel, forget to cantnam. Kidding. You've done a lot of studying of different cultures, particularly in the spiritual dimension, for a long time now, right, you're really well read in the spiritual literature. I'm curious though, as you went out and traveled, it sounds like there was this overarching thing that you sort of got, which was connection. But were there any other things in that that surprised you or that was like a new angle on something you were like, Wow, I never thought of it that way before. I'm just kind of curious for another takeaway out of that experience.

It and then and then forget to cancel, forget to cantnam. Kidding. You've done a lot of studying of different cultures, particularly in the spiritual dimension, for a long time now, right, you're really well read in the spiritual literature. I'm curious though, as you went out and traveled, it sounds like there was this overarching thing that you sort of got, which was connection. But were there any other things in that that surprised you or that was like a new angle on something you were like, Wow, I never thought of it that way before. I'm just kind of curious for another takeaway out of that experience.

Yeah, boy, I mean there's so much. One of the big disconnects we have in the modern world is our connection with nature. I was reading recently and it's an easy thing to google, Like how much time people spend outdoors is astonishingly low. You know, usually less than an hour a day, and that's amazing when we used to spend twenty four hours a day outdoors, or at least twelve hours a day outdoors. Take the people of Iceland, for instance. You know a lot of times they're forced inside during the very cold winters, but their relationship, their connection to nature is incredibly profound. Their love, the Icelandic love of the glaciers and the volcanoes and the hot springs and the waterfalls and the geysers that populate their island. They really worship that aspect of being Icelandic, an intensely burning love for nature and for their island. I found the same thing to be in Ghana and in Thailand as well, and it's something that I realized was very much missing in my life. I mean, I try and take a big camping trip every summer, and you know, I like to take dog walks and you know, go down to the beach sometimes. But to really prioritize nature time is a big part of a spiritual pathntal health path, a wellness path. And it sounds good, yeah, yeah, oh yeah, more trees, more nature, It sounds good. But you know what would it take to really prioritize, like to measure like how much time do you spend outside? How do you increase that? Can you take being vaguely outside to being committedly outside and can you get out two or three times in the year into the wilderness and where there's not a phone and there's just trees, and how does that feed yourself? It's very common sense, but I think it has had a profound effect on the mental health crisis that we've been undergoing over the last twenty or thirty years.

Yeah, boy, I mean there's so much. One of the big disconnects we have in the modern world is our connection with nature. I was reading recently and it's an easy thing to google, Like how much time people spend outdoors is astonishingly low. You know, usually less than an hour a day, and that's amazing when we used to spend twenty four hours a day outdoors, or at least twelve hours a day outdoors. Take the people of Iceland, for instance. You know a lot of times they're forced inside during the very cold winters, but their relationship, their connection to nature is incredibly profound. Their love, the Icelandic love of the glaciers and the volcanoes and the hot springs and the waterfalls and the geysers that populate their island. They really worship that aspect of being Icelandic, an intensely burning love for nature and for their island. I found the same thing to be in Ghana and in Thailand as well, and it's something that I realized was very much missing in my life. I mean, I try and take a big camping trip every summer, and you know, I like to take dog walks and you know, go down to the beach sometimes. But to really prioritize nature time is a big part of a spiritual pathntal health path, a wellness path. And it sounds good, yeah, yeah, oh yeah, more trees, more nature, It sounds good. But you know what would it take to really prioritize, like to measure like how much time do you spend outside? How do you increase that? Can you take being vaguely outside to being committedly outside and can you get out two or three times in the year into the wilderness and where there's not a phone and there's just trees, and how does that feed yourself? It's very common sense, but I think it has had a profound effect on the mental health crisis that we've been undergoing over the last twenty or thirty years.

Yeah, it's really hard like I prioritize being in nature, and I bet I'm under an hour a day average, And that's with me even trying, you know, just given you know the nature of a lot of the way my life is structured. And yet I know for me it is a really valuable thing. There's something about it. I think it's helpful on many levels for me. One of the levels is like I can just walk outside and it's beautiful and I can be like, you know what, this costs absolutely nothing, and this is always available. It's like this resource is here. It's how I feel about libraries too. I walk into a library, I just feel happy, you know, it's like this is amazing, Like, you know, look at this repository of hope and possibility that like I can just walk into nature has that similar. Obviously it's working on different mechanisms, but there's a correlation to me about something about this resource that's always there.

