Golf. Is that they anything in golf that doesn't change, anything that changes the best in playing? Does this man a one time winner on the PGA Tour. The point Alan is he didn't go Hollywood. You need a fourth Well, Michael, this is the point in the programmer. We always tip our caps to our corporate sponsors, Echo who the purveyors a very stylish and comfortable footwear that I know you're a fan of as m I, Um, I feel like you have someone you want to stay here the jump in please you know I actually enjoyed this part against all odds. But you don't want to ask me the question I've tied up for you. Oh yes, you want to discuss laces and laces? Yes, I think part Thank you for reminding me. Um, I think part of a quality product. No matter what the product is, whether it's a Mercedes Benz or or an Echo golf shoe. UM attention to detail is always paid. Our guest today, Sean Foley is from Orlando. Orlando is a longtime home of Arnold Palmer. I dropped Arnold Palmer's name way too often, but also every opportunity I can, and one Arnold's things was before every tournament, put in a new pair of laces, because you don't want to be like Saturday morning in the lace breaks, Like I got a lot of other things in my mind. I really don't want to be putting a new laces. So he put new laces every week. I think that every time. By the way, every time I wear golf shoes, it's only Echo shoes because as were the only shoes I own. Um, but I think of the quality of the Echo lace and the fact that I don't need to change them every week. I don't need to change them ever they seem to I don't know what they've done right, but they do the two things you want. They don't break and they stay tired. Have you had a and I've not died your echo shoes. You've got a different one You've got You've got a wide, flat lace. I've got more of a knotted kind of lace. But it's got a cotton quality to it that holds its grip. If that's the term of the art. I'm inspired by the care and the thought you've put into the laces, and um, I may not share it, but all I know is I put my Echo shoes on. They work, They sticked me to the ground during my incredibly fast swing speed and their comfy and they look good and um so thank you echo back dena fourth Well, Jeff Michael, I'm very excited about our guest today. He is one of the pre eminent swing coaches on the planet. Has taken both a male and female player to world number one. Um, it's not but Harmon or David ledbetter any any guesses, very well groomed individual, I believe. Okay, Yes, that's an excellent guess. Yes, I'm gonna I'm gonna give Jeff the uh there's a trigger or anything for you. Joff so far Canadian mightie, he's Canadian. Yeah. So you guys are good man, you're too good. Alright, Sean Folly, come on down, show what theself the unveilable? Very well, grimpin Dade, look at that. I mean I've been out on I've been out on the course there since about eight am. So and not that we're out of place, it's what you've done with the play. Sean, where are you? I mean Orlando in windermeor Sean, have you ever seen the movie Oh Brother, Where art thou? Yes? With George Clooney and you know the hair paw made is an important part of the plot. So do you used apper Dan as well? What's your product of choice? I'd have to ask my wife what she gets me. I don't even remember the name of it. Okay, we basically do we do. I'm almost halfway to a tour player, Jeff now, because between my manager and my wife actually don't ever have to make a decision or do anything myself. So isn't it Yeah? It is? But it is also when you're in an airport and you don't have to rench your own car, that's kind of embarrassing. So it's well, you're living the dream, Sean. I thought we would start with something easy and low pressure. I want you to tell us what you like most about Jeff Ogilvie's golf swing, and if there's anything you'd want to tinker with the floor is yours? Yeah, I mean it's been a minute since I've seen it. When I used to see it all the time, it was working pretty good. I mean, if you don't like hitting for irons straight up into the sky, um, I think you know when you have great players, like for anybody, I think a lot of guys swing start to they kind of adapt around the surface that players play off of. And so it's like when you come to Florida here and it's super grainy and really sandy, a lot of guys really leaned the shaft hard and trapped the ball. But I think when you go to certain other parts, like a lot of guys from Australia were really good pickers. Now they still play in the wind, but I think a lot of the services that you could grow up on at the good courses in Australia, it's gonna be pretty firm and quick, So I think some of that changed it. But then also know Jeff one of my original friends on the PGA tour, it was Aldge who was Jeff's coach like forever and ever and ever, so you know, he he had a lot of time in his back swing, released the club really nice, kind of emulated his pitching motion around the green and you know where he's known for one of the most famous pitch shots in the history of major championship. But yeah, I'm sure he hated his swing, but I liked his ball flight. And and that's really what it comes down to is that, you know, because of we're human beings, and in our d n A there's fanity based on tribal acceptance and stuff. We're more concerned sometimes about how something looks than how it works. And I definitely in in the past I fell victim to that as a coach, rather than looking at how someone's hitting the ball. So I think, you know, you listen to the commentators say there's a thousand ways of swinging club, there really is not a thousand ways of swinging club. And I think, what there's probably about three different types of profiles. It's just everyone doing it looks so different that it ends up looking different. But I think if you understand that basically, how I try to think about it is that I'm a tailor and I provide, you know, this incredible wool. But how everyone's suit gets made is going to be slightly different. But it doesn't mean that the wolves not identical. So when you look at the dynamics of what made things happen in the swing, as far as the body and then as far as the physics with the club and then the geometry of a flat service hitting around object, everyone's suit looks slightly different, but inherently the dynamics are identical. Very interesting. Uh, you've you've always been shown a very very cerebral person and teacher. What has been your own learning process been like through all these years of teaching. I guess you just keep trying to get down to the root of things UM, and just trying to get down to the root of human movements. So for me, I grew up looking at a lot of videos. I grew up My first coach was in The Golfing Machine UM, which you know has kind of come and gone and come and gone and then came again with bryceon d Shambo UM. But really that was kind of the first book that had any kind of empirical understanding of golf. I was always taught golf the game of feel. It's about rhythm, and it is about that. But you can't really tell a twenty handicap if that's the case, because the reason that world class players have such good rhythm is because the force they're putting into the club and the force they're putting into the ground, they're just so congruent and they serenade one another, so it looks like there's rhythm. Like telling someone who has the face open coming down to finish in balance they're not going to finish in balance because they're gonna put a late torque on the club to close it or use the body to come over the top. So things like rhythm and balance, they're kind of the effects of other things that have happened. So, you know, I never really thought twenty five years ago that I were to sat in the office of so many pH d s when I first started coaching, But it just felt like when I listened to the great coaches in the world and I read all these articles and golf magazines, you know, some said get your elbow like this, and some said get your elbow like this, and some said, you know, make sure your grips like this, or you can't play like this. And if your grips like this, you won't be able to play. And then I used to work at the Canadian Open as a kid. I worked on the range, and so I would was so I was so into it and was so observant that I started looking at a bunch of guys doing things that you weren't allowed to do and be incredibly successful at it. And so it just, you know, it's it's it's it's humanity, right, we fall into this spectrum of indoctrination and domestication and an acceptance. And so you know, like the education system we have, no one is being taught to be free thinkers. It's want to really work for the system if we're just robots, right, and so create this base set of beliefs, live within those beliefs. If we challenge those beliefs, get attacked by everyone who believes it. And so it's not really that much different, is it, Like everything is the same from you know, I mean, look like people like Isaac Newton. I mean he was brandished as crazy until people realize that he was right. So I think, you know, as I've been out on tour, was one of the first people to use a track man all of those things. Um that brought with it its own criticism and using high speed cameras. And I guess at the end of the day, if I go into the e er, I want them to measure what they want to guess, and they will measure it. And so of course the our doctor has a lot of experience and he knows with what I'm telling in my symptoms are it's probably one of three things, but it can also be a thousand things. But within his experience, it's within three. But that doesn't mean that he doesn't have me take an X ray or do an m r I or do a cat scan. So he probably knows the signs of a concussion, but he's also going to check it to make sure that he's that he's correct. So you know, that's the difference now is if you look at the great swings from the fifties, they're still swings like that today. Of course, the technology has changed a little bit um to where the ball launches higher and doesn't spin as much. So obviously