The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit organization striving to increase the sustainability of local journalism by building connections between donors and news organizations. More information on how you can support the Middle at listen Toothemiddle dot com. Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson along with our house DJ Tolliver and Tolliver. Before we get to our topic this hour, which is remote work versus in person work, we do have some big news here at the Middle. First off, this Sunday, we are partnering with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation to bring you a two hour special looking at Donald Trump's push to make Canada the fifty first state. It's going to be live across the US and Canada.

The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit organization striving to increase the sustainability of local journalism by building connections between donors and news organizations. More information on how you can support the Middle at listen Toothemiddle dot com. Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson along with our house DJ Tolliver and Tolliver. Before we get to our topic this hour, which is remote work versus in person work, we do have some big news here at the Middle. First off, this Sunday, we are partnering with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation to bring you a two hour special looking at Donald Trump's push to make Canada the fifty first state. It's going to be live across the US and Canada.

I actually heard some Canadians of in boycott and travel to the US. Yes, so are they coming to you?

I actually heard some Canadians of in boycott and travel to the US. Yes, so are they coming to you?

You come to that.

You come to that.

I'm going to them just in case they wanted to boycott. We're going to be doing it from beautiful Vancouver and that show will be in our podcast feed if you miss it live. But the other thing I wanted to talk about is the fact that because of all the news that's been happening with the Trump administration. We're launching a new weekly podcast bonus episode. It's called One Thing Trump Did. That will be a bouncing Trump Did. That's right, It's going to be about one thing Trump did. We're going to focus on one thing every week and you can only get that by subscribing to the middle as a podcast in partnership with iHeart Podcasts, on the iHeart app or wherever you get your podcast. So Tolliver, sometimes you and I are in different places, and sometimes we're sitting right next to each other. In fact, because of modern technology, this entire show team is remote spread across four states in three time zones. A remote work is, of course, something that many Americans got used to during the COVID pandemic, and a lot of them liked it. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, before the pandemic, about five percent of Americans worked from home. In the heat of it, about half of us did, and in twenty twenty three we were down to about twenty percent working remotely. Now it is bound to be even lower than that, in part because President Trump has threatened to fire federal workers who don't return to the office full time. Nobody's gonna work from home.

I'm going to them just in case they wanted to boycott. We're going to be doing it from beautiful Vancouver and that show will be in our podcast feed if you miss it live. But the other thing I wanted to talk about is the fact that because of all the news that's been happening with the Trump administration. We're launching a new weekly podcast bonus episode. It's called One Thing Trump Did. That will be a bouncing Trump Did. That's right, It's going to be about one thing Trump did. We're going to focus on one thing every week and you can only get that by subscribing to the middle as a podcast in partnership with iHeart Podcasts, on the iHeart app or wherever you get your podcast. So Tolliver, sometimes you and I are in different places, and sometimes we're sitting right next to each other. In fact, because of modern technology, this entire show team is remote spread across four states in three time zones. A remote work is, of course, something that many Americans got used to during the COVID pandemic, and a lot of them liked it. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, before the pandemic, about five percent of Americans worked from home. In the heat of it, about half of us did, and in twenty twenty three we were down to about twenty percent working remotely. Now it is bound to be even lower than that, in part because President Trump has threatened to fire federal workers who don't return to the office full time. Nobody's gonna work from home.

They're gonna be going out.

They're gonna be going out.

They're gonna play tennis, they're gonna play golf, they're gonna do a lot of they they're not working.

They're gonna play tennis, they're gonna play golf, they're gonna do a lot of they they're not working.

It's a rare person that's going to work.

It's a rare person that's going to work.

You might work ten percent of the time, maybe twenty percent.

You might work ten percent of the time, maybe twenty percent.

I don't think you're gonna work a lot more than that.

I don't think you're gonna work a lot more than that.

He's famous, so never plays golf.

He's famous, so never plays golf.

That's his view. I don't play golf. We do want to hear from you, whether you're an employee or an employer, which is better, Which is more productive? Remote or in person? Work? Tolliver, can you give the phone number please?

That's his view. I don't play golf. We do want to hear from you, whether you're an employee or an employer, which is better, Which is more productive? Remote or in person? Work? Tolliver, can you give the phone number please?

Yeah, it's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three, or you can write to us a listen to the Middle dot com. You can also comment on our live stream on YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitch.

Yeah, it's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three, or you can write to us a listen to the Middle dot com. You can also comment on our live stream on YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitch.

Let's meet our panel. Rose Horowitch is a staff writer for the Atlantic who has covered this topic. Rose, great to have you on the show.

Let's meet our panel. Rose Horowitch is a staff writer for the Atlantic who has covered this topic. Rose, great to have you on the show.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to talk about this.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to talk about this.

It's great to have you. And Courtney Garrett joins us as well. She's president and CEO of the Downtown Denver Partnership Courtney.

It's great to have you. And Courtney Garrett joins us as well. She's president and CEO of the Downtown Denver Partnership Courtney.

Welcome to you, grial to be here, thanks so much.

Welcome to you, grial to be here, thanks so much.

So before we go to the phones, Rose, you've reported that a number of big companies, including Amazon Walmart, have decided they want their workers back in the office. What is their reasoning for that? Why do they want that?

So before we go to the phones, Rose, you've reported that a number of big companies, including Amazon Walmart, have decided they want their workers back in the office. What is their reasoning for that? Why do they want that?

So?

So?

I think their reasoning is really twofold. So one is there are a number of studies that find that people are more creative when they're able to collaborate in person, and that younger workers, specifically, as they're getting trained, they get a lot more feedback when they can work in person and can be with their managers. So there is some data supporting the you that having people in person does facilitate that. And then another thing that came up a lot in my reporting was just this term called executive nostalgia, which is just a lot of these leaders came of age in a time when people were entirely working in person, and so they often have very fond memories of that. You know, it's really worked for them and they might enjoy the experience of being in the office a lot, So that could also be factoring into their thinking and what.

I think their reasoning is really twofold. So one is there are a number of studies that find that people are more creative when they're able to collaborate in person, and that younger workers, specifically, as they're getting trained, they get a lot more feedback when they can work in person and can be with their managers. So there is some data supporting the you that having people in person does facilitate that. And then another thing that came up a lot in my reporting was just this term called executive nostalgia, which is just a lot of these leaders came of age in a time when people were entirely working in person, and so they often have very fond memories of that. You know, it's really worked for them and they might enjoy the experience of being in the office a lot, So that could also be factoring into their thinking and what.

About companies like Spotify, which put an add up in Times Square that said, quote, our employees aren't children, Spotify will continue working remotely. How do they justify doing something like that?

About companies like Spotify, which put an add up in Times Square that said, quote, our employees aren't children, Spotify will continue working remotely. How do they justify doing something like that?

Well, the data on productivity when people work in person or remote is quite mixed, so there's a lot of you know, you can sort of find different data to support any view, but the consensus among you know, the researchers that I spoke to was that you know, hybrid work or you know, in person work. The advantages of that are that your employees tend to be happier, they tend to stay at the company for longer, so you avoid sort of the costly having to you know, find employees like that. Yes, so there are there are real advantages to that as well.

