Hello, and welcome to The Australian's Money Positive podcast. I'm James Kirby, the worst editor at The Australian, and then welcome aboard everybody. Look, one of the things that I've tried to do on the show is to give you a diverse range of views on the matter as we cover. I try to range beyond what you might call the usual suspects, which you get a lot in financial podcasts. Understandably enough. So my guest today is one of the youngest I've had on the show. He is twenty four. Very interesting guest as you can imagine, Taj Pebari. He's written a book called Young, Dumb and Financially Independent, and I talked to him before the show and we've ran through some of the things we might talk about, and I made the point to him that I'm going to start with difficult question because I did a book, a general book in fact, was the original edition of Investment for Dummies, which was they were a big brand at the time, still a big brand, I suppose, and it was an encyclopedic introduction to all things finance.

Hello, and welcome to The Australian's Money Positive podcast. I'm James Kirby, the worst editor at The Australian, and then welcome aboard everybody. Look, one of the things that I've tried to do on the show is to give you a diverse range of views on the matter as we cover. I try to range beyond what you might call the usual suspects, which you get a lot in financial podcasts. Understandably enough. So my guest today is one of the youngest I've had on the show. He is twenty four. Very interesting guest as you can imagine, Taj Pebari. He's written a book called Young, Dumb and Financially Independent, and I talked to him before the show and we've ran through some of the things we might talk about, and I made the point to him that I'm going to start with difficult question because I did a book, a general book in fact, was the original edition of Investment for Dummies, which was they were a big brand at the time, still a big brand, I suppose, and it was an encyclopedic introduction to all things finance.

But I was.

But I was.

I don't know, let me think thirty one, thirty two thirty three thirty four, maybe, so I was about ten years older than Dantaj. And why I wanted to bring that up is because I will say to you, Taj Bapari, what kind of twenty four year old tell our audience about investing in finance when you haven't had enormous experience of cycles and life experience.

I don't know, let me think thirty one, thirty two thirty three thirty four, maybe, so I was about ten years older than Dantaj. And why I wanted to bring that up is because I will say to you, Taj Bapari, what kind of twenty four year old tell our audience about investing in finance when you haven't had enormous experience of cycles and life experience.

Well that's true, James, I think.

Well that's true, James, I think.

Look, I started my journey in the workforce when I was fourteen years old, so I couldn't get a job, a casual job when I wanted one, so I created my own. So I really mayw celebrating my tenth year in my first decade of working for myself, and I guess through that process I've ended up learning some really weird and wonderful things. In financial literacy in particular, was one of those things that I was forced to learn when running my own business, I think built a beautiful social enterprise, and alongside that, without parent or grandparents help, I was able to, I guess, purchase my first term at eighteen, and purchase three more within four or five years thereafter. So I guess I am living braving proof that young people, especially in their twenties, can be financially independent.

Look, I started my journey in the workforce when I was fourteen years old, so I couldn't get a job, a casual job when I wanted one, so I created my own. So I really mayw celebrating my tenth year in my first decade of working for myself, and I guess through that process I've ended up learning some really weird and wonderful things. In financial literacy in particular, was one of those things that I was forced to learn when running my own business, I think built a beautiful social enterprise, and alongside that, without parent or grandparents help, I was able to, I guess, purchase my first term at eighteen, and purchase three more within four or five years thereafter. So I guess I am living braving proof that young people, especially in their twenties, can be financially independent.

And you are, and it's very impressive. Tell me you talk about school and that you mentioned financial literacy. Did you see the nap plan results that come out this. I'm sure you did it because this is one of your key areas I know, and how disappointing that napplan results are and how it never seems to improve. I mean, enormous amounts of money went in on the Gansky Plan and still we have this basic situation where based the wealthier you are, the more likely you are to do well. If your parents went to university, you're much much more likely to go to university yourself. And we have these sort of terribly it seems to me, the structural barriers. And then in financial literacy TAJ, it's not very different. I mean, in many ways similar issues, except the financial literacy scores are actually going backwards. The netline ones are bad, but they're stable in the their stable in their weakness, but financial literacy is even worse on the recent Hilda on the HILDA scores, what do you think, because you're particularly interested in this and you're involved in it, what can younger people do? And can we expect so much from schools? Anyway, if the if the broader education system is so lacking anyway in terms of its scoring, well, I think there's.

And you are, and it's very impressive. Tell me you talk about school and that you mentioned financial literacy. Did you see the nap plan results that come out this. I'm sure you did it because this is one of your key areas I know, and how disappointing that napplan results are and how it never seems to improve. I mean, enormous amounts of money went in on the Gansky Plan and still we have this basic situation where based the wealthier you are, the more likely you are to do well. If your parents went to university, you're much much more likely to go to university yourself. And we have these sort of terribly it seems to me, the structural barriers. And then in financial literacy TAJ, it's not very different. I mean, in many ways similar issues, except the financial literacy scores are actually going backwards. The netline ones are bad, but they're stable in the their stable in their weakness, but financial literacy is even worse on the recent Hilda on the HILDA scores, what do you think, because you're particularly interested in this and you're involved in it, what can younger people do? And can we expect so much from schools? Anyway, if the if the broader education system is so lacking anyway in terms of its scoring, well, I think there's.

Probably a couple of points that James I think the idea of. In all honesty, now I've not seen the Naplin results. I fileself as a student who went through a napliner many years. I think there's the divide between success and traditional education, and I guess the needs of the real world have never been more clear. Right, the value of a school based qualification or a university degree in particular, has changed. Now if I'm going to a doctor, I'm going to get a surgery. Now I want my doctor and my surgeon to have a university degree. Right, I would feel far more comfortable, and I probably wouldn't see a doctor unless they had that qualification. Same thing with a lawyer, some of those technical professions. But for most of the population, the qualification, the certificate really is a mere indication of seat time served rather than mastery and a genuine proficiency or an understanding of a particular skill. I took that rope. I finished school. I just passed, but I built up a number of portfolio of skills in lots of different areas that I was passionate about interesting, and I guess those skills actually mix something because I was able to deliver and demonstrate those skills in the real world alongside school. So I think there's a obviously, if we're measuring the wrong thing in nap plan is a great indication of measuring young people on a very narrow set of skills that may or may not.