when you look at the great players, you know Darwin is right. Their ability to adapt to their environment is just at a higher level than most. Um, So that's maybe slightly different. But how Jack nick, how Jack Nicholas developed power back in the Bay, and how Bryson learned to is no different. It's no difference. So um, camera Champ has the fastest club ed speed, that's because he has the fastest hand speed. When I was a kid, they said if you had fast hips, you'd hit it far. But I teach a bunch of junior golfers whose hips point left of the targeted impact and they don't hit the ball that far because their hands aren't moving that fast. So even even in the deep dive into the science, it still brings us back the back that you know, Jack Nicholas and Tiger Woods when they talk, they talk about their hands and their grip and what they're doing with their hands and arms. So I was being taught to lag the club as much as I could, And I'm listening to Nicholas and Greg Norman at the Canadian Open talk about how they can't release the club early enough from the top, and I'm like, what does that even mean? So there's a big difference between something lagging behind you and then you dragging it behind you. So um, just you know, growing up and then teaching me about this perfect swing plane. Now I'm at the Canadian Open and I'm watching Lee Trevino and Jim Furick and a young Sergio Garcia and I'm like, what is this swing plane people are talking about? I'm not seeing it. So when you dive more into physics, you understand why all those kind of loop under moves ended up being very efficient because you're dealing with a regular momentum. So it's no different than anything in gravity, Like, for example of a water skier is going behind the boat at forty miles an hour and the boats going forty miles an hour. As soon as the boat starts to slow down, in art, the water skier gets thrown outside the wake. So technically you have to get the skier behind the boat. And then we were all told to put the club in front of us, and that ruined a lot of backs and next and a lot of impact positions. So it's uh. I think where Jeff was kind of lucky was that it wasn't it wasn't massively a method um that the guys were being coached. But I think if you look back to that time to to me, you can watch players do the same drills and their swings all look quite a bit different, And then you can watch players do different drills and their swing looking the same, and that's all an indicator that someone doesn't really know what they're doing. Because there's gonna be nuances um in how people move. So when people look at like a Cameron Champ and they're like, man, how does he do that? Cameron is incredibly naturally strong and incredibly naturally mobile. I mean, this guy doesn't work out fretch and he can move into any position the body needs to move in, and a kid who doesn't work out can do twenty two wide grip pull ups without even trying. So what happens is people see what Cameron's doing and they try to match that, but they don't have the understanding below at really how much of a unicorn that he is, and that guys like him are typically in Aussie rules football or US football or you know what I'm saying, they weren't really golfers. So I think when we see these young players today like Joaquin Neeman, Cameron Champ, uh Medo Pereira, Victor Hovlin, they're doing the same things that everyone else is doing. They just have the ability to do some of the things that look different and somehow don't hurt. They're back doing it. So if you're looking, for example, in baseball, you'll you'll see how many how many pitchers in the draft are side arm pictures. Well, no one teaches people how to throw, uh, you know, side arm. But a kid picks up the ball and just starts throwing side arm. Well, in most cases, if you change him to doing this, he's probably gonna be done right. So it's it's unique that he generates a lot of energy from side arm versus from here. The mechanics of this says that the ball will move faster and you'd have more accuracy. But like, I think one of the greatest coaching testaments to coaching ever is Mike Ferett. Like Jim Feret's dad, he just let Jim keep swinging the way that he was swinging. And I think if you look at Jim kind of from rib cage to rib cage, I mean, that's what so many people are trying to emulate, right, being able to bend and rotate and not have to use your hands as much. But I mean, sure just did an incredible job to block everyone out and keep doing Jim. So I think, I think my knowledge has grown so much. But in that like I've never I know more than I ever have, which leads me to believe that I don't really know a whole lot because they keep learning it. So if someone comes to me twenty years ago and they're hitting the ball, well, but I kind of don't like something I'm seeing. I'm still domesticated in my methodology and my belief system, and so I try to make it look more like I think it should. Whereas now if I have a young man or young woman come to me and they hit the ball great and they have no injuries or anything lingering from it, Um, there's so many things to teach them. Like most of these kids don't even understand the importance of breathing and its effect on the nervous system. So they're sitting with sports psychologists who are trying to get them to have better thinking. Where when you play their best, they're clear. So it's not really about better thinking, is it. It's about less thinking? And how can I get to a point where I wind that down? Well, if I learned to breathe properly, um, that I'm able to do that. So the difference is there's a change to the nervous system. So back in the day, for me, that would have been like a positive talk, or have a better attitude on the course, or have a better mindset. But whenever my attitude is good or my mindset is good, I've done nothing to ask for it. I'm just there, like that's just where I'm at. So when I'm in a good mood, I can't put my finger on why I'm in a good mood. People will say well, your players are playing good, you've got a great wife, and you've got great kids, and you've been successful. Well all that ship is true on my worst day. So life is an inside job. It can't come from outside of me. So trying to get these kids now to understand like the answers are already inside of you. It's my job to ask the right questions and if if the kid is as hungry and obsessed, they will come to it. They'll they'll they'll sort it out. But I think the environment has a huge aspect on how people learn to swing the golf club if they're passionate and curious, and then the next step of success is obviously sacrifice. Well, this was the need of fourth podcast. Thank you for listening. Thanks to Sean Foley. I'm just kidding. We're gonna keep going. But that was that was an amazing answer. They touched on so many things. Um, but you know, obviously your your time as a kid as a fan at the Canadian Open was was monumental in your in your journey. And I don't know if this is apocryphal of this is true, but you're at the range of the Canadie Open as a kid and you're watching David Ledbetter work with Nick Faldo, and as the story goes, that's when you decide you want to be a swing coach. And is there a kernel of truth in that tale? Yeah, I mean I think. I don't think I said right then, like I'm going to go and work with a bunch of psychopaths for the rest of my life. But it was, uh um, it was just really cool to see. And then you know, my first coach was Greg mccatton, who's like at the hierarchy of the golf machine. And then I was really lucky that my dad was really careful on who he put me around his men, because he understood, like thirteen or fourteen boys kind of tend to stop listening to their dad. But if you can find like minded other guys, like, for example, my son's personal trainer that he works out with. I mean, if I call him and say, hey, can you talk to him about listening to his mom and being organized, I mean, Quinn's all over it, right. This guy's a god to him. And so my dad just put me around excellent mentors. So I went from the golfing machine the Shaughnessy in Vancouver, where Jack McLaughlin was the was the head throw and Jack McLaughlin was kind of the Western, you know, at the goat of the Canadian PGA on the West and he worked with quite a few tour players, dig Zogl, Laurie Kane, Brent Frank and that's a name from the past year. He's a little older than us Um and Ray Stewart and so I used to sit on a wire basket. But what he would do is he that guys like take their shoes off and hit, you know, two six irons out of the fairway bunker. So I went from angles and planes and all this to now watching someone create, like a completely different experience, and realized that it was really about both. And then when we moved back to Toronto the next year, my dad got me a job fixing divots at the National Golf Club in Woodbridge, which is like probably the hardest, best golf course in Canada. And so Ben was the first Canadian to be a First Team All American in college in New Mexico State, was sponsored onto the PGA tour by Lee Trevino uh and then became a disciple and best friend of George Knudson and Nukeson is like the Hogan of Canada, right. The only difference is he had liked of a sling drawn. Hogan didn't draw it as much, but he didn't even cut it that much either. So, uh, I just was around these guys who had these jobs that looked fantastic. They looked a lot happier than the people who lived in my neighborhood. Um, you know, they were revered and respected. They got to spend the whole day to golf course work with all these great players. So really, from the time I'm like probably fourteen, until I go to college at nineteen, my you know, six months of my year is spent on arrange with tour players, either practicing or watching them practice. So it's like it's a species that I understand very very well. Um, and they were like gods to me, and so I kind of I saw what to do, what not to do, you know. I mean that was the first time as a key to seeing a guy playing his best golf change his equipment and then