Well, the data on productivity when people work in person or remote is quite mixed, so there's a lot of you know, you can sort of find different data to support any view, but the consensus among you know, the researchers that I spoke to was that you know, hybrid work or you know, in person work. The advantages of that are that your employees tend to be happier, they tend to stay at the company for longer, so you avoid sort of the costly having to you know, find employees like that. Yes, so there are there are real advantages to that as well.

Courtney, you're with the Downtown Denver Partnership. A lot of cities have had a hard time adjusting to remote work because it definitely hurts the economies of city centers. What kind of an impact has remote work had in Denver?

Courtney, you're with the Downtown Denver Partnership. A lot of cities have had a hard time adjusting to remote work because it definitely hurts the economies of city centers. What kind of an impact has remote work had in Denver?

Yeah, Well, when we think about return to work, of course, we are a business based organization, so we do here and talk to our members and the companies about the corporate impact right from a larger scale. We're looking at return to office in terms of its impact on the city overall. We're thinking about the economic impact, we're thinking about the cultural impact, the sheer operations. We talk about government coming back to work, and you know, there's a really important segment there when you're trying to go pull a permit to improve your house.

Yeah, Well, when we think about return to work, of course, we are a business based organization, so we do here and talk to our members and the companies about the corporate impact right from a larger scale. We're looking at return to office in terms of its impact on the city overall. We're thinking about the economic impact, we're thinking about the cultural impact, the sheer operations. We talk about government coming back to work, and you know, there's a really important segment there when you're trying to go pull a permit to improve your house.

Right, So those types of impacts are what we look at.

Right, So those types of impacts are what we look at.

So what we've seen here in Denver is a significant shift in the overall economy and some of these things we're already starting pre pandemic.

So what we've seen here in Denver is a significant shift in the overall economy and some of these things we're already starting pre pandemic.

So you know, don't we don't blame everything on remote work. You're saying some of the right.

So you know, don't we don't blame everything on remote work. You're saying some of the right.

Yeah, So some of these trends when we started to see commercial office contraction, when we start to see companies like law firms taking smaller footprints, a lot of that was already starting in downtowns across the country and here in Denver to emerge. But suddenly this accelerator was hit. And there is a circumstance when you think about downtowns like Denver. We had one hundred and ten thousand employees in downtown in twenty twenty. Prior to you know, every city was kind of around that first week in March, right, so the official shutdown day. When you lose that kind of a daytime population in such a short amount of time, then of course your economy, your environment, everything is going to shift dramatically. I was actually in Dallas at the time. I'm about three years into my role here in exactly the same circumstance. We watched people walk down Main Street with their computer monitors in their hand.

Yeah, So some of these trends when we started to see commercial office contraction, when we start to see companies like law firms taking smaller footprints, a lot of that was already starting in downtowns across the country and here in Denver to emerge. But suddenly this accelerator was hit. And there is a circumstance when you think about downtowns like Denver. We had one hundred and ten thousand employees in downtown in twenty twenty. Prior to you know, every city was kind of around that first week in March, right, so the official shutdown day. When you lose that kind of a daytime population in such a short amount of time, then of course your economy, your environment, everything is going to shift dramatically. I was actually in Dallas at the time. I'm about three years into my role here in exactly the same circumstance. We watched people walk down Main Street with their computer monitors in their hand.

And when you walk into the office buildings in Denver right now, how full are they.

And when you walk into the office buildings in Denver right now, how full are they.

We're sitting in an overall VA CAN rate and downtown of twenty seven percent, which is a record high for Denver, and it's about seven percentage points above the national average.

We're sitting in an overall VA CAN rate and downtown of twenty seven percent, which is a record high for Denver, and it's about seven percentage points above the national average.

That being said, it varies.

That being said, it varies.

And what's interesting and I hope that we're able to talk about a little bit, is where we see the biggest distress. And again this is true of my colleagues across the country are in older office buildings that aren't necessarily historic, but they're kind of that seventies and eighties office stock that the cool tech firms and the companies that are staying and coming in. They're just ur'n amenities. There's not that common space that people are seeking now. So there's sort of these obsolete buildings, and in the areas that we do have more entertainment, more restaurant options, more for employees to do, we see a higher return.

And what's interesting and I hope that we're able to talk about a little bit, is where we see the biggest distress. And again this is true of my colleagues across the country are in older office buildings that aren't necessarily historic, but they're kind of that seventies and eighties office stock that the cool tech firms and the companies that are staying and coming in. They're just ur'n amenities. There's not that common space that people are seeking now. So there's sort of these obsolete buildings, and in the areas that we do have more entertainment, more restaurant options, more for employees to do, we see a higher return.

To office rate. Let's get to the phones because they are lighting up and Ryan is joining us from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Ryan, welcome to the middle. What do you think about remote versus in person work?

To office rate. Let's get to the phones because they are lighting up and Ryan is joining us from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Ryan, welcome to the middle. What do you think about remote versus in person work?

Very good evening.

Very good evening.

I'm much in favor of in person. I taught online for a year and a half during the pandemic and that was a very torturous experience for myself and my students. I'd just like to ask your panel their thoughts on how this how this question impacts the questions being had in education. An increasing number of educators are saying five days a week in the classroom is just not cutting it anymore. It's not necessary. But it was obvious from the pandemic that five days a week online is detrimental to student mental health and their socialization. So there's this debate about bringing a hybrid model in schools. What does your panel think about You know, if if some of the schools you know started saying, hey, half the week will be online, half will be in person, because there's gonna be a lot of working people who are gonna be like, wait a minute, like, do I need to stay home with my kids if they're not at school?

I'm much in favor of in person. I taught online for a year and a half during the pandemic and that was a very torturous experience for myself and my students. I'd just like to ask your panel their thoughts on how this how this question impacts the questions being had in education. An increasing number of educators are saying five days a week in the classroom is just not cutting it anymore. It's not necessary. But it was obvious from the pandemic that five days a week online is detrimental to student mental health and their socialization. So there's this debate about bringing a hybrid model in schools. What does your panel think about You know, if if some of the schools you know started saying, hey, half the week will be online, half will be in person, because there's gonna be a lot of working people who are gonna be like, wait a minute, like, do I need to stay home with my kids if they're not at school?

Yeah?

Yeah?

I think this is a good question.

I think this is a good question.

Ryan. Let me take that to Rose Horwitz. Rose, did you did you see comparisons between school and office in your reporting.

Ryan. Let me take that to Rose Horwitz. Rose, did you did you see comparisons between school and office in your reporting.

That didn't directly come up in my reporting? I didn't hear too much about it. You know, the possibility that schools might go hybrid. You know, that would certainly cause the issues that you bring up that you know, some parents might be working and then would need to arrange childcare. So I didn't I didn't find too much about that.

That didn't directly come up in my reporting? I didn't hear too much about it. You know, the possibility that schools might go hybrid. You know, that would certainly cause the issues that you bring up that you know, some parents might be working and then would need to arrange childcare. So I didn't I didn't find too much about that.

