Golf. Is that they anything in golf that doesn't change, anything that changes the best in playing? Does this man a one time winner on the PGA Tour? The point, Alan, is he didn't go Hollywood. You Need a Fourth? Well, before we get started with this episode, I will say that our guest is a golf lover who's very adept with musical instrument And have you ever seen those videos of Echo ambassador Eric van Ruin playing the guitar like he can actually shred? Yeah, he's a neat, stylish guy we've had around him for a while. Or having such a beautiful golf swing and be able to play a guitar like that, I'm deeply jealous. And somehow no one can make joggers the cool, but Eric van Ruin does, partly because he's got the right shoes. Echo Footwear, who's a sponsor of this podcast. We love Echo, we love music. Let's get to this Need a Fourth Hello, and welcome back to an other Need a Fourth podcast. This Alan Schipnik my co hosts Jeff Ogilvie and Michael Bamberger. We take turns surprising each other with a mystery guest. Today, Michael has provided said person do you want to Dr Bamberger? Do you wanna give us a few hints about who they might be? Sure? Uh, today's guest is one of the wittiest and most intelligent people I know. He has as Jeff has traveled the world playing golf and carrying a lug of clubs. This guy has traveled the world with the tools of his straight But he only I don't know the answer, but he only travels, probably with about three or four of his instruments. He has logged. He's he's not a likely candidate. That would be an understandment. I was gonna say he's not a likely cannic. Get to every get in the world golf all of him, I would say that ship has sailed. But he is in the rock and roll He is in the rock and roll Hall of Fame. Um, Alan, you may already know. Well, I have an advantage because I know you have habits and your friendships. Uh. If his initials beginning with the T like as in bow, no interest, no interesting, good thought, very good thought, and perhaps for for another day, he shared, now this will be this will be tough for Jeff and easy brown. He shares the initials with an iconic New York Yankee, even though his own baseball tastes run to the Atlanta Braves forming the Milwaukee Braves, but his affection for them, I think is very much sure to say of that he grew up in, which is Georgia is just getting too easy for you? Is this with that baseball player being Mickey Mantle? The baseball player would be Mickey Mantle? I think that that makes her history guest perhaps Mike Mills, but I'd be correct, Yes, our guestory, our mr guests Mr Mike Mills. Uh often from here he is Hey, I love it, Hey guys. Uh. For those who don't know, and most too, Mike Mills is the bassist for for R E. M and Uh a great friend to too many of us who hang around golf courses and Mike and I have logged a lot of time at Augusta National and on various golf courses. And you can see Mike at the Athens Country Club, Uh, applying his other trades. It's sometimes in the woods and Uh, anyway, Mike, it's a great, great pleasure to have you here. Uh, Alan have you met Michael along the way? No, surprisingly not, I know you guys have been friends forever and and Mike is a is an enthusiast. But h or do we have a quick conversation at Augusta once? It's entirely possible that would have be have been on the courser at t Bones, which is my unofficial home. Yeah they're in Augusta. Yeah that, but never spent any quality time, much to my chagrin. But your your legend proceeds you. Thank you for doing this, This is this is great. Well, there's still time we can hang at the next master's and uh, and Mike, you wouldn't know this, but Jeff Jeff is in a hotel. Jeff Ogilvy, an assistant captain on the President's Cup team this year, is in a hotel room. Uh in Tribeca, where I know you've blogged a lot of time. Uh, Mike, Mike is a student of the better hotels. Like he will flat out say to me, this is way above your pay grade. You're never sniffing such and such a hotel. I'm okay with that. But so, Mike, you wouldn't know this, But but Jeff Jeff often does this from home. And there are no there are no nods to his long and distinguished profession in golf. Um, but you do see a an acoustic guitar standing in the corner um of his office, It's actually less. It's actually a Gibson less pole Marchael whoa excellent even better. It looks better than it sounds when I play it. There's fine up there. I'm curious, you know, for for for for Jeff and Mike, is there is a rivalry between the bassist and the guitarist you tube, does one look down upon the other or what? What? What is that dynamic? Like? Well, only a friendly sort of rivalry. I mean we make fun of their little bitty strings. Uh, it's like anybody can play those tiny little things. Takes a man to play big fat bass strings. But no, I mean I love to play guitar too. And and you know, a band of all bass players would be pretty boring. Jeff, Who's who's the most famous musician You've ever jammed with? I haven't. I've jammed with them all on YouTube on my but um, I haven't never jamming. I'm a very private guitarist. I'll be um, we're gonna have a We're gonna have a game of I'd be a probably a twelve handicapped guitar was probably so Mark, what's your golf handicap? We could compare off skills. Uh, let's let's say you're probably a better guitar player than I am a golfer. I'm currently riding about a sixteen seven sixteen seven index. I I just I just don't play, uh consistently enough to keep it down. I got down to fourteen at one point when I was actually hitting it. But um, I'm just you know, I just don't have the time to get out there. If I got out there two or three times a week, I could probably get it back to a fourteen. But it's it's hard to find the time. Mike, what was your first love baseball or golf? And how did you find your way to golf? Uh? Well, baseball, it was my love ever since I was, you know, kid listening to Chipe. I put the little transistor radio under my pillow at night and listened to the Braves, you know, especially when they're you know, they're in the West Division. So I was listening to a lot of West Coast games, which kept me up really late, which probably explains why it was so easy to be a musician because I'm just used to be an up late anyway, Um, golf I got my dad got me into golf, and I was about fourteen. I played for a couple of years and I really loved it. But then, you know, once I went to at to school and got on the road, there was neither time nor money uh to play golf unfortunately. And then later on in the in the musical career, we we managed to have some money and find some time and I was able to play some really cool places on tour. Was there a period where where being a musician who loved golf was not cool? And did did did that that public opinion shift at all? I get uh? And how did your bandmates take your your obsession? Um? Well, my manager and Bill Berry the drummer, and our manager Burtish down so they both played, so we always had uh. You know, it wasn't a complete ostracization. Ostracization for wanting to play golf. You know, golf. Um, you know, back in the back in the eighties when I was playing it, golf had a lot of heavy baggage. It was a very at the time, it was a very elitist sport. Uh. It certainly no longer is, which is great, but it was at the time, and and you got it. And the clothes were just bad. I mean they were bad. There's just no getting around it. The sands of belt pants. Uh you know it was it was all the rage but that but anyway, um so I didn't care. I played it. I loved it. There's just something so satisfying about making well when it happens, making a ball ago where you wanted to go and uh and I loved it and and there are just so many aspects of the game that I really enjoyed. But but and it's come so far since then. I mean, now you know, half the people I know that are musicians are also golfers. There's no stigma to it anymore. And people have found out how meditative it can be if you don't let your temper run away with you. Well said. I should note that Mike is newly and happily married before I tell the following story, because I think it relates to Macrohanish. But Mike