I'm playing like ship and go on, why did you do that? But um, you know, there's some really good books out there on self sabotage, but I'm not really academically at the point where I can explain it yet, but it's a real thing. Alan, Can I post a question to Jeff that will that I know Sean will be interested in as well. Jeff, when when you got on tour and there's a lot of swing coaches out there, how did you know who you might fit up, who you might match with in a in a good way and how did that process work for you? Wow? I mean I was fortunate, as Sean said, I mean I had Dale from fifteen or sixteen. Um, so I was never really looking. Um, I was a bit. I'm a bit like probably a lot of people showan coaches. Um, we're all quite stubborn, I think. And I knew all the answers, you know, so I kind of linch she was there to confirm my beliefs in my head at least did he know that? Oh yeah, Um, I think that's part of the job in that Sean. But there's a real dichotomy, right because technically I'm not talking about us a human being, but I'm talking about you as a businessman, um and not you. I don't know if you're the best example of this because of you and Lynch, He's like the longevity that you have together. But it's like a job where you have to be incredibly loyal, right, You almost got to put your players ahead of your family when you're trying to really make a name for yourself. But you're historically working with people are incredibly disloyal, So there's always going to be a dichotomy in in the thing. As soon as they think it's not something for them, then they're out and that and that's that's part of it. So I mean, I've watched a lot of coaches lose their mind out there because they just can't accept that it's a business and that it's not personal. Um and unfortunately, we spend a lot of time, well fortunately and unfortunately spend a lot of time around each other. So when it comes time to split up, it's always a bit, you know, it's all it's almost like a breakup in a normal relationship. But I know the players that I can't I've done a good job of I've helped a couple of guys I won't leave names without helped the couple of people build their stables and players on tour from players who called me um and I just didn't think that I would be the right fit for them. Because I think of the end of my career. I won't really look in the mirror and think about how many players I help, but I will think about how many I didn't hurt. And I've done it before one time, and it's a fucking it's an awful feeling. And you know, the thing, this is pretty complex. It's not rocket science, but it's definitely science. And I think today, with the information we have out there and the proof, no one should not know that anymore. And I mean you look in Florida at the top twenty teachers. Most of them are charging, you know, as much money as corporate lawyers are in Manhattan. And then you know, to be that corporate lawyer, you've got to do your undergrad then you've got to go to law school, and then you normally have to junior under someone. So by the time you're making money as a lawyer, your years into your education and a lot of coaches. You know, it's not so much today, but definitely back in the day where players who didn't make it but then just became coaches and um, just just so much opinion. Like when I go to a nutritionist, I don't want that nutritionist opinion on what I should do. I want if there's going to be an opinion at all, it's got to come from experience. And I think that you know, with today's day and age, Like my kids are what fourteen eleven, and they'll say to me like, yeah, man, that's facts, you know, And it's like I never had to say that as a kid because we just we just were under the idea that it was actually a fact. But there's so much a misinformation as far as politically, well, there's this much misinformation. So you know, Instagram and social media is like Gutenberg on steroids, right, I mean this is the printing press to the full extent. So um, there's a lot of good stuff, but then there's a lot of then there's a lot of garbage. And you know, it's just amazing to see the careers and success that people can have when they don't really understand one how humans community to just the processes of the brain. Three, the physics of the club, for the kinetics and physiology of the body. Five what the ball does in the air and based on wind and temperature. Like I work with guys now and I'll say, all right, so it's gonna be fifty two degrees when you play. Do you know how far these are? And they don't know that, And it's like that's so easily measured, and I just think that. Sure, there's guys like Jeff and Tiger or at the highest level they had the they picked up these subconscious nuances in certain things, but not everyone's gonna find that that way, right, Like, for example, if someone is if someone is low and angular acuity, which is a cognitive skill, then they either need a caddy who can read putts, or they need to learn aime point because they can't see shapes in space. So rather than him end up going through four sports psychologists thinking that it's mental he can't see shapes in space, let's start with that first. So those are all things alan that I never thought I was ever going to learn in my life. But it's tricky because look, when people are playing well, when Justin Rose gets the number one, when Tiger Woods wasn't playing good, it didn't matter when Tiger started playing better as he should have because he's just tirer it, although it would matter who was next to him. Then all of a sudden, my inbox and emails are blowing up. Rosie gets the number one. I said, no, like ten people in the next month, Rosie fires me. It's crickets. So I understood a long time ago that I understood a long time ago that I'm only as good as my players are. Whether that's a true whether that is a true indication of my skill and my understanding, it doesn't really matter. That's just the name of the game. So people play well, you have the potentially get busier. People don't play well. It's just it just kind of goes like this, and that's what it is. And I think that that as much as I love it and and love doing it, um, you know, kind of the boring part of love is acceptance. And I have to constantly remind myself, um that I'm here to keep the main thing about the main thing, coach the player. I think I know in my head what's better for the player as far as his treatment of people, how he could eat, how he can sleep and be office phone earlier. But you know, I got a coachoose in front of me without judgment and without prejudice, and it's, uh, it's so challenging. I just I love it. It's impossible as you surely know you know. Link Soul is a clothing and a lifestyle brand. I've been wearing it for at least a decade. It's cool stuff, it's super comfy, and one of the fire Pit loves it. We're believers. If you go to links al dot com and use the promo code fire Pit five, you will get off your purchase. You're welcome, and we're also giving away a two links old gift card per episode. So go to the fire Pit YouTube channel and leave a comment from this episode and say how much you loved it, because surely you're loving it. You're a golf fan. You have to be loving and the winners will be notified and promoted on our Instagram and our Twitter feeds. So get involved. We're trying to have some fun. We also have to pay the bills here at the fire Pit Collective. So back to Ned a fourth. I mean, you're obviously a very progressive guy, Sean Um, and you've lived it. We all know golf has a very conservative streak. Um in the age of Trump and now the Saudi Encroach admitted Um, it's been harder to ignore some of the political overtones to what's happening how do you make peace with with your workplace which a lot of your your colleagues and a lot of probably the players you work with are coming from a very different perspective and life experience. Yeah. Well, I think it's like if you look at understanding, say it's an equation, right, So knowledge plus wisdom equals understanding. So I think if everyone had had my experience that would probably see things so that that reminds me of that, like to point fingers and say you're you're wrong, and you're wrong, and you're wrong. That's not doing anything to bring us closer to one another. Right. So it's like, for example, the drive to survive about the Formula one, Right, I've never seen a Formula one race in my life, didn't even care to my wife and I watched that on Netflix, and now I have like my favorite drivers and I watch every race that I record. So as soon as I finally understood what the thing was, all of a sudden, I was interested in it. So I think that there's not a Palestinian kid, there's not a Palestinian kid in the West Bank who got to his own natural place about Israelis and vice versus. That ship is all taught. It's all taught. There's no three year old in the world. Three year old in the world might not want to share his toy with you. That's because it's in its primate brain and it's not going to do that. But at the end of the day, they're not gonna have any issue with like hatred is taught. Like it's completely taught. So just reminding myself that, um, I think it was Manvela when they asked him a question like this, but on a way a Huger level. Um, he said, it helped him to remind himself that everyone was doing their best from their own level of understanding. So my job ultimately is to try to find a way to say, hey, you know what, what you have to say is not accurate. But telling someone your opinions don't matter versus my facts. I mean, they did a study I don't remember what the school was, but they did a study on conspiracy, on conspiracy theories, and they basically said, if you want to help change someone's idea on something, you almost have to interview them. And so if if if you believe something, Alan and I start screaming at you and saying that's bullshit, that's ridiculous when they have a functional amuri on the region where the thought would be held actually fires at a higher impulse. So all I'm doing by challenging