What about you, Courtney, did that? Have you thought about that? And how much what the schools are doing impacts what needs to happen in the office space.

What about you, Courtney, did that? Have you thought about that? And how much what the schools are doing impacts what needs to happen in the office space.

I can tell you it's very significant. We ended up losing a lot of childcare centers here in downtown Denver during the pandemic, and that's been one of the greatest barriers reported to us and employees coming back to the office, and that childcare options are incredibly limited here now.

I can tell you it's very significant. We ended up losing a lot of childcare centers here in downtown Denver during the pandemic, and that's been one of the greatest barriers reported to us and employees coming back to the office, and that childcare options are incredibly limited here now.

So we definitely hear that. We also in downtown Denver.

So we definitely hear that. We also in downtown Denver.

We have the Area Campus for Higher Education, which is a cooperative campus of four universities, about forty two thousand students. And I can tell you the reports that we hear from that campus in terms of overall mental health and the challenges that they've had in success rates of graduation have been impacted through all of this. And then of course I have to layer in as a mother of thirteen year old twins, the challenges that you face in learning and not being in person is pretty significant, but really really good question.

We have the Area Campus for Higher Education, which is a cooperative campus of four universities, about forty two thousand students. And I can tell you the reports that we hear from that campus in terms of overall mental health and the challenges that they've had in success rates of graduation have been impacted through all of this. And then of course I have to layer in as a mother of thirteen year old twins, the challenges that you face in learning and not being in person is pretty significant, but really really good question.

Let me just squeeze in a call before a break. Care Bridget is in Columbia, South Carolina. Bridget, what do you think?

Let me just squeeze in a call before a break. Care Bridget is in Columbia, South Carolina. Bridget, what do you think?

Yeah, I am all for remote work actually so totally the other side of that coin. But I work in Uxui design, which you know, creative field. I know that it was talked about a little bit about how that creativity might be limited not working in person, but I found that working remotely just opened up so many freedoms, you know, as an individual while working that are just not accessible if you're working in person. And I think that like quality of life wise, it just improves so much and I can imagine that it probably safe companies a good amount of money not to have a physical space that they have to keep for employees to be at. So I'm for remote work personally.

Yeah, I am all for remote work actually so totally the other side of that coin. But I work in Uxui design, which you know, creative field. I know that it was talked about a little bit about how that creativity might be limited not working in person, but I found that working remotely just opened up so many freedoms, you know, as an individual while working that are just not accessible if you're working in person. And I think that like quality of life wise, it just improves so much and I can imagine that it probably safe companies a good amount of money not to have a physical space that they have to keep for employees to be at. So I'm for remote work personally.

A great point about the real estate of Bridget. Thank you for calling again. Our number is eight four four four Middle that's eight four four four six four three three five three Tolliver. I am old enough to remember five years ago when everyone was touting the benefits like Bridget there of remote work, including CEOs.

A great point about the real estate of Bridget. Thank you for calling again. Our number is eight four four four Middle that's eight four four four six four three three five three Tolliver. I am old enough to remember five years ago when everyone was touting the benefits like Bridget there of remote work, including CEOs.

Yeah, including Mark Zuckerberg, although maybe he was just trying to get us in the metaverse. Think about it man conspiracies here he is on CNBC back in twenty twenty.

Yeah, including Mark Zuckerberg, although maybe he was just trying to get us in the metaverse. Think about it man conspiracies here he is on CNBC back in twenty twenty.

This overall will, I think helps spread economic opportunity more broadly across the country. There's environmental positive aspects. People are going to spend a lot less time commuting and more time just teleporting in either over video chat or eventually things like virtual reality. I just kind of feel like moving in a more remote direction and requiring our employees to rely on these tools more will help advance some of that future technology development as well.

This overall will, I think helps spread economic opportunity more broadly across the country. There's environmental positive aspects. People are going to spend a lot less time commuting and more time just teleporting in either over video chat or eventually things like virtual reality. I just kind of feel like moving in a more remote direction and requiring our employees to rely on these tools more will help advance some of that future technology development as well.

Well. That was then, but Tolliver. As of September twenty twenty three, Meta's remote work policy has tightened up, and they now require employees who are assigned to an office, because not everybody is assigned to be in an office, but those who are have to be physically present in that office for three days per week.

Well. That was then, but Tolliver. As of September twenty twenty three, Meta's remote work policy has tightened up, and they now require employees who are assigned to an office, because not everybody is assigned to be in an office, but those who are have to be physically present in that office for three days per week.

Boo, we'll be right back.

Boo, we'll be right back.

With more of the Middle. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning, in the Middle is a national call in show. We're focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically, or maybe you just want to meet in the middle. This hour, we're asking you for your thoughts on remote versus in person work. Which do you prefer? Which is more productive? Tolliver, what is the number to call in?

With more of the Middle. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning, in the Middle is a national call in show. We're focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically, or maybe you just want to meet in the middle. This hour, we're asking you for your thoughts on remote versus in person work. Which do you prefer? Which is more productive? Tolliver, what is the number to call in?

It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three. You can also write to us and listen to the Middle dot com or on social media.

It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three. You can also write to us and listen to the Middle dot com or on social media.

Jeremy, I had a hit TikTok? Did you see it this week?

Jeremy, I had a hit TikTok? Did you see it this week?

I always see your hit tiktoks? Yes, but only you because I don't look at anything else except for your TikTok, so I can stay off of TikTok. I am joined this hour by Atlantic staff writer Rose Horwich. And Courtney Garrett, CEO of the Downtown den for Partnership before we go back to the phones Rose. President Trump, in calling federal workers back to the office, has said he thinks, as we heard, people only work twenty percent of the time from home. What do we know really about the productivity of people when they are working at home.

I always see your hit tiktoks? Yes, but only you because I don't look at anything else except for your TikTok, so I can stay off of TikTok. I am joined this hour by Atlantic staff writer Rose Horwich. And Courtney Garrett, CEO of the Downtown den for Partnership before we go back to the phones Rose. President Trump, in calling federal workers back to the office, has said he thinks, as we heard, people only work twenty percent of the time from home. What do we know really about the productivity of people when they are working at home.

We know that it tends to be pretty similar to the productivity of people when they're in the office. Potentially a slight decline, but people tend to save about seventy minutes I think is the average on commuting time if they're working from home, so they do tend to put some of that time back in to work. So certainly nothing like the dramatic drops of down to twenty percent is showing up in the data.

We know that it tends to be pretty similar to the productivity of people when they're in the office. Potentially a slight decline, but people tend to save about seventy minutes I think is the average on commuting time if they're working from home, so they do tend to put some of that time back in to work. So certainly nothing like the dramatic drops of down to twenty percent is showing up in the data.

And what about the idea and you mentioned this a bit earlier, of the innovation that occurs when there's collaboration. You look at places like MIT, they design buildings so that people run into each other so that there's more innovation and collaboration. Isn't there something to that?