and I have a great, great mutual friend, Burt of Sounds, through whom we met uh In about would be would be my guess, uh Alan wants into story. I think he was writing about Macrohanish and he was writing about the rough and Burt picked up on this line years ago. Forever can we get an edit? No? No, no, okay, bheaud He told me, I fucking knew it. I knew it. Burnis don't know. It's not we We didn't speak for it. Burnis told me this story today and he said, make sure you mentioned it to Allen. And I said, well, maybe it'll just come up on its own, So go ahead, Michael, you did that. What was was it Macaronis and Burtis is telling? Or did that come up? You didn't mention the course Alan? Is it Macaronish? Yes? He compared. Alan compared the rough at Macahonish too. I think the thick hair of a supermodel, a wild and Willie supermodel. The next day, I mean to which to which burgers, to which Burnis responded like he would know my my preamble, my preamble to all this is. And I'm not and I'm not asking Mike. Mike, I can either confirm nor deny that, but I can certainly I can certainly imagine it. That's part of it. That's part of being a writer, you know, you have to exact places they can't go otherwise. I was doing a service there. That's what songs are for and what and what articles and books are for. Absolutely. Jeff, of course has been doing this with with alan to Made for a number of months now. And one of the things that comes out when you hear Jeff talked about about golf and professional golf and tournament golf and trying to beat the course and trying to beat the other guy is that it is an odd blend of science and art, which of course it is. And of course being in a band like you are, in mastering an instrument as you have that too, is it's there's a lot of science to the playing of a musical instrument, and of course there's a lot of art too. And I wonder if you've ever given any thought to comparing. Is there some reason why so many musicians are drawn to golf and so many golfers are drawn to music. Do you think there's some connection there between that weird blend of art and science. I would, I would think so. I mean, certainly, when you say it, it becomes clear what those what those parameters are in order to become good at either one you have to understand how to do it. You have to put the work in. You have to know how to play the base or how to play the guitar, and to be your golfer, you have to know how to swing the club, how to hit the club, how to move your body. So all those scientific and technical aspects come into play. But once you've learned that, it's nothing without the imagination and the creativity to do something with it. Um. You know, Alan, I've been reading your book recently about phil and and just you know, that's the paradigm example of of someone who put the work in to learn how to do these things and then had the imagination and creativity to to apply that to whatever situation he put himself in. So, uh that that's in the same for music. I mean, you you can learn how to play guitar, but if you don't have that creative part of your brain, you'll never write a good song. Let's follow up and that what about the competitive side, uh, golfer professional golf first, coming to all different levels of competitiveness. Tiger and Jack Nicholas of course would be at one level, but then you have some you know, real soul type golfers like like Jeff Ogilvie Um, for whom the competition is part of it, but not the defining thing when you think about your own success. Uh, in a really cut throat, tough business, to what degree just competitiveness explain the success of the band? I would? I don't like to think of music as a competitive endeavor. People ask me to judge Battle of the Bands and things like that, and I don't. I don't want to do that because I don't want to say, well, you're the winner and you're the loser. That's that's sort of antithetical to what music is. You know. The guy who sings in the shower to me is a musician, just the same as as somebody who's playing medicine square garden um. But it's I enjoy I enjoy both aspects of it. I'm a very competitive person, but I try not to put that in music. That's why I play a lot of golf, I play a lot of fantasy sports. I'm really competitive and I love beating other people in a non harmed, full manner. And uh and with music, though, with music, everybody should win. You know. It's like when we first got started. Uh, we're back in the early eighties, the music that what was became indie rock was a reaction to the stifled playlists of commercial radio, the the really you know, corporate aspects of everything you heard on the radio, and all the bands that we ran into on these you know circuits that we were creating and they were creating, and all the music we were making to play on this brand new format of college radio. We were all in that together. We were all. You know, there's no it's not a zero sum game. That's the great thing about music. Everybody can win. And you know with golf it isn't is it isn't quite the same. But but that's the difference there is. There is no you don't have to be you don't have to beat somebody to win at music. The songwriting process is always fasting me because you know, Michael I, when we type our stories, we're just alone in our little silos. That there might be some collaboration in the back and with an editor and you might tweak a passage here there, but it's really your own individual creation. But you know, songwriting the alchemy between the words and the music, and you have all these different personalities together in the band and someone has to write the words, but I know there's a lot of tweaking along the way and and the rhythm and the bridges and all that. Like it amazes me, you know. Michael Stipe always seemed like a guy who was a poet at heart and tremendously gifted and possibly little headstrong. Can you speak to just how colplicated is to build a song together as a collaboration. We were really lucky in that aspect of the process because, Uh, Peter and Bill and I would write the music, you know, sometimes alone, sometimes together, Uh, And then we would all af forget together and we'd show everybody what we had and we would work on those songs together. And then Michael would would take a tape home and work on his stuff by himself, or he would sometimes not be at the practice, which he really didn't need to be there, and the three of us would whip these songs into shape and then give him a tape and he would sit there and write that by himself. So we were really fortunate that we had a really nice division of labor um. Fortunately, Michael such a great lyricist that we had. You know, there was very very few occasions where anyone said, I don't like that, you know, please change it or please do this. I mean I can count them on one hand the times that that ever happened. So we were just really lucky that we were all good at what we did, and we all had a, if not an intuitive understanding, certainly a learned understanding of of the process and how it works. Peter's a rock historian. I am to a lesser degree. So we knew all the pitfalls that were built into this, all the problems that could develop, and we tried to head those off at the past. One of the things is Peter said early on, we're going to split the songwriting four ways. Everybody gets equal credit for every song we write. And I said, well, you know, I don't want to do that. I said, if I write a great song, I want everybody to know it. It's not about the me. I just want the credit. So he said, yeah, I get that. He said, I understand that, but but but there there are three things that will break up a band, and money is at the top of the list. And so if you've got one or two guys writing all the songs and getting all the publishing money, and the other guy or two guys or girls. What I have you a using guys as as my reference. Um, then then that causes problems, if not sooner than later. So we just you know, nipped that one in the bud and split it all equally, which is the great one of the greatest decisions we ever made. It actually turned out to be true because we all did, uh contribute to the