In this third instalment of the Federation series, Colin welcomes Supreme Court Judge David Ashton-Lewis back to the microphone, by popular demand. They start with a listener's question: what came before democracy? The Judge takes us from Roman town squares to the English "Moot", where tribal leaders heard grievances and handed down rulings. He describes a village green near Sheffield where, he says, tribes pledged allegiance to a single king, and he reflects on Stonehenge as a likely gathering place.

The conversation then turns to how Australia's rules can be changed and how quickly. The Judge explains that the Constitution and Acts of Parliament are the mechanism, and why law tends to be reformed after an event rather than during one. They use COVID as an example, along with Section 109 of the Constitution. From there they discuss the cost of pandemic spending, the $369 billion submarine program, and who ends up paying. The Judge also gives his views on immigration and multiculturalism, past prime ministers, nationalism and protest. He closes on respect for people who disagree with us.

It's a wide-ranging, thoughtful chat for anyone who likes a bit of history alongside the big questions about how Australia is governed. The opinions are the Judge's own, and the hosts invite listeners to say if they'd like a Part 4.

Guest(s): Judge David Ashton-Lewis, introduced as a Supreme Court Judge. Host: Colin.

Topics:

• [00:00] Welcome to Federation Part 3; a listener asks "what came before democracy?"; Roman town squares and representative democracy
• [01:04] The Moot: tribal leaders meeting to hear grievances, and a village green near Sheffield tied to the first king of all England
• [03:45] How a Moot settled disputes, using a stolen cow as the example
• [04:33] Stonehenge as a meeting place, and the mystery of how the stones were moved
• [06:09] Early rule by chiefs, and whether there are written rules for changing how Federation works (the Constitution and Acts of Parliament)
• [07:35] Could we respond faster next time, after COVID? Why law is usually changed after an event, and Section 109
• [09:30] Why law moves slowly; the money the government printed during COVID
• [10:48] Why national spending is a federal job, with the $369 billion submarine example
• [11:36] Paying the debt back through taxes and a growing economy; the importance of understanding economics
• [13:42] Defence spending, the Indo-Pacific, and support from both major parties
• [14:29] Immigration, multiculturalism and the economy, including social and cultural impacts
• [15:21] Reflections on prime ministers from Whitlam to Hawke and Keating, and Pauline Hanson's views
• [17:58] The EU, nationalism, and why the Judge says Fabianism and Marxism want to do away with it
• [21:56] Passion, protest and disagreement; disruptive protests and unrest in Europe
• [23:43] Respect and John Stuart Mill's *On Liberty*; the listener call-out for Federation Part 4 and sign-off

Memorable quotes:

• "It's one thing to see words put out in plain English, but it's another thing to understand them and to interpret them." [06:09]
• "Law usually gets created, amended or clarified after an event." [07:35]
• "Too many levers, David." (Colin, on economics) [12:38]
• "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." [23:43]

Mentioned in the interview (people, organisations, events, dates, websites, phone numbers):

• Section 109 of the Constitution (state law is void where inconsistent with federal law)
• The Moot, an early English meeting of tribal leaders. It marks a pledge of allegiance said to date from 827, with Edmund/Edward of the North and South Saxons (names and date as transcribed).
• Stonehenge and its sarsen stones, some said to have come from Wales
• COVID and the government's spending of about $450 billion (also given as $400 billion)
• $369 billion for 13 nuclear attack submarines (a figure of "$396 billion" also appears, probably a mis-hearing)
• Prime ministers and politicians: Gough Whitlam, Malcolm Fraser, Bob Hawke, Paul Keating, Pauline Hanson, Menzies
• John Stuart Mill, *On Liberty*; Karl Marx; Greta Thunberg; Hitler
• Fabianism and Marxism; the European Union; the Monetary Authority of Singapore
• Listener contact: review the episode online at "crb.com" and email "mail at forcrb.com" (as transcribed; please check the exact web and email addresses before publishing)