And what about the idea and you mentioned this a bit earlier, of the innovation that occurs when there's collaboration. You look at places like MIT, they design buildings so that people run into each other so that there's more innovation and collaboration. Isn't there something to that?

So I think that's definitely a trade off. And certainly you know the CEOs that I spoke to, and you know that we often hear speaking publicly like Jamie Diamond, you know, are very in favor of return to office because it is much easier to collaborate, It is much easier to give feedback and train workers, and you know, they can wash over people and know that they are really putting in, you know, that full day's work. So it's just sort of a trade off because workers on average, you know, one study shows that they would take forty percent of people would take a five percent pay cut to be able to work remote. And so you know, it's kind of all a balancing act.

So I think that's definitely a trade off. And certainly you know the CEOs that I spoke to, and you know that we often hear speaking publicly like Jamie Diamond, you know, are very in favor of return to office because it is much easier to collaborate, It is much easier to give feedback and train workers, and you know, they can wash over people and know that they are really putting in, you know, that full day's work. So it's just sort of a trade off because workers on average, you know, one study shows that they would take forty percent of people would take a five percent pay cut to be able to work remote. And so you know, it's kind of all a balancing act.

Knowing, yes, it's amazing, it's kind of amazing that the people would say that they would take a piccut to work remote, But it makes sense because for some that is that's a raise in itself, Courtney. Is the infrastructure there to handle everyone working in the office. We're already hearing stories that there aren't enough spaces in these federal office buildings for all the people that President Trump has called in to work to actually work in. And some would say that our roads are public transit is not up to is not sufficient for everyone to be commuting into the office.

Knowing, yes, it's amazing, it's kind of amazing that the people would say that they would take a piccut to work remote, But it makes sense because for some that is that's a raise in itself, Courtney. Is the infrastructure there to handle everyone working in the office. We're already hearing stories that there aren't enough spaces in these federal office buildings for all the people that President Trump has called in to work to actually work in. And some would say that our roads are public transit is not up to is not sufficient for everyone to be commuting into the office.

Yeah, I have to tell you, I find that pretty hard to believe when we're facing the kind of vacancy rates that we are in every city. I mean, every major downtown across the country has significant vacancy rates. In fact, there's an example here in Denver where we have a significant amount of office space that's recently been leased by the city and County of Denver because they have another building that's going under construction. So we're filling office space in that way. And I think from an infrastructure perspective, we were doing it before, right, And I think that's another thing when we look at these trends that were already there that have just been amplified and sort of taken to the extreme.

Yeah, I have to tell you, I find that pretty hard to believe when we're facing the kind of vacancy rates that we are in every city. I mean, every major downtown across the country has significant vacancy rates. In fact, there's an example here in Denver where we have a significant amount of office space that's recently been leased by the city and County of Denver because they have another building that's going under construction. So we're filling office space in that way. And I think from an infrastructure perspective, we were doing it before, right, And I think that's another thing when we look at these trends that were already there that have just been amplified and sort of taken to the extreme.

Remote work was their pre pandemic.

Remote work was their pre pandemic.

We look at our numbers and our workforce here in downtown Denver really sixty to seventy five percent of the jobs in downtown Denver before the pandemic. We're fully in person. We're a heavily heavy tech driven sector, so that you know, tends from an industry perspective to be much more of a remote based job. So I think that that might be a misnomer in my opinion, that that's a barrier.

We look at our numbers and our workforce here in downtown Denver really sixty to seventy five percent of the jobs in downtown Denver before the pandemic. We're fully in person. We're a heavily heavy tech driven sector, so that you know, tends from an industry perspective to be much more of a remote based job. So I think that that might be a misnomer in my opinion, that that's a barrier.

Well, and we know that spirit of Halloween always manages to find space to put their stores in the country. Let's go back to the fodes and Annie is in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Hi, Annie, what do you think about remote versus in person work?

Well, and we know that spirit of Halloween always manages to find space to put their stores in the country. Let's go back to the fodes and Annie is in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Hi, Annie, what do you think about remote versus in person work?

Definitely back to the office. Why I am a spouse of an employee who is working at home many days at the golf course and other outside activities. The weather is bad, there's the inside range, and if they're not out, they're constantly eating, constantly. Please back to the office, So just.

Definitely back to the office. Why I am a spouse of an employee who is working at home many days at the golf course and other outside activities. The weather is bad, there's the inside range, and if they're not out, they're constantly eating, constantly. Please back to the office, So just.

Get out, get out of my way, go back to the office, so you don't bother me, is what you're saying.

Get out, get out of my way, go back to the office, so you don't bother me, is what you're saying.

Well, not necessarily, because when he's out on the golf course, he's not bothering me. But I'm just not seeing much work being done.

Well, not necessarily, because when he's out on the golf course, he's not bothering me. But I'm just not seeing much work being done.

Can you tell me what industry he is in? Annie, You don't have to tell me the company, the industry sales, Okay.

Can you tell me what industry he is in? Annie, You don't have to tell me the company, the industry sales, Okay.

An, maybe make a couple of sales calls five minutes in the morning and he's out of the house.

An, maybe make a couple of sales calls five minutes in the morning and he's out of the house.

Yeah, Annie, thank you very much for that. You know, Rose Horwitz. That actually brings up another thing, which is something that President Trump said about people who work from home, is that they may have another job. Now, I happen to know somebody who works from home and also has a side job. It's not a full time side job, but I'm sure that his main employer doesn't know that he has a side job.

Yeah, Annie, thank you very much for that. You know, Rose Horwitz. That actually brings up another thing, which is something that President Trump said about people who work from home, is that they may have another job. Now, I happen to know somebody who works from home and also has a side job. It's not a full time side job, but I'm sure that his main employer doesn't know that he has a side job.

And that is definitely I mean, I think that's the cause of the concern on the CEO side. And we did see I think golfing rates go up, you know, since people have been working from home. So it is this real like we still have not reached an equilibrium or a settling point. Like people, there's still this huge divide where CEOs, you know, tend to think that people really aren't getting things done at home and want them to be in the office. And you know, we hear from many workers who want to be you know, able to work fully remote and flexible.

And that is definitely I mean, I think that's the cause of the concern on the CEO side. And we did see I think golfing rates go up, you know, since people have been working from home. So it is this real like we still have not reached an equilibrium or a settling point. Like people, there's still this huge divide where CEOs, you know, tend to think that people really aren't getting things done at home and want them to be in the office. And you know, we hear from many workers who want to be you know, able to work fully remote and flexible.

Wes is calling from Colorado. Wes, what do you think about remote versus in person?

Wes is calling from Colorado. Wes, what do you think about remote versus in person?

Hi?

Hi?

The anger I haven't heard yet is office gossip. When my wife and I we both work from home, when we've got someone to complain about it work, we don't do it to another employee. We don't bring down office morale. We talk to each other, take a little time throughout the day.

The anger I haven't heard yet is office gossip. When my wife and I we both work from home, when we've got someone to complain about it work, we don't do it to another employee. We don't bring down office morale. We talk to each other, take a little time throughout the day.