Yeah, it's really hard like I prioritize being in nature, and I bet I'm under an hour a day average, And that's with me even trying, you know, just given you know the nature of a lot of the way my life is structured. And yet I know for me it is a really valuable thing. There's something about it. I think it's helpful on many levels for me. One of the levels is like I can just walk outside and it's beautiful and I can be like, you know what, this costs absolutely nothing, and this is always available. It's like this resource is here. It's how I feel about libraries too. I walk into a library, I just feel happy, you know, it's like this is amazing, Like, you know, look at this repository of hope and possibility that like I can just walk into nature has that similar. Obviously it's working on different mechanisms, but there's a correlation to me about something about this resource that's always there.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Another aspect around Bliss is very simply doing things for other people, being of service, and they've done countless studies in the field of positive psychology around this. That again, contemporary Western society says, you know, me, me me, you know it's me time to take care of yourself, get stuff for yourself, acquire stuff, putting yourself first and foremost. But in actuality, when we are of service to others, when we prioritize others and sacrificing of our time, of our attention, of our status, of our resources for others, it gives us a great, deep sense of fulfillment. I'll never forget meeting this woman in Thailand, and this is a common practice in Thailand that every year for her birthday she goes and hands out food and is of service to the monks that live in very impoverished state in the monasteries and hands out food to the poor. So her birthday is a service day to others. And I thought that is really beautiful and one ady opposite of America where it's all about celebrating ourselves and getting cake and presents for ourselves.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Another aspect around Bliss is very simply doing things for other people, being of service, and they've done countless studies in the field of positive psychology around this. That again, contemporary Western society says, you know, me, me me, you know it's me time to take care of yourself, get stuff for yourself, acquire stuff, putting yourself first and foremost. But in actuality, when we are of service to others, when we prioritize others and sacrificing of our time, of our attention, of our status, of our resources for others, it gives us a great, deep sense of fulfillment. I'll never forget meeting this woman in Thailand, and this is a common practice in Thailand that every year for her birthday she goes and hands out food and is of service to the monks that live in very impoverished state in the monasteries and hands out food to the poor. So her birthday is a service day to others. And I thought that is really beautiful and one ady opposite of America where it's all about celebrating ourselves and getting cake and presents for ourselves.

Yeah, that's a great story. So I mentioned what spirituality means to me about just being connected to the things that matter most. What is a working definition for you?

Yeah, that's a great story. So I mentioned what spirituality means to me about just being connected to the things that matter most. What is a working definition for you?

Well, the Oxford Dictiontionary talks about spirituality as being being concerned with the non material aspects of life, So that goes hand in hand with what you're saying. In my faith tradition, there is a metaphor that I love to look at that helps elucidate this idea, and that is the baby in the womb. I believe, and Bahais believe in many other faith traditions, believe that there is a divine eternal aspect to myself. That is, my consciousness is not just a random assortment of molecules and neurons firing in a brain that has given me a personality and perspective, and I'm not just an elevated ape or monkey, but that my consciousness is partially connected to my corporeal existence, and it's part juices and electricity and gray matter, and it is also my consciousness the part of me that weeps at a poem, the part of me that longs for connection, that beams when I hold a baby that size when I see a sunset, That this part of myself is of this world and yet not of this world. The metaphor is the babies in the womb. So a baby in a womb. We were all in a womb, and when we were in that womb, we had no idea you and I eric that we would be on riverside dot FM, looking at each other having a profound conversation about health and wellness and love and God and spirit over microphones and the Internet and podcasting, etc. We had no idea that that existed. We were just floating in amniotic fluid, growing our arms and legs and toes and elbows and eyelashes that we were going to need in the physical world. And you know, if you were to ask a baby, hey, why are you growing these elbows and eyelashes and fingers, the baby will be like, I don't know, leave me alone. I'm just I'm fine right here floating around. It has no idea of the miraculous infinity that lies outside of the womb. It has no idea about radio Head and Miles Davis and the poetry of Ee Cummings and what the Grand Canyon looks like. And in the same regard, that's what we're doing in this physical realm. In this physical realm, we are growing our spiritual arms and legs, our spiritual toes, our spiritual eyelashes and elbows that we will need once this material body falls aside in Nirvana, in the happy hunting grounds in heaven, the next plane of existence, and what are we taking with us? You know, maybe not so much our personalities, but those qualities that we've grown in this world are qualities of kindness and humility and compassion and love and honesty. Those are our spiritual arms and legs and elbows and toes that we are taking with us on our infinite journey into the beyond. So it's really beyond heaven and hell. There's not like that kind of concept in my faith tradition of like, oh, believers are going here and non believers are going here. We're all on this journey. You know, eight billion of us are on this journey. And the journey begins in the womb, and it comes here to the physical realm and continues. So what is spirituality. It's being concerned with that journey, you know, with the accruing of those spiritual virtues of seeking like sunflowers turning to the sun, seeking to turn toward the divine impulse, and understanding that our lives are infinite and miraculous and and in incredibly short and precious while we're in our bodies. You know, I'm dealing right now. I lost two friends to cancer in the last couple of years, I've got like four friends with cancer right now. And this happens when you're in your fifties. And the comedian Neil Brennan talks about Sniper's Alley. It's like, when you get to a certain age, it's called sniper's alley because all of a sudden, the people around you start getting picked off. Boo boo boo. And it's true and it's sad, and it's heartbreaking, and it's reality, and it's part of the journey.