you in the wrong way is I'm just increased senior belief system. Okay, So I think it's I think it's about that. So look, if I was I grew up in Toronto. My dad's Scottish, my mom is Guyanese. I went from Toronto to Delaware, to San fran to l A to Toronto to Vancouver, back to Toronto to Nashville. And in that time we went all over the world. And you know what did Mark Twain say? Right? Travel is the venom to bigotry. So I don't know how I could have ended up with my parents, one what they taught me, and then to the experience and the environments I observed. I don't think I could have ever been like that, even though I think it feels wrong. Like a guy in the neighborhood was talking about this the other day and and he said, you know, people still complain about this and that, but slavery was four hundred years ago. Um, slavery was what four hundred years ago? And any the comment that he made was that's just what people thought then, and I corrected him and said, no, there was actually abolitionists back then to who thought it was really in unique. So, but it's not just an American thing. It's an England thing, it's a France thing, it's in Egypt thing. It's every single empire built its structure off the back of obviously slaves. So it's not just that. But I just think America is such an unbelievable country, uh, in such a fantastic place that we should challenge ourselves to do better. But you know, you get back into just early understanding of the brain. The brain's goal is to survive. It isn't necessarily to thrive. That's the new brain. The old brain is more powerful. So people I want to be accepted by a tribe. So once again we're seeing it with Trump right now, he's kind of on his way out. Guys are starting to go, God, I can't believe he hung out with Kanye West and that other guy. But at one point there was fine people on both sides, and and and but while it was working for the system and the machine, they're like, keep him talking. Now it looks like, oh, ship, he's definitely gonna lose, and so now they're just pushing him out and they're coming a little bit back more to moderate where these crazy things that these human beings were being were saying like crazy stuff, And I don't mean like differing from my opinion. I'm just saying crazy things that actually have no factual relevance whatsoever. Uh. Now where they're coming a little bit back from Psycho And hopefully that's the case, because it's like, none of those guys say anything they believe, They don't believe that. They just know that that's going to get them votes. Because there's a bunch of people out there who didn't really shift with the paradigm. And so, yeah, the jobs their grandfather had was helping them raise a family and put their parents through college. But those jobs don't exist anymore. And that's not because of minorities, that's not because of immigrants, it's not because of any of that's because of globalization. So it's I tried to just educate people as I can, but just have love for everybody, because everyone is just kind of a product of their environment, a product of the books they've read, in a product of their experiences. So I don't think anyone wants to feel like that. It doesn't feel good to have animosity towards someone else. I don't even think it's really that natural. So, you know, just trying to you know, you gotta put your arm around people and and and try and try and help them to see it. But I just have to be an example of of of what it is that I believe, and that's enough. I'm not overly concerned about what other people are thinking about because I mean, I used to watch Peter Jennings as a kid with my dad, and Peter Jennings was reporting the news, and now Anderson Cooper and Tucker Carlson are creating the news. And it's like, if any if I want to listen to anyone create the news, it's gonna be someone like Thomas Friedman. It's not gonna be not gonna be these guys. These guys aren't impressive, um whatsoever. So I'm stuck in the middle where I'm into the truth. So if someone says, you know, on the right, say this, and I'm like, yeah, that's true, I'm for that. If someone on the left says something that's true, then I'm for that. Then I'm looking for the truth. I'm not really looking to be a part of a team or a part of a side. But we need to understand, like so much of our brain compliments that and being accepted due to survival, because if we were kicked out of the tribe a long time ago, we're probably going to go extinct. That part of our brain is still incredibly powerful. I'm sure we have you know, we have phones, we have technological advancements, but emotionally we're not any further ahead in the were in the cave And I think that's pretty obvious if you look at Ukraine, you just look at everything. It's we haven't really evolved um our, emotional intelligence whatsoever. But did they have podcasts back in the caveman days? I think not. We've come, We've made a few strides. Yeah, well this is given mason ability, so the sure this with someone And then there's a podcast probably happening in my neighborhood right now, and everyone's part to que eight on and uh yeah and that's podcast too. Good point may note the extreme beauty oh just disappeared? Did you all note the Jeff can't see it but behind him above his guitar. Jeff, is it possible that there would be a palm tree that would create shade that would be on the on the back wall of your right over your guitar a little while ago that is a blonde. Uh, there would be. It's not a palm trade. We don't have palm trees in Australia, not indigenous to Australia. It's some sort of eucalyptus, I think blowing around in the wind. It's very windy and Melbourne at the moment very neat. Well that's good because you need to dry out those golf courses, don't you. But this is actually this chat's very like when you make Sewan in the locker room ontour. This is where you end up when you're having your coffee in the morning. You stopped talking about, Hey, hitting it, Jeff. This is where we end This is where we end up. Yeah, you're hitting the Jeff. No, no no, no, we end up with we end up in a direction like that. But yeah, it's always fascinating. The best part I think if we get back to golf a little bit, there's swing teachers and there's coaches, and I think in the last thirty minutes we've worked out that Shawn is a coach. Um, he fell he fell in love with the golf swing and like obsesses about the golf swing, but he's more about making people better golfers and better people. Um. And I think that the elite coaches that get to the top the ones you see wandering around the range on tour, other coaches, not the swing teachers. There. Swing teachers in Instagram is for the swing teachers. Like you mentioned, there's not a lot of coaches, you know. Um And yeah, I mean I think not to undermine all the swing talk. I think swing talk is amazing, but I feel like if I swinger like Cameron Champ want one about twenty majors, you know what I mean, there's so much more to it than how you hit the ball and how easy it is for you to hit the ball. I mean, it's it's about playing the game and understand like Sean said about how far the ball goes when it's fifty two degrees. I don't know how far it goes when it's fifty two degrees, but I know when I'm standing there and I feel it, my which is going to go today is not going to go one thirty five because it's a bit cooler this morning. You know, these are just and there's an infinite number of those things in golf, um that just come along as you play and experience if your eyes are open. And I think Shawn's one of those coaches who gets his player's eyes open to all those little things and how they learned to become better players. They might move the club better and Brandon a little that will break it down on the golf channel and say, well, he's shallowing his path a bit more. Jes it doesn't. He used the ground well and he's sitting the ball better now that he's working for shore. But that's probably not why he's really scoring better. He's scoring better because he's viewing golf in a more sort of holistic way. And um, well that's the one thing like you and I will know because we know a lot of the people in the game, and you know you will listen to commentators or the guys after and I know they're just doing their job. That's what their job is. Um is Like a guy will be struggling and they'll be ripping a swing, but you and I both know that his dad's just been diagnosed with leukemia, or this guy's going through a divorce or or or or and so that's just that's just the human element. I mean, I get. The thing is the last few years from Danny Willett to lydia Co kind of started with Tiger Uh, Michael Kim, who's back on tour now, Like these were people were all numbered, Like Michael Kim was number one ranked amateur in the world and made fifteen of his last tour cuts. So because I've been at it for a long time, and then what I've been learning about the brain for the last two years, I've a study everything I can on it. It's really like most of it I can't even understand the words. But Michael Kim was the number one amateur in the world, and he was kind of flatt in his back swing, swung out to the right, flipped it. The word flipped. He flipped it and hit more fairways and more greens than anyone in college. Then got on tour and was convinced like to be a great player, he needed to be able to hit a faith and that was pretty much game over right there. Um, And I think someone like a DJ who came out with a sizeable push draw, like really swung it. He took around fifteen years to become like a good fader of the golf ball, and he took his time with it and took his time with it, and took his time with it. Um Tiger. When we worked, we had a little bit of a faith in Some days he would wake up and he just couldn't fade it, so he would play with what he had and come back and work on it after where so many guys are still trying to fix it on the first five holes. Then they're three over through five and then they go, oh ship and they panic and then they just get back in the survivor mode and shoot like even