That I mean and and that is helpful to you as an employee. You've got to have somebody to get that off your chest.

That I mean and and that is helpful to you as an employee. You've got to have somebody to get that off your chest.

With or like our last called her husband.

With or like our last called her husband.

Yeah, well, we'll gossip a little bit and then back to work, and then I don't have to bring down morale among my co workers complaining about other co workers.

Yeah, well, we'll gossip a little bit and then back to work, and then I don't have to bring down morale among my co workers complaining about other co workers.

And Wes, do either you or your spouse have any pressure right now to go back to the office to work. No, not liless m interesting, thank you for that call. You know, one of the things Courtney that started during the pandemic, or really started to get used in a big way during the pandemic, is these chat interfaces where people did do a lot of gossip like slack, which you know, some people thought it was a good thing, some not so good. But uh, it's not. It's not an insignificant point that Wes is making about being able to talk to somebody about the just sort of the chatter that goes on in an office in a normal situation, and how it changes when people are working remotely.

And Wes, do either you or your spouse have any pressure right now to go back to the office to work. No, not liless m interesting, thank you for that call. You know, one of the things Courtney that started during the pandemic, or really started to get used in a big way during the pandemic, is these chat interfaces where people did do a lot of gossip like slack, which you know, some people thought it was a good thing, some not so good. But uh, it's not. It's not an insignificant point that Wes is making about being able to talk to somebody about the just sort of the chatter that goes on in an office in a normal situation, and how it changes when people are working remotely.

Yeah, I mean I I sort of equate that to again with our interest in downtowns and city centers, and we call it the serendipity. And you kind of referred to it related to some of these really intentionally planned corporate campuses where you're.

Yeah, I mean I I sort of equate that to again with our interest in downtowns and city centers, and we call it the serendipity. And you kind of referred to it related to some of these really intentionally planned corporate campuses where you're.

Designing these interactions that you have with people.

Designing these interactions that you have with people.

So whether it's to gossip or to create some business development or make a deal over coffee. Our interest in really providing that environment in a downtown setting is that you have a multitude of employees and corporations and businesses that are interacting on a regular basis, and you have these serendipitous moments of interaction in public space, in the in betweens, in such a dense environment. So we really feel strongly that that's still a significant asset for downtowns that we can amplify.

So whether it's to gossip or to create some business development or make a deal over coffee. Our interest in really providing that environment in a downtown setting is that you have a multitude of employees and corporations and businesses that are interacting on a regular basis, and you have these serendipitous moments of interaction in public space, in the in betweens, in such a dense environment. So we really feel strongly that that's still a significant asset for downtowns that we can amplify.

You know, Rose, Actually, I remember doing a story many years ago as a business reporter about the tunnel that was supposed to be built going into New York City from New Jersey that Chris Christy, the governor at the time, pulled the funding for the state funding for and I interviewed an economist who said, the reason everybody wants to be in New York is because your lawyer is right here, and your advertising person is right here, and your marketing person's right here, and everybody gets to interact with each other and that's why it has the most dynamic economy in the world. I wonder how you think that connects to just any office being in person and being able to interact with people.

You know, Rose, Actually, I remember doing a story many years ago as a business reporter about the tunnel that was supposed to be built going into New York City from New Jersey that Chris Christy, the governor at the time, pulled the funding for the state funding for and I interviewed an economist who said, the reason everybody wants to be in New York is because your lawyer is right here, and your advertising person is right here, and your marketing person's right here, and everybody gets to interact with each other and that's why it has the most dynamic economy in the world. I wonder how you think that connects to just any office being in person and being able to interact with people.

I definitely think that there is, you know, an important element to that, particularly if it's a job where you're really trying to be you know, more creative and come up with, you know, real innovative ideas. It can definitely be helpful to run into people. But at the same time, I know, it's interesting talking about office gossip.

I definitely think that there is, you know, an important element to that, particularly if it's a job where you're really trying to be you know, more creative and come up with, you know, real innovative ideas. It can definitely be helpful to run into people. But at the same time, I know, it's interesting talking about office gossip.

You know.

You know.

I spoke with one person who worked at Amazon who you know, was talking about how they have a real open office plan, and it was just so loud that it was so much harder for him to get things done, you know, when they are in person. So there definitely is an element of kind of reducing distractions, and you know that you show that for call center employees it actually is you know, they tend to be more productive at home because you're not constantly hearing everything going on around you.

I spoke with one person who worked at Amazon who you know, was talking about how they have a real open office plan, and it was just so loud that it was so much harder for him to get things done, you know, when they are in person. So there definitely is an element of kind of reducing distractions, and you know that you show that for call center employees it actually is you know, they tend to be more productive at home because you're not constantly hearing everything going on around you.

I actually have some web comments related to you body cut to me, look at that. Eric in Indianapolis says, I worked in a cubicle farm for thirty one years as I got older, they got harder and harder to concentrate with a person yapping nearby. I found the pandemic to be refreshing. I gave up a forty mile drive. Parking fees are more time for myself for self care. Forty miles. Okay, let's interstate Lucas and Champagne says, I think it's absurd for a guy President Trump, who spends a quarter of his time golfing and a large percentage of his remaining time working from his personal residence instead of the White House, to be casting aspersions at any of the workers in this country who fighting words.

I actually have some web comments related to you body cut to me, look at that. Eric in Indianapolis says, I worked in a cubicle farm for thirty one years as I got older, they got harder and harder to concentrate with a person yapping nearby. I found the pandemic to be refreshing. I gave up a forty mile drive. Parking fees are more time for myself for self care. Forty miles. Okay, let's interstate Lucas and Champagne says, I think it's absurd for a guy President Trump, who spends a quarter of his time golfing and a large percentage of his remaining time working from his personal residence instead of the White House, to be casting aspersions at any of the workers in this country who fighting words.

You can write in and listen to the Middle dot com, or you can call us at eight four four four six four through three. Fact three. I do want to hear this hour from a boss. If you're out there and you want to make the case one way or the other, I'd love to hear from you. And let's go to Danell, who's in eastern Texas. Danell, welcome to the Middle.

You can write in and listen to the Middle dot com, or you can call us at eight four four four six four through three. Fact three. I do want to hear this hour from a boss. If you're out there and you want to make the case one way or the other, I'd love to hear from you. And let's go to Danell, who's in eastern Texas. Danell, welcome to the Middle.

Go ahead, Hi, how are you well. I have a little bit different perspective. I am an independent artist, and I had to start taking care of my mother around the beginning of that pandemic because she's bedridden. And so I set up at my pottery studio to where I can take care of her and we don't have to pay for someone to come and be a caregiver, because that at about you know, thirty dollars an hour for the lowest cost is about six hundred dollars a day if you are looking at you know, in office hours. And I have a friend who was in marketing and they asked her, you know, she's in a similar situation. She's taking care of a parent who's bedridden, and she had to quit her job because she could not afford the cost of having someone at home while she is in the office. And I think that when so many people are struggling just to pay their bills, for the president, people are going to spend their time doing leisure sports activities. He's not speaking to the general populace in the country. He's speaking to the elite. Because I've never played golf in my life, mostly because I don't really want to. But I really don't understand, you know, if someone is able to like, if you're working at home independently, you don't have the productivity that unless you have that determination and they wouldn't keep People wouldn't keep their jobs if they weren't putting out that required a job necessities. And if they aren't, if they're in the office and they're spending time in the office, doesn't mean that they're doing a better job.