process. So so let me sure I understand that you guys would write the entire sound to the song, and then Michael would have to channel that energy and that vibe in into the words themselves, and there was not any back and forth. Well, it's I think it's very different than the way most people do it. I think for a lot of especially singer songwriter soloists, but even within bands, a lot of times the words come first and then you try to, uh, you know, build the music around that. But for us, and I think one of the reasons that we were so consistently good, one of the reasons is that we had to like the song when it was just in music. You know, you can have a really mediocre piece of music, but if you put great lyrics and melody to it, you've you've got a song. But what we did is we already had songs that were great in our minds anyway before we ever gave them to Michael, So everything he did to them just added to the quality of the peace, and I think that was certainly one of our strengths. Jeff, what was r EM like in the nineties when you were coming up in Australia? Was did Australians grab I know, I know the band played there eventually. I don't know how early on, but when do you recall becoming aware of the band? Absolutely, we were all right and we're pretty big time. I think Mark went, I don't know how much you saw in Australia, but I think it was a lot. Um. Yeah, I think our charts kind of followed the US, you know, I mean we kind of Australia sort of that mid between the following the English and following the American music, you know what I mean that I am sort of transcended. All of that was a pretty worldwide man from our perspective, it was really big. I'm actually the most part of interested in Mike is why are you a gear junkie? Music like basses and golf? And also, I mean both I think dabbling guitar like I have quite a lot you end up if you really and being fortunate enough that I've had a little bit of money and met some cool people along the way. Um, why don't you start getting into guitars. You can take a pretty big deep dive into the equipment. And I found that the older the guitar, the more fun it was to play. Um. And it's there's a lot of parallels I think with golf clubs too. I think, how how do you feel about guitars? Do you I mean, do you love them? And do you like the older ones better? Do you think technology has taken a soul out of it? Wow? You know you You've hit on a lot of really important topics in that in that one. Uh speech there the yes older sorry college speech, but older, Yes, I like older better. Um. One reason I didn't really become a total gear head and guitar nerds because I just know what a rabbit hole it can be. I mean, once you start getting into you know, gear and guitars, you can just you can just do deep dives for the rest of your life on it and always be searching and always be looking and always be buying more guitars, and and I knew that if I let myself do that, I'd just be trapped forever. And and you know, you've gotta have somewhere to put the dang things anyway, So I tried not to go too far down the rabbit hole. But yeah, I mean, you gotta have you gotta find what works for you. Um, you gotta find what you like. I try to have, like what I shows you up there on the wall. I've got a Gibson s g uh, Gibson less Paul, really nice Fender strap, the Kenny Wayne Shepherd model. I played with Kenny Wayne in some shows, and he's got a great And then there's an Airline three humbucking pickup guitar that, Jeff, you might really enjoy if you've ever checked out an airline guitar. So, um, yeah, your head kind of. But but it's just I just can't retain that much knowledge. So I never went that deep. But I will say something funny about equipment. Um, I've got a full set that I've managed to hold onto of uh, Tommy Armor eight forty two. I think the silver Scots from Michael I probably used them with you sometimes, right, And so I couldn't find my other clubs were in the shop or I couldn't find them, and they still have steel shafts. So I went out to play around with these forty two with steel shafts, and by the fifteenth hole, my wrists were just killing me. I could barely swing the club because those the steel shafts were just killing me. So older is better in a sense. But you've got to embrace the technology because it you know, it'll it'll fend off some pain and certainly give you a little more distance. Talking about the alon, so the alans correct me if I'm wrong. Is the ale on the guitar that Jack Watt might find in the well in might findest but played really well in the watch shops, the red thing? You know it might be because it's certainly I'm looking at mine. It certainly looks like the one he used to play here, you might you might well be right about that. That sounds right, because it certainly sounds like an airline. And there's that great uh. I don't know if you ever watched it. I don't know if guys like you watched this, but guitar junkies do. The that documentary they made it might get loud with Jimmy Page and Jack Watton the edge, I think it was. I have not seen that. Yeah, it's fantastic. Yeah, I mean you're it's probably sort of Uh, it's like a golf magazine for a professional golfer. We don't read golf magazines, and you probably don't watch guitar document I wanted. I don't know. I want to see him. I definitely want to. Jack Watt's got this great quote. He's got this great quote in there, and he says it'd be easy to go out and buy a new less pall or a new stratocaster, but that doesn't really make you a more creative person. He wanted to buy sort of a crappy guitar, so he had to dig the sound out of it. He didn't want the guitar to make his sound. He wanted to sort of an average crappy guittar. For what I understanding, the Airline is kind of a crappy guitar, and he wanted to it. I have to go. I fond it. I think he's a wise man, uh and incredible musician, but he's also very wise. Yeah, it's it's it's it's like, you know, I think the same thing with the golf. It's I'm really glad that that I learned on You know, the technology today is just so astounding. Uh that if you if you start out with that technology, it just makes you think you're better than you are and you don't really You may not put the work in to really get where you want to go with it. So yeah, I I I totally agree with that remark. I love the Airline. No, it's not the best guitar ever made, but if you can figure it out, you can make it sound good. And that's that's where your create creativity comes into play. That's kind of like why pros use blades, right, Jeff, Like you want the feedback. You want to know the missits. You want to know where the sweet spot is. If I hold like a blade three iron and it makes me fearful. Uh, you know, I need the technology. But you know, better players they want less margin for air. I guess it's the same in their guitar. I think the less the less the club helps you, the more you have to get fonder. Yeah. Like, if you want to fix your putting, you're not gonna get a big mallet. You gotta get a bull's on. I went. I found my dad passed away some you know, twenty years ago, but I found he had a is it a Ben Hogan steel shafted one iron? And so I took it to the range and it was just it was like it was I don't know, it was like trying to hit it with an automobile. It was like, it's just nothing worked. I couldn't. I couldn't get it wording the foot off the ground. It hurt my hands, it hurt everything to hit the ball. I was like, holy cow, how did these guys play with these and and you know, devastate the course with these clubs. I couldn't even get the ball, you know, thirty ft down the fairway. Was it was kind of amazing. Have you ruled out the possibility that that's the club that Hogan played until the seventies Second Green and in the nineteen fifty Mike I would I would love to think that, I would true. Was it a one iron? Did he hit There's a debate whether it's a one arned one and a half or two? Uh. Some people think it was a two bent to a one and a half, and some people think it was the other way, but her Wind and Hogan went to their graves, never really settling that very important debate. Wow, that's that's