Probably a couple of points that James I think the idea of. In all honesty, now I've not seen the Naplin results. I fileself as a student who went through a napliner many years. I think there's the divide between success and traditional education, and I guess the needs of the real world have never been more clear. Right, the value of a school based qualification or a university degree in particular, has changed. Now if I'm going to a doctor, I'm going to get a surgery. Now I want my doctor and my surgeon to have a university degree. Right, I would feel far more comfortable, and I probably wouldn't see a doctor unless they had that qualification. Same thing with a lawyer, some of those technical professions. But for most of the population, the qualification, the certificate really is a mere indication of seat time served rather than mastery and a genuine proficiency or an understanding of a particular skill. I took that rope. I finished school. I just passed, but I built up a number of portfolio of skills in lots of different areas that I was passionate about interesting, and I guess those skills actually mix something because I was able to deliver and demonstrate those skills in the real world alongside school. So I think there's a obviously, if we're measuring the wrong thing in nap plan is a great indication of measuring young people on a very narrow set of skills that may or may not.

Be important in the real world.

Be important in the real world.

What we like to see when it comes to financial literacy, for example, the teachers want to teach these sort of things, James, but if they don't feel qualified to do it themselves, then we're probably going.

What we like to see when it comes to financial literacy, for example, the teachers want to teach these sort of things, James, but if they don't feel qualified to do it themselves, then we're probably going.

To have a pretty tricky situation.

To have a pretty tricky situation.

That's probably the case we're in rat now, where teachers don't necessarily feel fully qualify themselves to deliver their financial literacy education, and therefore the theoretical knowledge that I guess the curriculum has built into the maths curriculum is being used which isn't overly useful one hundred percent useful in the actual real world, and that's what we're looking at solving.

That's probably the case we're in rat now, where teachers don't necessarily feel fully qualify themselves to deliver their financial literacy education, and therefore the theoretical knowledge that I guess the curriculum has built into the maths curriculum is being used which isn't overly useful one hundred percent useful in the actual real world, and that's what we're looking at solving.

I'd love to ask you a couple of questions just on the hop era, and I know we had a I know we had a plan, but we're varying from it already, but I'm sure you'll be able to wing it with me. Do you think when they measure a Naplin and even financial literacy, it's all about numeracy. A lot of it hangs on numeracy. Do you think that numeracy in and of itself is fundamental to investment or business success?

I'd love to ask you a couple of questions just on the hop era, and I know we had a I know we had a plan, but we're varying from it already, but I'm sure you'll be able to wing it with me. Do you think when they measure a Naplin and even financial literacy, it's all about numeracy. A lot of it hangs on numeracy. Do you think that numeracy in and of itself is fundamental to investment or business success?

Yeah?

Yeah?

Absolutely, we need young people who can count.

Absolutely, we need young people who can count.

I fundamentally believe that every single young person needs to have a base level of Matt's understanding, and that's wonderful. I think the issue comes when we start asking young people have a basic understanding. You've how to do a long division, but they can't tell you how interest rates work or compound interest works.

I fundamentally believe that every single young person needs to have a base level of Matt's understanding, and that's wonderful. I think the issue comes when we start asking young people have a basic understanding. You've how to do a long division, but they can't tell you how interest rates work or compound interest works.

And I think that's a problem.

And I think that's a problem.

Can I rephrase the question. You left school and you went straight in. You have a social enterprise, growing social enterprise, You've written a business investment book, and you also have multiple property interests. Let me rephrase the question. Do you think the ability to successfully invest is in need to some degree?

Can I rephrase the question. You left school and you went straight in. You have a social enterprise, growing social enterprise, You've written a business investment book, and you also have multiple property interests. Let me rephrase the question. Do you think the ability to successfully invest is in need to some degree?

Perhaps for some, but I think overall it's something that you can learn in many cases for a base level of financial understanding. It's a skill and you can learn it, but you need to know where to.

Perhaps for some, but I think overall it's something that you can learn in many cases for a base level of financial understanding. It's a skill and you can learn it, but you need to know where to.

Learn it from.

Learn it from.

If you don't have two parents that have been in the workforce or have got some level of financial literacy themselves, the odds of you getting in school.

If you don't have two parents that have been in the workforce or have got some level of financial literacy themselves, the odds of you getting in school.

Was very little.

Was very little.

So you've got to learn from somewhere. And that's the big question mark. Where do you actually learn that from?

So you've got to learn from somewhere. And that's the big question mark. Where do you actually learn that from?

So where did you learn it from?

So where did you learn it from?

Look, James, So I did finish school. I finished grade twelve, which was great.

Look, James, So I did finish school. I finished grade twelve, which was great.

I just had the attendance to get my certificate of education, so that was wonderful. But I had two parents that cared about me and loved me. One parent, my dad, He couldn't afford to go to university in East Africa, so he went straight into the workforce, and I guess got a really good taste of the world of work from a young age. Mum, on the other hand, she spent a long time in university, went back to university and is in the workforce right now. So I had two parents that worked, and I think the idea of having two parents that work is not novel. But when we used to go out or when we used to sit around for dinner at home, they wouldn't shy away from having discussions about how much they've got to pay on their credit cards. They didn't shy away from discussions about their.