Well, the Oxford Dictiontionary talks about spirituality as being being concerned with the non material aspects of life, So that goes hand in hand with what you're saying. In my faith tradition, there is a metaphor that I love to look at that helps elucidate this idea, and that is the baby in the womb. I believe, and Bahais believe in many other faith traditions, believe that there is a divine eternal aspect to myself. That is, my consciousness is not just a random assortment of molecules and neurons firing in a brain that has given me a personality and perspective, and I'm not just an elevated ape or monkey, but that my consciousness is partially connected to my corporeal existence, and it's part juices and electricity and gray matter, and it is also my consciousness the part of me that weeps at a poem, the part of me that longs for connection, that beams when I hold a baby that size when I see a sunset, That this part of myself is of this world and yet not of this world. The metaphor is the babies in the womb. So a baby in a womb. We were all in a womb, and when we were in that womb, we had no idea you and I eric that we would be on riverside dot FM, looking at each other having a profound conversation about health and wellness and love and God and spirit over microphones and the Internet and podcasting, etc. We had no idea that that existed. We were just floating in amniotic fluid, growing our arms and legs and toes and elbows and eyelashes that we were going to need in the physical world. And you know, if you were to ask a baby, hey, why are you growing these elbows and eyelashes and fingers, the baby will be like, I don't know, leave me alone. I'm just I'm fine right here floating around. It has no idea of the miraculous infinity that lies outside of the womb. It has no idea about radio Head and Miles Davis and the poetry of Ee Cummings and what the Grand Canyon looks like. And in the same regard, that's what we're doing in this physical realm. In this physical realm, we are growing our spiritual arms and legs, our spiritual toes, our spiritual eyelashes and elbows that we will need once this material body falls aside in Nirvana, in the happy hunting grounds in heaven, the next plane of existence, and what are we taking with us? You know, maybe not so much our personalities, but those qualities that we've grown in this world are qualities of kindness and humility and compassion and love and honesty. Those are our spiritual arms and legs and elbows and toes that we are taking with us on our infinite journey into the beyond. So it's really beyond heaven and hell. There's not like that kind of concept in my faith tradition of like, oh, believers are going here and non believers are going here. We're all on this journey. You know, eight billion of us are on this journey. And the journey begins in the womb, and it comes here to the physical realm and continues. So what is spirituality. It's being concerned with that journey, you know, with the accruing of those spiritual virtues of seeking like sunflowers turning to the sun, seeking to turn toward the divine impulse, and understanding that our lives are infinite and miraculous and and in incredibly short and precious while we're in our bodies. You know, I'm dealing right now. I lost two friends to cancer in the last couple of years, I've got like four friends with cancer right now. And this happens when you're in your fifties. And the comedian Neil Brennan talks about Sniper's Alley. It's like, when you get to a certain age, it's called sniper's alley because all of a sudden, the people around you start getting picked off. Boo boo boo. And it's true and it's sad, and it's heartbreaking, and it's reality, and it's part of the journey.

I'm sorry to hear about all of your friends. Thank you every year getting older, I'm in my fifties. Also, is this fragility of life becomes ever more clear, which can be a positive and is all so deeply unsettling?

I'm sorry to hear about all of your friends. Thank you every year getting older, I'm in my fifties. Also, is this fragility of life becomes ever more clear, which can be a positive and is all so deeply unsettling?

Yeah, thank you. Indeed.

Yeah, thank you. Indeed.

So I'd like to turn our attention for a minute and talk about mental health, although it's going to lead us right back into soul boom here in a second. You talk about in the book about you've dealt with many mental health issues, you know, depression, anxiety, addiction. And I did an interview recently with a woman named doctor Lisa Miller. I don't know if you're familiar with her work.

So I'd like to turn our attention for a minute and talk about mental health, although it's going to lead us right back into soul boom here in a second. You talk about in the book about you've dealt with many mental health issues, you know, depression, anxiety, addiction. And I did an interview recently with a woman named doctor Lisa Miller. I don't know if you're familiar with her work.

I love Lisa Miller. She's amazing and we just had her as one of the first people on our soul Boom podcast that's coming out in a few weeks, so perfect.

I love Lisa Miller. She's amazing and we just had her as one of the first people on our soul Boom podcast that's coming out in a few weeks, so perfect.

Yes, she's wonderful. The thing in her book that really blew me away was, you know, when she began studying spirituality and she found the protective effect that it has against depression was a higher protective effect than they had seen in nearly anything else. Now it's slightly more nuanced because what she over time sort of found out was that people who suffered depression often have turned to spirituality because it's a path out. But there does seem to be a correlation between mental health and spirituality. And I would love to hear your thoughts on what things do you find most helpful you know, for your mental health overall, So if you want to talk to how spirituality informs that and then anything else that feels alive for you right now in that area.