awesome. Yeah, that might have been the club there. I'm sure my dad found it somewhere. It's funny how how mythology makes it a one iron. It sounds so much more impressed than two iron, even though it would be an incredibly hard shot with the two iron back then also, but one iron is just so much more macho. I don't know the old the old joke, if you get caught out on the course in a lightning storm, you hold up a one iron because even God can't hit a one iron. So good I love that. Uh, while we're at it, my gud, do you know the last thing that the drummer said to his bandmates before he was kicked out of the band, see you at the burger king? No, that would be good though. Here's news. Here are some new songs I've been working on. That's cold, Michael, that's that's cold. Well, we're not drummers here, Um, Mike, what Mike, what was your attitude about playing golf on the road when the band was touring? Well, I did it as often as possible, but the longer the tour goes on, the more at a premium sleep becomes so your your days off. I'm not an early riser anyway, so playing on day of show was pretty much out, and on days off it just got to the point where all you wanted to do was sleep in and relax and stay in the hotel room, or maybe we walk around whatever town you were in. But but getting up early. I wish I'd been such a fiend that I would get up at seven o'clock and go play golf. But there's just no way when you do a show the night before and you finished at eleven o'clock and you're completely jacked up and wired, and there's all these fun things to go do there. You know. I was never disciplined enough to go home and go to bed and then get up and play golf. But I did a few times. I got to play some cool play just in Australia. UM played a bit in Perth because we had a we had a I guess we went down there early before the start of the tour and played at uh I don't know the course in Perth, but they had these enormous bats that were like long hanging in the trees next to the okay. And then my favorite part was I, of course, I sliced to drive off off the side of the fairway into a bunch of tree stumps, and I walked over there and as I got close, they started moving, and I was like, what the hell? I had hit my ball into the middle of a group of kangaroo and I'm like, okay, excuse me, guys, excuse me. And they kind of hopped out of the way a little bit. And I walked up to my ball and they were all looking at me like who's this weirdo? And They've left me a little window and I hit out and I said thanks everybody, and I walked back on the course and they just sat there and looked at me like I was from Marks. It was really cool. Jeff, Jeff, where you want to listen to music on your way to the golf course or what was your at you about mixing golf and music? I think they mix. Yeah. I used to listen to it um and I'd get superstitious about the album that I'd be listening to all the music I listened to, because if I played well, I was listening to it all week. It's kind of different now because it's you're just shuffling Spotify or something, so like, I'm not choosing. But back when you had to choose the CD and put it in the the fewick like CD player that we used to drive for the course every day, I pick one for the week, Um, led Zeppelin too or something, and if I played well, and then I'd have to listen to it every single time before every tournament until I've proven that it doesn't work anymore, and then don't have to move on to something else. Um, But it's kind of nice. I missed those days when you would have a CD in the car and you would just do it, would just do laps um radio hit okay, computer did laps in my car for a really long time for some reason. I just couldn't get off that thing, and I just, um, you don't do that anymore. You pick and choose your song. You're almost not finishing songs anymore because you can just get to the next one and your phone is shuffling it for you and it's just picking you whatever you want. I missed those days where I used to put in an album and just have it do laps. In my car for a week. You know it's uh, But yeah, I think it's fantastic, and I've been a bad habit. I don't think it's a great thing for practice. I mean, I know it's a modern thing for the kids to listen to headphones when your partner practice UM, But as an indulgence every now and then, I like to do it because I just practice some great music. Just buy yourself on the range with music in your head is just a Really that's one of my favorite things to do. You think it's it's not a good idea because because then in competition that's taken away from you and and whatever emotions the music and still didn't have been have been robbed in that competitive setting. I think, I mean, I think that there's probably some benefit to sort of keeps your mind active so you don't overthink your technique and stuff. I think that's that could be pretty handy. But I think golf is the game of awareness, and I think you're taking you're dulling. You're completely dulling one of your senses. And I think sound is really related to feel um, and so I think you're sort of you're not using your all your capabilities when you're when you kill one of your senses. I think, um, another, look, it's the modern thing, and I might be wrong. I mean, I know the young kids probably think I'm crazy because they can't practice without headphones, right and I and I see it. A lot of guys on tour like it because it keeps them in a little bubble and no one talks to them. And I mean maybe they don't even have any sound in their mean. Patrick really used to love practicing with headphone practice, I know, what so so no one would talk to him. I think, Um, it's just yeah, it's whatever floats your boat, I guess. But I always found that I didn't get as much out of the practice, but I did enjoy the practice. You know, I could hit balls all day if I was listening to good music, and I would never get bored, you know, But if I take them out, then I'd probably get bored a little quick. I want to go to something else. Did you ever think, Jeff, when you were picking the music about tempo and rhythm? Because to me, I mean, obviously you know, both music and golf are all about tempo and rhythm, and you know, it's like it's like picking the right work music. If it's too fast or too slow, you know, your your body doesn't do what you really wanted to do. And it seems like I might be worried that if you you know, you obviously not playing any death metal when you're trying to put but uh, it seems like something you might have to think about. Like Kevin, Kevin Struelman, I was playing with him at a program right before I hit his ball. The worst day of my life on the golf course. Um, but uh, you know he he keeps a metronome in his head, sometimes musical in terms of his putting tempo, and that really helped me when he told me that, Yeah, hit Kevin Strulman's golf ball. No, it's so, it's so, we're playing. It's a it's a program. It's not it's not it's not real. He's just practicing. I go up to the spotter. I didn't throw him under the bus at the time, but I'm throwing him under the bus now. He pointed at the ball, he said, you got you got two hundred to clear that whatever. Because I outdrove Kevin, I caught the hill and it was twenty yards ahead. So I just assumed that had to be my ball, because surely the pro was yards ahead of me and it looked like my mark on the ball. I didn't look close enough, so the guy the spotter says, okay, this is yours. You got this? So I hit it and Kevin came up. We couldn't find his ball, and I'm like, oh no, you did not just make the cardinal mistake of any pro am ever, so hopefully he's uh here, gives me for it. But boy, I felt lower than a caterpillar's tonails at that moment. That was just bad. As you surely know. You know. Link Soul is a clothing and a lifestyle brand. I've been wearing it for at least a decade. It's cool stuff. It's super comfy. One of the Firepit loves it. We're believers. If you go to linksol dot com and use the promo code fire Pit five, you will get off your purchase. You're welcome, and we're also giving away a two links old gift card per episode. So go to the Firepit YouTube channel and