par I mean, you're in survivor mode off the first teeth. So it's I think that's the tricky part. Is like when I saw Hunter Mayhan for the first time, I've never seen anybody get as opened up as he was in right side ben to the ground so much. But then I watched him hit it and I was like, wow, that's incredible. I mean, Jeff, remember those years where that guy didn't miss. He was the most incredible driver of a golf ball I've ever seen. Now what we know is is for his wedge play, and when he was in the rough that didn't really work as well. So when he got in the rough, we didn't like change his whole swing to make him better in the rough. We'd get closer to it, we'd cut it and take it more upright, like a bunker shot, and chopped down on it. And I think that that, you know, that's kind of what happens to players. They think, well, man, you know, John Rom fades it more a Cow fades it, but I draw it, and you know we need to do that. Well, we're not sure if John Rom or calling more Cow will end up with as many tour wins or majors as Zach Johnson. We don't know that at right. So the Hall of Fame is full of guys who no one would have emulated. But when they came into impact, they weren't doing incredibly different things. Their glutes weren't doing incredibly different things, their tricep wasn't doing incredibly different things. No one had the club in front of them. The club always looked behind them. So it's I think when you have like, the golf swing is quite easy for me. It's just the golfer that's really difficult, and I don't know how to say it better than that. I find the swing is give me ten minutes with anyone who comes to see me, and they will say wow within ten minutes, because it's quite I've been at it forever, and I've been around a lot of smart people, and I made a lot of I sucked up a million times, and so all those kind of cardinal sins that I've created, they're kind of gone. I'm still gonna make mistakes, but most of that just become when I'm lazy and I don't want to be there. So and and players get like that too. I mean, people can't imagine, but guys are on their fourth week in a row. Just trying to keep them like connected to the thing is really important because they're done. The last thing they want to do is see another golf ball. And my buddies that I play men's game with could never understand how you're fortunate enough to have a career like being on the PGA Tour and you wouldn't want to play. But that's because they don't get it yet. They would if they played four weeks in a row on three different continents. Meanwhile, their kids are at home growing up, they're not they're the kids are pissing off their mom. The mom is now upset it dad, And then you've got to go and try to be a psyche like a sociopath and push Some can do it, most can. And so to me, I think when you see a guy doing really, really well, then you look at all the things around them. There's this beautiful kind of coherence where everything fits into place. And unfortunately, because we don't have any control of anything outside of ourselves, and I'm not even sure how much we can control that, to be honest with you, Um, you know, there's a lot of moving parts to success, and many of them we have no real control off. So it's kind of this this kind of like this beautiful symphony of working smart and trusting the people you're around with and just punching the clock and then clocking out and then just waiting and then just waiting. Right. Um, like Jeff is a US Open champion, he is up and Dale was absolutely sick but also one of the best mid iron players of his generation. Had the absolutely fat a seven iron from the middle of the fairway, which he doesn't really do. So there's so many things that go that go into that. Like unless you win by a seven, as you're one putting someone else's three putting. As as you hit it you know, too hard with a chip and it hits the pin and stops. Someone else has hit a better chip and it's left out. There's so many things happening, Like when you look at shot Tracker with the final three groups, it's fascinating, like how much things are moving and changing and moving and changing. So unless you're tired woods and you're winning by seven or eight, Um, if you're winning by one, then there's a lot of things you're went that that went your way. And if you're losing by one, there's a lot of things that went your way as well. But I think at that top level, no one is just that much better than anybody else. Um. I mean how many, how many great golf shots that have ruined guy's careers just came down to the fact that they hit at a second when the win was seventeen, and when the ball was in the middle of his arc, it gusted from seventeen to twenty three, plugged in the front lip and they may double and lost the tournament, and then sat there and thought about how did I lose it? And then the caddie goes, hey, I think this is what I'm seeing. The coach goes, this is what I'm seeing. The next sports sight says, wow, you know he was bullied as a kid, and that's kind of interesting that trauma is really difficult with that. And then next thing, the next thing, you know, the player, the player can't remember what they thought in the first place. And so I'm I'm like, very very incredibly careful of that, and I want to know you don't. You don't teach Jeff Ogilvie or Justin rose Um. You just don't teach them. You teach my mom. She's a twenty handicap. She doesn't know how to do certain things. I think you coached them. And I think it's really difficult for people to see themselves. Like I was with Ben on this morning, and I just made the joke to Ben, like, if I had to talk about your alignment and your club face every single day, every time I had to mention it, if I charge you a thousand dollars, I'd have two grand before the season starts. And he goes, yeah, and if I got tired of paying you you'd have another two under grand because I've went four million, Like like he admitted it. He's like, well, you're here, why would I think so? It's you just have to know. Like other coaches would be like, dude, why do they get like this? And I'm like, I stopped trying to answer that, like within the first two months I was on tour and just accepted it and then just did my job and just dealt with it. Like you know, it's like someone it would be like a lieutenant in the trenchers of World War Two? But why are they shooting at us? It's like, it doesn't matter why they are shooting at us. What is your best Tiger Woods story? I have some really good ones, like and some of them are about kind of him as a person, like how everyone's kind of come to see him now. I saw him quite often like that. It's just he had to put up an incredible an incredible wall, I mean, just a survival mechanism to block everything out, including almost empathy. Sometimes um hm. I think it's a real thing, like especially when you're a goat, like whether you're a Prince or Michael Jackson or Tiger Michael Jordan's or I mean, you know when your yachts called privacy, Like when you've got to spend a hunter million of privacy, that's pretty difficult. That's pretty tripping, right. So I remember Bo Vampelt one time. I love Bo Vampelt by the way, me and me and Bow where he used to such a laser show. And then Mark Cheney was his caddy, and I love Mark Cheney as well, and uh, we're on the range and uh, and I said to a tiger, you're gonna go sign those kids hats and he goes, now, I'm good, I go just go sign our hats. But no big deal, right, And he goes to walk over to sign the hats, and you know, like the the heavy green fences, all of a sudden everyone pushes. Next thing, I know, there's adults on top of kids, and um, tiger looks back at me almost as like told you, and Bob Pelt goes, you know what I love? So what's that? He said? I love being able to make about three point five million dollars a year and not even getting recognized in my own airport. And so that that's a tremendous sacrifice that they pay. And I think, you know, how many people have we seen get to number one and then drop off quite quickly after that because you have to be into that whole thing in order to be able to deal with that, and so I don't think a lot of people I want to do that. So next thing they know, they self sabotage and all of that kind of unwanted stuff and stress goes away because the survivor is protecting the thriver from its own issue. So it's it's like this is occurring, but my best Timer story ever because he's he's quite humble, he doesn't really brag on himself or anything like that. And we're at Acuring in two thousand thirteen and he's already kicked me off the range. When he got back to number one, he said, I want you on the range after the round and Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, but never in my warm up, and I just said, yeah, fine, bro, don't He's like, don't see him personally. I'm like, no, no, I don't, I don't, um no, no, no worries right, like you're good. And so I used to sit with that Rosie and Hunter and O'Hare. I would sit and wait for them or be on the range with him while he was warming up. So at at Firestone, like Jeff knows, there's that wall that separates the putting green from the driving range. So I would just sit on the wall watch him warm up, and uh, he's warming up this day. And two days before that, I showed him a video goes do you like that? And I'm like, I mean, yeah, I like how you're hitting it, and you just won four out of your last six tournaments, so yeah, I like it, um, but I'd like it a little more lined up if you're asking. He goes, well, that's all right because it feels amazing, and I was like, gosh it, it it just got me right like he got. And so I'm sitting on the wall and I'm watching this warm up and it's it's like the next level warm up. But remember I've been seeing a Hunter and Justin Rose and Shawn O'Hare, who are no spring chickens when it comes to warm ups, and so I really know what like a high level is. But his is a bit different because I can see where he's aiming, and he's hitting draws and fades that are all starting equally right and left and landing in the