Yes, she's wonderful. The thing in her book that really blew me away was, you know, when she began studying spirituality and she found the protective effect that it has against depression was a higher protective effect than they had seen in nearly anything else. Now it's slightly more nuanced because what she over time sort of found out was that people who suffered depression often have turned to spirituality because it's a path out. But there does seem to be a correlation between mental health and spirituality. And I would love to hear your thoughts on what things do you find most helpful you know, for your mental health overall, So if you want to talk to how spirituality informs that and then anything else that feels alive for you right now in that area.

Thanks. It's really one of my very favorite topics. The Buddha, as we know, has principal teaching. He says, I teach one thing and one thing only suffering and the elimination of suffering. Life is suffering or there is suffering or the world has suffering, however you translate it. And the word suffering that was used at the time in the Sanskrit or Pali was duka, and from what I've read and understand, duka is most expertly translated as anxious discontent. And I think any addict understands anxious discontent. And I wake up with it most every day, and I'm just like, I got a little headache or my back hurts, or why didn't this work out? And I'm resentful at this person and I wish I had that, and why didn't this come? And even if it's not specific, it's just that feeling, it's that vibration of things aren't right. So I have to adjust myself away from anxious discontent toward radiant acquiescence, toward acceptance, towards gratitude. And I use tools from both the Twelve Steps and psychology and spiritual practice to help realign myself. And that's a different wolf that I feed, right, I don't feed the anxious discontent, you know, I feed gratitude and connection right empt to some days I'm better at it, some I'm not. Frankly, a lot of the time I just fail totally and get too busy to meditate, and all of a sudden it's four o'clock and I'm a dick to my wife and I think my life is shit, and I don't look around and go, you know, wow, I've actually got it really good. So the spiritual life has helped me a great deal with understanding anxious discontent. And you know, meditation certainly grounds me. But prayer is an important part of this for me because I believe that there is a power that's greater than myself, and that surrender to that power asking for help. You know, Anne LaMotte has that great book Help Thanks Wow. You know the three forms of prayer, and I can connect with this creative presence, this force, this force of beauty and light and warmth and knowledge, and that it helps me. I think that on my mental health journey, something I've always really responded to Eric is transcendence. And I think that humans have a longing for transcendence. We long to transcend out of our bodies. We don't want to just sit in our bodies. Jack off, eat a sandwich, watch some Netflix Poppo is it, take a poop and just be in our bodies. That's an important part of being a human being, but we also long for what, for love, for understanding, for beauty. We have that transcendent impulse for something to reach out beyond the mirror material. And I know that I've always had that. Maybe I'm just wired that way, but I feel like most everyone has that to a certain degree. And that's what spirituality is all about. It's all about like life is precious, life is short. The experience continues, embrace the transcendent, and in the doing we find kind of meaning and purpose. We can give the transcendent to others. It's a gift. Again. We're spiritual beings having a human experience. The list goes on and on. I mean, there's so many things I could talk about the positive benefits of spirituality, and especially for young people and the mental health epidemic that's going on right now. I know I'm rambling a little bit, but I'll just say another one that's really important is suffering. So the Buddha teaches about suffering, but the idea of suffering comes up in every faith tradition as well. And one of the things that you know, psychologists all kind of universally agree is that the younger generation does not have much resilience. There's a setback and it causes a big breakdown. There's a difficulty and they don't know what to do. There's a fear of an obstacle, and so that shuts them down. It's a big generality for those you know under twenty eight or thirty right now, but this is a big tendency. And I think that spirituality provides a context for suffering, Like what is suffering? What is the purpose of suffering? Suffering exists, There's ways to detach from suffering, there's ways to overcome suffering, there's ways to develop determination to pierce through suffering. But suffering is a necessary part of the spiritual struggle. And we feel pain so that we can feel joy and we have something to compare it with. And it is through suffering that we grow our resilience. You know, when you go to the gym, you're lifting weights, what are you doing? You're breaking down the muscle fibers. You're literally tearing them so that they grow back stronger. And this is part of what it is to be a spiritual being in having a human experience. The list goes on and on.