leave a comment from this episode and say how much you loved it, because surely you're loving it. You're a golf fan. You have to be loving this and the winners will be notified and promoted on our Instagram and our Twitter feeds. So get involved. We're trying to have some fun. We also have to pay the bills here at the fire Pit Collective. So back to Nita fourth, if you could have a walk up song to the first t if that was allowed at a tournament and you have to pick one song that it distills your entire essence, what song would that be? I don't know. We thought about that, remember that would I do that at New Orleans? Now don't I? And the Zerich thing? Um? You know what, I don't know. I'll get back to it by the end of this. What do you think what would you walk up to? Well, it would probably be some nineties gangster wrap just to get me in the right frame of mind for competition, but that that might scandalize the crowds at tour events, So I don't know what. I'll give it a little further thought as well. Mike, I wonder if you could talk about alchemy as it relates to a band getting getting together and and Jeff you you can chime in on this too. But they used to say Ben Crunshaw, he couldn't play a course or even a hole that he didn't think it was a well constructed course of course their whole. Jeff was obviously well on his game, you know, playing great golf when you showed up at Wingfoot that year. But I would I would guess when he won the US opened. Uh, but I would guess that if we're a different course and his vibe wasn't exactly the same for it, um, it would have been a different week altogether. I remember, Mike, your forty birthday party. A great Athens band was there, Mike, I'm just blanking on the name, thank you, my love tractor and and uh, I had never heard the band before, just as spectacular acoustic mostly acoustic or maybe all acoustics sound. And I said to Mike, you know, how come you guys you know, both a great musicianship, and you guys made it and these guys didn't. And my part of me, if I don't have this exactly correct, but probably have the mood of it correct. And I think your answer was, you know, when we were coming together as a band, we were all good musicians and we got along well. But we didn't know is that Michael Pipe had charisma when we started playing, you know, for turnity gigs and what other little you know, early shows you had. It was a revelation. Um So, I wonder what role alchemy plays has played in your life Mike as a musician, and Jeff maybe for you as well, to what degree does alchemy play a role of Like you and the caddy, you and the playing partner, you and the golf course, everything just sort of coming together well as far as the band goes, chemistry is everything literally almost literally everything and there you can put four great musicians together, but if they don't have that indefinable thing, uh, then you know, there there there won't be any soul in what they put out. More than likely the fact that that you know, in R. E. M. We fed off each other's strength and strengths and weaknesses. We compensated for for those things. Um we just there was just something that happens when the four of us got together, and it was it was you know, it was magic. It was chemistry. You know, you could use any number of abstract words for it, but that's got to exist for a band to really be successful. There just has to be some energy that occurs only when those people are together, um, and that's what happened with us, and you can feel it sometimes. I mean we went to a friend of ours got married and we all went to the wedding. It was the first time the four of us had been in one place in some years and it was weird. I mean, we stood together and people just sort of backed away because there was this weird like force field around the four of us just standing in the same place. And I've never noticed it quite like that before, but but it was real. So for as far as bands go, yeah, you gotta have it or you're just wasting your time. It's just you for me, the golf for the golf call on your golf course and Cutty a little different, they're probably the same. But um, if it engaged me, I mean, Wingfoot just engaged me like it was just an unbelievable challenge and I just did enjoyed. It captured me from the first the first time, I mean the fifth, the first green up. Wingfoot doesn't capture your attention, then you're not really interested in golf, I don't think, um. And it just the more I get into it, like the old Course, the Master's Royal Melbourne, like those sort of courses. I just love playing because I just love the challenge. It doesn't matter if it's set up easy or hard that week. Um, it's just it asks you to hit more fun golf shots than most other golf courses do. If it asked me to hit really creative good asked me to hit golf shots that weren't sort of we're above and beyond the normal sort of everyday PG two a week, it just captured my attention more. And I think I enjoyed that challenge more and played well. And I think caddies are similar. I played my best with Squirrel, who was my caddy for Alistair. We should call him, but everyone will know him the Squirrel for about ten or twelve years, and I just loved playing golf with him. I just loved playing golf with him on my back. I just enjoyed it. Um. So I think the chemistry in that respect comes from just really enjoying each other's company and just it wasn't golf without him there, you know, I mean, it was uncomfortable. It's just a really good I just enjoyed the experience and loved how he carried and he clearly I guess he enjoyed working for me, and so it worked. I mean, you see it with Tiger and Stevie there for a while, much fun they were having those first few years doing it, and that Michael and Jordan have had their times. But how much fun they look like they're having those great partnerships. Um, I think they might not be explainable. Like Mark says in the band a minute, just all of a sudden, you just get two people or four people or five people or whatever it is together and it's just the summer is greater than the that's greater than the adding up the parts. So I hope you say it, and it's just there's something special there. And I think most of it is just you love you just you just love doing what you do more when they're there, you know, So, Jeff, when I ask you, I mean, it's surely one of the most satisfying things about golf in general, wingfoot in particular. But you know, you never want to put yourself in trouble, but surely being able to be having to create a shot that is not your standard normal shot, having to create a shot and use that shot to get out of the trouble, that has to be one of the most satisfying things about playing a good competitive round of golf, is that, right? I think so? Yeah. I mean because the driver is a driver, right, Um, you sort of just a drive as a driver YDS is a seven on. It doesn't matter really where you are. I mean, obviously the better the course and the tougher it is, you might have to do something special with it. Um, But yeah, it's the shots off to the side. Yeah, the shades of gray, you know, it's the little fly alive slightly into the wind with a short one. It's like a lot trickier than it looks, and you've got to be careful because over the bag is bad and I don't know, it's just all those little infinite bits in between that are the really interesting thing about golf, not the black and white, just the driver up in the middlehead as far as you can. It's much more ah engaging and interesting. I think when you've got a yeah, you just got to level it up. I mean, there's a seven one into the first hole and just a normal basic golf course. It's like that's great yards at lants on a soft grain and stops. But then you get to the first hole at wingfoot or something, and it's seven nine. There's about nine levels on that grain, and if you hit on any one of them except the one that you want to be on, you're going to make a five or six. That's just that's a leveled up challenge. And I think if you're a competitive minded person. I'm not even a competitive minded person, just passionate for the for the sport and the sort of it's