I just had the attendance to get my certificate of education, so that was wonderful. But I had two parents that cared about me and loved me. One parent, my dad, He couldn't afford to go to university in East Africa, so he went straight into the workforce, and I guess got a really good taste of the world of work from a young age. Mum, on the other hand, she spent a long time in university, went back to university and is in the workforce right now. So I had two parents that worked, and I think the idea of having two parents that work is not novel. But when we used to go out or when we used to sit around for dinner at home, they wouldn't shy away from having discussions about how much they've got to pay on their credit cards. They didn't shy away from discussions about their.

Home loans or home loan.

Home loans or home loan.

They didn't shy away from discussions about how much things in the.

They didn't shy away from discussions about how much things in the.

Real world cost.

Real world cost.

And that wasn't just something that started when I was a teenager. These conversations were happening from when I was in primary school. These were just basic household conversations I was having.

And that wasn't just something that started when I was a teenager. These conversations were happening from when I was in primary school. These were just basic household conversations I was having.

Telling me that it was very useful, obviously, but they weren't entrepreneurs like you are.

Telling me that it was very useful, obviously, but they weren't entrepreneurs like you are.

I guess dad ended up starting a business a couple of years ago, so he did his toes into the world of small business. But I guess he both parents were in work. They both worked for someone. They saw the value of hard work, and they never shied away from financial discussions or even just hard work conversations in front of us. And I think that was probably it taught us that work. You've got a workout in particular.

I guess dad ended up starting a business a couple of years ago, so he did his toes into the world of small business. But I guess he both parents were in work. They both worked for someone. They saw the value of hard work, and they never shied away from financial discussions or even just hard work conversations in front of us. And I think that was probably it taught us that work. You've got a workout in particular.

It's terrific. There's so much I want to cover with you. We'll take a short break. Before I do take that break, I will hit reverse and remind the audience what your main operation is. I know we mentioned the book, but you could give them one an elevator pitch on what your daily on. What as is the group that you're best known.

It's terrific. There's so much I want to cover with you. We'll take a short break. Before I do take that break, I will hit reverse and remind the audience what your main operation is. I know we mentioned the book, but you could give them one an elevator pitch on what your daily on. What as is the group that you're best known.

For, totally, James.

For, totally, James.

So it's called the ASE Group, and we do light skills education, employment programs and self employment programs for all these of all ages. We start with young people aged three years old, so in kindergarten, and we take them all the way up until like our oldest participants like seventy three years old, so it covers the whole spectrum and we really equip them with this adulting skill that aren't taught in traditional class frames.

So it's called the ASE Group, and we do light skills education, employment programs and self employment programs for all these of all ages. We start with young people aged three years old, so in kindergarten, and we take them all the way up until like our oldest participants like seventy three years old, so it covers the whole spectrum and we really equip them with this adulting skill that aren't taught in traditional class frames.

Very good, Okay, we'll take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Hello and welcome back to The Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. I'm James Kirby Well, the editor at The Australian, talking to Taj Papari of the AC Group and author of Young, Dumb and Financially Independent. I will say that I had a look at the book, Taj, and I'm familiar obviously with some of the basics that you needed to impart to your readers and very young readers, which is great, and I'm delighted that you're doing that sort of work. Can I just zone in on one thing about financial advice because you mentioned how you need to learn right and my show and this show is really for investors primarily. Lot of people have their own businesses, but it's about the investment point when they go to invest. It might be investing in property, might be investing on the share market, it might be investing in their own super whatever way they want to approach it. So this issue of advice is very central to everybody. Tell me your instinctive perception, if you would, of the financial advice scene that is open to people in Australia.

Very good, Okay, we'll take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Hello and welcome back to The Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. I'm James Kirby Well, the editor at The Australian, talking to Taj Papari of the AC Group and author of Young, Dumb and Financially Independent. I will say that I had a look at the book, Taj, and I'm familiar obviously with some of the basics that you needed to impart to your readers and very young readers, which is great, and I'm delighted that you're doing that sort of work. Can I just zone in on one thing about financial advice because you mentioned how you need to learn right and my show and this show is really for investors primarily. Lot of people have their own businesses, but it's about the investment point when they go to invest. It might be investing in property, might be investing on the share market, it might be investing in their own super whatever way they want to approach it. So this issue of advice is very central to everybody. Tell me your instinctive perception, if you would, of the financial advice scene that is open to people in Australia.

Yeah, I guess, James. Look it's tricky.

Yeah, I guess, James. Look it's tricky.

I think the people that I guess need financial advice the ones that can't perhaps afford it, And I think that's unfortunate. We've seen the rise of these wonderful, some wonderful influences that young people have been so attracted to. The generally, the young people that need this advice are the ones that can't afford it. They're in part time casualized work and therefore looking for any way to grow in their lives. They're turning to social media and sometimes they're getting some really poor advice because they quite simply just can't afford real, authentic from an expert. I think the idea that a financial advisor and in some cases is out of reach for some young people, and that's why they're turning to social media to get their advice from that.

I think the people that I guess need financial advice the ones that can't perhaps afford it, And I think that's unfortunate. We've seen the rise of these wonderful, some wonderful influences that young people have been so attracted to. The generally, the young people that need this advice are the ones that can't afford it. They're in part time casualized work and therefore looking for any way to grow in their lives. They're turning to social media and sometimes they're getting some really poor advice because they quite simply just can't afford real, authentic from an expert. I think the idea that a financial advisor and in some cases is out of reach for some young people, and that's why they're turning to social media to get their advice from that.

Yes, And what do you think of the conundrum that they face? Is there a middle ground between finn influencers who are terribly varied in quality and I worry about the banality. Basically, often of the advice is, for want of a better word, that I see there. Sometimes it's okay, sometimes it's absolutely dreadful. And then at the other end there's financial advisors they want five thousand dollars when you walk in the door. What can we do?