same place and then he hits a couple of long iron just straight up in the air, like a Jeff Ogilvie three iron, and then um, he hits these couple of Stinger three woods and then does whatever he wants with the driver, and he walks up to me and says, you are you're gonna? Are you gonna stick around and watch? And Friday afternoon I leave to come home to be with my family. And I said, dude, this Friday, what do you think I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go to the airport. And he waked at me and said, I think you should stick around. And you never said anything like that ever, and so I'm like, all right, that was weird. So whatever, I get in my car, went to the house in Akron, got my stuff, went to the airport. And you know it's traditional for a Canadian on Friday at two thirty to open his first beer. So that's what happened. And I'm sitting in that little bar there in in in Akron, Canton, and the guy puts the golf on and I go like this, and I look and Tiger's nine under threw turn and so he knew teeing off that he was going to be an absolute It was gonna be an absolute clinic, and then you mean to stick around and watch it. But being five ft six, I couldn't see a single shot. Anyways, if you're gonna coach Tiger, you've got to be about seven. Uh. Chris Koma had the same problem. He's like, how do you see I go? You don't, you can't, but they show every shot on television, so just go video. I'd be in the locker room filming, filming the screen. And it's funny because I've yet to take a video one of my players in contention on my phone that looks like the swing they had just leaving to go to the golf course. There's already there's always the slightly different little nuances to it. But that that's probably for me, is like my coolest Tiger stories. Just not many people can say, Hey, today, I'm gonna shoot fifty nine. Um. I think most of the time when guys do, they're thinking of withdrawing because they're hitting it so ship on the range, so they kind of quit. Called their agent on the way the tea and says they're a net Jets flat flight. You know tonight, next thing, you know, they're ten under their eleven. That's our guests is unique sense of abilities. I know we don't have that much time, but can we try a lightning round? There's there's no rules. There's no rules here in need a fourth. This is a nutty question, and I've wanted to ask you this for a long time. If there had never been rule changes, Tiger is just old enough that he started with wooden woods and a lot of balls and steel chefs. Let's say the rules never changed and that was the equipment he would have played and everybody else would have played too. How many queer majors to date and um and how many wins? Mm hmm yeah. I think also if you add if he never ever got coached, you have to add, right, um, your your your your game, you many rules you like. Well, I'm adding one more thing. I think if we had Strokes gained off the team now one, he would have realized that it wasn't helpful at all to hit more fairways as far as he hit it. So I'm just saying that. So I think we could be in the maybe the mid thirties for majors. Oh so yeah, yeah, go ahead, yeah, yeah, for majors I think the technology it didn't help. It didn't help him. It helped other players get slightly better, which still wasn't good enough to get to him. But he always played with a lot of curve, and as soon as the ball started changing, he couldn't be as creative as he used to be. So, um, yeah I would. I would probably say like mid and probably mid thirties. He would have had way less injuries. Um, why is that? Yeah, I would say mid thirties. Why would he have fewer injuries? Just wouldn't been swinging his harden. No, not really. He used to swing faster when he was a hundred forty pounds and when he was two hunder pounds. I mean Jeff saw it early on. He remembers what it was like. I mean, he was obviously strong and athletic and fast, but I mean you watched nineties seven Masters, like I know that he's weren't as far back as they are now. But longer players were hitting six iron into eleven. He was flipping h wedge onto that onto that green. Oh oh yeah I didn't. Yeah, I've seen last year Cameron Champ hit a gap wedge into two. Uh, we're not very good at hitting it high. But when he tries to did did you see ogil be there to get over the hill? We hit it over the back and barely made five, just saying okay, so look, when you're able to hit it that far, you're not the best at hitting the stricker wedge for the record, Okay, Like you seen, Bolt would not would take a long time to be a good eight hundred runner, because he would come in and say, coach, how was that? I would be like, dude, the first hundred was too fast? Really, I just felt like I wasn't even trying. It's just because he's fast. That's what he is, right, So it's a leopard doesn't have stripes, right, So it takes a lot of work to get, you know, to get better at that. But I think Tiger would have been easily in the in the thirties. I mean the amount of time that he took to change his swing. Um, that took a lot of time off his ability to play well. No, Alan, please part of me, but Johnny, I just will up there. Does it ever come up in his conversation? Does he ever say, Man, if they had never changed the equipment, look what I could have done. I know he's humble by nature, but does it ever come up? He just he will never bitch or complain ever. I've never heard him talk about slow play. I've never heard him anything like that. And I let everyone I know who bitch about every bad club their caddy picks, which is blows my mind that you're a world class player and you think it's seven and he thinks it's six, and you go with him, like, how could anyone know more than you that it's a seven iron? Okay? And so then people on tour will say, well, fall on the sword because you don't want him to lose his confidence, and it's like no, but he's competently making mistake is five times around, so he's confidently still making bodies who gets So I'm I'm I'm kind of Hunter said it the best, Hunter, said Sean. His coaching is he gives you the best hug you've ever got, or kicks you in the balls harder you've ever been kicked. Because look, I'm out there too. I'm out there to make a living, and so I make a percentage of what they earn. And so when I see them have two bad putting weeks and change the putty they've been using for two years. They're going to get murdered on that one, because I've seen that before. So when I've never heard Tiger ever yelled a caddy, I've never heard him ever complain about anything. Nothing. And then he is literally the goat because he took more ownership and responsibility than anyone who's ever played. And then Jack Nicholas is a very close second because I kind of interviewed Jack over launching memorial and he was the one who brought up the idea when I was like, what did you want from a caddy? Because a lot of times I'm the conduit in between the player and the caddy. I gotta talk to both of them after the round. It's amazing. Sometimes it's like, were you guys even together today? Right? And and that just goes to show you, right, Like if you're in a good mood and they say your flight's delayed, you're like, all right, what's my options? If you're in a bad mood and they tell you that they've had to move your seat because someone else had a higher upgrade, you lose your ship and you know what I mean. So it's you've got to know that everyone is seeing things through the lens of where they're at at that moment. So if someone's in a good mood, then yeah, today it was good, felt really good about it, and the caddies sitting there going so it's it's really quite fascinating. Those calls are fascinating. Very rarely are they ever on the same page because we just no one's ever in the same state of mind at the same time. It just constantly keeps keep swelling. Um. But yeah, the the amount of creativity that he had and how he shaped the ball, you know, I say, like it's not a lost art now people being able to hit shots into a right pin. Technology is making it really difficult to get the ball into a right pin by holding it against the wind or fading it up to hold against the wind. Whereas tourable lot as in the early titless professional you can still curve it a lot more So. You caught Tiger at a very unusual time when you guys started working together. I mean it was it was just coming after the you know, the scandal, and he had he was playing the greatest golf that's ever been played, and all of a sudden his life was turned upside down and you've you know, he's been through all the surgeries and injuries in the car accident. I mean, it's been an incredible decade plus. I mean, what have you observed in him is evolution? Um, not as a player, we can see that, but all the other things. And not that you've been working with this whole time. But I know you guys are so close and you still and you're still a close observer of Tiger. I'm mean, just talk about how it all changed once you started working together and where he is now and in this journey. I mean, I can't really I can't really speculate on what he was like before I met him, but I kind of walked into his life at the time when everyone was walking out. Um. And then right when we started working, Hank Caney wrote a book about him called The Big Miss, And so that fucking wasn't easy because then it was like, what separates me from doing the same thing? And I just said, well, just time, you will see in time, I won't write a book about you. Um. If I do, it would be like the things I learned from Tiger, I won't be cripping because I learned about it. I was at that time I was coaching Tiger. He'd teach me all these little things he'd do, and then I'd take him over to Rosie and Hunter and go, hey, this is how he flights it into the wind. They're like, oh man, that's interesting. So they we all got better. We watched him flighted into the wind with no divid and go like, how is he doing that? And it stays so flat? And then he explained it not really in coaching terms. I had to kind of reverse engineer. But um, those boys