Thanks. It's really one of my very favorite topics. The Buddha, as we know, has principal teaching. He says, I teach one thing and one thing only suffering and the elimination of suffering. Life is suffering or there is suffering or the world has suffering, however you translate it. And the word suffering that was used at the time in the Sanskrit or Pali was duka, and from what I've read and understand, duka is most expertly translated as anxious discontent. And I think any addict understands anxious discontent. And I wake up with it most every day, and I'm just like, I got a little headache or my back hurts, or why didn't this work out? And I'm resentful at this person and I wish I had that, and why didn't this come? And even if it's not specific, it's just that feeling, it's that vibration of things aren't right. So I have to adjust myself away from anxious discontent toward radiant acquiescence, toward acceptance, towards gratitude. And I use tools from both the Twelve Steps and psychology and spiritual practice to help realign myself. And that's a different wolf that I feed, right, I don't feed the anxious discontent, you know, I feed gratitude and connection right empt to some days I'm better at it, some I'm not. Frankly, a lot of the time I just fail totally and get too busy to meditate, and all of a sudden it's four o'clock and I'm a dick to my wife and I think my life is shit, and I don't look around and go, you know, wow, I've actually got it really good. So the spiritual life has helped me a great deal with understanding anxious discontent. And you know, meditation certainly grounds me. But prayer is an important part of this for me because I believe that there is a power that's greater than myself, and that surrender to that power asking for help. You know, Anne LaMotte has that great book Help Thanks Wow. You know the three forms of prayer, and I can connect with this creative presence, this force, this force of beauty and light and warmth and knowledge, and that it helps me. I think that on my mental health journey, something I've always really responded to Eric is transcendence. And I think that humans have a longing for transcendence. We long to transcend out of our bodies. We don't want to just sit in our bodies. Jack off, eat a sandwich, watch some Netflix Poppo is it, take a poop and just be in our bodies. That's an important part of being a human being, but we also long for what, for love, for understanding, for beauty. We have that transcendent impulse for something to reach out beyond the mirror material. And I know that I've always had that. Maybe I'm just wired that way, but I feel like most everyone has that to a certain degree. And that's what spirituality is all about. It's all about like life is precious, life is short. The experience continues, embrace the transcendent, and in the doing we find kind of meaning and purpose. We can give the transcendent to others. It's a gift. Again. We're spiritual beings having a human experience. The list goes on and on. I mean, there's so many things I could talk about the positive benefits of spirituality, and especially for young people and the mental health epidemic that's going on right now. I know I'm rambling a little bit, but I'll just say another one that's really important is suffering. So the Buddha teaches about suffering, but the idea of suffering comes up in every faith tradition as well. And one of the things that you know, psychologists all kind of universally agree is that the younger generation does not have much resilience. There's a setback and it causes a big breakdown. There's a difficulty and they don't know what to do. There's a fear of an obstacle, and so that shuts them down. It's a big generality for those you know under twenty eight or thirty right now, but this is a big tendency. And I think that spirituality provides a context for suffering, Like what is suffering? What is the purpose of suffering? Suffering exists, There's ways to detach from suffering, there's ways to overcome suffering, there's ways to develop determination to pierce through suffering. But suffering is a necessary part of the spiritual struggle. And we feel pain so that we can feel joy and we have something to compare it with. And it is through suffering that we grow our resilience. You know, when you go to the gym, you're lifting weights, what are you doing? You're breaking down the muscle fibers. You're literally tearing them so that they grow back stronger. And this is part of what it is to be a spiritual being in having a human experience. The list goes on and on.

For me, I love where you started with. You know, Buddha teaching suffering and the end of suffering, and you kind of came all the way back to it at the end. And you know, I know what drew me to spirituality. I was probably seventeen eighteen years old, and I'd been around the Christian faith, but it just never really resonated with me. It never made sense to me. I'd been pointed into Zen Buddhism by my teacher I had in high school, and that sort of led me to the Doud aching. But I know what it was about those two works that resonated with me and sort of set me on this journey, And it was that idea that there was a way to be okay in the world, even as difficult as the world is. I was an over serious seventeen year old, but it was pretty clear to me even by then that the world could be a really difficult place and that there was an enormous amount of suffering in the world, and the thought that there was a way to not have to solve that problem by making it all go away, but instead there was a way to be okay in the midst of it. That to me was like that was the beacon, was the thing that sort of really drew me in, and that did not stop me from descending into addiction. And I often think of my addictions as you were talking about, as a search for transcendence, Right, that's what That's a lot of what that energy was, Right. Yes, I think by the end of my addiction there was probably a fair amount of hiding from pain. But in the beginning it was about connecting to joy and beauty and the insistent self being quiet long enough that I could appreciate the world in its beauty.

For me, I love where you started with. You know, Buddha teaching suffering and the end of suffering, and you kind of came all the way back to it at the end. And you know, I know what drew me to spirituality. I was probably seventeen eighteen years old, and I'd been around the Christian faith, but it just never really resonated with me. It never made sense to me. I'd been pointed into Zen Buddhism by my teacher I had in high school, and that sort of led me to the Doud aching. But I know what it was about those two works that resonated with me and sort of set me on this journey, And it was that idea that there was a way to be okay in the world, even as difficult as the world is. I was an over serious seventeen year old, but it was pretty clear to me even by then that the world could be a really difficult place and that there was an enormous amount of suffering in the world, and the thought that there was a way to not have to solve that problem by making it all go away, but instead there was a way to be okay in the midst of it. That to me was like that was the beacon, was the thing that sort of really drew me in, and that did not stop me from descending into addiction. And I often think of my addictions as you were talking about, as a search for transcendence, Right, that's what That's a lot of what that energy was, Right. Yes, I think by the end of my addiction there was probably a fair amount of hiding from pain. But in the beginning it was about connecting to joy and beauty and the insistent self being quiet long enough that I could appreciate the world in its beauty.