Yes, And what do you think of the conundrum that they face? Is there a middle ground between finn influencers who are terribly varied in quality and I worry about the banality. Basically, often of the advice is, for want of a better word, that I see there. Sometimes it's okay, sometimes it's absolutely dreadful. And then at the other end there's financial advisors they want five thousand dollars when you walk in the door. What can we do?

Is there?

Is there?

What can younger people do?

What can younger people do?

Yeah?

Yeah?

Like, I think obviously everyone who's doing this is an animal. They've got to make their own decisions, and I think the more options the better. They've got to make a decision on which option ultimately is right for them. I think finfluences can be wonderful. I think they've exposed a lot more young people that wouldn't necessarily be thinking about their careers to the big, wide world of finances, So in that from a place of an introduction, I think that's fantastic. We also know that young people have a very low attention span. Now I'm twenty four, I'm in the heart of gen Z, not a huge user of social media, but my attension spend is far lower than the average human being. I think as we go from gen Z to gen Alpha, that's only getting more more significant. And that's why quick thirty forty second reels on Instagram or TikTok teaching them about a particular area of finances so captivating. Obviously that's not practical, that method or that medium of education is not practical for giving personalized financial advice, but actually recognizing that young people are disengaging far quicker than everyone else, and obviously that's why they're going to social media to get that advice. I think very boring, But there's got to be some level of toning it down and making a lot more youth friendly to get more young people to actually use proper formal advice mechanisms, not your social.

Like, I think obviously everyone who's doing this is an animal. They've got to make their own decisions, and I think the more options the better. They've got to make a decision on which option ultimately is right for them. I think finfluences can be wonderful. I think they've exposed a lot more young people that wouldn't necessarily be thinking about their careers to the big, wide world of finances, So in that from a place of an introduction, I think that's fantastic. We also know that young people have a very low attention span. Now I'm twenty four, I'm in the heart of gen Z, not a huge user of social media, but my attension spend is far lower than the average human being. I think as we go from gen Z to gen Alpha, that's only getting more more significant. And that's why quick thirty forty second reels on Instagram or TikTok teaching them about a particular area of finances so captivating. Obviously that's not practical, that method or that medium of education is not practical for giving personalized financial advice, but actually recognizing that young people are disengaging far quicker than everyone else, and obviously that's why they're going to social media to get that advice. I think very boring, But there's got to be some level of toning it down and making a lot more youth friendly to get more young people to actually use proper formal advice mechanisms, not your social.

Media boring but worthy. Hey, I'm going to pepper you with a couple of quick questions. Okay, what do you think is the most common misconceptions that people younger people make about finance and investing.

Media boring but worthy. Hey, I'm going to pepper you with a couple of quick questions. Okay, what do you think is the most common misconceptions that people younger people make about finance and investing.

Look, I think we're seeing so much doom and gloom James about buying your home, and if that's your asset of choice, fantastic For me, it was.

Look, I think we're seeing so much doom and gloom James about buying your home, and if that's your asset of choice, fantastic For me, it was.

I believe in it.

I believe in it.

It's something that I decided to pursue from a young age.

It's something that I decided to pursue from a young age.

There's so much deerm and.

There's so much deerm and.

Gloom that buying a house, or buying your first home is it is just not going to happen for this generation.

Gloom that buying a house, or buying your first home is it is just not going to happen for this generation.

And I think that's crazy.

And I think that's crazy.

Sorry, you think it's crazy because you think you should have You think you should have a more confident attitude.

Sorry, you think it's crazy because you think you should have You think you should have a more confident attitude.

Absolutely, it's entirely possible for young people. We float these big numbers about media and housing prices across the country and yeah, they look large, and that's well, that's what it is. But statistically, there's fifty percent of hours underneath that that are a lot cheaper. So I guess young people don't necessarily need to buy an average house. They also don't need to buy their dream home. And I think if we look at and expose young people to the fact that housing isn't that.

Absolutely, it's entirely possible for young people. We float these big numbers about media and housing prices across the country and yeah, they look large, and that's well, that's what it is. But statistically, there's fifty percent of hours underneath that that are a lot cheaper. So I guess young people don't necessarily need to buy an average house. They also don't need to buy their dream home. And I think if we look at and expose young people to the fact that housing isn't that.

Doom and glowing. And that's just one example.

Doom and glowing. And that's just one example.

That it's entirely possible to start laying down foundations from a young age. And I think, be that housing, be that their basic share portfolios, start young, start learning young, read a lot, consume a significant amount of information. I think as soon you begin that journey, the happier hopefully they'll be in the future.

That it's entirely possible to start laying down foundations from a young age. And I think, be that housing, be that their basic share portfolios, start young, start learning young, read a lot, consume a significant amount of information. I think as soon you begin that journey, the happier hopefully they'll be in the future.

Okay, I like your to tell me you're familiar are with the show recently on the Fire movement. People love to grab a concept and you know, fire, financial independence, retire early, and we were talking about social media and influencers, lots of that. That Fire movement gets a lot of attention. Do you think it's a realistic path to followed that you could retire early? And what do you think you might have to do to achieve that?

Okay, I like your to tell me you're familiar are with the show recently on the Fire movement. People love to grab a concept and you know, fire, financial independence, retire early, and we were talking about social media and influencers, lots of that. That Fire movement gets a lot of attention. Do you think it's a realistic path to followed that you could retire early? And what do you think you might have to do to achieve that?

As you put it, everything's got to be done in moderation.

As you put it, everything's got to be done in moderation.

The idea of not having any friends and if you don't have any friends, you don't have any expenses and you can retire early is I guess maybe appealing to an interesting to an interesting introvert who genuinely just wants to retire in the middle of nowhere in a caravan and their friends land. And that's fine. But I think in moderation. That's not such a bad thing. Take everything, like anything in life, whether it be sugar, gingerbe or whatever. Everything in moderation, I think the same thing. For the principle, I think it can equip young people in particular with some good overall financial habits. But again, everything in moderation, and that's probably a really good, a good one.