Go ahead, Hi, how are you well. I have a little bit different perspective. I am an independent artist, and I had to start taking care of my mother around the beginning of that pandemic because she's bedridden. And so I set up at my pottery studio to where I can take care of her and we don't have to pay for someone to come and be a caregiver, because that at about you know, thirty dollars an hour for the lowest cost is about six hundred dollars a day if you are looking at you know, in office hours. And I have a friend who was in marketing and they asked her, you know, she's in a similar situation. She's taking care of a parent who's bedridden, and she had to quit her job because she could not afford the cost of having someone at home while she is in the office. And I think that when so many people are struggling just to pay their bills, for the president, people are going to spend their time doing leisure sports activities. He's not speaking to the general populace in the country. He's speaking to the elite. Because I've never played golf in my life, mostly because I don't really want to. But I really don't understand, you know, if someone is able to like, if you're working at home independently, you don't have the productivity that unless you have that determination and they wouldn't keep People wouldn't keep their jobs if they weren't putting out that required a job necessities. And if they aren't, if they're in the office and they're spending time in the office, doesn't mean that they're doing a better job.

Yes, I think you know.

Yes, I think you know.

Yeah, let me let me take that over to Courtney, because you bring up an interesting point. And the one thing that stands out to me there, Courtney is it's not one size fits all. Are there industries that you're saying should come back in and there are some that just don't make sense at for the pandemic to come back into downtown Denver and fill up those office spaces.

Yeah, let me let me take that over to Courtney, because you bring up an interesting point. And the one thing that stands out to me there, Courtney is it's not one size fits all. Are there industries that you're saying should come back in and there are some that just don't make sense at for the pandemic to come back into downtown Denver and fill up those office spaces.

Well, I think you can look at it from an industry perspective, you know who's predisposed, and look at individual circumstance. Right, So this isn't necessarily a wholly one side or the other issue. Again, I point back to trends pre pandemic and work flexibility. I remember even when I was younger with my mom had flex fridays as an accountant for a defense company. Right, so this is not a brand new notion. I think it's more of a culture within companies to understand and embrace the flexibility while also ensuring productivity and ensuring that the office environment, whatever that office environment.

Well, I think you can look at it from an industry perspective, you know who's predisposed, and look at individual circumstance. Right, So this isn't necessarily a wholly one side or the other issue. Again, I point back to trends pre pandemic and work flexibility. I remember even when I was younger with my mom had flex fridays as an accountant for a defense company. Right, so this is not a brand new notion. I think it's more of a culture within companies to understand and embrace the flexibility while also ensuring productivity and ensuring that the office environment, whatever that office environment.

Is, suits the business.

Is, suits the business.

And we do advocate for the impact of this on cities to be a factor in these decisions. I think it also begs the question that our industry asks a lot is who and what are our center cities for and what is you know, it's this quintessential question of what will downtowns be or big commercial officers, And I think it gives us this opportunity to think about neighborhood amenities, to think about building more density, to be more like New York, where you have these multi dimensional environments that suit lifestyles. Right, if you're living close to your dry cleaner, close to your what we were talking about earlier, close to your grocery store, it makes it easier to care for an ailing parent.

And we do advocate for the impact of this on cities to be a factor in these decisions. I think it also begs the question that our industry asks a lot is who and what are our center cities for and what is you know, it's this quintessential question of what will downtowns be or big commercial officers, And I think it gives us this opportunity to think about neighborhood amenities, to think about building more density, to be more like New York, where you have these multi dimensional environments that suit lifestyles. Right, if you're living close to your dry cleaner, close to your what we were talking about earlier, close to your grocery store, it makes it easier to care for an ailing parent.

This is why I wanted to have you on this show this hour, because I think this is such an important part of this discussion is the lack of workers in offices has made a huge difference in cities around the country, which has caused all kinds of other issues. Let's go to Charles, who's in ann Arbor Michigan, Charles, Welcome to the middle. Your thoughts on remote versus in person work.

This is why I wanted to have you on this show this hour, because I think this is such an important part of this discussion is the lack of workers in offices has made a huge difference in cities around the country, which has caused all kinds of other issues. Let's go to Charles, who's in ann Arbor Michigan, Charles, Welcome to the middle. Your thoughts on remote versus in person work.

Well, I'm want to it's just tangential. But I'm wondering how much it relates to the national epidemic of loneliness. You know, when I worked in an office, I'm retired, but when I worked in a building with a lot of people, we would all get together on Friday afternoon after work and have some drinks. Oh, we'd get together and play on going to a ball game together, that sort of thing. And and I think now with everybody, because the loneliest academic is not just young teenage girls, although maybe having being under foot of their parents is adding to that. I don't know, but I think they're And I'm curious is how you guys feel?

Well, I'm want to it's just tangential. But I'm wondering how much it relates to the national epidemic of loneliness. You know, when I worked in an office, I'm retired, but when I worked in a building with a lot of people, we would all get together on Friday afternoon after work and have some drinks. Oh, we'd get together and play on going to a ball game together, that sort of thing. And and I think now with everybody, because the loneliest academic is not just young teenage girls, although maybe having being under foot of their parents is adding to that. I don't know, but I think they're And I'm curious is how you guys feel?

Yeah, yeah, the great point, Charles rose Horowitz, What do you think about that? You know, I was thinking also about how it might connect to our phone addiction, because we have to spend so much time on screens because where many of us are remote. But what about loneliness.

Yeah, yeah, the great point, Charles rose Horowitz, What do you think about that? You know, I was thinking also about how it might connect to our phone addiction, because we have to spend so much time on screens because where many of us are remote. But what about loneliness.

I think there's definitely something to that. I think, I mean, if you think back, you know, the office sort of used to be the like locusts of you know, a lot of people found kind of relationships, their friendships, you know, after we're happy hours, and so I definitely think that there is an element of you know, it sort of forced you to be there and did you know, force you to engage with people, and so it certainly could be contributing to that.

I think there's definitely something to that. I think, I mean, if you think back, you know, the office sort of used to be the like locusts of you know, a lot of people found kind of relationships, their friendships, you know, after we're happy hours, and so I definitely think that there is an element of you know, it sort of forced you to be there and did you know, force you to engage with people, and so it certainly could be contributing to that.

And yeah, those lunches were expensive, though.

And yeah, those lunches were expensive, though.

They're more expensive than they were Tolliver, that is for sure now. And yet Courtney people don't want to go back to the office. Like if you ask if you were to poll workers, they would probably I bet more than half would say I'd rather keep on working at home.