I just want to piggyback on what you're saying, like whether for me it was drugs, whether it was alcohol, whether it was porn, whether it was kind of like love addiction and romance codependence. You know, it was a search for several other things we've been talking about, connection and transcendence and meaning and seeking joy, seeking a way out of the insistent self to try and kind of obliterate that anxious discontent. And you know, like they say, it works until it doesn't work anymore, and then you find yourself even you know, further down in a hole. But that is that same impulse, It is that essential human, transcendent spiritual seeking impulse and I'll also say that some people have a hard time, and mostly because of how they've been raised with a certain idea of God. They have a hard time like worshiping something greater than themselves. And I think that humans always worship something greater than themselves. Everyone worships something. It's just true. There might be a couple of people listening right now. Oh that's bullshit. I don't know, but I believe it's true. It might be your career, it might be money. It might even be making your family or your spouse your higher power. It can be you know, your political party. It can be status at work. It can be workoholism. Workoholism is in contemporary America, is given a free pass. You know, if you work sixty seventy hours a week and have a couple divorces because of it, Like God bless you. You're a job creator, entrepreneur and you know, just trying to provide for their family. And I would rather substitute something more like love or beauty than that.

I just want to piggyback on what you're saying, like whether for me it was drugs, whether it was alcohol, whether it was porn, whether it was kind of like love addiction and romance codependence. You know, it was a search for several other things we've been talking about, connection and transcendence and meaning and seeking joy, seeking a way out of the insistent self to try and kind of obliterate that anxious discontent. And you know, like they say, it works until it doesn't work anymore, and then you find yourself even you know, further down in a hole. But that is that same impulse, It is that essential human, transcendent spiritual seeking impulse and I'll also say that some people have a hard time, and mostly because of how they've been raised with a certain idea of God. They have a hard time like worshiping something greater than themselves. And I think that humans always worship something greater than themselves. Everyone worships something. It's just true. There might be a couple of people listening right now. Oh that's bullshit. I don't know, but I believe it's true. It might be your career, it might be money. It might even be making your family or your spouse your higher power. It can be you know, your political party. It can be status at work. It can be workoholism. Workoholism is in contemporary America, is given a free pass. You know, if you work sixty seventy hours a week and have a couple divorces because of it, Like God bless you. You're a job creator, entrepreneur and you know, just trying to provide for their family. And I would rather substitute something more like love or beauty than that.

All right, now, let's pause for a quick good Wolf reminder, and this one is on meditation. If while you're meditating your mind wanders, you probably, like most people, treat that as a moment of failure, like, ough, my mind wandered again. But let's flip that and instead treat that as a moment of celebration because in that moment, your mind actually woke up and you were mindful of the fact that your mind wandered. So it's a win. So if we can flip that right on its head and say, oh, good job, brain, we actually make it more likely that a our brain is going to do it more often because we're training it, and b that we're going to enjoy it more. And specifically, it's about how to make you not dread meditation so much and actually find it relaxing. Check out my free meditation guide at Goodwolf dot me slash calm. So you've multiple times used the word divine. You've used the word god, which again for many people is a real turn off. And a little game that I love to play is what are other ways of saying that concept that are more welcoming and open to people who have a problem with them. And you've got a couple great ones in the book, so I thought I would read a couple that you reference, and then you can feel free to add anything else you want. To add to it, one is you reference I'm not sure how to say this person's name, but Nicholas of Kusa, a fifteenth century philosopher who said divinity is in all things in such a way that all things are in divinity. He spoke of a God who's this is the part I love, whose center, so to speak, is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere. That is such a great line. And you know you then also go on to talk about the idea of the Doo. And I just got done doing a really deep dive teaching for this AI type program that's going to be created around the doo. And you know, the dow that can be told is not the eternal Tao, but this idea that whatever we're trying to describe, when we use the word God or divine, our words are always going to fall short. Yeah.

All right, now, let's pause for a quick good Wolf reminder, and this one is on meditation. If while you're meditating your mind wanders, you probably, like most people, treat that as a moment of failure, like, ough, my mind wandered again. But let's flip that and instead treat that as a moment of celebration because in that moment, your mind actually woke up and you were mindful of the fact that your mind wandered. So it's a win. So if we can flip that right on its head and say, oh, good job, brain, we actually make it more likely that a our brain is going to do it more often because we're training it, and b that we're going to enjoy it more. And specifically, it's about how to make you not dread meditation so much and actually find it relaxing. Check out my free meditation guide at Goodwolf dot me slash calm. So you've multiple times used the word divine. You've used the word god, which again for many people is a real turn off. And a little game that I love to play is what are other ways of saying that concept that are more welcoming and open to people who have a problem with them. And you've got a couple great ones in the book, so I thought I would read a couple that you reference, and then you can feel free to add anything else you want. To add to it, one is you reference I'm not sure how to say this person's name, but Nicholas of Kusa, a fifteenth century philosopher who said divinity is in all things in such a way that all things are in divinity. He spoke of a God who's this is the part I love, whose center, so to speak, is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere. That is such a great line. And you know you then also go on to talk about the idea of the Doo. And I just got done doing a really deep dive teaching for this AI type program that's going to be created around the doo. And you know, the dow that can be told is not the eternal Tao, but this idea that whatever we're trying to describe, when we use the word God or divine, our words are always going to fall short. Yeah.