The idea of not having any friends and if you don't have any friends, you don't have any expenses and you can retire early is I guess maybe appealing to an interesting to an interesting introvert who genuinely just wants to retire in the middle of nowhere in a caravan and their friends land. And that's fine. But I think in moderation. That's not such a bad thing. Take everything, like anything in life, whether it be sugar, gingerbe or whatever. Everything in moderation, I think the same thing. For the principle, I think it can equip young people in particular with some good overall financial habits. But again, everything in moderation, and that's probably a really good, a good one.

All right, let me try something else with you, you're twenty four. If you walk up tomorrow and you're thirty four, and you're two small kids and a large mortgage, and let's just say, for to make it even more interesting, that your career was going through a more difficult patch than it is at the moment. For whatever purpose, do you think your attitude and the concepts you've put forward in your book about financial independence and the approach would change in any fashion.

All right, let me try something else with you, you're twenty four. If you walk up tomorrow and you're thirty four, and you're two small kids and a large mortgage, and let's just say, for to make it even more interesting, that your career was going through a more difficult patch than it is at the moment. For whatever purpose, do you think your attitude and the concepts you've put forward in your book about financial independence and the approach would change in any fashion.

Look, James, well, I don't have any human kids. I do have two cat kids and a couple of seven figure mortgages. So yes, While obviously the specific pressures that I may face at thirty three with two human children may differ, I think that the fundamentals are the same. So many Aussies aren't living within their means, and that might be in many cases, in my opinion, it's it is out of choice. You look at young people buying cars a change. Does a seventeen year old in school actually need a car. It's become a writer passage for many sixteens and seventeens when they get learn a license or their peace. But I don't believe young people need a car. They could put that money towards something far more constructive, to set them up for life. Now at thirty three, I sort of feel that everything you've got to Hopefully you've got a decent job, you've got a decent career. You might be struggling, but I don't think any of the principles would would change. The fundamentals would be the same, because I believe you live within your me.

Look, James, well, I don't have any human kids. I do have two cat kids and a couple of seven figure mortgages. So yes, While obviously the specific pressures that I may face at thirty three with two human children may differ, I think that the fundamentals are the same. So many Aussies aren't living within their means, and that might be in many cases, in my opinion, it's it is out of choice. You look at young people buying cars a change. Does a seventeen year old in school actually need a car. It's become a writer passage for many sixteens and seventeens when they get learn a license or their peace. But I don't believe young people need a car. They could put that money towards something far more constructive, to set them up for life. Now at thirty three, I sort of feel that everything you've got to Hopefully you've got a decent job, you've got a decent career. You might be struggling, but I don't think any of the principles would would change. The fundamentals would be the same, because I believe you live within your me.

Do you have a car?

Do you have a car?

I don't now, Actually no, I don't have a license, actually, James. So when I was buying my first terms, i'd be taking a bus with my electric skirter and then i'd electric skirt to all the opens. And that's what I've done up until we bought one a couple of months ago and I skirted to the settlement. So I guess it's something that I've done and still do. I guess it's I believe there would be absolutely no difference.

I don't now, Actually no, I don't have a license, actually, James. So when I was buying my first terms, i'd be taking a bus with my electric skirter and then i'd electric skirt to all the opens. And that's what I've done up until we bought one a couple of months ago and I skirted to the settlement. So I guess it's something that I've done and still do. I guess it's I believe there would be absolutely no difference.

There was that Tony Robbins quote.

There was that Tony Robbins quote.

When people are about to die or succeed, they tend they tend to succeed, right, And if you were in that position and you were struggling, it's really a matter of wanting opinion. And I guess I don't say that as someone who's grown up. Yes, I went to a good school and I had two parents that loved me. But my first business at nineteen ran out of money, and we got ourselves out of that with just strong, hard decisions. And I think that would be no different if we were going to do it again.

When people are about to die or succeed, they tend they tend to succeed, right, And if you were in that position and you were struggling, it's really a matter of wanting opinion. And I guess I don't say that as someone who's grown up. Yes, I went to a good school and I had two parents that loved me. But my first business at nineteen ran out of money, and we got ourselves out of that with just strong, hard decisions. And I think that would be no different if we were going to do it again.

Do you think I just wanted to finish on this taj? But I find I certainly find it very interesting peppering you with these questions. Do you think do you perceive even that your attitude towards risk might decline as you get older? Have you even further happening already?

Do you think I just wanted to finish on this taj? But I find I certainly find it very interesting peppering you with these questions. Do you think do you perceive even that your attitude towards risk might decline as you get older? Have you even further happening already?

Of course?

Of course?

I think I was far more open to trying different types of things when I was pre mortgage, pre cats, pre partner. That absolutely that's natural.

I think I was far more open to trying different types of things when I was pre mortgage, pre cats, pre partner. That absolutely that's natural.

But why why is it natural?

But why why is it natural?

Well, look, I think you're conserving you're protecting. I guess what you might have built. When you don't have anything, it's a lot easier to perhaps a risk what's available. And you've actually perhaps built something, or you've got to a certain level, you want to conserve the base. And I think you've thought to do it now, and that's the phase i'men.

Well, look, I think you're conserving you're protecting. I guess what you might have built. When you don't have anything, it's a lot easier to perhaps a risk what's available. And you've actually perhaps built something, or you've got to a certain level, you want to conserve the base. And I think you've thought to do it now, and that's the phase i'men.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely, Wouldn't that disposition start to limit you as a business person an entrepreneur as you go forward?

Absolutely, Wouldn't that disposition start to limit you as a business person an entrepreneur as you go forward?