got a lot of tips from Tiger, whether or not they realize it. Um, yeah, Look, he's a human being, right, And I mean no, he didn't. You want to look at troubled adults and you just have to look at very very rare different childhoods. And you know, we I think that the way Tiger grew up and it was just golf, golf, golf, And I don't even really think that it was really that much a function of earl er. I think his mom told me that he had to finish his homework before he went to the golf course, so he would do his homework during lunch, which made him look anti social. But he just wanted to be at the golf course, he's not antisocial. Um, you know, having thirty people on each hole and probably learning how to be able to get into a bubble and not really focus on anything else. You might look like you're not warm or you're being rude, but the people are being rude are the people who wants him to match what they think a good person does. So that's the difference with him and Phil obviously, right, And as we we've learned about Phil, it is not it's not it's not completely that genuine. My experiences with Phil over sixteen years, Uh, he's blown me away with what he's remembered about my family and things like that. So I think Phil is is in that way my own experience. I don't think that he's a phony. But I also know about all the other stuff too, So I mean, at the end of the day, people are running a business and they're building a brand, and brand is based on image, and image comes from uh, the Greek word I think it's image, which means imagine, which is also a synonym for illusion. So most people's image is just an illusion anyways, right, It's what they're perpetuating for you to see. But we don't really get to sit and have dinner with people and watch how they treat their kids, or how they treat strangers, or how they react to a homeless person. So I think on a PGA tour, because it's such a five minute relationship, Like Jeff was saying, Hey, how you doing a boom boom boom boom boom. It's a five minute talk. So I think as time goes on, like all these relationships are so honeymoon based that everything seems pretty coacher and everything's cool. But once you spend way more time around someone, you start realizing, Okay, I didn't need I didn't see that before. So I just need Tire as a human being who's had a a fantastic but a very difficult life. And h he's succumbed to start him in fame like every other star who's that famous dude? Like they all went, they all ended up kind of in the same place. Right, Um, is there I don't know about MESSI, but is there even a goat who's still married Jack? Jack? Yeah? Right? So, And I don't not sure if that's really a idea of being a goat, But you know, guys get obsessed about this thing, and it's not like that there. They just don't see it. They can't even they don't even understand that it's there. It's just they're so focused all the time on this um and that's the love of their life. And I think that that, I think that that's okay. But when we judge them against a value based, monogamy based society, it's like we pigeonholed people, like this is how you should live. That's how I should live. To live my life in a way that I can look myself in the mirror and I can go to sleep. And you know, if you ask me what success was twenty years ago, it would be you know, big checks and major championships. And now it's kind of come down to like when my head hits the pillow, I fall asleep quick, and then I wake up excited about going about my day. That to me is now success because I've done all that other stuff and that really wasn't where I felt my best. But I feel my best when I'm inspiring people, or when I'm reading or when I'm learning. Um, it doesn't really matter, um what's on the perception as far as trophies and checks and all that so it's all about the climb. It's not really about the summit because I mean, the summit basically is really cold and there's no fucking oxygen there, and nine out of ten climbers die when they go down, not when they go up. So being at the summit's a pretty actually dangerous place to be when you think about it. M Uh, well, I think you've you've inspired and educated us here. But as making notes, we've had appearances from Nelson, Mandela Sir, Isaac Newton, Guttenberg, Twain, Tom Friedman, some ancient Greek to say nothing of Ben Hogan, and a sort of other golfers. But it's it's always fun wrapping out with you, Sean. We even get to talk about hip hop, which I know is really the love of your life. We'll say that for the next one for the sequel. Um, before we let, Before we let um, our steam gets go. Guys, you have any any parting thoughts? Um, it looks shureing you. It's always fun to talk. Um. I feel like I learned every time and I uh my swing is better now. Um, and uh you always make me want to go practice, Like I think, if there's any gift but I think the best gift you have is you make me want to You make me want to go practice, And I think that's true of your players that you work with. Makes me want to go get better. Um, and that might be the most important thing. Mahan was one of the greatest players I've ever seen, and then we stopped and now Hunter has just retired, right it. A lot of things look mental when guys just lose their love for what they do. And you know, love for the game of golf is so necessary, just like love for your kids is so necessary because at the time, if you didn't love your kids, you probably put a pillow over their head because you know they're not appreciative you do all this for them. They so love is literally the key because golf, in like life, is going to be a struggle. So if you don't like, love is basically that like when you fall off the cliff, love is kind of the pillows that, yeah, that that saved you from it. So I think what we look at a lot with players as something mental, I think it's more function in their heart. And so if you can get players to whenever I start with a player, I asked them, like, why golf like why do you play golf? And it's like half the time they're trying to say something they think I want to hear, but a lot of time they actually don't know. And so that's one of my first major tasks is to get them to kind of re recognize why they play because most of us, well all of us, we paid the play as kids and we loved it, and then we got paid to do it and we ended up being miserable from it, and that just doesn't seem right. That just doesn't seem like, like how come I get so much joy when I work with these mini tour players who can't afford to take a lesson with me, And I put two hours of time in and I leave like so gratified and like, man, this is amazing. And then my player finished second in the Masters and I'm depressed for a month. It's like that's not it, Like that's not right. Um. So to me, it's like, you know, keep the main thing about the main thing. So you know, if you want to get in good shape, you gotta work out and do cardio, but you also have to recover and you have to eat right. It's not just one thing. So to me, it's about the love. Like what Jeff's talking about is he's not getting motivated because I can't motivate you. I can't get inside of you. This is not outside in, it's inside out. But you know, is to inspire someone to Look, if you can inspire Michael Kim to want to practice again where it used to be so embarrassing to even hit balls while other people were hitting balls, and you get him out there and and and and he wants to be out there again and do it again. If I give him two years and I'll keep him on the I'll keep him on the right track. I'll put like this. I shouldn't say that i'll keep him off the wrong track. I don't. I don't know what's really right for any other individual on the planet. I know what's right for me, but I know what's wrong for him. If I can keep him from doing that, then if he was a number one ranked the amateur in the world again, we got to have three wins in US in the next two years. I wouldn't work with him if I didn't believe that he could do it. Um, there's the love of it, but there's the business part of it. So if I just worked with all the people that I love that I'm not sure if I can just completely make a living. So it's about having the love for coaching. And that love for coaching was never golf digest rankings and being famous and having nice ship. Um, it wasn't about that. It was like the look on that kid's face. It when he basically this was funny, Jeff, I've never seen anyone to do this before. And I almost pissed myself. He started hitting balls and he's very athletic and he he's won some tournaments last year, so he can play. Um, And I said, man, you've got no need for a three wood. Bro you with with your move long irons and three woods don't even need to be in your bag. And he goes, that's why my three wood is turned upside down. So the three wood was grip grip out. And so I said, well, look, if you can stretch your arms away from you and you can turn more, I think that you have a lot of speeds. So you have a lot of lag. The lag is not the speed. The lag is the function that the arms are moving so fast that the club is lagging for longer. Okay, that's it. That's all it's doing, all right. You can't You can't speed a club up if you don't put a force into it to line up to what's swinging it. So I was like, man, if I can get his hands a little bit more in and get him to turn a little bit more, it will give him more time to release the loft and will be golden. And he hits this three wood. I mean, he couldn't get it off the around and you know, three woods are nasty clubs, Jeff, and he's kind of hitting these low, skanky right shots, and he hits this three one up in the air, and he was just so grateful to realize that he wasn't like an idiot and he didn't have this mental challenge with his three woods. I was like, no, bro, you just don't have time to release it. It ain't really based on the fact that you were picked on in high school, I promise you. And it's not empathy for that, but I mean, you know, there's a lot of people who who survived the Holocaust and went on to do unbelievable things