Amen, this is such a tricky one. You know. In the book Soul Boom, I have a chapter called the Notorious Good, which is all an examination of what God is and what God isn't. And I would say the conversation needs to begin with like what is God not judgmental, male, patriarchal, damning, contemptuous, those are a couple of the humanoid, you know, on a cloud. You know, to start with a list of what God is not, you know, and and.

Amen, this is such a tricky one. You know. In the book Soul Boom, I have a chapter called the Notorious Good, which is all an examination of what God is and what God isn't. And I would say the conversation needs to begin with like what is God not judgmental, male, patriarchal, damning, contemptuous, those are a couple of the humanoid, you know, on a cloud. You know, to start with a list of what God is not, you know, and and.

Really we missed beard, bearded beard.

Really we missed beard, bearded beard.

You know, I have a beard, and I know O god like certainly, but don't let that confuse your listeners. But you know, start with what God isn't. Oftentimes when people say I don't believe in God, I'll say, you know, I don't believe in the God that you don't believe in. So I went on this search. It was kind of before I was even in recovery. I was just an abject misery of mental health with anxiety and depression. And I thought because I grew up a member of the Bahai faith, and I had jettisoned the religion and spirituality to just essentially like go crazy and party in my twenties in New York and be an actor. And so I started tiptoeing back towards spiritual ideas and religious ideas. But the God thing was a big hang up. I had spent a while as an atheist and tried to have that make sense. It didn't really make sense to me. And then I was reading about Native American spirituality and in the Lakota Sioux tradition, the idea of God is known as Wakantung, the Great Mystery. And so you're asking for names of God that could allow people into a path of seeking the divine. There's one right there, the Great Mystery. I knew at the time, and I was in my late twenties, maybe twenty eight. I don't believe in God, and I don't believe in some guy patriarchal in my book, I call him sky Daddy. I don't believe in sky Daddy, but I can get behind the Great Mystery. And that was very exciting to me. And the more I kind of read about this Lakota idea, the Great Mystery, there's no personification whatsoever. This is not a guy. It's not a dude. It's not a being. It's not a demi God, it's not a demiurge. It's simply a radiant force contained in nature, and it's beyond time and space. It's in the wind, it's in the beauty of the trees, it's in the sunlight and the flowers. It's known through the majesty of mountains, it's known through all of the metaphor beauty and power contained in nature, and it also courses through our ancestors and our consciousness. And as an artist, I could get behind the Great Mystery. So that's where I started. My kind of God journey was like and I remember saying to friends of mine, like, I don't believe in God, but I do believe in Wakantanka. I believe in the Great Mystery. And so I've tried to stay there. And I talk in the book Soul Boom and also on the podcast that's coming up a lot about God as being more akin to love or art or beauty than any kind of conscious being. And when I am able to sit in that reality, I feel much closer to God. When I worship a God that is love and beauty and art and music and transcendence incarnate, then I feel most heart connected to that rather than any kind of like someone or something that has opinions and thoughts and has superpowers.

You know, I have a beard, and I know O god like certainly, but don't let that confuse your listeners. But you know, start with what God isn't. Oftentimes when people say I don't believe in God, I'll say, you know, I don't believe in the God that you don't believe in. So I went on this search. It was kind of before I was even in recovery. I was just an abject misery of mental health with anxiety and depression. And I thought because I grew up a member of the Bahai faith, and I had jettisoned the religion and spirituality to just essentially like go crazy and party in my twenties in New York and be an actor. And so I started tiptoeing back towards spiritual ideas and religious ideas. But the God thing was a big hang up. I had spent a while as an atheist and tried to have that make sense. It didn't really make sense to me. And then I was reading about Native American spirituality and in the Lakota Sioux tradition, the idea of God is known as Wakantung, the Great Mystery. And so you're asking for names of God that could allow people into a path of seeking the divine. There's one right there, the Great Mystery. I knew at the time, and I was in my late twenties, maybe twenty eight. I don't believe in God, and I don't believe in some guy patriarchal in my book, I call him sky Daddy. I don't believe in sky Daddy, but I can get behind the Great Mystery. And that was very exciting to me. And the more I kind of read about this Lakota idea, the Great Mystery, there's no personification whatsoever. This is not a guy. It's not a dude. It's not a being. It's not a demi God, it's not a demiurge. It's simply a radiant force contained in nature, and it's beyond time and space. It's in the wind, it's in the beauty of the trees, it's in the sunlight and the flowers. It's known through the majesty of mountains, it's known through all of the metaphor beauty and power contained in nature, and it also courses through our ancestors and our consciousness. And as an artist, I could get behind the Great Mystery. So that's where I started. My kind of God journey was like and I remember saying to friends of mine, like, I don't believe in God, but I do believe in Wakantanka. I believe in the Great Mystery. And so I've tried to stay there. And I talk in the book Soul Boom and also on the podcast that's coming up a lot about God as being more akin to love or art or beauty than any kind of conscious being. And when I am able to sit in that reality, I feel much closer to God. When I worship a God that is love and beauty and art and music and transcendence incarnate, then I feel most heart connected to that rather than any kind of like someone or something that has opinions and thoughts and has superpowers.