Perhaps, But I guess in my business, James, my job is to grow, but make sure that the interests of my investors are protected and make sure that in ten years time this structure is still standing. And I guess in the same way in my own personal personal life. Yeah, of course we all want to grow, but there's got to be some level of a base that that I want to keep in order for me to live the life that I want to live. And I think the same way you grow a business, you risk one hundred percent of the business every single time take a step to grow. I think the same thing would happen, and happens as perhaps you grow older.

Perhaps, But I guess in my business, James, my job is to grow, but make sure that the interests of my investors are protected and make sure that in ten years time this structure is still standing. And I guess in the same way in my own personal personal life. Yeah, of course we all want to grow, but there's got to be some level of a base that that I want to keep in order for me to live the life that I want to live. And I think the same way you grow a business, you risk one hundred percent of the business every single time take a step to grow. I think the same thing would happen, and happens as perhaps you grow older.

Okay, very good, all right, we'll be back in a Mormon folks. And we were back talking to Taj about some of his investors. Actually, I want to talk about and I want to talk about how he applies some of the principles that he explains in his book, Young Dumb and Financially Independent to his own life and his business activities. Back in the moment, Hello, welcome back to the Money Puzzle. James Kirby and Taj bah Pari. Here Taj the book Young Dumb and Financially Independent. You've been very fortunate. I've mentioned the title about five times normally when someone's on the show and they have a book. I mentioned it once. I think it's a good title. By the way, tell me it's all about being financially independent, financially smart. Here's the thing. Did you get a good deal with the publisher when you publish that book.

Okay, very good, all right, we'll be back in a Mormon folks. And we were back talking to Taj about some of his investors. Actually, I want to talk about and I want to talk about how he applies some of the principles that he explains in his book, Young Dumb and Financially Independent to his own life and his business activities. Back in the moment, Hello, welcome back to the Money Puzzle. James Kirby and Taj bah Pari. Here Taj the book Young Dumb and Financially Independent. You've been very fortunate. I've mentioned the title about five times normally when someone's on the show and they have a book. I mentioned it once. I think it's a good title. By the way, tell me it's all about being financially independent, financially smart. Here's the thing. Did you get a good deal with the publisher when you publish that book.

Look, we decided to go through that process ourselves, James.

Look, we decided to go through that process ourselves, James.

I think when we begin this process, we.

I think when we begin this process, we.

Realize that you actual you have to be very famous and you have to do something really quite incredible in order to make that pathway with the traditional publisher work. So we decided to go through that ourselves.

Realize that you actual you have to be very famous and you have to do something really quite incredible in order to make that pathway with the traditional publisher work. So we decided to go through that ourselves.

We ended up with some beautiful.

We ended up with some beautiful.

Distribution pathways, and hopefully it's going to be a really great asset for young adults and school students.

Distribution pathways, and hopefully it's going to be a really great asset for young adults and school students.

So you applied your entrepreneurial zeal basically and said, I'm not going into a corporate publisher to get a miserable deal. I'm going to actually do it myself.

So you applied your entrepreneurial zeal basically and said, I'm not going into a corporate publisher to get a miserable deal. I'm going to actually do it myself.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Look, we've got our publishing arm now in case any of our future employees decided to write their own, their own own little pieces. James are all about life skills, so who knows what the next life skills might be. But absolutely I think it was a pure financial decision. We looked at the numbers on traditional we looked at the numbers going directly, and for us, it's just totally made sense.

Look, we've got our publishing arm now in case any of our future employees decided to write their own, their own own little pieces. James are all about life skills, so who knows what the next life skills might be. But absolutely I think it was a pure financial decision. We looked at the numbers on traditional we looked at the numbers going directly, and for us, it's just totally made sense.

Yes, I've entertained the listeners before with the fact that I wrote five books. Four of them were a business and one was a history. Then I stopped. I wrote five books in six years, and then I stopped because I realized I'd probably get more per hour, you know, flipping Burger somewhere. But I still get royalty checks. And I got my royalty check this year and I think it was one hundred and forty five dollars.

Yes, I've entertained the listeners before with the fact that I wrote five books. Four of them were a business and one was a history. Then I stopped. I wrote five books in six years, and then I stopped because I realized I'd probably get more per hour, you know, flipping Burger somewhere. But I still get royalty checks. And I got my royalty check this year and I think it was one hundred and forty five dollars.

Oh well, congratulations, that's one hundred and forty five dollars in the right direction.

Oh well, congratulations, that's one hundred and forty five dollars in the right direction.

Yes, which tells me I should have done what you did. All right, very good. Tell us briefly about your link. Then you're with AC. You explained the business and obviously in a way I don't want to call it an entrepreneurial school, but this an element of that too is and this element of financial literacy, initiative and agency. There you have some interesting investors. You had an investor that's very well known, celebrity investor. Really tell us about that.

Yes, which tells me I should have done what you did. All right, very good. Tell us briefly about your link. Then you're with AC. You explained the business and obviously in a way I don't want to call it an entrepreneurial school, but this an element of that too is and this element of financial literacy, initiative and agency. There you have some interesting investors. You had an investor that's very well known, celebrity investor. Really tell us about that.

We do so, I guess we're a social enterprise but everything. We've got some great impact investors. And one of them is Steve Baxter, who used to be on Shot Tank and I guess Steve and I'd known each other for many years. I actually went to his office when I was fifteen to pitch my first idea to him, and I wore my dad's suit, and I guess saw him on a weekend. He made the time on all weekend and he hated my idea. I think I walked out of the room in tears, and we ended up just keeping in touch, and a couple of years ago he jumped onto this business.

We do so, I guess we're a social enterprise but everything. We've got some great impact investors. And one of them is Steve Baxter, who used to be on Shot Tank and I guess Steve and I'd known each other for many years. I actually went to his office when I was fifteen to pitch my first idea to him, and I wore my dad's suit, and I guess saw him on a weekend. He made the time on all weekend and he hated my idea. I think I walked out of the room in tears, and we ended up just keeping in touch, and a couple of years ago he jumped onto this business.