They're more expensive than they were Tolliver, that is for sure now. And yet Courtney people don't want to go back to the office. Like if you ask if you were to poll workers, they would probably I bet more than half would say I'd rather keep on working at home.

Yeah, I mean, it's really fascinating as we've looked at things. Right when the pandemic started from an urban planning perspective, the notion of third place, third places came to being. And that's not third place ranking. That is the notion of spaces where you go that's not your home and it's not your office, but you go to work, you go to have those serendipitous encounters. So we focused a lot of our energy around parks, around open air patios to create those third places.

Yeah, I mean, it's really fascinating as we've looked at things. Right when the pandemic started from an urban planning perspective, the notion of third place, third places came to being. And that's not third place ranking. That is the notion of spaces where you go that's not your home and it's not your office, but you go to work, you go to have those serendipitous encounters. So we focused a lot of our energy around parks, around open air patios to create those third places.

And guess what people are coming to those?

And guess what people are coming to those?

Right, So it's this fundamental sort of perception of I'm going to the office into my cubicle that I think still has that sort of intimidating factor or negative factor in a lot of psychology, when in fact, so many office redesigns, so many of our cities are building things in a new creative and creative way.

Right, So it's this fundamental sort of perception of I'm going to the office into my cubicle that I think still has that sort of intimidating factor or negative factor in a lot of psychology, when in fact, so many office redesigns, so many of our cities are building things in a new creative and creative way.

By the way, Rose, I know when you're reporting, you're probably moving around, But how often do you actually go into the office these days?

By the way, Rose, I know when you're reporting, you're probably moving around, But how often do you actually go into the office these days?

I go in about four days a week.

I go in about four days a week.

Oh, you still do go doing four days a week? And is it busy at the Atlantic?

Oh, you still do go doing four days a week? And is it busy at the Atlantic?

It is busy, yes, and it's yeah, it's an open office floor plan, so it is nice to and I'm pretty new to the job. I mean, this is something that we were discussing earlier. But you know, when you're when you're younger, it's definitely very helpful to be able to hear more experienced colleagues and learn from them.

It is busy, yes, and it's yeah, it's an open office floor plan, so it is nice to and I'm pretty new to the job. I mean, this is something that we were discussing earlier. But you know, when you're when you're younger, it's definitely very helpful to be able to hear more experienced colleagues and learn from them.

Yeah, we'll toll over. The idea of remote work, of course, did not start during the COVID pandemic.

Yeah, we'll toll over. The idea of remote work, of course, did not start during the COVID pandemic.

Now, they were throwing this idea around back in the seventies. Jeremy, when you were born, listen to.

Now, they were throwing this idea around back in the seventies. Jeremy, when you were born, listen to.

This, So born in the eighties.

This, So born in the eighties.

Okay, go ahead, I know I listened to this nineteen seventy nine clip from a BBC documentary about word processors.

Okay, go ahead, I know I listened to this nineteen seventy nine clip from a BBC documentary about word processors.

Remember those I don't well.

Remember those I don't well.

Linda English works for f International as a computer programmer. She has a modern, well equipped kitchen, two children, and a bubble memory terminal. Linda can write and stare the program she's working on at times most convenient to her, when the children are asleep or at school. When the job is done, the computer's only a phone call away. Linda is in the forefront of perhaps the biggest revolution for working mothers since the pill, the office and the home. I rather like having your cake and eating it.

Linda English works for f International as a computer programmer. She has a modern, well equipped kitchen, two children, and a bubble memory terminal. Linda can write and stare the program she's working on at times most convenient to her, when the children are asleep or at school. When the job is done, the computer's only a phone call away. Linda is in the forefront of perhaps the biggest revolution for working mothers since the pill, the office and the home. I rather like having your cake and eating it.

Since the pill, that would be the birth control pill. It's interesting to think about that in context of a working mother and what work from home means for parents, for spouses. And we've heard that from some callers, but we will hear from more callers coming up in just a minute. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. In this hour, we're asking you, is remote work better than in person work? You can call us at eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three. You can reach out to us at Listen to the middle dot Com. I guess are Atlantic staff writer Rose Horowich and Downtown Denver Partnership CEO Courtney Garrett. And before we go back to the phones, Rose, There has been some reporting that as companies pull people back to the office, some bosses are playing favorites, letting some workers stay remote and telling others they have to come back. What is at stake when it comes to morale and retention.

Since the pill, that would be the birth control pill. It's interesting to think about that in context of a working mother and what work from home means for parents, for spouses. And we've heard that from some callers, but we will hear from more callers coming up in just a minute. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. In this hour, we're asking you, is remote work better than in person work? You can call us at eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three. You can reach out to us at Listen to the middle dot Com. I guess are Atlantic staff writer Rose Horowich and Downtown Denver Partnership CEO Courtney Garrett. And before we go back to the phones, Rose, There has been some reporting that as companies pull people back to the office, some bosses are playing favorites, letting some workers stay remote and telling others they have to come back. What is at stake when it comes to morale and retention.

Well, definitely, studies show that employee morale improves with the option to work hybrid or remote, and so there, you know, seems to be more turnover when bosses try to pull everyone into the office. And so that's a challenge because these companies are all competing for each other with work with each other for workers. So you know, when Amazon went, you know, back to the office five days a week, people were talking about how other companies could try to poach, you know, some of their best employees. And so it's really a question like do you try to discipline some one who's a very high performer and you know, could leave if they'd prefer to just work from home. And the data that we do have suggest that companies are not going to do that, and they'll just let someone work from home if they're doing a good job rather.

Well, definitely, studies show that employee morale improves with the option to work hybrid or remote, and so there, you know, seems to be more turnover when bosses try to pull everyone into the office. And so that's a challenge because these companies are all competing for each other with work with each other for workers. So you know, when Amazon went, you know, back to the office five days a week, people were talking about how other companies could try to poach, you know, some of their best employees. And so it's really a question like do you try to discipline some one who's a very high performer and you know, could leave if they'd prefer to just work from home. And the data that we do have suggest that companies are not going to do that, and they'll just let someone work from home if they're doing a good job rather.

Than lose them. Let's go to the phones. Nathan is in Tampa, Florida. Nathan, Welcome to the middle.

Than lose them. Let's go to the phones. Nathan is in Tampa, Florida. Nathan, Welcome to the middle.

Go ahead, Hey, how's it going to I got to watch my levels. Apparently I'm too loud for radio.

Go ahead, Hey, how's it going to I got to watch my levels. Apparently I'm too loud for radio.

You sound great?

You sound great?

Go ahead, okay, cool cool. I was going to address the loneliness thing.

Go ahead, okay, cool cool. I was going to address the loneliness thing.

Don't worry about that.

Don't worry about that.

Tesla had his best friend was a pigeon, and he just he was all right, so loally to worry about the loneliest thing. But back to my reasons for calling is I worked as a gig worker during you know, the shutdown, when everybody was working at home.

Tesla had his best friend was a pigeon, and he just he was all right, so loally to worry about the loneliest thing. But back to my reasons for calling is I worked as a gig worker during you know, the shutdown, when everybody was working at home.