not about. There's no master in golf, and it's exactly the same as music. You don't master music. You just want to see how sort of much you can get into it. You know, how good you can, how good you can get at it um and what you can do and can you do anything new? Can you can you have had a better shot here than you did last time. So I don't know. I just find that it's all the area, the shades of gray and golf, to use a cliche, that are the interesting ones. Yeah, and coming up with something. Especially the funnest thing is a tournament golfer, I think is having it be dead and and knowing the announce as a sign you keep this guy's not getting this up and down, and you know the people with the guys in the crowd. They know you're not going to get up and down, but they're actually getting it up and down. Um, coming up with something special, that's one of the most satisfying things. But people don't think you could do something and doing it, um that that's the satisfying thing for me. That's funny because you know, talking about you know, Michael Stipe has that ability to connect with the crowd or whatever, that that star quality is that a lot of singers just don't have, Like I'm wondering, Jeff like, and you've talked about how a lot of golfers, you like, they'd like to show off. They like that that buzz from doing something for the crowd. But what's the other side of that? Are there are there really talented players who because they're introverts and because maybe they're loners or whatever their personality or their their background, they don't connect with the crowd. They don't feel the energy. And do you think that that's something that hurts some talented golfers in a way that it's hard to put your finger on. But when you were talking about, oh, this guy has such a great swing, you should have won more, you know, what was the missing piece. I mean, can it be the personality and they don't enjoy the crowd and the intensity, like as you know a big tournament that that walk from the green to the next tea people are screaming and shouting and then you're on the tea box and they're on top of you. Like, did you think that throws people off? I think there's definitely guys who are uncomfortable with that um side of things, and there's some guys that really lift up. I mean picking I'm a and Polter clearly like thrives. Guys like A and phil Um. They thrive the more people than the more sort of the more they can entertain, the more they sort of go well. But then when you get other ends of the spectrum, successful guys like Hogan, I don't think you really loved the crowd. Didn't you just love the sport? And he just wanted to hit great shots and just didn't understand why he didn't. He couldn't just hit better and better and better and better shots. It wasn't about impressing people phone it was about impressing himself, you know. Um, I think there's multiple different ways to do it. I don't know that if you can work out why some guys make it once some guys don't. You can probably write a better book than your last one, you know, I mean, you'll sell a few more. Um, I'm just gonna up. That's the question forever. And it's like what what makes people successful and what doesn't? I mean, it's it's it's a recipe of so many different ingredients. It's just totally intangible. But that's the fun part, right. I don't know, some guys really get the whole package. Though. Tiger clearly was the best golfer, and he got better when there was more people and the bigger the occasion, and the I mean said he was the same Arnold was clearly better when there was people around, you know. Um. And there's other guys who win small tournaments that never win big tournaments. And then there's guys like Brooks who only win big tournaments. You know, Um. Who is how it all places us together? We're all different. Something works for some gods that doesn't work for others. But it's such a it's such a relatively solitary endeavor. I mean, obviously, you know, you have your coaches and your caddy and everything that gets you to where you're going. Once you're out there, it's you and and all of I guess all of those things come into play. Whether you like the crowd noise, or whether you like that particular course or whatever. It's it's just all those little things. How you handle it, how you channel it to to use it to your advantage rather than letting it get in your kitchen and you know, distracting you. Um. I think golf as much as any other things that you know, maybe tennis is really all about channeling those things and using them to your advantage. And if you can't, you won't win. I think. So do you fund? Do you fund? Do you play better in front of paper? Or do you play better when you buy yourself? Well? As as far as the band goes, the crowd is so important. Um. We would go we would go to places and we'd be tired and hungover and not thrilled to be in this particular place, but the crowd was so glad to have us there that you know, and you know pretty quickly how it's going and you're like, holy cow, these guys are awesome. And then you want to give them the best show possible and they they can lift you up. The crowd can make you a better band. They can also make you crap. Uh. There are a couple of countries that that the audiences are just so dead. We used to Bill Berry and I used to moo at each other on the bad shows because the crowd are just like a bunch of cattle out there. Why are you even here? Um? But but those were you know, yes, absolutely, the crowd is an essential part of of a live show. Oh yeah, you can. You can. You can rock out by yourself and you can rock out at rehearsal and be just amazing. But it's really those are just, you know, means to an end, and the end is playing the show and having having you and the crowd go on a journey together. And then uh and and like Peter said, when it's really all working, it's like walking on water. You literally you can't do anything wrong. Everything you do is exactly the thing you should have done. And some of those nights, I mean, they are just magically. You walk off stage and you're like, holy cow, that's that's the best thing that could ever happen to anyone. Can musicians choke? You know, you talk about athletes choking? Can can have you ever gone on stage and for whatever reason, like you couldn't summon the magic. Yes, absolutely, and you can't really see that coming. I mean you get up there. And sometimes the worst job in rock and roll is a monitor engineer. It's like it's like the drummer for spinal Tap. You know how the drummer for spinal Tap kept exploding and blowing up. Pe bands go through monitor engineers like you go through Kleenex at home, because it's your every every space is different, every song is different, and the monitor engineer has to deal with making you know, where everybody can hear what they need to hear. And some musicians can be really persnicket, to be persnicke about what they want to hear, and it's it's a hard job and if they don't get it right, or if if you know, or for example, like sometimes you'll have a show and some can I say, asshole, some asshole bought the tickets on StubHub for his girlfriend and he didn't want to be there, and he's sitting in the front row like this just board to tears and I've literally leaned over the stage and go, why are you here? Why are you even here? And he's and he's like, what are you talking to me? I said, because you're sucking up my show. You're you're you're sitting out there like a total pole, and it's you know, I can't have fun with you right in front of me looking like a bump on a log. So um. Anyway, Yes, there are a lot of things that can that can take you out of your comfort zone, and sometimes you can rise above it and sometimes you just don't. But the great thing about being in a band is even if you have a bad night, if everybody else has a pretty good night, the crowd will never know, and so you can you can come through it. Okay, Mike, you I'm I know you've played with a lot of well known golfers over the area. Bention Kevin Strielman, I know you played with Davis. I'm quite sure you've played with Fred Couples and maybe Phil Mickelson who has helped you