with their life. So don't I appreciate they probably had nightmares for the rest of their life, But You're not stuck in ten years ago unless you put your unless you allow yourself to stay there. So just to look on his face, even though there's no payment at the end of the lesson, man, that's just I love that, and I got to constantly remind myself that that's what I love about it. And it shouldn't matter if it's for a hundred grand or nothing. It should just be that interaction where you showed someone that they were really special. They just didn't know how to get to it. Um. That's really cool for me because I think when you work with somebody like that, you also get to work on yourself because I got all kinds of doubts too about about my skills and where I could be better. I'm just as critical of myself as No one on the Golf channel could criticize me as much as I do. They probably tried, but they're not able to. So it's it's all like a you know, it's just this. You know, my dad calls golf the beautiful struggle, and I think that it's like life. It's perfect that way. It's like it is. It is a beautiful struggle. And you listen to Arnold Palmer you know, his quote was that, uh, golf is deceptively simple and endlessly complicated, and that was his philosophy. He didn't need a mental coach once. Once he understood that as his truth. Then when he was six under through seven, he probably thought, stay sharp here because it's probably about to get difficult. And when he played bad for two weeks grow he wasn't looking for searches or answers because he'd already recognized it was endlessly complicated. So we see a guy who walked around the course, you know, looked like he enjoyed himself, looked like he enjoyed the whole thing, didn't get that upset, got frustrated. But remember frustration is part of success. Like if if you don't get frustrated oftentimes, you're not going to get better. It's just a lying to how frustrated you get. And so here's the guy who knew that it was deceptively simple and it was endlessly complicated. So when it was simple, it was lying to you, and it was typically complicated. So of course he was never surprised when he played bad because he'd already accepted that that was the name of the game. I mean that's was perfect, right, Like, that's just perfect. I love that. Um. All right, Well, so we have a tradition here on Nita for it um. We like to we like to do a little Monday morning quarterbacking of our guests. So, Sean, you've been amazingly generous with your time and your insight and this was an absolute pleasure. You click the little red phone on your screen, you leave, and then we're gonna talk about you like it's high school and it's recessed and we're gonna whisper about you. But I suspect be mostly good things. But so just to get it straight, I'm five six. I'm not five ft four, Okay, so that don't don't. I'm so proud of Messy. I think he's the only goat ever who's five ft six. So way to go Messy. Uh, it's writing itself. But just one last thing. You look at Ronaldo and you look at MESSI. Ronaldo probably should have been a pro golfer, right, and so he wasn't working well with his team at all, and you could tell it. I mean, anymy start him. And then these guys on Argentina are playing a higher level than they've ever played because they are inspired to do this for Messy. I mean, they're wearing the hat with number ten on it, and so they're playing with their hero and they're coming like they're playing at a level that they just haven't really played a historically because of the love they have from Messy and how inspired they are. So it's incredible that when people are inspired what they can do and when people have like you know, I read this book called The Happiness Project, and it made me giggle because one, I don't think happiness is a correlation of success anyways, but nowhere did it talk about purpose or meaning at all, and so I think one of the things that I use in my players, I stole it from Victor Frankel from Man Search for Meaning and obviously chapter one, and anyone who haven't read Man Search for Meaning just please like get it on Amazon for six bucks right now. It's two chapters. But the first chapter for me was life changing, and I use it a lot with people. And you know, he had understood obviously as a psychiatrist who was taken in the concentration as a Jewish prisoner. Imagine being a psychiatrist in a concentration camp. I mean talk about the ultimate environment for learning human behavior and survival. And he talks in the book about you know, so many of the prisoners who should have been dead like a year ago, but what kept them alive was just the image of their wife and their kids. And so they had typhus, they had all these things. They worked through negative twenty days with no shoes on, just incredible torment and suffering, and as soon as they found out that their family had been exterminated, they died within thirty seconds. And I think, you know, you can look at couples have been married for sixty years and either the husband or the wife dies and within a month the other one, who was completely healthy, is dead too. And I think that that speaks to purpose and meetings. So if you can have a purpose that's that big, and normally for human being is it's not ourselves, it's something, it's something else. Um. I think if you live a purpose driven existence, then that's kind of you know, when you're on the high seas and there's a massive storm, you've got two things. You've got a light to let you know you're go in the right direction, and if it gets really bad, you have an anchor and regardless of how the boat feels like it's going, as long as it's anchored in, it's not going to turn over. And then we all have to know that that storm isn't gonna last for two weeks at worst, it's gonna be four or five days. So I think having purpose and meaning and then having love for what you do, it's what allows you to keep going when things get so hard, because when things get going easy, you don't really need I mean, I haven't learned anything on vacation ever in my whole life. Um, but it's you know, when my players are going through it, it's trying to get them to understand like this thing that you're trying, Like this adversity you're going through is literally giving you a PhD if you're willing to accept it and understand it. It's teaching you that you don't understand something. So stop changing drivers, stop changing were just, stop changing putters, stop changing caddies. None of those things are the reason you were ever great anyways, So it's uh, anyways, I'll leave it at that. That's awesome. I love it alright. Well, Sean, thank you again. Always a pleasure. Um, let see you guys, Michael Sean, thanks, Jeff my man. We'll see when the when do we see you again? I'm coming over. I'll be there this year a little bit. You'll say me, next year you're gonna play? Yeah? Where that? Let me? You got any new events coming up? Like what would be your next event over there? Well, we got the sand Belt Invitational UM in Australia. But I'm gonna play pebble. I think maybe maybe I'm gonna try to appay a for you next year. Yeah, we'll say, all right, good, Yeah, we'll see. It's more fun being a golfer. I've tried all these other things as golf is still the best job I've ever had. That's good stuff. Alright boys again, done deal. Well that was some fascinating ship. I mean, Sean Foley is really a unique guy. And you're not even fifty years old. I mean, he's been out there a long time. There's a lot of golf in front of him. Obviously, he's passionate, he's quite intelligent, but I just just love his perspective on everything. I thought that was really cool conversation. Yeah, I enjoyed it. He always he always, as I said, when you go for a coffee on tour um and showing's there in the locker room and you start it's it's like that you end up somewhere completely where you didn't think you were going to be. But when you connect all the dolts, that's actually where it all begins. You know. He does seem to look for the root cause of everything, you know, hitting a draw, but he start ends I've been a concentration camp, but you all I wanted to do was hit to draw with it's upon you know, like it's not fascinating. Yeah, chipping in a locker room setting. Um, what's the percentage Sean talking versus you're talking similar to this podcast? Probably? Um no, no, no, We've had some grade chats uh in rhandalizing stuff. Yeah. We uh. He's a really interesting guy. And there's something about Canadians and Australians must be the Commonwealth thing or something. We there's some sort of weird we just say the world a very similar way, and that's designed with all the Canadians I have a chat to. And he's certainly as I said, he loves a chat and he loves going into it and I like going into it. So he's always been I've always loved bumping into him. That's great, that's great stuff. Well, this has been another unexpected and eclectic need of fourth, which is kind of our mandate. There's a lot of golf podcasts we want to you want to just talk about seven irons, although they are interesting, but um uh, you know, you know what de Vincenzo said about the seven iron and very much relates to this conversation. It is my professor. I love that. My My favorite de Vincenzo bit of advice is to the young sevy. Didn't you know this bit? He says, you must be able to eat any cuisine, you must be able to sleep in any bed, and you must be able to make love to any woman. But not so well she want to follow you. There you go, We're all the youngest spiring golfers out there. Write that down. You're gonna need that. Um anyway, all right, this is needed fourth. We will be back at it again. We have some great guests who we've already taped them. We have others were trying to last Sue, but this is this is an ongoing project. We're having a lot of fun with. Hopefully you are too listening at home. Or in your car, or in the gym. So for Jeff Ogilvie and Michael Bamberger, I'm Alan SCHIPNUK. Thank you for listening and we'll do it again soon. H Oh my god. That is a dangerous group here