It was great.

It was great.

Gas prices were lonely, and it wasn't mad driving around because that's how it is in Florida most of the time.

Gas prices were lonely, and it wasn't mad driving around because that's how it is in Florida most of the time.

It was wonderful.

It was wonderful.

So you prefer when people are are not working in the office as a gig worker, as a driver.

So you prefer when people are are not working in the office as a gig worker, as a driver.

Stay home, stay home as you can.

Stay home, stay home as you can.

It's an interesting perspective, Courtney. You know, you're talking about trying to get everybody back in, but somebody like him, they want people to be to be at home, they get more business I guess delivering stuff and taking people around.

It's an interesting perspective, Courtney. You know, you're talking about trying to get everybody back in, but somebody like him, they want people to be to be at home, they get more business I guess delivering stuff and taking people around.

I mean, I guess there's something to be said for a quiet city and the ease in which it makes. But you know that again, it goes back to the overall impact on cities and when you see empty streets and patrons not being able to speak into the gig economy and they Thank goodness during COVID, we were able to adapt and use Uber Eats, indoor Dash, and all of these to support our restaurants because that was one of our greatest challenges as an organization and an industry is the number of small businesses that were lost. So you again extract that population and businesses suffer.

I mean, I guess there's something to be said for a quiet city and the ease in which it makes. But you know that again, it goes back to the overall impact on cities and when you see empty streets and patrons not being able to speak into the gig economy and they Thank goodness during COVID, we were able to adapt and use Uber Eats, indoor Dash, and all of these to support our restaurants because that was one of our greatest challenges as an organization and an industry is the number of small businesses that were lost. So you again extract that population and businesses suffer.

Yeah, let's go to Mike in Houston. Mike, welcome to the middle of your thoughts on remote versus in person.

Yeah, let's go to Mike in Houston. Mike, welcome to the middle of your thoughts on remote versus in person.

You hear me? Okay, yep, minch more just kind of a commentary. And that's funny that she was just speaking to restaurants because I am a X chef that pulled off during the pandemic and I'm actually going to drive through right now.

You hear me? Okay, yep, minch more just kind of a commentary. And that's funny that she was just speaking to restaurants because I am a X chef that pulled off during the pandemic and I'm actually going to drive through right now.

Okay, well focus on us and you make them wait, okay, go.

Okay, well focus on us and you make them wait, okay, go.

Ahead, Yeah, yeah, thank you. I appreciate you do. I'll apologize. It was more so just a commentary on the The mandate to come back to the office is just more or less employers mandating to us that we we do kind of what they asked us to do, which is all finding good. But at some point, I feel like we're going to have to have a serious conversation about what we're employed, what we are offered as employees, whether our job is tied to our insurance, whether we have the ability to work from home, what choices that we actually have. A lot of these decisions seem to be being made really without our input, and I feel like at some point that's going to have to change. I don't know how or when. But it was more so just a commentary about.

Ahead, Yeah, yeah, thank you. I appreciate you do. I'll apologize. It was more so just a commentary on the The mandate to come back to the office is just more or less employers mandating to us that we we do kind of what they asked us to do, which is all finding good. But at some point, I feel like we're going to have to have a serious conversation about what we're employed, what we are offered as employees, whether our job is tied to our insurance, whether we have the ability to work from home, what choices that we actually have. A lot of these decisions seem to be being made really without our input, and I feel like at some point that's going to have to change. I don't know how or when. But it was more so just a commentary about.

Yeah, that's it's a It's a really interesting point, Mike, And I want to say that, you know, the fact that he was going through a drive through is nothing compared to the fact that we had a stripper call in last week.

Yeah, that's it's a It's a really interesting point, Mike, And I want to say that, you know, the fact that he was going through a drive through is nothing compared to the fact that we had a stripper call in last week.

But rush off over somebody and somebody.

But rush off over somebody and somebody.

Who got called over. Okay, but but what about that point rose that companies are making these decisions, and in the case of President Trump, is certainly making this decision without consulting with the workers in the federal government who are now being forced to change their lives and go back to the office.

Who got called over. Okay, but but what about that point rose that companies are making these decisions, and in the case of President Trump, is certainly making this decision without consulting with the workers in the federal government who are now being forced to change their lives and go back to the office.

Well, I think a lot of this because there is such distance, you know, generally between where company leaders are and where the employees are. We're sort of it basically just depends on who has the power at the moment kind of in the broader economy. And so, you know, if it's a very strong job market and you know, employees can can sort of choose where to go, then they're going to be the ones to more of the power. But you know, if they are feeling like they really need to stay where they are, then employers, you know, will will kind of seize that power when you know it's a it's a worse like kind of outlook for employees.

Well, I think a lot of this because there is such distance, you know, generally between where company leaders are and where the employees are. We're sort of it basically just depends on who has the power at the moment kind of in the broader economy. And so, you know, if it's a very strong job market and you know, employees can can sort of choose where to go, then they're going to be the ones to more of the power. But you know, if they are feeling like they really need to stay where they are, then employers, you know, will will kind of seize that power when you know it's a it's a worse like kind of outlook for employees.

Courtney, What do you tell employers when you're saying to them, we want you to come back, we want you to get your workers back in here because it's going to be good for the city. What do you say to them about how they can convince their employees that it's a good idea for them too. Is there a good way to make that case to an employee who doesn't really want to go back into the office.

Courtney, What do you tell employers when you're saying to them, we want you to come back, we want you to get your workers back in here because it's going to be good for the city. What do you say to them about how they can convince their employees that it's a good idea for them too. Is there a good way to make that case to an employee who doesn't really want to go back into the office.

It comes down in our minds to the overall environment. And by no means do we think that this existential sort of banging of our fit to say bring your employees back is necessarily at that extreme going to a be successful and be the right thing to do. But we wholly believe that the environment of a downtown, a thriving downtown, is very conducive to business growth and to overall employee wellbeing. And we hear that and see that time and time again in psychology and overall, just a lot of the return to office studies that we've done so our persuasion and really working with employers just to say we are building an incredible environment that is full and rich with amenities that will make your employees want.

It comes down in our minds to the overall environment. And by no means do we think that this existential sort of banging of our fit to say bring your employees back is necessarily at that extreme going to a be successful and be the right thing to do. But we wholly believe that the environment of a downtown, a thriving downtown, is very conducive to business growth and to overall employee wellbeing. And we hear that and see that time and time again in psychology and overall, just a lot of the return to office studies that we've done so our persuasion and really working with employers just to say we are building an incredible environment that is full and rich with amenities that will make your employees want.

To be here. Teresa is calling from Hudson, Wisconsin. Teresa, what do you think about this?

To be here. Teresa is calling from Hudson, Wisconsin. Teresa, what do you think about this?

I don't think it's my responsibility to go and fund a downtown economy when I barely have the means to fund my own life. I feel like cities should pivot and they should work together instead of mandating people come back into the office, and not every office building is up to date or you know, has all the amenities that costs money that a lot of companies don't have to invest in.