along the way. What have you picked up from these golfers over the years. A sense of my own limitations is the first thing I got. I mean, you know, it's it's like, what was it? Bob Joan said about Nicholas, he plays a game with which we are not familiar. I mean the first time I played with Davis, I was like, Okay, there's this. It doesn't matter what I do out here, because he's not playing the same game. I am it. They're just not even They're barely related. Uh. So you know what you learned is how to maybe how to comport yourself. Uh. You know one thing, Pros for the most part, I never played with Tommy Bolt, but I think for the most part, Pros learned that, you know, you've got to stay within yourself and and stay focused and and don't lose your mind over a bad shot. Um. I think that that's sort of consistency is something that's worth taken home. And I've tried to to to to bring that to my golf game. You know, try to enjoy every shot and if it's bad, then you get to hit another one. Most of the time, have you played with Fred? I have not played with Fred, uh, which is a bummer. He played here in Athens. One of my favorite stories is UH Athletes country Club but used to have these really just cheap plastic white benches on every t and Burnus is playing Fred and playing with Fred about the third hole, Fred looks at that cheap white plastic bench and takes us driver and just taps it two or three times. Didn't say a word, just tapped the bench two or three times and looked at Burnas and they replaced him the next year. Is very Fred is very subtle. He can be very subtle. It's true. How about Phil. Have you played with Phil? I haven't? I keep miss And it's like my good friend Mark Williams plays with Phil and uh and Burgers got to play with Fred. I've I've I've just not been in town a lot of times when these guys are around to play with. I've I've been lucky enough. I played with Justin Leonard. Uh like Kevin of course, and I played with the Davis a few times, and uh, you know, and and I play at Davis's tournament almost every year down at Sea Island, so I get to play with a lot of different pros there, and that's always, you know, and there's something to learn from from all of them. Uh, some more than others. But but I really enjoy watching their approach. Um, we had a great time one year. Uh. The team had just flown back from the Ryder Cup in Ireland. The devastation at the k Club and coach was our pro and he was he was you know, they just spent all of their energy getting wiped out in Ireland and he was kind of sick and and he got out and played with us and was great. I mean he only helped us on one hole. He had an eagle in a car five and the rest of it was us, you know, him and egging it around and we won the tournament and that was super fun. Yeah. But the great thing was us didn't know who I was, so about the fifth hole, sixth holes, somebody cluing him in and and when I was at at earshot, he looked at the other guys in my grooms. Were you assholes just gonna go the whole round without telling me who that guy was? He was? He was not happy, but hey, we had a great time. Good guy. Have you played with Bones? Yeah? Yeah, I played with Bones. Uh. He's he's just one of the best people in the world. But I have gotten to play with Bones. He caddied for me once way back before he was more famous than I am, so uh, that was really super cool. He's a great guy and I hope we get to play against him. Yeah, for those who are listening at home, don't know Bones has Athens Georgia connections as well. What was it like to have with Caddy? For you, that's gonna be a litidating because he's used to seeing some world class called Well, it's it's all like playing with the pros. You just you know, they know, they've all been there. You know. Nobody starts out great, well a few of them do, but most of them have hit. They hit, they hit the shanks, they've they've hit the mud ball, they do the whole thing. And and you know, the thing you learned is could be ready when it's your turn. Don't throw your club, you know, don't curse unless you know the prob really well. And and uh, you know what if you just if you just go with those rules, it's it's it's really cool and really fun. I had kind of an odd, interesting experience this summer. Mike and I were or maybe I just sent Michael Texas, said Christie. And my wife Christie and I had gone to see Bobs s. Gags, who's about seventy eight now, and um, like from the first chord of the show, I mean it was spectacular. Uh, and he had done so much to get himself in such good shape for this uh tour was really like a magical experience. I mentioned it to Mike and Mike said that that that Mike and his wife Jasmine, so I have this right. Mike had just blown not that long ago also to see Bobs gags, uh, which was interesting. But it's interesting how any of us can have connections to these people who are Yeah, I don't know what really roughly the equivalent be, but like like if you if you're my age, and let's say like Burt Yancy. Now Jeff would definitely know the name BURTI Yancy. Mike you may not even know that name, and Alan you may be too young to do Burte y Uh. Just quick show him, Jeff, do you know the name Burt Yancy? Mike does Jeff? Do you? Alan? Do you I know the name? But I couldn't tell you much about it. Like he was a legend. He was you know, he went to West Point and he had a lot of mental struggles, but he had made a total se He was like Boz Gaggs. He was just like this figure who was revered, but you know, not at the Hogan level or even even even close to that. I don't know what I'm saying here. I'm just gonna give up because I'm not really going anywhere with this except for that we except for that, we have attachments to I just you know what triggered It was just attachment that I think that Mike had to boz gags, and I think all four of us have. You know, I can imagine, you know, like you know, Mike and I are basically the same age. Like to see Henry Aaron the Fister Hotel in Milwaukee, I mean, it takes your breath that's Henry are and that's really an exception, but like just takes your breath away. And I would say this is true for all four of us to to be at the stages of a life where we are. We have this appreciation for those who came before us and the artistry that they brought to a pursuit that, as we were saying earlier, is this mix of science and art. It's just neat. It's it's neat for Alan and May both to have. Do you hear Jeff and Mike compare notes on these You know, our thing is difficult too, but we get a lot of other takes at it. Uh, these guys don't. Um. Mike, of course, can move on to the next song. Jeff really can't. He's got to play the foul balls. By the way, Mike, you may know this famously, that's a Trevino line. You know, even God get if if you're playing in a lightning storm, hold up a one arned wide, because even God can't hit a one arm I wonder, but evidently evidently, Mike, your dad could, or maybe that's why you got the club because he couldn't. Who know, well, I figured if he couldn't hit it might have been broken, but uh no it was. But it's a it's a monster. I just don't know how anybody can do it, but people do well. As as we come to the end of this podcast, I will say I saw Bob Dylan at a little venue in Santa Cruz not too long ago, and he sounded great and the band was super tight, and I had this sensation of sitting there like this whole crowd was just completely enraptured, and these these guys are making all these sounds with just their fingertips and and a few vocal cords, and it's kind of magic and how little it takes to make such a big sound. Just like for Jeff, you know, he can he can stand out there in the middle of fairway and he can do something magical just just with his you know, just his own body and a very simple tool in the ball, right. And the thing that you guys share is just like a really unique gift and you know, the rest of us get to enjoy it in such a deep and meaningful way. So it is it does need to bring you, guys, the two of you particular together. Well you know what what what it is. And I guess one of the things that that golf and music do have in common is they can be transcendent. I