Yeah. I think Saint Augustine said, if you understand God, what you understand isn't God. Ah, You've got another line in there where you call it the essence of essences. I love that one.

Yeah. I think Saint Augustine said, if you understand God, what you understand isn't God. Ah, You've got another line in there where you call it the essence of essences. I love that one.

Also.

Also.

The Great Mystery has been sort of my fallback for a long long time. Is because I'm just like, well, ultimately all this is a mystery, and so that is something that I can towards and that I can both want to figure out and also be okay not figuring out, you know, doing both those things.

The Great Mystery has been sort of my fallback for a long long time. Is because I'm just like, well, ultimately all this is a mystery, and so that is something that I can towards and that I can both want to figure out and also be okay not figuring out, you know, doing both those things.

The God of the Christian Church, by and large is often far too similar to Zeus, and people get really hung up on that and they get angry, I don't believe in God, And what they're really saying is I don't believe in Zeus, you know. And the theologian Paul Tillic and philosopher kind of redefine God as the ground of all being and again trying to get got out of the sky and more into the ground and like being itself, interconnectedness and life itself. You know. I think there's a lot of different ways to look at this, but I think what's important is to understand that we are wired to worship, We're wired for transcendence. Prayer and devotion does not have to be to you know, an entity with a will and a beard, but connection to the greatest possible love and unity that binds us all and gives us our common humanity. And then what's even more important than that, more than any kind of belief is like what you do, who cares ultimately what you believe. Some of the best people I've ever known have been diehard atheists, serving their fellow humans, sacrificing of their time and energy and status and attention and bank accounts for other And it really is it's in what you do. It's not so much what you believe, but hopefully what you believe can guide you to be ever more altruistic.

The God of the Christian Church, by and large is often far too similar to Zeus, and people get really hung up on that and they get angry, I don't believe in God, And what they're really saying is I don't believe in Zeus, you know. And the theologian Paul Tillic and philosopher kind of redefine God as the ground of all being and again trying to get got out of the sky and more into the ground and like being itself, interconnectedness and life itself. You know. I think there's a lot of different ways to look at this, but I think what's important is to understand that we are wired to worship, We're wired for transcendence. Prayer and devotion does not have to be to you know, an entity with a will and a beard, but connection to the greatest possible love and unity that binds us all and gives us our common humanity. And then what's even more important than that, more than any kind of belief is like what you do, who cares ultimately what you believe. Some of the best people I've ever known have been diehard atheists, serving their fellow humans, sacrificing of their time and energy and status and attention and bank accounts for other And it really is it's in what you do. It's not so much what you believe, but hopefully what you believe can guide you to be ever more altruistic.

Yeah.

Yeah.

A friend of your, Stephen Phelps, talks about that a little bit you say in the book. He reminded me that the discussion of God has unfortunately been far less focused on God as a goal, a destination away of life, a rich garden of qualities to emulate, or an energy to both draw from and align with. Right, So instead of thinking of God as this thing to be worshiped, it's really about this way of being and way of engaging in the world.

A friend of your, Stephen Phelps, talks about that a little bit you say in the book. He reminded me that the discussion of God has unfortunately been far less focused on God as a goal, a destination away of life, a rich garden of qualities to emulate, or an energy to both draw from and align with. Right, So instead of thinking of God as this thing to be worshiped, it's really about this way of being and way of engaging in the world.

Yeah, James, And the Bible says faith without works is dead, and God is in what you do. And we see God revealed in what people do and how they are and how they travel through the world.

Yeah, James, And the Bible says faith without works is dead, and God is in what you do. And we see God revealed in what people do and how they are and how they travel through the world.

There's been something that it's happened to me for years, but I haven't really known how to think about it before. It tends to happen when I'm watching TV or a movie. It sometimes will happen in reading, and it happens in real life if I see it. It doesn't occur with the regularity. But if I'm watching something and someone just sort of does something, it's not like a huge thing, but it's a moment of just real kindness. I always tear up. And I think I just sort of realized there's actually a term for it. I think it's like moral elevation or something. It's something like that, But it also has something in common with me about kind of what you were just saying. It feels like something if we were going to use the word worship, right, it's something that is worth worshiping.