I see, what was the idea he rejected and did he like it when you have? Now?

I see, what was the idea he rejected and did he like it when you have? Now?

It was teaching kids about digital literacy, which I really thought was right up his alleys as this tech tycoon, and we wanted to create twenty first century legos, so rather than just using like boring plastic bricks, get young people to actually build a connect the pieces of a motherboard and the flex cables.

It was teaching kids about digital literacy, which I really thought was right up his alleys as this tech tycoon, and we wanted to create twenty first century legos, so rather than just using like boring plastic bricks, get young people to actually build a connect the pieces of a motherboard and the flex cables.

The RAM, CPU, etc. And at the end it would turn on and be a tablet. I walked out of that room.

The RAM, CPU, etc. And at the end it would turn on and be a tablet. I walked out of that room.

I think we wanted like one hundred thousand dollars of investment, and he said, if you sell ten thousand of these units, I'll give you a million dollars in cash. We actually ended up selling ten thousand of these in pre orders. We had to refund everyone's orders because of like some electrical safety, so we actually did sell ten thousand. We just had to refund everyone, which was unfortunate. But yeah, no, he ended up taking a liking to the idea of teaching kids.

I think we wanted like one hundred thousand dollars of investment, and he said, if you sell ten thousand of these units, I'll give you a million dollars in cash. We actually ended up selling ten thousand of these in pre orders. We had to refund everyone's orders because of like some electrical safety, so we actually did sell ten thousand. We just had to refund everyone, which was unfortunate. But yeah, no, he ended up taking a liking to the idea of teaching kids.

Okay, and he's still involved obviously with you. Is he like involved in your strategic direction?

Okay, and he's still involved obviously with you. Is he like involved in your strategic direction?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's on our advisory board.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's on our advisory board.

In terms of financial literacy more generally, because that's your passion. I know, particularly as it applies to younger people, the extra ec STRA, the Foundation, the Financial Foundation. I mean it's difficult obviously against the concept of Naplan itself that the education in Australia is well on international scores, is very poor. The financial literacy is even poorer. But the Extra have been running some big programs to the schools, basically not waiting for the government to pick up and get going, and they've been running their own programs through schools, quite quite a lot of programs through schools, and it's an interesting organization. I think they are doing quite well within that. Is there anything you think that is there any easy wins that you think have been missed in financial literacy society?

In terms of financial literacy more generally, because that's your passion. I know, particularly as it applies to younger people, the extra ec STRA, the Foundation, the Financial Foundation. I mean it's difficult obviously against the concept of Naplan itself that the education in Australia is well on international scores, is very poor. The financial literacy is even poorer. But the Extra have been running some big programs to the schools, basically not waiting for the government to pick up and get going, and they've been running their own programs through schools, quite quite a lot of programs through schools, and it's an interesting organization. I think they are doing quite well within that. Is there anything you think that is there any easy wins that you think have been missed in financial literacy society?

Yeah, James, I think there's lots of one off programs that currently take place in schools and universities where you go in for a day or an hour, two hours, you listen to someone talk about, yeah, you should budget, you should look at buying a home, or whatever that presentation might be. But they're very one off, right, They come in and they leave and everyone goes back to their day to day habits and it's business as usual. We sort of feel that there's got to be something a bit more long term. There's got to be something that's got to be just like an English class where you really get to the nitty gritty of that particular book called Shakespeare play you're writing on. There's got to be something more consistent. We sort of feel school is a great place for that, absolutely, because you're only in the kids are only in school from nine to three. University even better barely there. So the best time to teach these skills is to do it in school.

Yeah, James, I think there's lots of one off programs that currently take place in schools and universities where you go in for a day or an hour, two hours, you listen to someone talk about, yeah, you should budget, you should look at buying a home, or whatever that presentation might be. But they're very one off, right, They come in and they leave and everyone goes back to their day to day habits and it's business as usual. We sort of feel that there's got to be something a bit more long term. There's got to be something that's got to be just like an English class where you really get to the nitty gritty of that particular book called Shakespeare play you're writing on. There's got to be something more consistent. We sort of feel school is a great place for that, absolutely, because you're only in the kids are only in school from nine to three. University even better barely there. So the best time to teach these skills is to do it in school.

Do you think it should be a standard on subject in school life skills?

Do you think it should be a standard on subject in school life skills?

It should, It should cover that broader life skills life skills area. Financial literacy is obviously a fundamental, fundamental element to that, but when we actually think or.

It should, It should cover that broader life skills life skills area. Financial literacy is obviously a fundamental, fundamental element to that, but when we actually think or.

How do we do it?

How do we do it?

Encouraging young people to start a business from a young age is a perfect way to teach financial literacy, regardless of whether they care about running.

Encouraging young people to start a business from a young age is a perfect way to teach financial literacy, regardless of whether they care about running.

A business or not in the future.

A business or not in the future.

The principle of starting a business forces you to become a jack of all trades. You have to understand basic you have to read problem law statements, you've got to submit your bad statements, even just the basics.

The principle of starting a business forces you to become a jack of all trades. You have to understand basic you have to read problem law statements, you've got to submit your bad statements, even just the basics.

Even if it's not a micro business at a young age.

Even if it's not a micro business at a young age.

Will I guess ensure that young people are taught basic financial literacy and I think that's a great thing.

Will I guess ensure that young people are taught basic financial literacy and I think that's a great thing.

I want to ask you two o the things. One is about financial literacy. Do you think commercial organizations can be trusted with financially. I'm thinking of disappointment in the past with banks and investment companies when they claim to offer a financial education and that would never end and they do it in a very sophisticated manner. Yours is a social enterprise, so I wouldn't worry, but I'm talking about a profit making enterprise. Do you think they can be trusted with financial Let's just see assignments.