mean, to watch to watch a player who's just so completely dialed in and uh and just you know he's gonna manail every shot that he takes her in that round. To watch that, it elevates you, It puts you in a better place. And the same thing with going to see a musician or a band who is on fire that night. It lifts you. It takes you out of your life and puts you somewhere else. And uh that the fact that both golf and music can do that might have something to do with why there's so many people that like both of them. That's really really well said. Yeah, I do too, you know, to just to have the opportunity to get lost in something that's way beyond yourself. Um is the nepl I remember when well Sorry to go down rebbel Over, Like when Dwight Gooden was at the height of his powers. You know, my brother and I would go to Shay or whomever, Christine, and I'm going to say, just to watch good and work, you know, and he'd worked through the ninth inning. It was just it was just like, as you say, a magical experience. Alan. This would be true for Allen as well. But I've covered uh, I think fourteen of Tigers Majors and even the boring ones like when he won by fifteen at the US Open at Pebble Beach. Just to watch the man in full, it's such a totally transcendent experience, Christine and I felt that listen to bos guys this summer and or even like a little moment like like a guy not in a violent way at all, but a guy through a shoe in the direction of Michael Stipe one set a show and uh and Michael picked it up and he tossed it back and he just said, you're gonna need this, dude. And it was like, in another context it would be nothing, but in that context, like he had the presence and the confidence to just give the guy a shoe back because he's gonna go home after the show is over. It was just well, and that that's true. I mean, that is that is a certain calm confidence that really pay us off. But don't forget this. Writing is in there too. I mean, if not above, I mean writing takes The reason you guys are successfully what you do is because you take people out of there, you know, whatever space they're in before they start reading your books, and they take you take them to a different place. That's why they read your books, not just to learn things, but but to but to exist in a slightly different realm for as long as they're reading your book and maybe even for some time after. Uh. And And that's why you guys are known, because you're good at it and you can make people feel that way. Well that you're nice to say that, Mike, But there's one name I absolutely have to drop your there's a little bit of a friendship in a connection with our great friend John Garretty and Mike Mills. They share T Bones and the piano together. And if I have the story right, there's been occasions where Garity has maybe played piano, uh in front of Mike come out. Ah, I have that correct. But I'm glad those these are two of the most refined people you could ever meet in your life. Uh. Anyway, I've been called a lot of things, Michael, I'm not sure refined is one of them. But thank you. But yeah, but but guaranty guaranty and I've had a night or two that was that were really fun. What Mike Mills is a T Bones guy? I happened not to be. Alan Goes when his worst to Jeff probably I don't know, Jeff, are you probably not a T Bone guy? I'm guessing no, no, no, no no. But Mike, what's the amusing thing about how you signed in a gust of flag from one of the years, the Tiger one? Well, okay, Uh, First of all, I gotta say that what is funny is that we had T Bone burnette to dinner at T Bones during the Masters a couple of years ago. Um. That was but so no, they they had a they had Tiger's victory flag and and uh, he had signed it in the middle, and all these people who signed around the edges, and they gave it to me to sign, and I don't I don't know what possessed me to do this, but I was like, oh, the hell with it, and I signed in the middle next to Tiger's name, and and I kind of realized later that might not have been the most politic thing to do, but it's it's hanging there. It's still there, t bones with my name right next to Tigers because you know, he couldn't have won it without me, I guess, is the feeling. I do want to say that it's very generous of you to um Mike to talk about our typing. But when people ask me I do for a living, I say, I give people something to read while they're on the throad. So that's you got. You gotta keep it all in perspective, that's a valuable service. I agreed. But you know, one quick shout out, even though he's got mentioned, but this group comes together because Mike and I have share a mutual friend and I know Mike would agree as I'm saying this. People say this occasionally they said, up, my mom, I'm gonna say this of Burdas Burdas Downs, who is the connector between Mike and me. You cannot find a finer person in the world than Burdis sounds, and you will never find anybody who ever has anything negative to say about him, because his starting point is to treat people with fairness and courtesy and respect. Uh So um, he's just one of the great great people in my life. And I want to thank you for publicly here because among a million other things, he made this night possible in a roundabout way, I couldn't agree more. Michael, thanks for saying so that's great. Well, Mike Bills, thank you so much for being here. Uh. We have a little tradition on this podcast. After you leave, we're gonna we have a little Monday morning quarterbacking about your appearance and what we really think about you. So this is our last chance to thank you. And then you hit that little red FU icon and you're gonna disappear and we're going to stay on. But this is a great pleasure. Thank you so much for your time and then your insight. It was really kind of magical to hear you. I haven't thought so much about the connection between golf and music. By the way you guys tease it out, that was really cool. Well you're you're so distracted by the super bottles, the wild and really super moneys, you know. Uh so it's it's been a it's been a total pleasure, guys. I I hope we all get to tee it up someday soon. Sounds good, but a cool dude. I mean, even even just a little studio there was so evocative, you know, like you could if the walls could talk, right, it just looks like that that places has seen a few things, and uh, you know, it's it. It's kind of like golf is like music, right. I mean, all these all these guys were talking about Boss Gags and Mike Mills and Bob Dylan there in their sixties or seventies or eighties are still doing it. It's not unlike no longer. Like when you have a passion and you have a gift, like it doesn't really ever go away. So, I mean, how cool is it that. I don't know how old exactly Mike is, but he's he's been at this for a very long time, but obviously he still he still loves it. You know, Mike, we right about sixty five. Yeah, yeah, See, he's got a great spirit. He's got a youthfulness about him, um, and he's got a joy about in everything that he does. I've you know, I mean, we all have moods, but his general mood is dryful, which is one of the reasons such a pleasure to be with. And he makes friends wherever he goes, all walks the life n chat. I enjoyed it. I can't believe you've never seen the parallels between music and golf, but I think they're the two closest. I think music is about its close, the only other thing that comes close to golf. You asked me timeless, Um, not neither of them a master able. You know, universal appeal all around the world. But I've got no soul, Jeff, so no, but Sam Sam snead. Jeff said that to me, I met sneed. Whenever I met sneed, uh sneed. You may know this job. He could play any instrument by ere. You give him a ban joe, you can give him a bongo drum. You know, uh, two interesting instruments that well, it's it is West Virginia Manja somehow right. This has been another episode of need to Fourth. Thank you for tuning in. We will keep, We'll keep, the guests coming surprises, A wait for Jeff Ogilvie and Michael Bamberger. I'm allen shipneck. This was needed fourth. Thanks for listening. That's all mm hm, oh my god. It's a dangerous crew here