I want to ask you two o the things. One is about financial literacy. Do you think commercial organizations can be trusted with financially. I'm thinking of disappointment in the past with banks and investment companies when they claim to offer a financial education and that would never end and they do it in a very sophisticated manner. Yours is a social enterprise, so I wouldn't worry, but I'm talking about a profit making enterprise. Do you think they can be trusted with financial Let's just see assignments.

Not directly. No, I think we've got to be extremely careful. And we've seen some of the effects of one bank in particular and what they've done to financial literacy in Australia. I think we've got to be extremely careful with banks.

Not directly. No, I think we've got to be extremely careful. And we've seen some of the effects of one bank in particular and what they've done to financial literacy in Australia. I think we've got to be extremely careful with banks.

Are you talking about the Dollarmites pro program?

Are you talking about the Dollarmites pro program?

Yep, so James in transparency, My parents signed me up for Dollarmites in school. I got my money box in the classroom and my first mortgatu was with CBA. So I guess I was a I guess I've got nothing against CBA, but that's a perfect example that their financial literacy program wasn't about financial literacy. It was a marketing pipeline building program. I firmly believe that, I guess done right. We've got to be careful, but done right. Banks do have a place to teach financial literacy to young people. From a pure education point of view, there's got to be there's got to be some arm link between their actual marketing teams. But I think they do have a path to play in teaching young people because I guess they've got brand recognition and in schools are screaming for this sort of stuff. So they've got branches all across the country. Why not bring them into schools in a open, transparent way. But doesn't result in them actually signing up to their bank right there?

Yep, so James in transparency, My parents signed me up for Dollarmites in school. I got my money box in the classroom and my first mortgatu was with CBA. So I guess I was a I guess I've got nothing against CBA, but that's a perfect example that their financial literacy program wasn't about financial literacy. It was a marketing pipeline building program. I firmly believe that, I guess done right. We've got to be careful, but done right. Banks do have a place to teach financial literacy to young people. From a pure education point of view, there's got to be there's got to be some arm link between their actual marketing teams. But I think they do have a path to play in teaching young people because I guess they've got brand recognition and in schools are screaming for this sort of stuff. So they've got branches all across the country. Why not bring them into schools in a open, transparent way. But doesn't result in them actually signing up to their bank right there?

Right now?

Right now?

Okay, well hope spring's a time now. One nast thing you mentioned in passing that about investment property and that you had several properties. Do you see that as a business in itself? People should approach that as a business, and it's a.

Okay, well hope spring's a time now. One nast thing you mentioned in passing that about investment property and that you had several properties. Do you see that as a business in itself? People should approach that as a business, and it's a.

Look, James, I'm a capitalist.

Look, James, I'm a capitalist.

I do.

I do.

I believe it's a great business.

I believe it's a great business.

I've taken just like someone might want to sell popcorn as a side hustle between their jobs. Is my side hustle. This is my business outside of work. I love my job. I've got the best job in the world. But my pastime, the thing that I do for fun is I go to open homes, I look at property, I check out the market, and that's what I genuinely do for fun.

I've taken just like someone might want to sell popcorn as a side hustle between their jobs. Is my side hustle. This is my business outside of work. I love my job. I've got the best job in the world. But my pastime, the thing that I do for fun is I go to open homes, I look at property, I check out the market, and that's what I genuinely do for fun.

So it's a fun business for me.

So it's a fun business for me.

And you're not the only one, Taj. We have many listeners who are now you've picked up the national pastime pretty quick well.

And you're not the only one, Taj. We have many listeners who are now you've picked up the national pastime pretty quick well.

Look and investors have been demonized by many people, many outspoken people who've got very quick, one sentence slogans that fit on green colored banners. But I think it's a great business. It's a great business.

Look and investors have been demonized by many people, many outspoken people who've got very quick, one sentence slogans that fit on green colored banners. But I think it's a great business. It's a great business.

To teach you about the world.

To teach you about the world.

And even leaving aside the financial side, I've met some great people through that circle. So from a social point of view, I've built a beautiful network. So it's become a fun business but also a really great way to meet interesting, like minded individuals.

And even leaving aside the financial side, I've met some great people through that circle. So from a social point of view, I've built a beautiful network. So it's become a fun business but also a really great way to meet interesting, like minded individuals.

Okay, terrific. We might leave it at that, Taj, thank you very much for coming on the show. Taj Pabari of the Asee Group folks, you can check him out further. You can check out his book, which I've mentioned so often, and I'm going to repeat the title again, but if you've been listening to the show then you know what it is. He published it himself, which is all the more impressive. It's probably come a bit easier to do that these days. It used to be very difficult. It's got a bit easier. But congratulations on it, Taj, And thanks very much for coming on the show.

Okay, terrific. We might leave it at that, Taj, thank you very much for coming on the show. Taj Pabari of the Asee Group folks, you can check him out further. You can check out his book, which I've mentioned so often, and I'm going to repeat the title again, but if you've been listening to the show then you know what it is. He published it himself, which is all the more impressive. It's probably come a bit easier to do that these days. It used to be very difficult. It's got a bit easier. But congratulations on it, Taj, And thanks very much for coming on the show.

Thanks for having me, James, lovely to have you.

Thanks for having me, James, lovely to have you.

Okay, folks, we will resume normal transmission in next week and we will be having correspondence. We'll be doing questions and answers again. I'm delighted to say that we just had a short break on that. As you know, let's have a revival now, if we may. On the questions coming in from listeners. The email is the Money Puzzle at the Australian dot com dot au. Talk to you next week.

Okay, folks, we will resume normal transmission in next week and we will be having correspondence. We'll be doing questions and answers again. I'm delighted to say that we just had a short break on that. As you know, let's have a revival now, if we may. On the questions coming in from listeners. The email is the Money Puzzle at the Australian dot com dot au. Talk to you next week.

Foo,

Foo,